By | January 18, 2012 102 Comments

What Does Healing Look Like?

Editor’s note: The following article refers to spiritual concepts. Please read Lovefraud’s statement on Spiritual Recovery.

Healing does not always look like what “I” think it should look.  Last week’s post was another example.  I checked it late in the evening and read many posts that sounded like my post was doing more harm than good to some.  Frankly, it made me uncomfortable for a moment and I needed to think about what I was feeling.  I’d prefer everyone to say wonderful things about these posts and get well immediately, but that is not how it works.

The Truth often makes us uncomfortable, because it means that we have a choice, and can do something about how we are feeling.  The absolute hardest lesson for me to learn was that I am not a victim (there I go again!).  If I am not responsible for my own happiness, then who is?  Healing is not always easy.  It often takes courage, faith and endurance, but it is always available.  It IS up to us.

My experience was, and continues to be, that healing does not always look like I think it should look.  In fact, sometimes it appears to be destructive, hurtful and scary.  This is where Faith and fellowship come in.

Personally, I needed the help of others sharing their own personal experience as it related to my own journey.  Many of them “thought” they were being harmed too, when in fact, they were on the road to Healing.   This gave me hope when I needed it most”¦when things looked the worst.

The gift of this site is that Lovefraud provides a place where people can share and help each other.  Those that have been through this and healed return to help others and that is a beautiful thing.  I call it A Miracle.

For the ones returning to help, what was once a nightmare of pain and suffering has now become a beacon of peace, hope and freedom for others.  I am pretty sure none of us saw that coming when we were at our darkest moments.

I certainly never thought my experience with my dad killing people would be a “good” experience”¦But hey, what do I know anyway???  Certainly not enough to tell someone else what Healing should look like!  I do know that it feels good and for that”¦I am forever grateful!

Today is a great day for A Miracle!

A Course In Forgiving begins January 19, 2012.  I did not come here to promote The Course, but to offer it to those that feel moved to do something more about the pain in their lives. 

If you registered for The Course and have NOT received an email from me, please re-register, or email me at [email protected]

There is no fee of (optional donation of up to $25.00) for the six week online course.  This Course is designed to guide participants through the Step by Step Spiritual Process of Letting Go with weekly lessons, readings and exercises that are intended to open the pathway to healing and Peace.

If interested, please visit and click the link in the left hand column titled “Six Week Course Online”.  For those that participate, I will be available by phone and email to share experience in addition to this weekly blog on Lovefraud.


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I certainly agree with you. When I first started, my goal was to warn the public that con men were out there so that people wouldn’t lose their money. Helping people heal from the trauma of their experiences was not my objective.

But Lovefraud took on a life of its own, and became a community of people helping each other overcome the trauma. Healing is often a bumpy process, which is apparent in the comments that readers post.

I am grateful to everyone who has contributed to Lovefraud, making it a community dedicated to personal recovery and growth.


Thank you for this opportunity you are sharing with our ‘fellowship’ here at LF.
Healing is a camelion… changes faces for each of us. We never know when our breakthrough moments come, and usually they blindside us.
This is one of the reasons I believe……..everything happens for a reason.

Thank you again!


“Oneday” here. Last night was a scary experience for me. After getting into a discussion (fruitlesss) about behavior and the state of our relationship, my husband started to “gaslight” me. He insists that a few things happened a certain way and I know for a fact they did not. He said “then I must be going crazy. I think I am going to check myself in to a mental institution for a few days, months, years….” He then walked to the closet started to put on some jeans, shirt and I approached him asking him what he was going on, and could he just sit down. He kept walking and then he (seemed) to walk out the door leading to the garage. We have an alarm that chimes whenever a door is opened and I heard the chime and I heard the door downstairs near the garage. BUT I never heard the car start or the garage door open.
I started to feel scared. This is 11:30 p.m. at night and I have a daughter sleeping in the house in her room not far from ours. Again, I listen…I hear no garage door, no starting of the car. So I start feeling this very uneasy feeling in my gut. I go downstairs and start to feel like maybe he didn’t leave the house, maybe he is INSIDE the house just hiding someplace. A very creepy, odd feeling. I start to feel a little unsafe. I then say out loud, “If you are down here, please say something because I am scared.”
No reply.
I walk over to the garage, open the door a slight bit (few inches) peer out and notice all cars still in the garage…so yes, he is someplace around here. Maybe in the house??
AGAIN, I start to talk a little louder so maybe he can hear me if he is hiding someplace…asking him to please let me know where he is, I told him I noticed the cars were still here so he must be someplace in the house and I am now very scared.
Silence ensues. I then say that if he doesn’t respond then I will call the police.
My daughter upstairs hears me and gets upset…”Mom what is going on. Why are you going to call the police?”
I rush upstairs to try to calm her down and explain that her father was upset (she’s seen it before) and he left or I think he did but I’m not sure where he is at.
She becomes frightened and starts to feel like she’s going to throw up.
I literally have no clue what to do…call the cops? Call a friend? I call a friend who is slightly aware of my maritial situation. She is concerned and offers to drive right over. I explain that I can’t find him and I think it is possible that he is in the house.

At this point, I am pretty terrified. I just want to run out the front door and go to a hotel with my daughter. But I don’t want to upset her.

Anyway, I ended up calling my husband’s cell phone number. He answers “Yeah?” “Where are you?? This is really freaking me out and Kris is awake and upset. What is going on?”

“I’m in the garage” he tells me.

How scary and creepy is this? I just want it over.

I slept in the same bed in the guestroom last night with my daughter and I’m going to hire the attorney asap today. THIS is just bullshit.

He, of course, offers a “sorry” before coming back to bed.

I let my daughter sleep in today since we were up from 11:30 – 1:30 a.m. last night dealing with this type of behavior.
This is a helluva way for a child to grow up.

I was just so scared he was going to pop out of the closet and do something scary. He tells me that “you saw me in the garage” when I opened the door a few inches to peer out there. AND the truth is I didn’t see him at all. Point is, he’s a lunatic.
God help me today.

