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By | June 13, 2010 154 Comments

What can we learn from Joran van der Sloot a sociopath?

Geraldo Rivera provided his analysis of the ”¦ Natalee Holloway disappearance case. Prime suspect Joran Van Der Sloot has given a series of interviews proclaiming his total innocence. “The lie that he has fastened on,” Rivera pronounced, “is that he took her on the beach but didn’t have sex because he didn’t have a condom, then left her on the there. It’s at odds with the story he told earlier, but as he tells this story he becomes more confident and more glib. I believe there is a pathological aspect to this man.” The Factor concurred that Van Der Sloot seems psychologically unbalanced. “I can’t figure out why he wants do these interviews because he comes off as a sociopath. If he makes one slip-up he’s done. It looks to me like he’s a danger junkie – he likes this cat-and-mouse game, it’s exciting to him” (source)

Does it matter whether or not Joran van der Sloot is a sociopath/psychopath? Why not just be satisfied that he is a “criminal” and an evil person?

Yes, it does matter, because when dealing with a sociopath the usual rules of human interaction do not apply. Anyone who treats a sociopath as they would a non-disordered person is likely to get burned and to be implicated in the evil that sociopath does. Joran van der Sloot’s story illustrates this principle.

Joran’s father, Paulus, was an attorney many believed knew the truth about what happened to Natalie Halloway, the first young woman Joran was accused of murdering. Paulus strongly supported his son after the murder accusations first arose, and was even charged himself as an accessory after the fact, though the charges were dropped.

Paulus van der Sloot died of a sudden cardiac death last February and so did not live to see the result of his enabling of his son. Joran’s mother, Anita, is now alone to deal with the repercussions of the family’s enabling.

The lesson to be learned is that if you have a family member who has been charged with a serious crime, and that family member has psychopathic personality traits, or is diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder, DO NOT HELP THAT PERSON IN ANY WAY.

Over and over again, we have said on this website that sociopaths are able to do evil in a large part because they are enabled by family members and various governmental agencies- including the judicial system and law enforcement. Well, law enforcement does it again.

It turns out that the FBI wired Joran $25,000 as part of a “sting” operation, as they were trying to arrest him for shaking down Natalie Halloway’s parents. According to former agent Paul Lindsay, “the FBI formula for extortion stings is, “set ’em up, pay ’em off, get ’em to talk, never let them leave the room without handcuffs on.” Because the FBI did not understand the psychology of their suspect, they let him leave the room and were out smarted by a sociopath.

The lesson to be learned here is that next time the FBI wants to sting a sociopath they should contact Lovefraud so that Donna and I can tell them not to give a sociopath any money”¦ that is unless they want the sociopath to use the money to kill someone.

One more lesson to be learned from the van der Sloot case is that media psychiatrists should stop confusing people with their false categorical statements. I came across this analysis of van der Sloot by psychiatrist Keith Ablow (who I have criticized before):

“Serial killers whether organized or disorganized are always made, never born. Having interviewed dozens of killers myself, I can tell you that it turns out that evil never appears ”˜out of the womb’.”

Well, I knew Rodney Alcala, and I can tell you that he was born with a disposition to become a serial killer that was present in his early childhood. Serial killers are both born and made. Evil is in the genes of some people but like many other traits it needs the right soil to take root and blossom.


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one/joy_step_at_a_time

i tried to click through to some of the videos on the blog with no success.
here’s a direct link to videos with Geraldo Rivera.
http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/4235610/geraldo-rivera-on-joran-van-der-sloots-arrest/?playlist_id=87185
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbmYTncbwmA

Geraldo knows about sociopaths. He is a media resource for *us*, then.

and how does the FBI not freaking get it? this is hard to understand…the FBI?! aren’t bad guys their business?! this is hard to comprehend. don’t they consider ppathy with every murderer?

rveria: ‘It’s at odds with the story he told earlier, but as he tells this story he becomes more confident and more glib. ‘ the night the spath resurrected her boy character for me – i listened as she tried to find a story i would accept. i didn’t accept any of them, BUT SHE FOUND ONE SHE FASTENED ON TO, AND I COULD HEAR HER CONFIDENCE INCREASE BY THE MOMENT – ’cause she had a new good story. glib. f*****. dangerous.

Ox Drover

Dear Liane,

I think “Dr. A-BLOW” is very well named, and being an “expert” and on camera tends to bring out the messiah (my word is gospel) in many people, and apparently in him as well.

Though I don’t particularly like Geraldo, in this case I think he is more rigtht on in his assessment than the FBI.

As far as ENABLING the criminal psychopaths, I’M THE POSTER QUEEN OF ENABLING MY PSYCHOPATHIC SON, I’m the POSTER QUEEN FOR DENIAL of how EVIL he is and I can vouch for the fact that NOTHING BUT PAIN AND MORE EVIL COMES OUT OF ATTEMPTS TO HELP THEM.

And it doesn’t matter if it is enabling someone to have fresh clothes to wear to work or school because YOU pick pick them up off the floor and do them and hang them in the person’s closet because they can’t be bothered. ENABLING others is not only abusing ourselves, but it is DISABNLING the need for the other to take responsibility for their own lives.

When we enable a “normal” person we don’t do them any favors, but when we ENABLE A PSYCHOPATH we all ow their EVIL TO SPREAD uninhibited.

