What a difficult question this is—exactly what defines the sociopath?
 Joseph Neuman Ph.D, psychopathy researcher, in an extensive interview (see link to this interview previously provided by Donna Anderson: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmZgnCHweLM) addresses this and other questions about psychopaths.
Neuman’s research, if I understand him correctly (and I did not find him to be particularly clear in his explanations) yields a picture of the psychopath, surprisingly, not as primarily emotionally defective, but rather as emotionally defective secondary to certain forms of attentional problems.
Neuman makes some interesting and, to my mind, somewhat puzzling observations. For instance, and consistent with his basic premise, he actually suggests that psychopaths may be more inclined to genuinely assist someone they perceive to be in need than non-psychopaths. Did I hear that correctly? I think so.
Neuman also suggests that the psychopath’s capacity for this kind of humane response is unfortunately, or effectively, nullified (in others’ eyes) by his more antisocial, knucklehead behaviors. Did I hear this correctly, too? I think I did.
Neuman’s basic premise—again, if I understand him correctly—is that psychopaths aren’t so much fundamentally defective emotionally as much as their emotional capacities which, alas, may be much more normal than otherwise appreciated, are essentially obscured, effectively immobilized, by their over-attention, their over-focus on their particular, momentary interest(s).
So, to be clear, if I’m understanding Neuman, he’s suggesting that psychopaths (at least some, if not many) may indeed have normal emotions, perhaps even a normal range of emotions; the problem is that they don’t “attend” to their emotions because they aren’t “cueing” to the signals that should steer them to recognize, and be better regulated, by their emotions.
Neuman suggests that when psychopaths can be directed to focus on these cues and signals, his research shows that they can and do access a range of more normal emotions. This should and, Neuman says, does result in their coming under the better, and more appropriate, stewardship of their emotions (my italics, not his).
Now on one hand, Neuman says he’s not denying that an emotional deficit lies at the core of psychopathy. Yet it seems to me that this is exactly what he’s questioning! What he is saying in the interview, it seems to me, again and again, is that, at the heart of psychopathy is less an emotional deficit than a kind of attentional deficit, a signal-attuning deficit, the consequence of which is to detach the psychopath from connection to his underlying capacity to feel, and be better regulated in his behavior, by his emotions.
Now perhaps I’ve badly misinterpreted what I heard Neuman saying. I will leave that to other LoveFraud readers to weigh in.
Also, consistent with what I hear him saying throughout the interview, Neuman takes the rather radical stance that once a psychopath, not necessarily always, hopelessly, permanently a psychopath.
He suggests, rather, that if interventions can be developed that, for instance, can help psychopaths more effectively attune to the signals that will steer their attention to their healthier emotions, well then”¦NASA, we may have arrived at something of a cure, or palliative, for psychopathy.
He envisions interventions, if I understand him properly, that would effectively liberate the humanity within the psychopath, which is obscured, if not immobilized, by his attentional problems.
Because again, he is not saying that psychopaths necessarily lack emotions, or even a range of normal emotions; remember, he goes so far as to say that some psychopaths, including those with whom he’s worked, have shown evidence of an even greater (and genuine!) responsiveness to those in need than non-psychopaths. The problem, he stresses, is that psychopaths, by virtue of their overfocus on present, reward-driven interests, are basically disconnected from their emotions. At least this is what I understand him to be saying.
Neuman makes another interesting observation. Citing Hervey Cleckley, MD, he suggests that the psychopath may have an even weaker drive to acquire what he wants than the normal individual. The problem, he says, is that their “restraints” are even weaker than their “urges.” He describes this as a case of their “weaker urges breaking through even weaker restraints.”
Neuman also asserts that you can’t define psychopathy by behaviors and actions, including, he says, actions like “defrauding” people. I understand his general point—the idea that psychopathy’s essence may be more a reflection of a mentality than specific actions.
However, a pattern of certain actions, especially exploitive actions, can reflect, can reveal, the mind—and the disorder—behind it.