Thank you for letting me share this….I need some support.

Thank you.

Ox Drover

Dear OneDay,

I’m sorry for your experience last night but glad that it made you decide too call an attorney and be DONE with this as quickly as possible.

Your husband ACCOMPLISHED what he set out to do—scare you and scare your child. That’s what they do.

The road to and through divorce will NOT be without bumps but you will be better off without this gaslighting and without this being frightened.

Hang tough! God bless.

Ox Drover

Travis, I thought your article last time was good, I was sort of unsure about the opinions of others on it, but I am NOT in the same place that they are about the word “forgiveness” though I have worked hard to “work through” that word and my own definition of it as getting rid of the bitterness in our hearts for OUR OWN SAKES, not the sake of the abuser. Forgiveness is for us I think.

Anyway, I think you are right healing looks different for each of us, and I do agree 110% that WE are in control of our healing, our emotions and our feelings and beliefs and we must take command of those things and harness them for our own good, not allow them to be highjacked by the psychopaths in our lives. I appreciate your articles very much Travis and having both a sperm donor, I never really saw him as a father, and a son who have committed murder, I can relate to your situation very much. I do believe that GOOD can come from even the worst of situations though but we must MAKE IT HAPPEN.

sharing the journey


I may have been one of the posts that was unforgiving of the P in my life.

I am glad that you see that we are all travelling our paths and are at different stages.

What your post allowed me to do was to release a huge amount of anger–not at you–but at the P.

This helped me greatly and has opened a damn to my feelings that were numb.

Thank you

donna dixon

Hi Oneday,

Towards the end of my marriage I had become so scattered I was sure I must be going crazy. I was in such “shell shock” that I just couldn’t grasp how a wonderful marriage had gone so bad…..well during this time I felt it took a huge toll on my daughter. Mine was in her late teens at the time time but I look back and really think I wasn’t there for her totally and a lot of that had to do with being in the path of the Spath!!

I don’t know how old your daughter is but your mental state means everything to you and to HER. You are making the right decision. Any father (and believe me, I know this first hand) that can play the kind of games yours and mine have played with little regard as to how it affects their children is scum.

Mine is still playing games with my daughter but we are both in a better place to deal/or not deal with it.

Travis ~ You are a HUGE inspiration for all of us. Please keep posting!!! Many thanks!!

New Beginning

Travis, your post on compassion had a tremendous impact on me. It allowed me to stop beating myself up over having compassion for my ex-husband who adversely impacted every nook and crannie of my life. I now see this is the way that “I” cope with the experience. It’s neither right nor wrong, it’s just my way to heal.

Thank you for walking out on that limb, Travis.




I think I will always be a fence sitter when it come’s to forgiving the people who hurt me intentionally, with no regard for the life time effect and scar’s it has caused. Sure, I know I am responsible for my own happiness, now that I understand what motivated them to do the things they did I am no longer a victim. Yes my journey to understand ‘them’ did become more about ‘me’ and in the process I was able to let go of so much guilt and shame that was never mine to begin with..
The thing is ‘they’ look at me as damaged, not realizing they did the deed, if that makes sense. So I remain in no contact with them ( those that are still alive ) and they dont have to face the truth of who they are..because they are believed and I am discarded as the crazy one…maybe I am….and if so I earned it the hard way.
I like what Mia Angelo says [Forgiveness is giving up the hope that the past could of been any different…] Now that I can wrap my mind around…..I am not angry, anger takes to much out of my right now…


“Forgiveness is giving up the hope that the past could have been any different”

I like that Henry. Sums up how I feel too, which kinda makes it look like I have “forgiven”, even though I said I never would!

I do know that things could only have gone the way that they did go – that nothing I might have said, thought or done differently would have made one iota of difference, because the Superspath’s plan was the game he intended to play regardless of what anyone else said or thought or did.

I can’t say that I am not angry at him or for what he did to me – I feel completely justified (and always WILL) in my anger; but what I can qualify that with is this – my anger does not consume me, does not eat away at me anymore, does not affect the way I treat other people or the way I now live my life.

Whatever anger I feel, it does not overwhelm or diminish in any way the person I am today or the life I plan to live tomorrow.

That’s good enough for me.


Aussiegirl – So we are in a better/safer place. And thats good enuff for me too….


This is imo what healing looks like… 10 am in the morning in the supermarket buying the necessities for the next 2 days, hearing “play that funky music” from Wild Cherry over the speakers and being totally UNABLE to stand still. I was disco dancing in the aisle and boogying my way back to the cashier. One of the few customers there who noticed was giggling over it. I just smiled and winked at her, but continued to boogie my way over to the cashier anyway.

It’s been years ago that I did something so obviously “off”, but oh my, it just felt good to find my funk again.


darwinsmom –

Atta girl! Go get ’em tiger! Made me smile just to imagine you doing that thing…. 🙂


That’s kinda why I wrote it 😉 You’ll find your funk too one day again too aussiegirl. Heck, it’s not even been a year… but everyday gets better and better, and I’m doing well internally for several months now.


Healing and forgiveness are a long way off still for me.
I challenged my ex before the holidays, and realised that he was not the man I thought I loved despite or maybe because of his pleas and begging for forgiveness. I have since discovered that my decision was correct because with hardly time to dry his tears, he was back with his ex. They have been seen out walking hand-in-hand despite his protestations that it was over. Even when I encountered him by accident last week he was still begging me to take him back, not wanting to believe that I had moved on. It is a grim realisation that what I miss most about him is the sex!
I have had time to reflect on his arguments and realised that everything focussed on him and his wants or what he didn’t want, nothing about my needs or desires. I came back to this site because it reminded me of the previous blog ‘it was all about him’. At the time I thought that wasn’t relevant to me, that he cared more about me, but in the peace and space without him, I see that the last few years all revolved around him.
I now have to rebuild my life and family and relationships. I still care deeply possibly still love him in a peverse way, but know it is not to be, i have to accept the reality. Healing seems a long way off, but posts like this are reassuring that things will change

New Beginning

It continues to be my opinion that our paths to healing and our definitions of forgiveness are as individual as we are.

