What a difficult question this is—exactly what defines the sociopath?
 Joseph Neuman Ph.D, psychopathy researcher, in an extensive interview (see link to this interview previously provided by Donna Anderson: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmZgnCHweLM) addresses this and other questions about psychopaths.
Neuman’s research, if I understand him correctly (and I did not find him to be particularly clear in his explanations) yields a picture of the psychopath, surprisingly, not as primarily emotionally defective, but rather as emotionally defective secondary to certain forms of attentional problems.
Neuman makes some interesting and, to my mind, somewhat puzzling observations. For instance, and consistent with his basic premise, he actually suggests that psychopaths may be more inclined to genuinely assist someone they perceive to be in need than non-psychopaths. Did I hear that correctly? I think so.
Neuman also suggests that the psychopath’s capacity for this kind of humane response is unfortunately, or effectively, nullified (in others’ eyes) by his more antisocial, knucklehead behaviors. Did I hear this correctly, too? I think I did.
Neuman’s basic premise—again, if I understand him correctly—is that psychopaths aren’t so much fundamentally defective emotionally as much as their emotional capacities which, alas, may be much more normal than otherwise appreciated, are essentially obscured, effectively immobilized, by their over-attention, their over-focus on their particular, momentary interest(s).
So, to be clear, if I’m understanding Neuman, he’s suggesting that psychopaths (at least some, if not many) may indeed have normal emotions, perhaps even a normal range of emotions; the problem is that they don’t “attend” to their emotions because they aren’t “cueing” to the signals that should steer them to recognize, and be better regulated, by their emotions.
Neuman suggests that when psychopaths can be directed to focus on these cues and signals, his research shows that they can and do access a range of more normal emotions. This should and, Neuman says, does result in their coming under the better, and more appropriate, stewardship of their emotions (my italics, not his).
Now on one hand, Neuman says he’s not denying that an emotional deficit lies at the core of psychopathy. Yet it seems to me that this is exactly what he’s questioning! What he is saying in the interview, it seems to me, again and again, is that, at the heart of psychopathy is less an emotional deficit than a kind of attentional deficit, a signal-attuning deficit, the consequence of which is to detach the psychopath from connection to his underlying capacity to feel, and be better regulated in his behavior, by his emotions.
Now perhaps I’ve badly misinterpreted what I heard Neuman saying. I will leave that to other LoveFraud readers to weigh in.
Also, consistent with what I hear him saying throughout the interview, Neuman takes the rather radical stance that once a psychopath, not necessarily always, hopelessly, permanently a psychopath.
He suggests, rather, that if interventions can be developed that, for instance, can help psychopaths more effectively attune to the signals that will steer their attention to their healthier emotions, well then”¦NASA, we may have arrived at something of a cure, or palliative, for psychopathy.
He envisions interventions, if I understand him properly, that would effectively liberate the humanity within the psychopath, which is obscured, if not immobilized, by his attentional problems.
Because again, he is not saying that psychopaths necessarily lack emotions, or even a range of normal emotions; remember, he goes so far as to say that some psychopaths, including those with whom he’s worked, have shown evidence of an even greater (and genuine!) responsiveness to those in need than non-psychopaths. The problem, he stresses, is that psychopaths, by virtue of their overfocus on present, reward-driven interests, are basically disconnected from their emotions. At least this is what I understand him to be saying.
Neuman makes another interesting observation. Citing Hervey Cleckley, MD, he suggests that the psychopath may have an even weaker drive to acquire what he wants than the normal individual. The problem, he says, is that their “restraints” are even weaker than their “urges.” He describes this as a case of their “weaker urges breaking through even weaker restraints.”
Neuman also asserts that you can’t define psychopathy by behaviors and actions, including, he says, actions like “defrauding” people. I understand his general point—the idea that psychopathy’s essence may be more a reflection of a mentality than specific actions.
However, a pattern of certain actions, especially exploitive actions, can reflect, can reveal, the mind—and the disorder—behind it.