As I understand Neuman, let us say we have someone who is in the process of perpetrating a cold-blooded armed robbery—and not, say, the first he’s perpetrated. He’s prepared to bind, blindfold and shoot all potential witnesses to the crime. This way he can take what he came for and not get fingered, identified, in the act. Let us say he has done this before, remorselessly.
Neuman seems to suggest that, horrible as this act would be, it’s not necessarily indicative of a psychopath. Maybe he’s right.
But let’s say this individual is a Hare-diagnosed psychopath. Neuman also seems to be proposing the idea that the killer’s primary issue isn’t necessarily the absence, somewhere, of appropriate and potentially self-regulating emotion; rather, he’s so overfocused on taking care of the business at hand—robbing, and removing witnesses to the robbery—that he’s unable to attune to the kinds of signals that would lead him to recognize, and fall under the prosocial influence, of his more normal, humane emotions.
So that, if somehow, in the course of the perpetrating of his crime, you could somehow cue him to the signals that might lead him to recognize his more “humane” emotions, you might, theoretically, be able to short-circuit the robbery and coldblooded murdering of the witnesses!
Really? That’s an interesting concept, but it’s not one that strikes me as necessarily plausible. In general, as I listened to Neuman, I found that he depicted the psychopath specifically, and psychopathy in general, in terms that seemed to me much too benign; as if the psychopath, in Neuman’s view and based on his research, isn’t necessarily lacking in humanity as much as he’s lacking certain qualities that would enable his humanity to express itself in more visible, self-regulating, prosocial ways?
What was your take on the interview?
(This article is copyrighted (c) 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns is strictly for convenience’s sake and not to suggest that females aren’t capable of the behaviors and attitudes discussed.)
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Hey Kim, now maybe you have an early warning sign.
When you notice that somebody keeps going on an impression long after you’ve told them again and again that it’s not the right one, it could be a danger sign.
This is normal in some cases — Oxy and I seem to have talked past each other here, and that’s kind of normal on blogs or heavily charged emotional situations — but I’d keep checking things out if I notice it happening and then that person does something irresponsible. Especially if we already agreed it was the one thing they weren’t going to do.
Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding!
Sister and Kim,
I agree that we have to work with and associate with in the “real world” Ps and other toxic individuals…I’ve worked with, for and had working for me such cases. Some real “snakes in suits,” to hijack the name of Bob Hare’s book by that name, what I meant and didn’t clearly state in “run from them” is that we don’t seek an INTIMATE relationship (marriage, deep friendship etc) with these jerks/Ps—and that if we MUST associate with them we do NOT TRUST them or give them an open opportunity to stab us in the back.
I’ve been in business deals with these people (real psychopaths) and got skinned like a jack rabbit financially and emotionally both because I considered the person trustworthy and a friend as well as business partner. (Once I was even warned by someone I respected!) Didn’t listen….of course! Went on to get REALLY skinned!
I have worked in jobs where I discovered too late my boss was a psychopath, or my great boss left and was replaced by a psychopath (both REAL and just high in traits) in one case after nearly a year of being in denial Ii voluntarily left when I saw it would not get better and I ddn’t want to endure the continual stress of dealing with it. In another case, the psychopathic new boss DESTROYED the entire program I was involved in (A college student health service) and I would have lost my insurance and benefits with “part time” employment. So I left and actually sought and found “weekend option” (24 hours a week in 2 12 hour days) with full benefits and pay for the part time work. It turned out to be a blessing from God as a few months later My beloved step dad was diagnosed with cancer and I was available to go through his medical care with him as a support for him. It gave us some wonderful quality time together before his death.
I also got to spend the last 18 months of my marriage home with my husband 5 days a week and that was wonderful too. So actually this “tragedy” (so viewed at the time because I loved my work at the college) turned out to be a “blessing in disguise.”