I was rather suprised that Joran confessed in Peru, but on the other hand, I imagine their questioning techniques might have been somewhat harsher than Aruba, but at the same time too, it might have been in his best interests to confess and possibly get a better prison situation. I’ve read where Peru has some of the most harsh prisons on the earth.

In the secretly taped videos in the car where he was “dancing around” the murder in Aruba sort of bragging, but Not QUITE admitting he did it, he seemed to ENJOY talking about the murder and the fact that he was not in custody for it. The two brothers that apparently helped him dump the body just seemed to me to be dupes (maybe well paid by Joran’s father as well) As for Joran’ls mother, who knows, she may be another victim. It is also possible that Joran’s father was not only an enabler but the genetic link for Joran’s psychopathy. With some psychopaths the “success” of their kids (that reflects on them) is important so they would protect that kid from exposure as a killer or whatever. There are lots of ways I can see that THAT CAN OF WORMS could be tangled up.

Or possibly, Joran’s father, like other truly loving fathers I have known, who have protected their sons from the consequences of terrible crimes, have been deeply enough in denial to really believe that “junior” is not guilty.

In my own case, at first I was in denial, then even when I realized it was true that my son was a killer, I convinced myself that he had repented of that and would never behave that way again. I WANTED SO TO BELIEVE IT, SO I BELIEVED IT. The power of denial is infinite sometimes.

You are so right Liane, ENABLING a psychopath is going to backfire in ways we can’t even imagine. I do however, say that enabling ANYONE also can’t have lasting positive results.

Thanks for this insightful article.

Rosa

I have been following the Joran Van Der Sloot case, and I am both stunned and disgusted at the ignorant, inaccurate, and reckless statements the so called “media experts” are making about personality disorders, i.e. psychopathy.

More than once, I have heard the comment that people are not born evil.
We are all blank canvases when we are born. Not true!!

I have even heard a criminologist on Nancy Grace say that childhood abuse & trauma has NOTHING to do with whether a person becomes a psychopath. Another ignorant statment that flies in the face of EVERYTHING I’ve read, especially when there is no genetic component as these experts believe.
She goes on to say that a person can become a psychopath in their adulthood. And it can come seemingly out of nowhere….like a unicorn I guess. I found this statement over-the-top ridiculous and reckless.
This criminologist seemed to embrace the theory that teenagers are becoming psychopaths because they believe they can do anything, via what they see in the media.
They all want to be famous, so they become narcissistic psychopaths. That’s another reckless statement, as far as I am concerned.

How are the average citizens supposed to understand this personality disorder when the experts cannot even understand it?
The misinformation being put out there by so called “experts” is staggering.

Then, we have defense attorneys like Joe Tacopina, who defended Joran Van Der Sloot in the Natalie Holloway case. And, even after this most recent murder, Tacopina STILL claimed that the evidence did not prove Van Der Sloot was guilty of murdering Stephany Flores in Peru!!!

Tacopina has got egg all over his face now, because Van Der Sloot confessed to the murder of Stephany Flores.
And we all know he is probably responsible for Natalie Holloway’s death as well.

Stephany Flores was murdered 5 years TO THE DAY of Natalie Holloway’s disappearance in Aruba. Van Der Sloot was also able to flee Peru and get into Chile with the help of 2 brothers (Not the Kalpo brothers), but you can see all of the creepy parallels.
The casino in Peru where Van Der Sloot and Flores were seen gambling together knew they had a possible killer in their establishment, because they were notified by the authorites, according to Fox News.
It is tragic that Van Der Sloot was able to lure Flores up to his hotel room, and then kill her.
It just seems like something that should have been prevented, in my opinion.
But, psychopaths are so slippery.

I think they should start looking into other places Van Der Sloot has travelled, and see if there are any other young women missing/killed.

ErinBrock

There was some talkin the news about 2 girls missing when Sloot was in Bogota that they are looking into.

This will get interesting in the media, now that at least the ‘words’ are coming into play.
I think we will see more and more of it as time goes bye.

Ox Drover

You know it is kind of creepy that you can’t go to a Wal Mart and buy anything, or walk through the parking lot and not be VIDEO taped. Even if you pay cash, they can tell you what you bought. Remember that Anthony case?

If you leave the inside of your house YOU ARE ON CANDID CAMERA, but at the same time, if it weren’t for the “caught on camera” angle of Joran this time, they night not have caught him on this girl’s murder!

I can go on the Internet and see a photo of my drive way and my road beside the farm as you “drive” along, I can also go to an aerial view of my place (but actually that one is probably 6 or more years old because I can tell by where the airplanes are parked and which ones they are) so not sure how often these things are updated. But still kind of spooky. If someone were STALKING ME and wanted to know how to get around my place the easiest they could do it from the safety of their computer screen and not have to tramp through the woods.

As far as Joran and more killings in the 5 years between Natalie and the latest ones, I would BET there are one or more in there. He LIKES it too much and is toooooo arrogant!

I think his ARROGANCE, like actually “losing it” and killing her in his room, knowing she would eventually be FOUND there and connected to him, but figuring he woujld be BACK IN ARUBA by then so what-the-hey, he’d get accused but he would be legally safe! He’s be back where no one could touch him for the killing in Peru. I see my P son in Joran, though they do not look alike but just the ARROGANCE of believing they can get away with ANYTHING and don’t even have to make much effort to cover it up!

kim frederick

This is off topic of Vanderspath,but on topic of parental denial/enabling and nature vs nurture…widespread social ignorance, etc. etc. etc.