As I understand Neuman, let us say we have someone who is in the process of perpetrating a cold-blooded armed robbery—and not, say, the first he’s perpetrated. He’s prepared to bind, blindfold and shoot all potential witnesses to the crime. This way he can take what he came for and not get fingered, identified, in the act. Let us say he has done this before, remorselessly.
Neuman seems to suggest that, horrible as this act would be, it’s not necessarily indicative of a psychopath. Maybe he’s right.
But let’s say this individual is a Hare-diagnosed psychopath. Neuman also seems to be proposing the idea that the killer’s primary issue isn’t necessarily the absence, somewhere, of appropriate and potentially self-regulating emotion; rather, he’s so overfocused on taking care of the business at hand—robbing, and removing witnesses to the robbery—that he’s unable to attune to the kinds of signals that would lead him to recognize, and fall under the prosocial influence, of his more normal, humane emotions.
So that, if somehow, in the course of the perpetrating of his crime, you could somehow cue him to the signals that might lead him to recognize his more “humane” emotions, you might, theoretically, be able to short-circuit the robbery and coldblooded murdering of the witnesses!
Really? That’s an interesting concept, but it’s not one that strikes me as necessarily plausible. In general, as I listened to Neuman, I found that he depicted the psychopath specifically, and psychopathy in general, in terms that seemed to me much too benign; as if the psychopath, in Neuman’s view and based on his research, isn’t necessarily lacking in humanity as much as he’s lacking certain qualities that would enable his humanity to express itself in more visible, self-regulating, prosocial ways?
What was your take on the interview?
(This article is copyrighted (c) 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns is strictly for convenience’s sake and not to suggest that females aren’t capable of the behaviors and attitudes discussed.)
Â
OxDrover;
Totally fits my experience, albeit limited as well. The particular “want” of my x-spath was a relationship, something impossible for him but not something he was goiving up upon.
I understand now too how what I was saying to him early on must have made him feel at that moment that he had met the right guy, gven that I was not grilling him about his past. Moreover, I went as far as to telling him that I assumed that any gay guy in his mid-30s was going to have some kind of past, and I did not care. Obviously, I meant within reason. I had know idea I was taling to somebody with a lot in his past.
You comment about wanting whatever enjoyment they sense others might be getting is also true and explains why they may use passive-agressive and covert-agressive tactics t undermine the happiness of others.
The first time he came to my place I was so happy. Within 10 minutes he destroyed my mood by dissing just about everything. Of course, I was left questioning whether I went too fast, but nothing was unreasonable.
Part of it may also be them knowing that deep-down there is something wrong with them. They know they are a fraud.
My x-spath wants somebody to love him, but he fears that if anyone knew the truth about him, they would not.
Sister:
I got a call a few weeks ago from a friend of spaths. He obviously ‘wanted’ some info on us…..and disguised it as wanting to ‘borrow’ a jetski…..
he was definately fishing, and I’m sure spath sent him to hijack our jetski, so spath could take it out of state and ‘hide’ it.
He started going on about hearing from spath in Mid March….(Didn’t mention his recent conversations with spath) and how well he was doing…..on his way to florida and had a young chick he was bragging about….blah, blah…..
Anyways……to enlighten him a bit about spath….and to shut his dumb ass up….
i said to him……
“tell me, since you’ve known spath…..every meeting, every conversation…….are you left with the feeling of….Gee, that guy has a great life, I wish I could be him?”
He paused…..and said…..YEAH!
I took the opportunity to fill in the ‘blanks’……
of spaths ‘great’ life.
I said…..so…you last heard from him Mid March? Did he happen to mention that he had just spent March 1-12 in jail in xx state?
SILENCE…..
Did he happen to mention that he lost everything in the divorce and his children want NOTHING to do with him and have’nt spoken to him in almost 3 year?
SILENCE……
DId he happen to mention a stalking and harassment order in place that ONE child applied for himself and the rest of us sought on our own….in place for the past 1.5 year…..and the extended order of protection that has been in place for the past almost 3 years??
SILENCE……
Did he happen to mention the fact that he’s 48 and has NOTHING to show expect his drug activities for his whole adult life?