In fact, if you look at the relationship with the psychopaths, there is usually, if not always, a lesson to be learned that, though costly to get, is or can be very beneficial to us!
One of the things I have seen as I have gone through life is that spiritual/mental/emotional “exercise” and “problem solving” while it might be painful is for the soul of the person like exercise for the muscles is to the body! It strengthens us.
People who have never had a problem to solve, a grief to over come, or a disappointment to endure doesn’t build the strength that overcoming those challenges can IMHO.
Kim, I know your story a bit more than Sister’s, and having known you longer, have been able to SEE some BIG changes from when you first came here. If you compared the early writings and postings here to the ones you do now and have for the past while, one would not think they were by the same person. You have grown, calmed down, found some peace, etc. that you didn’t have when you first came here. God alone knows that is also SO true for me.
I agree too with you Sister that learning the red flags or anything that can indicate DANGER! Is paramount to learning about them. Learning to honor our “gut instincts” and validate ourselves, to set boundaries and the other things many of us have done, or not done, which allowed them to prey on us. In some cases that may mean almost literally “re-parenting” ourselves because we didn’t get the nurturing and love we needed as children because our early environment was so dysfunctional and we didn’t know it was not “normal.”
There are so many aspects I think it is like the layers of a huge onion, and must be peeled a layer at a time. IT seems to me that as soon as I get one problem peeled back and “solved” there is another deeper one to deal with, but working on the healing during the chaos of being “close” to them, and being emotionally/mentally/spiritually and even physically distraught makes it almost impossible to deal with them in such a way like Sister said, and “remain in control” of it rather than give them the control they want.
I am very fortunate that I was able to retire instead of stay in the high stress job that I literally could not safely function in due to the short term memory problems and other symptoms of PTSD after the crash. If I had been forced to also work with these high stress and highly dysfunctional people even only 2 days a week and take patient’s lives in my hands I don’t know what would have happened…but it would NOT have been pretty I am sure! I admire you Sister that you are able to function in the work-a-day world even in dealing with toxic individuals and keeping your head calm and cool.
Even after much progress and a significant amount of healing time, I am still different than before the plane crash that killed my husband. Long term and high intensity stress does a number on our brains and bodies. Coming to terms with those loses in addition to others is also a part of the ongoing process. How fast and how well we recover depends I think on a lot of different aspects of our make ups both intellectually, spiritually, emotionally, physically, mentally, support network strength, age, general health, financial status, other life stressors etc.
Love Fraud has been a great support network for me and both reading and blogging here has focused my resources on healing myself and encouraging others to heal as well.
Exploring the why they are what they are as well as defining what they are is interesting, helpful and no longer holds the emotional triggers for me that it once did. Now it is more an intellectual exploration than an emotional one. Just like we might talk about spiders scientifically, but if we had once been bitten by a poison one and spent months in intensive care, in fear of our lives, there might have been a long period in there where we couldn’t have even SAID THE WORD SPIDER without being triggered into a panic state! LOL
Eloquently and compassionately stated, Oxy. You have truly come a long way, I gather.
LOL! I keep my head calm and cool? Tell that to my boss at work, will you? I have a “reputation” here at work for being a “difficult person.” Know why? I hang up the phone when any of the socios here go really batshit, and I’ve been disciplined for it.
Life is too short. Just hang up.
But well, I used to be a nice person. I tell people I arrived in this city on a turnip truck — but that was a long time ago.
Another tip has helped me over the years. It’s not enough to go NC on someone in the real world. It has to happen inside yourself, too. Evict the bastards. I find there’s nothing to “heal” from if I no longer recognize it as real. I’M real. The game is all make-believe.