Not a huge fan ofthe Dr. Phill show, but happened to watch last week when a mother and grandmother of a ten year old asked DP for help.

This kid cut open his goldfish at age three, went on to microwave a guinna pig, throw a gerbal against a wall, and kill two pet mice….Mom still had a beloved cat in the house, and grandma kept giving the kid his little pets…come ooooon, people? WTF?

They had had the kid in therapy for years…He had by this time pushed his grandma down the stairs, had tried to push his mother, had made the comment he could come into her room at night when she was asleep and stab her, and had lit the house on fire.

Dr. Phill talked to the kid for about five minutes, asking him how he felt when he killed the small animals and he said he liked it.

DP told them to get the cat out of the house immediatly. He commented on the kids charm and intelligence, and mentioned that he had a certain facade he put on to face the Dr. He said he is dangerous and in a few years will probably kill a human…never said psychopath. Mother seemed astounded that she couldn’t keep the cat, and grandma was saddened that kid couldn’t come to visit as she too had a cat, and two dogs. Sheeeesh.

ErinBrock

And if you come to my house, or enter my subdivision…..SMILE….your on camera!

There are camera’s everywhere and STILL we can’t catch a criminal…..
Ya know why…..cause the laws protect their privacy.

kim frederick

Yes, Oxy I agree its creapy…it’s big brother, and not all big brothers are good, some are psychopaths themselves…but I suppose that this is the point that we’ve arrived at…those eyes save lives, or at least I’d like to think they do!
Towanda, to you on the letters sent on you behalf regarding P sons prison record. YEAH!

ErinBrock

I saw that Kim.
DP also recommended inpatient/institutionalizing him…..
He gave them 2 options…..intnese therapy OR institutionalizing him.
The Mother and Gmother were shocked and didn’t seem like an ooption of the 2nd…..so DP then suggested they try plan A first and ‘see’.

I can understand this parental denial…..we ALL want our kids to be the best they can…..and when they are monsters……we still think they can ‘pull out of it’…..
Sometimes there is just NO HOPE. And that conclusion, I would think, as a parent would be the last straw.
We are taught…..there is ALWAYS hope…..keep trying, keep helping…..

It’s the final conclusion that is hard to draw…..NO HOPE.

It scares the begeebers out of me really.

kim frederick

I agree with you, on the hope thing, especially when it’s your child, but, it’s creepy that they keep enabling this kid to kill his pets…reminds me of, “People of the Lie” by M> Scott Peck, like it’s evil masqerading as concern.

I have compassion for their dillemna, however…just wonder how they could delude themselves to the point of letting so many helpless creatures die at his hands. Wow.

bulletproof

I absolutely cannot stand cruelty to animals, it’s the biggest red flag in a child…wake up wake up and end the suffering of animals…all animals on the planet deserve respect, acceptance and compassion. To every poorly treated animal, forgive us we are retarded in certain areas, we cover up, deny and pretend everything is fine…and continue to treat you like shit, so that when a psychopath kills one of you, nothing is done!!!!!

“even a small mouse has anger” tribe unknown

as for the murdering sociopath entertaining himself at the expense of those women? it’s a disgrace. it’s a circus he gets to perform in. My heart goes out to the women whos lives he STOLE, that’s where my energy is and that is where it stays…it’s back to the same old one step forward 3 steps back….

kim frederick

And maybe this was not so far off topic, because Vandrsloots father might be guilty of the same thing.

I would be very intriuged to know what kind of signs he might have displayed as a child…any history. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is something…

Three danger signs in kids that signal future serial killers: cruelty to anuimals, bed-wetting, and setting fires. Not so much if only one of these is present, but if you have all three, get help as soon as possible.

bluejay

Rosa,

I get tired of all the talking heads on t.v., giving their “expert” opinions, some of it helpful and some of it b.s. In fact, I get sick of watching the news, seeing all those slick people, giving out the news. Thus, I really don’t watch much t.v. – too much information thrown at you. The only news show that I really enjoy is the Today Show, really liking Meredith Viera – she’s down-to-earth and you have the impression that she genuinely cares about people (she’s not full of herself), also knowing how to have fun – she’s a balanced person.

kim,
I hope that Dr. Phil took the mother and grandmother aside (after the show) and spelled it out to them – this kid is a psychopath (most likely). They need to educate themselves about the disorder ’cause the little guy sounds dangerous.

Ox Drover

I have worked in inpatient settings with these kids and the ONLY thing I saw that they “got” was that they did realize that two great big former football playing mental health techs could over power them, but they knew just to the LIMIT of what they could do WITH GLEE and still not get tackled.

I may sound like some soul-less old lady but when these kids like the one on DP (I saw the last half of that show) reach that Point I think there is NO hope for them, but in our society you MIGHT keep them locked up til 18 in a mental health unit of some kind (I say MIGHT) but the day they turn 18, UNTIL THEY HAVE COMMITTED A PROVEABLE CRIME, THEY ARE OUT! It is ONLY now coming that a PREVIOUS PROVEN SEX OFFENDER who is judged STILL DANGEROUS can be kept incarcerated though he has not YET committed another crime. I agree with that, but at the same time, it sort of makes me feel like We are living in Russia or China or somewhere “thought crime” is prosecuted.