SILENCE……
DID HE Mention that he’s facing 15 years in prison for felony drug charges?
SILENCE……
DID HE?
spath friend said ……..um…..no….he never mentioned any of that…..
I said…..well……how great of a life does he REALLY have?
Knowing this…..are you still left with….Gee, I want his life????
It’s all a portrayal…..of who he wants to be…..but not work for it. It’s all lies and manipulations and you’ve been DUPED!
Don’t call me again!!!
Click!
Gosh, EB, you are soooo cynical!!! What on earth would make you think the X’s life suks canal water? Hee hee bawhahaha And hanging up on his bud for calling and telling you what a great life X has…what a cute young chick he has and so on? I just don’t understand why you think a couple of weeks and a felony drug charge or two would be such a downer. I mean really, it’s nothing! Not when you have such a GREAT life! bawhahahaha
I’m not sure what ErinBrock’s story about the phone call has to do with what I said, but it’s a great story. Unless it’s to show me that part of the trick of living a double life is indeed compartmentalization. This guy who called was baffled!
OxDrover says: “So if having a “feeling” can be defined as any of the above, then I’d agree that they do have”but otherwise, I’ve never seen any honest caring in any of them.” And they can sense when WE feel something they don’t, like sexual closeness.
IF we were taken in by that show of “feelings,” it must have seemed very genuine (to us) at the time. (Otherwise, we’re in the wrong support group — the one for people who fall for obviously fake love is down the hall: “Cheesy Pick-Up Lines Victims Anonymous.”)
The only way we know that “feelings” act wasn’t real is that the person acted differently later.
Exactly Newman’s point: The psychopath can shape-shift like that, actually being genuine in his feelings of love at one moment, and being someone else entirely later.
He doesn’t leave out the possibility that some people can fake feelings — that is, act loving while scheming underneath it all. Heck, I think I could manage that if I needed to. But the results of his research show that people already diagnosed as psychopaths, by the Hare scale, in prison, consistently can’t multitask like that. They feel or think one thing now, and another thing later.
Either way, it would look like the same thing to the victim, right? He seemed so loving, and then I found out he just wanted to con me.
The part of this his theory doesn’t explain, still puzzling to anyone who’s dealt with a psychopath, is that dominant “agenda.” Feelings may come and go, but they keep going back to that agenda, their purpose for being there — to rip you off in some way. It’s like they suddenly set aside the feelings because they’ve got a job to do. You’re not going to see those feelings overtake the agenda. They’ll even use the loving history they’ve built with you to further the agenda.
Maybe the agenda is the one consistent part of this person, the one thing that holds them together as an identity. They can’t let go of it.
It’s that agenda that is inexcusable. Where did they learn that it was OK to rape or steal, even if they have no “feelings” when they’re doing it? When did they set that as a mission in life?
Newman’s answer seems to be that, while they don’t have a tremendous drive to succeed in a life of crime, they don’t have any inhibitions, either. See it, take it. Simple as that. The door is unlocked; walk in — my sister. Men are stupid that way; take advantage of them — Susan. I need $10K to start a business; there’s my kind-hearted sister-in-law — my uncle. Easy pickin’s.
I’m guessing they get it from whatever the dominant theme was in their family. No ability to resist it, without an i.d. of their own. That’s why my uncle steals but doesn’t lie about other people, but my sister lies about other people but would never steal. Different rewards or goals, same illness.
One of the the many things my x-spath and I had in common was a bipolar friend in the hospital. Thus one day he was off to visit his friend and me off to visit mine.
My x-spath seemed genuinely concerned about his friend. He even said in an email “my heart pains to see him like this…”
He constantly asked about my bipolar friend and the one friend of mine he met. To be honest, I really did not show any such to the friends of his I met…
Yet, a couple weeks later quite suddenly drops me while I was facing the single most difficult moment in my life, very sick while facing the strong possibility of being HIV+.
IMHO, only a sociopath could or would do such a thing. Thankfully, I did find a resource that does truly understand. There are few out there.