Henry, I like the quote you posted about forgiveness as I believe that is the point I’ve reached. I have given up hope that the past could be any different than it was. It just is.

In my mind’s eye, forgiveness is not absolution. My ex isn’t “off the hook” with me. I don’t want to see him, I no longer hold affection for him (took me a long time to get past that one) and I wouldn’t have any type of relationship with him even if we were the last two surviving humans on the planet.

My ex married me because he thought it was the path to being part of a loving family. In his mind he just needed to place himself with the loving, positive people. He would later learn that didn’t make him feel loved because he was incapable of bonding……and therein lies my compassion for him. I pray for his soul.


Post Script: In thinking about this I realized that I’ve experienced something that was beneficial for me and something he would have been a part of if we were still together. Perhaps I feel compassion because in a way (not through my doing, just how things unfolded) there has been a bit of retribution? Yes… definitely thinking this is a factor in my perception.


I don’t know how to tell this without writing a novel ”“ but I will try. My husband “Jack” of 22 years is the greatest husband in the world. In 2008 he was laid off from his job where he had worked for 21 years (22,000 were laid off total at his company). A six figure salary vanished. Like many Americans, we have had to spend all of our saving and retirement monies. We are barely surviving. Since that time he has sent out over 3,500 resumes and applications looking for work. Despite the fact that he has 2 Masters degrees and a stellar work history — he has had only one response (a minimum wage job that he accepted). For the last 4 years he has (simultaneously) worked 3, minimum wage, jobs ”“ including a newspaper delivery job; he wakes up at 3:30am 365 days per year to deliver 202 newspapers over a 57 mile route. He then moves on to job number 2 and job number 3. Working over 100, total, hours per week since 2008, he has managed to keep a roof over our heads and food in our stomachs and while he is frustrated and exhausted, he never complains. On top of this, he also finds time to volunteer at our church with special needs kids too. I do what I can, but with 5 kids (including one child that is mentally retarded ”“ our youngest) I must remain in the home. So, why am I writing? It is because of his (twin) sister, “Marilyn” and her behavior toward her brother, Jack. Though we live 1500 miles away, my husband has always been very close to his sister and they speak on the phone once per week. I also love my sister in law and I have been good friends with her since college. Our oldest children are only 2 months apart in age. In fact, she introduced me to her brother. So, until he lost his job, we were all extremely close. Then things began to change ”“ for the worse.

For the record, his sister married a man who is one of the best paid executives in the US. “Steve’s” salary is $200,000 per month and he receives an annual bonus of approximately $500,000 every February. They have multiple homes, vacation around the world and, generally, live the “good life.” They want for nothing and have never experienced unemployment or deprivation. In fact, “Steve” comes from a very wealthy family and his parent’s mansion is in the same neighborhood (overlooking San Francisco Bay) in which they reside. I think you get the picture.

The trouble is that his sister has been rude, cruel and mean to him ever since his job was lost and we have experienced financial difficulties. I have asked that he stop calling and communicating with her because he becomes very depressed and hurt at the things his sister says to him during these conversations. For example, when he lost his job and explained that he was having zero luck in obtaining an interview, Marilyn responded: “I don’t think you are trying hard enough.” ”“or- “Anybody that really wants to work can find work.” ”“or- “I do not believe that you sent out over 3500 resumes and only had one response!” She is, in effect, calling her brother a liar! I know for a fact that he has applied at over 3500 companies as I assist him in keeping track of the applications and I keep the spreadsheet that tracks his applications.

Or, when he informed his sister that our oldest child, recently, had to drop out of college his senior year to move home and help support our family, she replied: “I just took “Judy” to Montreal where we spent $15,000 on 10 outfits with a personal shopper so she can look good when she interviews after graduating from college in one month. Montreal always has more cutting edge fashions.” Not only does she reply with hurtful comments, she never inquires about our children, nor does she express empathy or sympathy at the fact that our child had to quit college to help the family. BTW, when Judy graduated college, she was hired by the same company that employs her Dad. They gave her a $100,000 starting salary and a $25,000 “moving bonus” to move to Chicago where her job will be located. While we are happy for any of our nieces and nephews that do well, this news hit my husband like a ton of bricks. He felt as if he was punched in the stomach. After 4 years of looking for a job with the greatest credentials in the world and two Masters degrees, he was dumbfounded that his niece (20 years old with a degree in “Fashion Merchandising”) got a job like she did. His sister called to crow: “Judy got a job in 2 weeks. I told you just have to work harder at it!” She chooses to ignore the fact that her husband got the job for Judy. “Sure, Steve got her in the door ”“ but Judy sold herself.” While we love our niece, she could not sell ice cream in the desert.

When Marilyn telephoned last week, and asked my husband (her brother): “How are you?” He replied: “Not too good. We are trying to come up with $60 to pay the phone bill so that it won’t get shut off.” His sister replied: “Well, if you find the money to keep your phone alive, call me back. But wait at least 3 hours as I am about to get my manicure, pedicure and weekly massage. If your phone has not been turned off, feel free to call me.”

When informed that we were going to get our Thanksgiving dinner from a food pantry this past year, his sister replied: “Steve and I have chartered two buses and we are taking 60 members of the National Guard to the Country Club for Thanksgiving and all the fixings. It costs us $15,000 but hey, it is a charitable write off.” Marilyn and Steve do make big, public, displays of charity — but have no room in their hearts for us. She then followed up with, “Judy and Samantha don’t know it yet, but the entire family is going Paris for 10 days to spend Christmas there.” And they did. Yesterday, my husband listened patiently for 30 minutes while she regaled him with stories about the restaurants and shopping in Paris.