Not all psychopaths abuse animals, wet the bed or set fires, my P son, who is a HIGH LEVEL violent psychopath, did NONE of these things as a young child or as an adolescent. He actually confined his violence to PEOPLE. My egg donor’s brother, my Uncle Monster, as far as I can find out, who was also a viscious and violent abuser of his wife, children and other women, as far as I know, never wet the bed, abused animals, or set fires. In fact, seemed very attached to various pet animals. He DID however start smothering his infant sister from her birth until she was 7 years old. He was 7 years old when he first started smothering her unconscious. He was 14 when his father found out and whooloped his butt for it and he stopped abusing his sister. MY GM, his mother, knew it about from the first but PROTECTED HIM from his dad finding out. She TRIED to protect her daughter by keeping her close to her where he couldn’t get to her unobserved, but that didn’t work. The excuse for the enabling was “if he got a spanking for doing that, he might run away from home.”

The enabling in that side of the family goes back for GENERATIONS at least to the early 1800s. Abusive men, enabling women. One generation after another. Male children protected and valuable, and female children, less valuable except as protectors of the males. I am proud to say that even though it took me a LONG TIME to “get it” THE BUCK STOPS WITH ME, I AM THE LAST GENERATION TO ENABLE THE MALES. I will do it No more!!!!! I’m done!

bluejay

Having read this article, I strongly think that the disorder can run in families. I am pretty certain that my h-spath’s paternal side of the family had members afflicted with it. I learned from a sister-in-law (married to h-spath’s baby brother) that one uncle tried to stab his sister and ended up being committed to a mental hospital (this would be my father-in-law’s brother). I also learned that when my father-in-law (he’s deceased) was three years old, he tried to hit his baby sister with a stick (she was in her crib) because she wouldn’t play with him. He grew up to be a father who physically abused his kids, being a terrible parent. The kids really didn’t like having him around because he was unpleasant, not wanting to talk to any of them. I also remember hearing about a female cousin who ingratiated herself with a maiden aunt (my father-in-law’s sister), ending up her heir, inheriting all this woman’s assets. The family members (from what I heard) were angry with this relative, some of them refusing to speak to her, having anything to do with her. Interestingly, she ended up coming to my father-in-law’s funeral. I suspect that there were spaths on this side of the family, paternal side.

PureWaters2

Is anyone bracing themselves for Van der Sloot to start playing the public for sympathy???

I am…

That’s why I visited here, right after I read the headlines:

Joran van der Sloot Fears for His Life in Peruvian Prison –

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20393769,00.html

Ox Drover

Dear Bluejay, there i s LITTLE doubt in my mind at least that there is not a BIG component that is genetic (runs in families) as do other mental conditions, from depression, bi-polar, etc) but it also has an environmental component too. What the percentage of each in a given situation may vary, but I think it takes B OTH.

Purewater, Of course he will try the pity play, but you know, I have a feeling he can whine till hell freezes over and we can all go ice skating and NOT GET MUCH SYMPATHY at all from anyone outside his family. He has ACTED TOO ARROGANT and the latest KILLING IS SO BRUTAL AND SO WITHOUT A DOUBT WHAT HE DID that I think if he was placed in a 13th century rack and it was televised while they cranked it and pulled his arms and legs out of socket, then burned him alive, that there is NO ONE ON THE PLANET that would cry for him.

I don’t think he GETS that either. Those young men in Aruba who HELPED HIM dispose of the body, in my opinion also ought to be prosecuted but I doubt they will be. I read where he is trying to cut a deal to tell where and how Natalie died and where her body is (my guess is it is not retrievable and was dumped in the ocean) but will only tell it to the authorities in ARUBA—so he is wiggling as best he can to GET OUT of Peru, but I doubt that will work. As bad as the family wants to know, Peru is not likely to let this man out of their grasp. They might let officials from Aruba come there and interview him about Natalie, but Peru would never see him again if theyy let him slip through.

I do wish our FBI had nailed him when they gave him the “pay off” for the extortion sting. It would have saved this girl’s life in Peru, though of course no one would have known it. At least he would have been in prison for a while. Who knows how many others he might have killed if he hadn’t really gotten arrogant and stupid this time?

bluejay

OxDrover,

I think genetics plus parental dynamics caused my h-spath to develop the disorder. In my h-spath’s case, I suspect (just from what I’ve learned about his family line), that there’s a STRONG POSSIBILITY that there were other relatives afflicted with the disorder.

The best place for Van der Sloot obviously is prison. It’s unfortunate that another young person had to die before we finally realized what he is, a sociopath, unable to be cured or helped in any way.

bluejay

PureWaters2,

I read the People magazine article. Gosh, how awful. All I could think about was his mother – what she must be going through. Agony, I imagine. No-one can take her worries, concerns for her son (what Joran himself could experience in prison) away from her – she has to endure this mental torture somehow, someway. I feel for this woman.

purewaters3

I can’t believe it (actually, I can…) but, my username has been deleted again, on this site, and I’m now Purewaters3…

This is amazing.

purewaters3

Bluejay,

I am somewhat jaded when considering Van der Sloot’s mother, considering the parental involvement with the Holloway case… how they enabled him.

I’ve seen, first hand through my ex’s mother, how a mother can and will cover up her child’s crimes, almost to the extent of becoming an accomplice – and, becoming venemous and cruel in defense of her “guilty” son.