Dear Sister,
]
No one every accused me of being ELOQUENT before! Watch out you might ruin my reputation of being a mouthy old bat!@....... LOL
Oh, yes I have come a A LONG WAY BABY, from being so stressed out I couldn’t function at all after the crash of the plane my husband was in, burning him to death, and severely burning my son and 2 friends…then my stepfather was ill with terminal cancer, my egg donor had surgery that went bad, my P-son sent a former cell mate of his to murder me, instead when son D and I got on to the fact this man was a 3x convicted pedophile and career criminal and realized what his purpose was (to kill me to start with and then probably one at a time the rest of the family except son P) and when my son D and I couldn’t get anyone else in the family to believe us we ran for our lives! Without me to stalk, the Trojan Horse psychopath turned on my son C, started an affair with C’s wife, the two of them got my egg donor to cancel my Power of attorney (I’m her only child) and make C and his wife POA, and so the P-DIL and the TH-P stole serious money from my egg donor, then decided to kill my son C (DIL:’s husband) and make it look like “self defense” after he had discovered their affair! They got arrrested when son C got to 911 before they could pull it off and sent to jail/prison and now on parole/probation and out of our lives. However, P son is up for parole in January next year so Have been working on a package of information to submit to parole board to hopefully persuade them to keep him in.
Plus, my immune system took a nose dive and I’ve had 4 SERIOUS life threatening infections, several hospitalizations and surgeries connected to the infections—and I could go on, but you get the idea. My “stress score” on the Holmes and Rae scale (300 is Max-out) over a 3 year period has been in the neighborhood of like 3-5000 over the last 6 years and continual. So INSANITY is the word! NON FUNCTIONAL is the word. Plus, son D was in the plane crash and burned and he also has PTSD…add in forced retirement due to snort term memory loss, and the financial hit that made….and only the last two years have I had even a couple of weeks that were not CHAOTIC to an insane level. (much of it self induced by my inabiloity to set reasonable and appropriate boundaries with those closest to me who were dysfunctional at the least…I am NC with my egg donor and I realize she never earned the title “mother” so I took it back.
Believe it or not, I have been through the meat grinder, but you know something, I am the STRONGER for it! Not that my “pain” was any “greater” than anyonoe else’s here. Read Dr. Vicktor Frankl’s book “Man’s Search for Meaning” which was written abouthis emotional experiences during and after his incarceration in Nazi prison camps and his observations of others there who like him, lost everything…some like him healed and grew from it, others died from it, gave up, and some became bitter and angry and hostile…why are the same conditions getting different responses in the different people? I don’t know the answer to that and he doesn’t either, but ONE spectacular thing stood out.
PAIN ACTS LIKE A GAS, IT EXPANDS TO TOTALLY FILL THE CONTAINER IT IS IN, OR COMPRESSES AS NEEDED. So pain is TOTALLY FILLING whether it is little or much so that each of us experiences TOTAL PAIN. I had felt bad about reading his book about the terrible losses he had suffered (everything but his life and sight) and mine were nothing in comparison, but reading the part about pain is like a gas, made me realize that I did not have to feel guilty for perceiving my pain as total regardless of whether or not it was as “big” as his losses or not. If that makes any sense.
So on the pain department we are ALL EQUAL, whether we “lost much or little” in terms of finances, physical injuries etc. We are all devastated completely.
My blogging and article writing has been more to myself than to others, but it pleases me if others can use my writing to help themselves or to comfort themselves in their pain. I no longer feel “superior” to others that I have handled myself better than someone else, because I realized that though Imight not have stayed or repeatedly gone back to a man who beat me as some have done, I GAVE MY VIOLENT SON CHANCE AFTER CHANCE. So how was I superior to these women? NOT!!!
I still have to continually work on myself as “recovery’ with this past victim-hood and enabling I think requires continual reinforcement like AA does for drunks. If we quit growing we start to decay and fall back into the web of the predators around us. Like if you tghrow a ball into the air, it goes up and up and then STOPS for a microsecond, then when it stops IT STARTS TO FALL. So we have to keep going up and up! Never let ourselves stop in our progress to reinforce our new lessons.