In 2009, 1 year after his layoff (and having lost all of our health benefits), our child had a severe choking episode that required we take him to Mayo clinic for 10 days. My husband turned to his sister for help and her husband, graciously, lent us $5000 to help pay for the medical care and trip to Mayo clinic. She has spent the last 3.5 years telling any and all relatives about this “loan” and how, “we have yet to pay it back.” She acts like a martyr and repeats this over and over to anyone that will listen to her. This is particularly galling to me and my husband in light of the fact that we gave her $15,000 twenty one years ago when she was in financial distress — and we never asked for the money back. BTW, she is not a tea party nut case. She is a liberal democrat; one would think she had more empathy?

When she recently called to ask for some tax advice from her brother (my husband), he mentioned that “his adjusted gross income for 2011 was only $14,700 ”“ the lowest amount of money he has ever earned.” She replied, “Steve is supposed to receive a $750,000 bonus in February, 2012.”

When she called recently (and I answered the phone) and asked me, “how are you doing?” I replied, “Our heat might get shut off tonight and it is supposed to be cold.” She replied, “Well we are leaving for a private island in the Caribbean tomorrow, try to stay warm when we are gone.” I could give hundreds of more examples but I think you get the picture. I have told my husband to quit answering his sister’s calls. The effects on him are devastating. Extreme depression sets in and he cries. I realize that he loves his sister and that they have been close for their 47 years on this planet, but how much pain and abuse is one expected to take from a sibling (or anyone for that matter)?

Am I correct in asking my husband to stop contact with his sister? BTW, when I attempted to discuss this with her, she replied: “I don’t believe anything I said was hurtful to Jack. I know my brother, if he had a problem with what I was saying he would tell me.” So, she is in denial about her very actions.

Should contact be cut off from his sister? Our lives have been devastated by this economy. Our marriage is under a huge amount of strain. I think that he should eliminate this extra, hassle, from his life. He tends to agree and will abide by whatever your decision is.

Confused & hurt in NYC.

Ox Drover

Dear Brazil,

Welcome to Love Fraud….sorry about all your troubles, but sounds like you and your husband are doing the best you can under the circumstances.

As for his sister…that woman is a total biatch! To show NO concern for your situation when she is in such a well off financial situation and you and your husband are STRUGGLING I see her as UN-caring, rude and cruel hearted. That doesn’t mean she is a psychopath, but it does mean that she is TOXIC to your husband.

However, the relationship is between him and her, not you and her, so you can cut off your relationship with her for whatever reason that you want to, but your husband has to come to his own conclusions about contact with her.

You might point out to him that she is flaunting her “high living” situation, not showing any compassion for his situation (much less HELPING HIM) and that he is depressed after talking to her, but I think HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH HER IS HIS DECISION TO MAKE and after pointing this out by you, then you must respect HIS DECISION on HIS RELATIONSHIP with his sister.

As for them being “close” before he got laid off, I don’t think anyone could TRULY be “close” to this woman, I think she is a very superficial biatch and may be personality disordered it is just that with the evidence you have given us she is only superficial. But I sure wouldn’t want her in my life.

The way I am, I would sell plasma until I could pay her back the $5,000 and then I’d never have contact again. LOL

Good luck and I do understand how you’d like him to stop contacting her or letting her contact him, but Ultimately HE has to make the decision, you can’t dictate it. I hope he does make that decision though, and God bless him for working so hard to help support your family. It is tough for many of us with the depression on.

Ox Drover

Brighteyes and New Beginning,

Healing may seem “a long way off” at times and other times you may feel you are “there.” That is okay….and yes, forgiveness does NOT grant absolution at all. That is one thing I think that we must HOLD ON TO.

You’re both on your way toward the healing path, and just remember that the healing is a JOURNEY not a destination. We must continue on that JOURNEY the rest of our lives. Keep on LEARNING!


brazilb69 –

Nobody here will make any decisions for you or for your husband; it’s not our business to do so and while much good advice is offered on this site, it is up to individuals to determine what is helpful in their own particular case.

I would suggest that you do some reading on toxic personalities before you make any major changes at all. There are many topics archived alphabetically (see the bottom left hand corner of the page) that might be helpful in your circumstance.

I hope you find some wisdom here that will comfort you.


Hi there Drover of the Oxen!

You looking after them lil piggies o’ yours?

Ox Drover

Aussie girl, I knocked a box heavy box off a table and it fell on my achiles tendon as I was stretched out leaning on Friday the 13th, in a stupid accident and I’m on crutches. Went to the doc yesterday and he gave me a cortisone shot in the heel, which this time did not hurt! Told me the tendon wasn’t ruptured, I already knew that, and that I should just weight bear as tolerated, and I already knew that! LOL Being clumsy is my life time affliction so this is nothing [email protected]! LOL I’m just grateful it is the right leg this time, the left ankle has been broken or sprained about 6 times so far and it is barely holding together.

The piggies are getting big! The ex-boy piggie is healing up from his “surgery” to neuter him….which was so funny! Because one testicle had not descended so I actually had to do a bit of surgery on him and this Mexican hired had of my “partner” in this pig raising project had never seen such a surgery and his mouth was hanging open as it progressed. He asked my son D after it was over in his broken English “is he gonna be Okayyyyy” and D said “oh, yea, no problem, he’ll be fine….but don’t EVERRRRRR pith that old lady off!” LOL He said the guy then looked at me later wide eyed like “OHHHHHH I don’t ever want to pith her off!” LOL But I didn’t notice. ROTFLMAO choke snort

How are your critters? Safe I hope? Back home?


You silly woman!!! You remind me a bit of myself…..I have always been something of a clutz as well. Yet my reflexes are often amazing to behold – people will watch astonished as I not only knock something off a table but catch it just before it hits the floor. I just tell them, “Yep! I’m clumsy alright but I have EXCELLENT reflexes!” ROTFLMAO

Hope it gets better real quick. xx

Poor lil pigs – don’t they KNOW that getting big is a very bad idea?