This is why Neuman’s views are important. Sociopaths can warm themselves in the sun enough so as to hide their true cold-blooded nature. However, it is always there if you are savy enough to correctly read the warning signs.
Again, mine was, among others, “jeez this guy has intimacy issues…” That should have been it for me.
To this day I wonder what might have happened had I not become sick and he did not become my “caretaker.” Would I, after a couple more dates, have grown tired of his coldness? Would I have finally woken up to all the red flags?
Dear Sister,
In some ways they are complex and different, in others, they are simple and so much alike. Yet, with all these differences, there is an underlying THEME and that is that they have no conscience, are totally self centered, do not seem to have a real grasp that others have any rights, or that others should be treated with consideration. They just don’t get the concept. CONTROL of others is their agenda. Self Gratification is the reward. (whatever the prize is–money, position, sex, status, sowing discord just to watch it unroll its ugly self)
Dr. Robert Hare said that they “know the words, but don’t get the music.” So trying to understand how a tone deaf person would try to sing, would even want to sing, or could even understand the concepts of tone…or how a person blind from birth could understand or appreciate colors—is almost impossible for us who live in a colorful world with music.
Their comprehension of emotions and relationships I think is like that blind person’s concept of colors—the blind person may be able to name the colors of the rainbow, or even say “an apple is red” but still they don’t really have a grasp of what red is, much less the shadings of red. Just the WORDS but not the accompanying music or appreciation. (mixing metaphors there a bit)
Studies have indicated that oxytocin (the bonding hormone) which is released during child birth, nursing a child, or sex to name a few times, is not “normally” processed in the psychopath’s brain which apparently has fewer receptors for this hormone than normal people. Without this hormone being utilized animals will abandon their young or fail to recognize the baby is theirs. There is no reason to think that most humans are any less subject to the response to the chemical than any other mammal. However, the “bonding” that takes place when the chemical is released with normal people does not happen with psychopaths. There may be some qualitative differences in “psychopaths” where there might be some short term bonds in some Ps, but over all, the definition of Ps is that they don’t “bond” normally with others, but see others more as prey or for their own use. If any of that makes any sense to anyone but me. LOL
I think they do have consciences, can get out of themselves, and do grasp that others have rights. Just not all the time.
That’s what makes them so confusing, and why we have this misconception that they’re that way, all the way.
When they’re that way, they’re all the way.
They bond normally with others, and then they don’t. They see all the rainbow’s colors, and then they don’t.
If I agree with you that Ps are always in their P skin, then all the Ps I have reported on this site are not Ps.
And I know definitely that they are Ps. They could take you apart limb-to-limb and not feel a thing. And yet, at other times, and with other emotions, they feel.
Which emotions they feel and which they are able to shut off probably varies by the individual.
Dear Sister,
I think we will have to disagree on whether or not they have a conscience. I think the LACK OF A CONSCIENCE is a defining factor of psychopathy.
There are people who are HIGH IN P TRAITS who would not qualify as a “diagnosable psychopath” and yet they are NOT the kind of people you would want as a family member, spouse or friend. They are still TOXIC though not “really” a psychopath.
I think that many of us tend to label TOXIC people as “psychopaths” and they really aren’t but they may have some vestige of a conscience or be able at least on a minimal level to bond. That is one of the dangers of “labeling” people as anything.
When is someone black? Is Barack Obama black or white? He has a parent that is white and one that is black, so why is he black instead of Mixed race, or not half and half? See what I mean? Labels never entirely fit or describe anyone. So someone who is HIGH IN PSYCHOPATHIC TRAITS but not really a true “card carrying” psychopath in all dimensions who is labeled a “p” may not truly be representive of the label.
The PCL-R I think is more diagnosic and reliable in predicting the recidivism of criminals, or the labeling of criminal and violent psychopaths than of the ones on the street…but at the same time, psychopaths on the street and the criminal ones do have a lot of traits in common.