So, I wasn’t immediately struck by sympathy for her (not that she doesn’t deserve it)… and, not that I don’t hope she has resources for help and understanding within her community, where she can get to the point of making peace with her son being a sociopath, in jail.

That’s the best place for him.

I do feel terrible for Natalie Holloway’s mother… who had this murderer contact her and offer money in exchange for the location of Natalie’s remains. That makes me sick and angry.

kim frederick

Oxy, I agree that not all young psychopathsdisplay any or all of those tendancies, but in my researchthere is a strong coorelation between all three tendancies and serial killers.

The research doesn’t say paychopathy, it says serial killers, which we know are at the extreem end of the scale…Probably most of the spaths that we here, have encountered were never so extreme, but to me. I am just passing on what I have read, so that parents are aware that these are HUGE danger signals, specially when all three are persistant.

Having said that, it also doesn’t follow that every kid who displays these three behaviors is or will be a serial killer. Just something to be aware of.

The kid on Dr. Phill started killing because he liked it at age three. This is pretty clearly a red flag.

Serial killers are thrill killers. They kill because it feels good. It gives them pleasure.

While I have no doubt that many garden variety psychopaths would be willing to kill, it doesn’t follow that they are seial (thrill killers) At any rate, they are all without empathy and/or remorse.

kim frederick

Hi one-step. Glad to hear your interview went well and that you are feeling a bit better.

Well Purewaters, you just keep getting better and better, purer and purer… 🙂 keep coming back.

kim frederick

I saw an interview, several years ago with Jeffry Dahmer, and his parents….I have to tell you I felt enormous sympathy for them…Very, very sad.

bluejay

PureWaters3,

I’m assuming (maybe wrongly) that Joran’s mother sincerely believed that her son did not harm (maybe naively on my end) Natalee Holloway. If either of my sons were in prison, even if they were justifiably there, I would be concerned about them, not wanting more violence, harm to come to anyone (son or others within the prison).

purewaters3

Bluejay,

I’m sure she believed that Joran was innocent (I bet her gut told her otherwise, though), but at what point does a parent have to say, “Hey, this is enough… my child is sick.”?

I don’t know the inside details of their lives, so I can only speculate, but from what I’ve read, the father almost went to jail with helping his son in the Holloway case.

If my son murdered 2 innocent women, I would want him to face the consequences of his actions…

The victim’s parents will NEVER see their daughter’s, ever again. Natalie’s mother hasn’t ever had even the slightest amount of closure – like a funeral for her daughter’s remains.

I’m sorry, I’m just not at the point where I can sympathize with Joran’s mother. But, I’m glad there are people who can.

bluejay

purewaters3,

I agree. If my child murdered another person, I would want justice served, haul him/her into prison. However, I can relate to the mother – even if she suspected that Joran might have done the crime, she might have been in denial, literally unable to accept the reality of her son’s character. I’m assuming that she believed what her son was telling the public, was allowing the legal channels to do their work (at the time of the incident), ending with the fact that there was no clear verdict concerning her son. She gave her son the benefit of the doubt. Who knows what she did or didn’t know. I just have compassion for her. The whole situation is tragic (for the victims and the perpetrator’s family). If I knew that my child committed the crime, he/she would do the time.

ErinBrock

Heres an article shedding some light on SLOOT that i’ve not seen before.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100613/ap_on_re_us/van_der_sloot_s_journey;_ylt=AgQQt5wm7auB7ZuzZID4OYLBF4l4;_ylu=X3oDMTNjcnV2OHE2BGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwNjEzL3Zhbl9kZXJfc2xvb3Rfc19qb3VybmV5BGNjb2RlA21vc3Rwb3B1bGFyBGNwb3MDNQRwb3MDNQRzZWMDeW5fdG9wX3N0b3JpZXMEc2xrA2JyYWNrZXRlZGJ5Yw–

It’s got his cousin saying he’s not a psychopath….he just needs help.

NO….he needs to be shot!….raped first, his balls cut off, beat on, left for a couple of hours……then shot as he runs bleeding through the forest.

bluejay

ErinBrock,

I read the article – interesting that he described himself as a SNAKE, but he would like to be a lion.

Ox Drover

Well, guys, I can definitely RELATE to Joran’s mother, and also to the father of Charles “Jackie” Walls III who is one of THE worst pedophiles ever who is doing time in Arkansdas for raping over 1500 kids over a 20 year period including his own nephews (I knew Jackie and his father both, in fact the entire family) Jackie’s dad was a judge and was an HONEST MAN, and a GOOD man and the first time there was “talk” but no real proof that jackie was a pedophile (the Boy Scouts did kick him out as a leader though) his father quieted the talk down just because he did not believe Jackie was guilty. I klnew Jackie was an arsehold delux, 24 karat gold plated, but it never ever dawned on me he was a MONSTER.

When Jackie was arrested 9 years later after one of his victims, at jackie’s orders had KILLED HIS ENTIRE FAMILY to keep jackie from being exposed, I can ONLY IMAGINE WHAT Jackie’s father felt. As far as I know he never again left his front door in shame and agony. Knowing that him “helping” his son who WAS guilty had caused the deaths of several people and more destruction than had already gone on. I cannot even imagine the horror this man felt, and in some ways I feel guilty myself about the enabling I did for my own son in him killing the girl he did, maybe if I hadn’t he wouldn’t have killed her. I do strongly believe though that if he had come back to live with me after he first got out of prison he would have killed me INSTEAD OF HER, and that sort of makes me feel guilty too. I know I’m NOT responsible, but it is something I’ve had to deal with.l

We can’t KNOW about the Van der Sloot family dynamics of course, but my GUESS is that it isn’t a poster family for either good genes or environment either one. My guess is that it takes dysfunction to a new art form! Who is the victim and who is the enabler or who is the victim AND enabler I can’t guess exceptit is easy to say “looks like he has a lot of psychopathic traits” (that’s for darn sure!)