I once watched an undescended testicle operation on a poodle (dog) at a vet teaching clinic, while eating my lunch. Stood at the glass viewing window and cheerfully munched my way through a roll and then a cream donut (from memory) while two people dug around and around inside the blasted dog; in the end they found the missing part up near his rib cage! Most interesting, although my fellow animal care students thought I was DISGUSTING to eat and watch at the same time….well I wasn’t IN THE ROOM – and I was hungry 🙂

So far so good – all quiet here still and feeling heaps better about it all since the cameras went up. The sheep and a handful of other beasties are still “holidaying” but I am thinking that I might as well bring them home; I’ve worked out that a bit of pen and cage shuffling could bring my favourites closer to the house where the dogs are, so they would be less likely to be targeted there.

Did you read on another thread about my adventure last Wednesday night with the guy hiding under my car at 11pm at night and the police here for three hours arresting him and impounding his vehicle until 2 in the morning? I won’t bore everyone with it again, I’ll just find it if you didn’t know about it and post a link here. xxx on 16 January

Well folks, it’s after 1 in the morning here and even though I am feeling wide awake, my poor old body is exhausted, so I’m off to try to catch some zzzzzzzzs. Goodnight to those who are on a similar timeline and have a great day the rest of you! x 🙂

Ox Drover

Dear Aussiegirl, Nah, I didn’t get the entire story but will go read it! I imagine it was “interesting.” LOL I’ll try the D, 😀

Once my uncle Monster called me and told me there was a dead man in his yard. Uncle was drunk and I mean DRUNK! So I called 911 and went down there to his house and sure enough there was a young man lying in his car port dead’ern’a hammer. I put a sheet over him. He was already cold to touch. Was til midnight when the “pronouncing” was done and the body hauled off. It was obvious he died of natural causes. Young man, but heart attack. Uncle knew he was “passed out” but didn’t realize he was DEAD for several hours. They had been drinking together. LOL Was a real mess. Just another local “story” that folks tell about the time there was a guy died in Uncle Monster’s yard. LOL

Usually before I get a broken or really badly sprained ankle there is the phrase “and I got on the horse….” or “I was climbing a ladder and…”

I can hear the machines that “chip up” the huge trees on my property, they are putting in a natural gas pipeline, (another one) across the place and they chip the trees up into mulch and bury them…this group really is doing a “nice” job, that is if you want your woods cut down and bull dozed and roads put in there and so on, which I don’t, but they paid a LOT of money to the egg donor for the privilege of doing so. I had protected the land from this very kind of thing but there came a time when I could no longer do so. Sad. But I do have my 3 cows and a heifer who are all with a BULL as we speak, and will only have 2 cows and a heifer when the weather gets a bit cooler (if it does) if not, we will have to take her to the butcher.

Fortunately for our piggie, his testicle was not very high up, just hadn’t come all the way down so I was able to retrieve it without too much trouble for me. He had a bit of extra problem with it, but I didn’t have too much.

Well, good night and sleep tight! ((Hugs)))


brazilb69 – that is quite a story you have shared. It is breathtaking to witness such people in action.

If it is a complete picture then it sounds like the closeness you all had at one time was predicated on external qualities rather than the enduring internal values your husband appears to exemplify. You are lucky to have him as your life partner and his well being and your family’s happiness should be your focus. Do not let the superficiality of others distract you from what is most important. It is easy when you are under such a stress financially to let “some thing” or “some one” become the focus of your anger and frustration. It is truly not fun to feel powerless and then have it rubbed in our faces.

Your sister-in-law does appear to be rather shallow and heartless. And while it is quite justified of you to harbor anger and ill will towards her for her thoughtlessness and selfishness the result is that she is renting space in your head free of charge. You are stewing in the poison of her behavior and she probably gives you and your suffering little thought.

I have to point out something that threw me when I read your post. You state : BTW, she is not a tea party nut case. She is a liberal democrat; one would think she had more empathy?

Your labeling others in such a way is entirely offensive. You categorize people into groups and make assumptions that are not only incorrect but just as shallow as the behavior you protest. There is much evidence that refutes your underlying assumption that a liberal democrat would be generous and a tea party or republican would not be. The facts demonstrate quite the opposite. Conservatives give far more generously of their money and time than do liberals. Not only in America but when measured against people of other nations. The most generous of all tend to be Christian conservatives and then conservatives of all stripes. You can read at the link I provide or find your own but very famous liberals have done the research themselves and been stunned to find out that their underlying assumption that liberals are the givers was in fact W R O N G…. Please enjoy having your perceptions altered:

Ox Drover

Breckgirl, Your post above down to the last paragraph is VERY good, and well worded and to the point! You are 110% correct in your conclusions I think.

As for the last paragraph, I think might be a bit overboard 😀 politically but I think you are right on the whole there.

I’m not sure Brazilb69 is still here though…I haven’t seen a response from her.

Your points about how we “focus” on some personality or other irritant when indeed we are worried about our financial situation or some other one are very very VERY valid. When I was involved in the “summer of Chaos” as I call it, I focused on such tiny insignificant things because I could not bear to see the entire picture. I think in a way it is a way to handle denial of the “big picture.”

In many ways, I think that when we are dealing with a psychopath they keep us OFF BALANCE and focusing on the small things by the constant crisis mode we are in, and the chaos that they generate. If we re focused on that or frightened, we are not so likely to be able to fight them effectively. Plus, I think they just LOVE THE CHAOS that they create. The drama. Oh, how they love the drama.

Good post!


Thank you all. My husband decided on his own to stop answering her calls. It happened organically when our roof began leaking this past week. As we were pondering our options, SIL telephoned to say that they had just given an architect a, $15,000 retainer — to design the new, expanded, Master bedroom. He said goodbye and hung up the phone.