Oxdrover;
You will find this interesting:
Anti-inflammatory and immunomodulation
Recent studies show pro-inflammatory cytokine processes take place during clinical depression, mania and bipolar disorder, and it is possible that symptoms of these conditions are attenuated by the pharmacological effect of antidepressants on the immune system.[60][61][62][63][64]
Studies also show that the chronic secretion of stress hormones as a result of disease, including somatic infections or autoimmune syndromes, may reduce the effect of neurotransmitters or other receptors in the brain by cell-mediated pro-inflammatory pathways, thereby leading to the dysregulation of neurohormones.[63] SSRIs, SNRIs and tricyclic antidepressants acting on serotonin, norepinephrine and dopamine receptors have been shown to be immunomodulatory and anti-inflammatory against pro-inflammatory cytokine processes, specifically on the regulation of Interferon-gamma (IFN-gamma) and Interleukin-10 (IL-10), as well as TNF-alpha and Interleukin-6 (IL-6). Antidepressants have also been shown to suppress TH1 upregulation.[65][66][67][68][69]
Antidepressants, specifically TCAs and SNRIs (or SSRI-NRI combinations), have also shown analgesic properties.[70][71]
These studies warrant investigation for antidepressants for use in both psychiatric and non-psychiatric illness and that a psycho-neuroimmunological approach may be required for optimal pharmacotherapy.[72] Future antidepressants may be made to specifically target the immune system by either blocking the actions of pro-inflammatory cytokines or increasing the production of anti-inflammatory cytokines.[73]
But this even more:
Many psychologists believe that antidepressants hurt the ability to love or experience love. Many users of antidepressants have also reported that their ability to love was reduced by antidepressants.
Antidepressant drugs may also suppress the basic human emotions of love and romance. “There’s every reason to think SSRIs blunt your ability to fall and stay in love,” said Helen Fisher, a Rutgers University biological anthropologist who has pioneered the modern science of love. SSRI antidepressants work by boosting circulating levels of serotonin, a mood-regulating neurotransmitter that also inhibits desire. The drugs also decrease dopamine, a neurotransmitter involved in a wide range of cognitive and behavioral processes, among them desire and arousal. The new research suggests that dopamine may also play a part in romance. During sex, a cocktail of hormones is released that appears to play important roles in fostering romantic attachment within the brain. Take away sex, and romantic love can dwindle. But this is just part of the problem, say Fisher and University of Virginia psychiatrist James Thomson. When couples have just fallen in love, the mere sight of the other causes a jump in dopamine-related brain activity. If they manage to stay in love, with the early flush giving way to long-term affection, those brain patterns stay active. Reduced dopamine levels, however, are an inevitable effect of SSRIs. Reduce dopamine, say Fisher and Thomson, and the possibility of love itself is reduced.[121]
Singles using antidepressants may have a harder time meeting people, because their natural sexual response is dampened. Some researchers believe desire was designed to help people select mates who are genetically suited to them. The spark that ignites on meeting someone new is telling you something: This might be your match. When you miss those signals, your odds of finding an appropriate mate decrease.[122]
There are few studies on the effects of antidepressants on aspects of love beyond libido and sexual performance. But in an intriguing experiment, one Canadian psychologist, Maryanne Fisher (no relation to Helen), reported evidence in a small 2004 study of what she termed “courtship blunting” in women taking antidepressants.
Asked to rate the attractiveness of men’s faces, women taking the drugs rated the men more negatively, and breezed through the pictures faster than women not on antidepressants.[123]
“Closely related to sexual side effects is the phenomenon of emotional blunting, or mood anesthesia. Many users of SSRIs complain of apathy, lack of motivation, emotional numbness, feelings of detachment, and indifference to surroundings. They may describe this as a feeling of “not caring about anything anymore.”
Describes my x-spath to a T.
According to one source, Post-SSRI sexual dysfunction (PSSD) is caused by the previous use of SSRI antidepressants. While apparently uncommon, it can last for months, years, or sometimes indefinitely after the discontinuation of SSRIs.