Also there is a continuum of the depth of the condition. Sort of like “Fat”—there is a great variety of people considered “fat” vs normal weight. First what is “normal” and what is “fat?” Is a 1 pound over DESIRED weight a definitive point over normal? How about a person who is 400 pounds over normal? Where is the cut off point. Of course it is arbitrary as are all “definitions” of this sort and one click left or right of this point doesn’t make much difference, but many clicks do.
Many of the jerks and toxic people that I talk about as “psychopaths” are probably not “qualified” as REAL psychopaths, but they come close and have a high number of traits of psychopaths…but yet I “loosely label” them along with the REAL card carrying dangerous psychopaths like my P-son the killer as “psycho0paths.”
Here or in our private lives we can “label” someone whatever we want to label them or think about them—and as long as we don’t identify them illegally or slander them we can do as we please. However a clinical diagnosis is a different matter and should be considered more carefully and use a definitive set of criteria to determine who is what.
The bottom line is though, that no matter what is the agreed upon definition, there will be examples of ones who are VERY close to it…and in the end, in our REAL LIVES that diagnosis or label doesn’t matter—“TOXIC PERSON” IS CLOSE ENOUGH OF A LABEL TO ADVISE US TO GET AWAY FROM THEM!
I’m really not talking about the same thing you are at all, Ox. A totally different topic: What CAUSES the “lack of conscience”? And does it kick in 100% of the time, or some other percentage?
You’re right, labels don’t get close to the truth, which is what I’ve been trying to say all along. The truth is a jumble of categories, degrees, and circumstances.
I do actually believe my Ps lack conscience. The just don’t lack it all the time. And they don’t connect the dots from one state to the other, which to me is even more creepy.
I wonder why that’s so hard to understand, or seems to mean I’m excusing or minimizing the behaviors of psychopaths or how confusing they are.
Because I’ve said over and over, it makes them less easy to deal with, not more.
I actually was arguing there was a continuum, before, repeatedly — and most people here disagreed with me then. Because my sister isn’t capable of doing these things you describe.
Now I argue there is NO continuum. No difference of degree. A person is either paying attention to an emotion or not. My sister is capable of doing other things than what you describe, but still to an extreme degree. There is no moderate level of that.
And yet I hear the same objection: I’m excusing Ps again.
I think the bottom line is, we’re looking for validation here, not full understanding of what happened. We want someone to say, yes, that P you describe was really horrible. He had no conscience. At all. You were right in leaving him. You noticed something real. And so did I.
The agenda is the mystery part, still. Where does that come from?
I argued that it is the same thing Newman describes about hanging onto emotions, not being able to switch and/or multitask. Ps find an agenda and hang on. The first agendas that occur to all people are the narcissistic ones. We just get a better idea, eventually.
I think Newman’s research should be added to the diagnostic criteria, to better smoke out Ps before they do some damage. And then maybe people like me wouldn’t be out there wondering, “Is she really a P?” before she strikes again. If we notice that emotional ADD, it’s time to take cover!
Sister, I think describing them in some ways is like describing the “color green” (or red or blue) we can give the scientific wave lengths that make the color send a signal to the brain that we interpret as “blue”—and even designate the chemical reaction in the brain, but is that really a DESCRIPTION of “blue”? How many blues are there? LOL
I think it is the same as describing the psychopaths, there is a similarity between them, and yet there are so many different SHADES of them. Plus, they FAKE a lot of “emotions” and really don’t “feel” them (we think!) but how can we be sure?
Actually, at this point in research there isn’t quite enough objective data to totally say for sure “this is that, and that is this” so a lot of what we think is pure conjecture, observation, and opinion—I would love to be around in 100 years when this thing is better understood.
The TAKE HOME LESSON is that we cannot “deal with” these people and must for self protection get away from them. So, ultimately what we call them isn’t as important as being able to recognize the signs that they are TOXIC–manipulative behavior, pathological liar, lack of apparent care for the damage they do, apparent glee at causing damage, high in anger, low in impulse control, violence toward others, emotional violence toward others, lack of responsiblity, and so on. Those things we can recognize in some degree in a psychopath or other toxic personality.