I do know what it is like to think your “poor baby” child is in danger in prison from all those big mean brutes, I also know what it is like to know your kid DESERVES to be in prison, and I know what it is like to HOPE against HOPE that your child has learned and repented, and then I also know what it is like to GIVE UP ANY HOPE FOR YOUR CHILD, BECAUSE YOU KNOW HE IS A MONSTER. All of those stages are extremely painful, but like childbirth, no one can go through them FOR us, we have to go through them ourselves.

I have a great deal of empathy for Joran’s mother as she is a suffering human being, but she is going to have to walk through the fires of her own hell, take responsibility for any enabling she has done which has ultimately led to this, and live the rest of her life. I’m sorry she has to do it in the lime light of the scorn of the entire world, though. At least I could keep mine out of the public eye for the most part! That was some solace to me.

Buttons

Liane, an EXCELLENT article, especially defining the serial killer.

It’s almost a relief to see that someone has used “sociopath” with regard to Van der Skunk.

OxD, the wanton enabling and seemingly WILLFUL dysfuction in many spath-related families is beyond my capacity to comprehend. When someone does something (anything) that is harmful to others, illegal, and/or amoral, they should be held accountable and NOT coddled, excused, or enabled. Some of the things that I’ve known about even with regard to the spath son is just outrageous.

Now, to clarify the unwilling participation, the ex spath would “require” my participation, and I believe that the importance of my participation was quite simple. If I were directly involved in what the ex spath wanted done, I was an accessory and, therefore, he figured that I would never talk about our activities. Once the shame and abuse became clearly defined, my participation ended and I got the heck out.

OxD, you’re so right that Van der Snot’s mother is definitely going to have to do some very hard, long, intense work to get through this – even to address it. I’ve always been fearful of the knock at the door or the phone call to inform me that the spath son has been involved in some crime. Because I chose to call a spade a spade and go NC, I’m prepared for the worst. Hopefully, I’ll never hear that knock or get that phone call.

Rosa

This is what Joran Van Der Sloot does when he is unhappy with the way the interview is going….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyZEM7ECohs&NR=1

It shows poor impulse control, and speaks volumes about the core of his personality.

Redwald

Keith Ablow sounds like one of those people who’s in denial about the influence of genetics on human personality.

I doubt the FBI has much to learn about psychopaths. They’ve got whole departments that specialize in that kind of thing, in profiling serial killers for instance. Even the ordinary agent is going to be well aware that criminal suspects tell lies and can be altogether slippery, whether they’re psychopathic or not.

Paul Lindsay said “the FBI formula for extortion stings is “set ’em up, pay ’em off, get ’em to talk, never let them leave the room without handcuffs on.” But it’s not clear to me that the FBI ever GOT van der Sloot in a “room” to begin with! My impression is that this “sting” was conducted entirely at long distance, and their immediate intention was to entrap the guy for extortion and get him extradited to the U.S. Then they’d proceed from there. It’s not that the operation “failed” so much as the difficulties of getting Aruban authorities to cooperate slowed it down enough to make a fatal difference.

Any operation of that kind is a gamble. If the “sting” succeeded, then the FBI would get to STOP van der Sloot, probably for as long as several years on the extortion charge. Nobody had been able to do that much before. That might provide the time and opportunity to get a case together or force a confession for Natalee Holloway’s murder as well. Those gains were well worth playing for.

If it failed, what did they stand to lose? At most, $25,000 of somebody else’s money that they’d been voluntarily offered. Based on van der Sloot’s past behavior, they had no reason to suppose he was likely to fly off and kill someone else right away. Van der Sloot has traveled to many places in the five years since Natalee Holloway’s murder, and there’s no evidence that he’s been responsible for any other murder since then. It’s possible that he was, and managed to remain unsuspected just as Oxy said, but there’s no actual evidence of that.

Far more important is that he’s been to all these places all over the world WITHOUT needing any financial subsidies from the FBI! So I don’t think this $25,000 made a scrap of difference one way or the other. If van der Sloot was going to kill again, he was going to do it anyway, sooner or later, with or without that $25,000. He obviously has other sources of money, and seems to have some dirty ways of getting it besides. There are allegations that he’s been involved in sex trafficking in Thailand, for instance.

When we talk about “enabling” anyone in a case like this, it really boils down to what Ayn Rand said in some context or other: “The question isn’t who is going to LET me; it’s who is going to STOP me.” That’s true of any human. We’re all perfectly free to do whatever we CAN. And if we can’t find the resources to do it in one place, more often than not we can find them in another place. This is just as true for psychopaths as it is for anyone else. No matter how evil the things they do, the question is still not “who is going to LET them,” but “who is going to STOP them.”

That’s why I wouldn’t blame the FBI for this. At least they were trying to STOP this guy. Nobody else currently was.