There are people all over the U.S.A (and the world) struggling to make ends meet (so, you’re not alone and it’s nothing to be ashamed of). From what you describe, I have tremendous respect (and admiration) for your husband. He is a man. If I were you, I would be extremely proud of him (shouting it out to him). His sister is shallow, being very insensitive toward your circumstances. It would be nice for the shoe to be on the other foot, that she could experience what a lot of people (in our world) experience. I have a twin sister and she is understanding, compassionate, etc., a real gem. She has given me money (without my asking for it) and does not ask for it to be paid back (she never even mentions any money that she’s given to me). My relatives have a heart for people (which unfortunately your sister-in-law is lacking). I would not give much thought to what your sister-in-law has to say about your situation – she can’t relate to suffering because she’s had it too easy. Go with people who can empathize with you, being able to encourage you, support you, etc. during this difficult time of your life. From what I can tell, this relative is not a friend (or acting in a very loving way). You don’t have time for such people.

Ox Drover

Dear Brazilb69, I’ m with bluejay, you have a JEWEL of a husband and regardless of how much or how little you have iin the way of material possessions versus how much she has, YOU ARE RICK, and she is DESTITUTE AND POOR and without compassion, only concerned with what she has….which ain’t much.

I’m glad your husband realized that his sister is a piece of garbage and hung up on her….but even if he hadn’t, you have got a gem in such a man who would work that hard for you and your children. A man who is willing to “lower4 himself” to take a position well under his capabilities and income potential just to take care of his responsibilities…and then get more work, and deliver papers, etc. So give your husband a big hug and tell him how wonderful he is and how much You appreciate him and what he does for you and the kids.

Keep on keeping on and realize that you are not alone in your down sizing of your living costs. There are lots of us out there, and I’ve made some wonderful improvements that were almost NO cost to cut my utility bills….small things that together add up and my utillity bills are the lowest they have EVER been even though prices have gone up since we moved into this house in 1994. There are lots of web sites you can get on to get hints for lowering your costs for almost no cost…and you can do it yourself as well. It pays off really well in savings to your bills.

My primary clothing shopping is done at good will…and my son and I live quite comfortably on a “poverty level” income. So look and see what you can “earn” in tax free money by saving here and there on various bills. It actually can become a challenge and kind of fun! Good luck, and write that biatch off, you guys need her like another hole in your head! LOL


Healing is different for everybody. Measurement of healing is different as well. Like setting up milstones some kind of indication that I am healing. I go back and forth, hopefully more forward and less backward. I have not talked to spath for more than 2 years. But since our life was so comingled that everyday smaller things are reminder of life I had with him. Holidays were horrible.

But then I need to look at smaller blessingsand focus on them hard, so I stay focus. Like I had wonderful New years eve with friends, my new year day was peaceful. Nobody I mean nobody’s mood swings and craziness was ruining my eve and days. I do what I feel like, and I don’t if I don’t feel like to. No constant pressure on my brain anymore due to the fact I am compromising in wrong doing, or by getting bullied by him.

I feel I am more control of my children without feeling guilty. Like I am able set boundary, set structure around them, able to say NO to them without feeling threatened that they will hate me.

My life is my life, my saving is mine, I decide my expense not him, and if I don’t want spned $100 on a dinner, I don’t.

Like choice to live your life the way you want without any dark cloud on your head is healing. And I want to keep myself looking at all these things as a simple pleasure of life in mind conciously, because we lose site of these very easily and dive in to our sorrow quickly.

Keep living peacefully!!!


what a lovely, lovely post. absolutely inspirational.
without intruding on your boundaries, I’d like to ask for a ((hug)).
and xxoo too.


Thanks skylar hug back to you as well. This site has helped me a lot in looking at things I refused to look at and was a lost soul, since I didn’t understand what had happened/

Thanks all of you being there for all of us.

with regards


Forgiveness gave me weakness. It happenes, whenever I felt like I forgave him, I wanted to call him, hug him, like I did during our marriage. Whenever I forgave him I wanted us to make up and want to behave like nothing happend.

So forgiveness still has same effect on me, which is counter productive in my healing. So instead of forgiving him, I want to get to a point, that even he comes in front of me, I will look beyound him, unconciously, like he is a total stranger to him, what he does or doesn’t do who is he with or not, whether he is alive or dead, doesn’t mean anything to me.

I don’t sound like a good person, but I don’t beleive in forgiving a criminal, yes I want to forget them, like I never knew them…..


I understand, my heart.
Forgiveness looked that way to me too. for my whole life. And it is what dragged me back down.

Now it looks different. Today, I look at forgiveness the way I look at termites, slugs or coyotes. These are creatures that destroy what I value. It isn’t their fault. It’s their nature. I understand. And I kill them anyway. Not that I kill spaths, but what’s important is that we understand and don’t take it personally.


Ido understand that he is a different type of person with zero remourse, and it is not something he may be doing intionally, I do feel sorry for him that because the way he is, he drags people away from him, so he is the one who will exit this world alone.

But it doesn’t take any less effect what he has done, and impact of that will be there… It is like a murderer kills somebody and we all say he didn’t know what he was doing, may be true, but it doesn’t mean somebody didn’t lose his/her life.


I don’t know if I’m in a position yet to give advice on sociopath’s, but bitches, yes.
The less you and your hubbie have to do with her, the better. While I agree its up to your husband to be the one who ends the relationship with his sister, which ends the abuse he clearly does not need, you can support and encourage him. It sounds like he is on the right path.
Good luck.


Sky, it’s not the nature of either termites, slugs or coyotes to destroy what you value… it is their nature to survive, and it sometimes happens that what you value is in their territory and a means to survive. But true, they don’t know any better.

And yet, I cannot compare this to a spath’s nature. A coyote, termite and slug do not have a cognitive ego, cannot reason through actions. Even if spaths lack empathy, they cognitively know they are hurting someone, and some even have a duping delight in it.

Myheart, a spath murdering someone is imo not comparable to say someone who is truly psychotic, schizophrenic or impaired in their intelligence. A spath knows very well he is murdering someone and that it is bad, but feels he can just because… A psychotic person feels his life is in physical danger by some imagined threat and acts out of defence as far as he knows. Same for someone schizophrenic. And someone impaired in their intelligence may not even know his own force when responding in anger. A spath is not dillusional and knows his strength full well. They just lack the capacity to care, and in some cases even take enjoyment in it.