Ox Drover

Dear Redwald,

You are right, and Ayn Rand is also right, they will manage to get someone to help them or manage somehow to get the resources they need or want to do their evil. Unfortunately, I also know how easy it is to get sucked into the evil vortex of the psychopathic adult child because we keep on with the malignant Hope that either we are wrong about them or that they will reform.

I see so many family members in so many situations with adult kids, and the family enabling them, bailing them out over and over, and I’m not sure if the family members are not BOTH victims and ENABLERS/CO-conspiritors in the evil accomplished by the ones they enable.

It is sort of like keeping a dog that you know is viscious and each time it bites someone you still refuse to do anything about the dog because you “love it” —and eventually when it kills someone— WHO is to blame? You or the dog?

Well, I KNOW what to do with a dog that bites, and I would have NO problem doing it even with a dog that I dearly loved, but unfortunately, the law NOW frowns on us doing that to a human, though the Law of Moses did prescribe just such a thing for a child or adult child that was UNCONTROLABLE. They were to be brought before the elders by their parents and essentially tried and if found uncontrolable, to be put to death.

The Bible is full of sons of great men who should have been put to death under such a law, including King David’s son, Absalom, who David enabled and failed to control. The stories in the Bible about psychopaths, narcissists and enablling unruly children, consorting with “bad people” and on and on, never cease to amaze me. Even if a person doesn’t believe the Bible is any kind of “holy” book, it is still a wonderful text book of Psych 101! Giving us some great examples of what to do and not to do with evil people!!!!!

purewaters3

OxDrover,

I just want to compliment your responses… they are honest, brave, responsible and caring, etc!

And, I think you’re on the mark, 99.9999%!

(you’ve got yerself a cheerleader, even if you don’t want/need one —->me) Hahaha.

Also, p.s. I’m going to use your term:

arsehold delux, 24 karat gold plated – hilarious!

Wini

Oxy, yes the facts about Life and the Hereafter (the Bible).

Interesting what these scriptures say taken directly from the Bible:

The sinner is as bad as what is said in scriptures.

Scripture says,

“they are filled with all unrighteousness” (Romans 1:29).

“The hearts of the sons of men are full of evil” (Ecclesiastes 9:3), and they have an evil spirit working in them (Ephesians 2:2). AGAIN, THEY DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD.

False assurance is certainly given, when a void that doesn’t exist is supposedly filled.

God says,

“The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God; God is in none of his thoughts.” (Psalm 10:4).

“And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, . . .” (Romans 1:28)

And, “There is none who seeks after God.” (Romans 3:11)

And, “An evil man seeks only rebellion.” (Proverbs 17:11; see also Romans 1:18-32; 3:10-18; Proverbs 14:2).

Psalm 10:3 says the wicked “renounce the Lord.”

John 3:20 says they hate the light (1 John 1:5).

Romans 1:30 describes them as “haters of God.”

They are not lonely for Him. They do not thirst for God. They would not rather try to build their own ladder to God. They hate Him.

He who walks in his uprightness fears the Lord, but he who is perverse in his ways despises Him. (Proverbs 14:2; see also Romans 1:18-32; John 3:19-20)

So I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter My rest. (Psalm 95:11; see also Hebrews 3:11-19 and Numbers 1:45-46; 14:28-35; 26:2, 51, 63-65).

Those who blasphemed the Holy Spirit lay beyond the forgiveness of God (Matthew 12:22-32).

Today, anyone who sins willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth lies beyond the forgiveness of God (Hebrews 10:26-31).

Moreover, in the future, the antichrist, the son of perdition (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) and his false prophet (Revelation 13:11-17), and all who worship the beast, will lie beyond the forgiveness of God as they walk upon the earth (Revelation 13:8; 14:9-11; 19:20).

And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him! (Luke 12:4-5).

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-12, 15).

“. . . when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction . . .” (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9; see also Matthew 8:12; 10:28; 13:41-42, 49-50; 18:8-9; 22:13; 25:30, 41; Mark 9:45, 47; Revelation 19:20).

It’s been how many years that NON-believers had God removed from our school systems, public buildings, division of church and state? How many short years and chaos continues to flourish. When you take God out, what is put in it’s place? Satan’s lies is what replaces God’s truth.

Our way of life was founded on God, read any form of our money in this country and it says “In God we Trust” … and people wonder why chaos has been running rampant in our streets? It is due to taking God out of our way of life, not preaching/teaching His truth, but man’s truth (Satan again)!

Ox Drover

Dear PUREWATER 2,800,890,304 (LOL–ROTFLMAO)

Thank you sweetie! I’m just past the point I think of taking myself too seriously any more! This has been a good week for me, getting that letter from the Senator to the Parole board head for my P-son’s PERMANENT FILE—doesn’t assure he will get a 5 yr set off at his next heariing, but I THINK IT WILL HELP.

Also been doing a little ON LINE searching and just found out that the parents of his victim filed a WRONGFUL DEATH SUIT against him and the company he worked for (they both worked there) sooooooo, it may be that with a little more digging I can find where they got a judgment against himm and/or the company AND it is possible that if he gets any MONEY THEY CAN SEIZE IT. The article gave the name of their attorney so I need to contact him tomorrow and see what I can find out. I don’t’ care if my egg donor gives her entire estate to him, if SOMEONE ELSE CAN SEIZE IT! AS LONG AS HE DOESN’T GET IT!!! TOWANDA!!!!!!

super chic

PureWaters, maybe you should
just change your handle to
H2o !!!!!!!!!!

purewaters3

Haha. You know what? If purewaters3 gets deleted – you’ve got it, my next name will be H20…. haha..

Ox Drover

Did you ever contact DONNA? I had a heck of a time, it wouldn’t take my password, and then she would send me a new one and it wouldn’t take that. Then it would finally take it, then not again, and back and forth and over and over and then some how it just “fixed itself” I think. Anyway, I’m still here so see if Donna can fix you. I just hate it when people change their names cause I can’t REMEMBER who is who! LOL

purewaters3

Yeah, I emailed her the last time, and this time, too.

Last time, she said my usernames might be getting deleted as spam. I haven’t heard anything yet about this recent thing, though.

I’ll keep using the purewaters so you guys know who I am.

The strange part is that the system is deleting my username… not an issue with the password.

blueskies

I have only been made aware of the Van Der Sloot case (and his entire existence ) through LF. This creature is terrifying.

Its rather depressing to see him ‘enjoying his fame’, it’s depressing to see the media enjoy the circus he is creating and also depressing that any psychiatrist deamed fit to publicly comment would say “Serial killers whether organized or disorganized are always made, never born. Having interviewed dozens of killers myself, I can tell you that it turns out that evil never appears ’out of the womb’.” as far as I knew the jury was out on a definitive.

*Big sigh.*

(going to read the comments now.)

blueskies

So depressing:(
I have to say – that I too find sympathy with the enablers still (although ‘they’ P me off because of WHAT they enable) – these f***kers are so good at screwing everyone.
Interesting (to me) is his over exaggerated hand movements in the police interview clip After the one as he entered the room with he the coffee cups… it’s real familiar:( underlining that in my spath spotter book.

bluejay

I wasn’t always sure what was meant by having poor impulse control, but now I’m getting it. I watched the clip that Rosa posted and read the comments that the interviewer relayed about Joran, what Joran told him after the wine incident occurred, that Joran claimed he just couldn’t seem to help himself, throwing the wine into the interviewer’s face. He was mad about how the interview was going and he reacted (impulsively) by getting back at the interviewer, thus the wine in the face. It seems that he was unable to control his response – it just happened, the impulse being too strong internally.

Ox Drover

Dear Bluejay,

This is just MY opinion on “impulse control”—I see it kind of two ways. One is the “throwing the wine” in someone’s face because you got pithed and just did it before you thought.

Two is that I walk by the bank and think “There’s a lot of money in the bank. I’d like to have a lot of money” (impulsive thinking) so instead of SUPRESSING that IMPULSE to robh the bank, I go home and get a ski mask and a gun and go rob the bank.

Either way, I have ALLOWED my IMPULSES to rule my behavior by not looking at the CONSEQUENCES of my actions fully before I do them and not letting the higher order of the brain put some logic and sense to the impulsive actions.

If that makes any sense. Either way, the psychopaths are “impulsive” and sometimes BOTH ways.

bluejay

OxDrover,

That’s a great explanation, helping me to understand the concept of poor impulse control. Now, I understand. Thanks.

behind_blue_eyes

There are other forms of poor impulse control such as over-spending, gambling and domestic violent. Since sociopaths are charming and very capable of hiding their character defects, these types of impulse control problems may not surface until too late for the “victim.” Would anyone date a self-confessed gambling addict/spouse abuser? However, I think poor impulse control if a fundamental trait of the sociopath, stemming from their predatory nature.

While not all sociopaths over spend, gamble, and physically abuse partners, all are emotional abusers. Early on, the emotional abuse may be subtle, but with honest retrospection, the emotional abuse from the sociopath was present from the relationships’s beginning, perhaps in the form of a statement or action that left you thinking WTF?

I was witness to several of these WTF impluse control moments from my x-sociopath Jamie. The first was when he walked out on me in a very nice restaurant, simply because I asked him back to my apartment after dinner. I apparently “offended his British reservedness…” The second occurred at my apartment. I had prepared a very nice setting, appropriate for the upcoming Christmas holiday. A small tree, some candles, a nice pie… Jamie scolded me for leaving the candles burning, scoffed at the “Charlie Brown” Christmas tree and was particularly angry at the pie: “I told you I am not into sweets…”

Notice too how in both instances I was somehow to blame and at the time, I viewed Jamie’s behavior as part of his charm and a “normal” reaction to me going moving too fast. Only after coming here and fully understanding all the traits of a sociopath did these subtle but memorable events finally make sense to me, as I was hitting too close to home regarding something Jamie was hiding…

Wini

Well, if the professionals need a guinea pig to pick a psychopath’s brain apart. I’m raising my hand and gladly volunteering my EX!

bluejay

OxDrover and behind_blue_eyes,

My h-spath is impulsive when it comes to money. He cannot save money, lacking “money sense”, infuriating me. It would boggle my mind that he was incapable of managing a bank account. I have experienced more than I care to in connection to this disorder, sociopathy.

Ox Drover

There are thousands of ways in which they lack impulse control, they are the “poster children” for I WANT WHAT I WANT AND I WANT IT NOW!”

Delayed gratification is not their strong point! LOL

Jamie’s making hateful remarks about your tree, your pie, etc. is so typical. Henry’s X did the same thing. Jamie had NO tree, so he had to ridicule YOURS, and so on. SO typical of these creeps.

Wini, just be sure no one gets the jar labeled “abby normal” for the brain for the monster they are putting together in the next surgery. ha ha

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