Darwin’s mom,
its true that spaths can make choices, whereas other parasites and predators cannot because they don’t have that type of cognition.

Yet there are similarities. Both feel entitled to take what is in “their territory”. Although spaths use their cognition to make their choices and strategize how they will achieve their ends, I think the impulse for their behavior comes from a sense of entitlement and a feeling of fear.

The spath’s intellect is used in the same way that the jaws of a termite, slug or coyote is used: in the service of appeasing their hunger. Except in the spath, it is an insatiable emotional hunger that they seek to appease. It makes them feel entitled to consume and destroy whomever looks weak enough to take on.

Ox Drover

My heart,

The word “forgiveness” has different emotional meanings to different people. To me it means to “get the bitterness against them out of my heart, but not to ‘forget’ or to trust.” It simply means I am no longer bitter and hateful inside myself, I ACCEPT what the past was and it is past, but I no longer want a relationship with them and I no longer trust them in a good sense.

Indifference to them is the ultimate to be desired state where we really could care less about them one way or the other, and if we ran into them it would not wound us or cause us anxiety, they would just be a NOTHING. I am sort of there most of the time with a few of these folks, because the wounds they did to me were not that deep and they are no longer important in my life An old boss, an old boy friend, my ex husband after 30+ years, etc….I am INDIFFERENT TO. To others, it would upset me to see them, bring back unhappy memories. But NC helps with that because we are not in contact with them, unless you run into them in a store in town or something along that line. NC protects us.

I’m glad that you are getting on with your life and with your children and functioning again. That is the GOAL of healing. God bless.


Sky, I think ‘insatiable emotional hunger’ is an apt point to make.

I “understand” how and why a spath does certain things when I try to imagine their shallow inner emotional life. When a person has no inner rich life, then it’s imo logical to be ‘bored’ all the time and to counter the boredom with outside stimuli.

Even before I knew what a sociopath was exactly, I noted how often my ex-spath would mention being bored. I kinda never understood that. I can sit in complete ease and enjoy sitting by myself for hours, and perform a certain task for a long time. Of course I need human contact, and be active as well. But it was evident that it was just impossible for him to do that.

Once I learned about sociopathy and how one of the hallmarks for psychopathy is boredom, I finally understood it, and I understood why I could enjoy and not be bored even doing nothing for hours and he could not at all. I have a rich inner emotional life. There’s always something going on inside of me. He needed external stimuli to feel anything.

For me that is the chore issue for a sociopath and what makes him or her so dangerous. They cannot ever be stable, will take immense risks and why even when relationships don’t work out anymore they’d hang on at least to cause drama and fights.

It is the sole part I pity him for. He’ll never know how it feels to be so alive inside that you can sit still for hours and have a whole emotional adventure happening inside of you for no outside cause at all.


I would challenge those who say that “forgiveness” makes them weak. I don’t think true forgiveness ever makes a person weak. Rather the opposite, harboring resentment and anger takes its toll on a person and make them spiritually and physically weak.

It is not forgiveness that causes a person to make bad choices. It is poor judgment. You can forgive someone but choose to have nothing to do with them because you don’t want people like that in your life – you want better for yourself. Why is it that if you forgive someone, you necessarily have to invite them into your life?

Forgiving a person sets you free emotionally so you are not held hostage by your own resentment. Resentment is a self-imposed prison. We get to be “right” and the other person is “wrong”. But we don’t get to be truly happy and released from the person. It is a way of staying emotionally attached to the person. We can talk about how horrible they are and what they did to us and how they ruined our lives. But if we stay stuck with this view of our lives, we will be the ones ruining our own lives. Once they are out of our lives, it is really up to us to decide how much mental energy to give them. So to me, I look at forgiveness as what is left when you let go of resentment. You can feel indifference or compassion. Or you might even feel gratitude for the lesson that person taught you as they passed through your life. Why on earth would you EVER want to feel gratitude toward a spath? Or a malignant narcissist? Because it contributes toward YOUR peace and happiness to feel gratitude. I has nothing to do with the other person. It speaks to YOUR character and how YOU deal with your life issues.


Stargazer, Oxy explains it well.

I’ll never get it across my lips that I’ll forgive my ex-spath. But I don’t feel resentment anymore either. Instead I do feel a gratefulness regarding several past events, incuding him… because I doubt I would have started on the life changes otherwise. And I have forgiven myself.

But as Oxy said, “forgiving” has a different meaning to different people. What I internally feel when I forgive someone else, I know I’ll never feel for my ex-spath. But that doesn’t mean I’m resentful, or not truly happy.


I guess I am still away from forgiveness stage for spath. It will take time for me. I have started seeing the benefit for not having this person in my life anymore. I do see now when people say when go through difficult time, you come out stronger and your path changes completely. I see that as well. I am doing things now which I would have never imagined doing with spath’s presense, even when we were not living together. He took ownership on all my waking hours, not time left for creativity.

So I guess more success I get in achieving my life in positiveness, less resentment I will feel the hurt he caused me.

It is a process in action. Yes I may get to a point I will not care about his past actions, becasue I will be stading at a different hight in my life, and he may be too small to even notice.

Ox Drover

Stargazer, I am going to quote a part of your above post that I think sums it up totally for ME (maybe not others)

“It is not forgiveness that causes a person to make bad choices. It is poor judgment. You can forgive someone but choose to have nothing to do with them because you don’t want people like that in your life ”“ you want better for yourself. Why is it that if you forgive someone, you necessarily have to invite them into your life?

Forgiving a person sets you free emotionally so you are not held hostage by your own resentment. Resentment is a self-imposed prison.”

I kreally like that last sentence RESENTMENT IS A SELF-IMPOSED PRISON.

The Bible tells us to “pray for those that persecute you”—and it is HARD to do such a thing. In fact, I would write out prayers for my egg donor and read them aloud and I DID NOT MEAN ONE WORD OF IT. I DID NOT WANT GOD TO BLESS HER, I HATED HER,. but as time went on my heart began to soften as I did start to forgive her…want a relationship? NO!!! TRUST HER? Again a BIG NO, but my resentment started to lessen and I started to FEEL MORE PEACE. Our praying for them, forgiving them, is NOT ABOUT THEM, it is about US and releasing ourselves from the bitterness and resentment that POISONS OUR SOULS.

That’s what took me so long to start to feel peace was the RESENTMENT I held for so many situations and so many people, but letting go of the resentment has freed me from that bitterness. Freed me from even thinking about these people any more. They are not part of my PRESENT. Thank you God!~


For someone who has trouble with boundaries, it is resentment that keeps me safe. Maybe once I learn how to set firm boundaries, AND feel safe, forgiveness will be a piece of cake.

Furthermore, when I have confronted my parents about what they did, they added insult to injury by lying about it. Blatantly.

I asked them 3 times why they didn’t tell me that they overheard spath say he was after my money. 1st answer, “you wouldn’t have believed us.”

A few weeks later, I asked again. 2nd answer, “of course we told you, we told you many times.”

So which is it? They didn’t tell me, because I wouldn’t have believed them? or they did and I don’t remember it?

Last time I asked, a year later, my dad replied, “Well how much money did you give your mother?” (from my insurance settlement) My mother laughed, “Oh about $500!”

WTF? what does that have to do with anything?

As it turns out, I didn’t get the settlement until almost 2 years after they over heard spath. So it wasn’t really about money, either. It was about control and envy.

So Star, I submit to you that forgiveness was made easier for you by your stepfather because he didn’t respond or you don’t recall his response when you confronted him. If he had gas lighted and laughed at you, it might have felt differently.

I had almost forgiven spath too. Until recently. He began stalking me again. That means he has further plans for my demise. It’s hard to forgive when they keep trying to destroy you.



A few years ago I realized I’d forgiven my stepfather but not my mother. I continued to be resentful toward her because she violated the terms of our agreement when she “apologized” to me, and that was that she would allow me to open up to her about all of my resentments whenever I needed to, for my own healing. So because she wouldn’t listen, I kept my resentments locked up inside. I knew it was a catch 22, but I didn’t know how to get past it. I felt that if I couldn’t express myself to her, I could never get past it. Of course, this put the responsibility for my healing in her court. And we all know how reliable SHE is.

That day, I prayed to have my resentment removed. I asked God what do I have to do to release it? What would it take? The answer I got was that I had to have one more clear communication with my mother telling her how I feel, why I’m angry, and what I need from her to heal our relationship. And I had to be UNATTACHED to the outcome. I wasn’t sending the letter for her – it was for me. In doing this, I had to face my fear of her rejection, dismissal, and disapproval yet one more time. It is the reason I’d avoided doing it for so long.

I sent her that communication in the form of an email. In it, I listed every last thing I was upset about and how it has hurt me over the years and what kind of amends I needed from her.

As expected, she got defensive and told me she was sick of my “hate mail.” But you know what? When I said what I needed to say, I was released. I no longer hated her. We had a few friendly communications in the years that followed, and I felt love in my heart for her. But I found that I really did not want to be very “chummy” with her due to her denial. So I just distanced myself. I did it caringly and lovingly, but I did it just the same. I feel good now about my ability to keep my cool if she ever calls me again. About a year ago, she emailed me and told me she’d had a heart attack. I replied, “I’m so sorry to hear, and I hope you take care of yourself.” Then she emailed me saying she and her bf wanted to pay my way to come visit them. My reply was, “Thanks for your generous offer, but unfortunately, I’m not in a position to travel right now.” That was our last communication, and it was friendly.

I totally understand what you mean about needing to set healthy boundaries if you forgive. But here’s something for you to just consider: If you release the resentment that is protecting your heart, you can have faith in your ability to take care of yourself, even if you are rusty or don’t know how. Somewhere inside of you is a wise woman who knows how to set healthy boundaries. You may need to write your mom a letter like I did in order to get the anger out of your heart. I don’t know what it will take for you. But I think if you even start thinking about it and contemplating it, you might possibly feel something lift.

I think the question we all need to ask ourselves is, “Do we want to by happy?” Making ourselves happy sometimes means doing something very difficult, like forgiving the enemy. If we’re not ready, at least we can acknowledge that we’re not ready and figure out what we need to do first. This makes healing a proactive process. It puts the ball back in OUR court. We are all SO powerful if only we would realize it.


Sky, I wanted to add that the communication you have with your parents doesn’t have to be in reality. You can meditate and get in touch with their spirit and have the conversation with them in spirit. I do believe you can talk with someone’s spiritual self, whether the person is living or dead, and on some level, they will hear you. Remember, the conversation is not for the purpose of having them behave a certain way. It’s just to get the anger out of your system, and get to the love that is underneath it. In my mother’s case, I thought there was a small chance that she might listen. I was wrong. So I now have no desire to ever have this talk with her again.


I had the conversation. It’s the one I posted above. They will never admit to their faulty behavior although they are keenly aware of it.

They CHOOSE to behave the way they do because of the emptiness in their souls. It makes them obsess over control.

So perceived in that way, I do forgive them. But I make sure to keep a bit of resentment tucked away in case I feel a weak boundary coming on. Because they do attack again and again. Their anger comes from my rebellion against their control when I was 15. And now it is compounded because I’ve seen them for what they are and it angers them.


Sky, it doesn’t matter what they do with your communication because the communication shouldn’t be for them – it is for YOU! It should release you from them once and for all, so they can just be the people who raised you, some people that you used to know. If you are still angry at them, you are still not free. They are lowlifes, and you are better than that. Why should you allow them to dampen your happiness though resentment?


But Star, how does communicating with a brick wall do any good?

How does it do me any good? I know what they’ve done.

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