I wonder if long-term side effects may persist regarding emotional blunting
Perhaps another red flag for dating should be the use of SSRIs, even in the past…
Behind blue eyes,
You have stated some interesting facts, I love the fact that you love information so much. I don’t understand all of the postings about SSRI’s but I do get that these mood stabilizers could cause emotional numbness.
My bi-polar sister did alot of fun things when she was in her manic states, living life in vivid color. Now that she is on medication, her moods have stabilized and her behavior is way more even keel. I miss her and some of the emotions she had before, but I don’t miss the suicide attempts, paranoia, prostitution, random trips overseas, bulimia, and all that comes with this disorder. So these drugs do serve their purpose in stabilizing emotions and I recognize her blunted emotions now, and I’m thankful.
I eat up all the information on why these spaths do what they do, many of them have the same MO. All the answers we find do help us to find a place of healing, but we may never know why they did what they did. We simply can’t follow their distorted thinking because we have healthy brains. Don’t get me wrong, there is always room for improvement but they do not get that fact. The spaths think they are the epitome of perfection. Ha Ha Ha. More like the epitome of imperfection.
Hope you are out riding that bike and taking care of your health! The spaths have affected us profoundly but they just don’t get it, so the jokes on them, not us!!! We win after all!
BBE,
I think you are jumping off on to something here that is not so easily proven “causal” as far as SSRIs are concerned. First, different SSRIs do different things to the dopamine and other hormones. So sometimes one SSRI may help a person and another may not help.
Also, there are other kinds of problems such as people who are victims may have depression prior to the abuse, or they may be bi-polar, have anxiety, etc. etc. So each individual case should be assessed and followed by a PSYCHIATRIST rather than just a general medical professional in my opinion. Even with several years of training in psychoactive medications, their effects and side effects, I only treated complex cases in close collaboration with a psychiatrist, and made sure that my patients were also involved with a psychotherapist as well.
I have taken SSRIs personally for over 6 years in varying doses from extremely high doses to now a much reduced moderate dose of one of the older SSRIs with very good effects. I am neither unable to fall in love or emotionally blunted in any way. I AM gaining some improved control over my emotions and my ability to cope, but it isn’t blunting, it is GROWTH!
I disagree entirely with your “red flag” of not dating anyone who has ever or currently takes SSRIs. That might very well (taking SSRIs) be an indication of depression, but I don’t think even depression should be a “deal killer” especially if the person was adequately treated and functioning well.
There are some mental illnesses that I would probably not date someone if I knew they had them, even if they were controlled pretty well, I also would not start to date someone who had had a previous problem with drugs, alcohol, wife beating, gross and repeated infidelities in a past marriage, many marriages, a stretch in prison, no education, not really smart, a history of multiple bankruptcies, multiple strokes, diabetes that the person refused to treat.
I would date someone who had broken their spine in a diving accident when they were 15 and is in a wheel chair, wouldn’t bother me a bit, I would date someone who didn’t have a lot of money, but managed what he had well. I would date someone who had depression or anxiety but who was treating it and it was under reasonable control.
You can find opinions on the internet about everything in the world and all the “flying saucers” and so on by folks with lots of PhDs after their names, and look at “Doctor” Sam Vaknin, with his phony degree! Writing about “Malignant Narcissists” writing from a first person impression.
Anyway, no I don’t agree with that woman’s opinion, and I don’t know what her credentials are either. But one thing I DO know is that even some of the “highest level” of the researchers on psychopathy wouldn’t know a psychopath unless it had on a PRISON UNIFORM when they saw it. Dr. X and I have observed that one FIRST HAND. I actually have more confidence in some of the bloggers here on LF to “spot one” in the WILD than some of the best known researchers.
Oxdrover;
Please take no offence, a lot was jsut speculation on my part. Remember too, I am on an antidepressant.
When I said making such use a “red flag” I mean as part of evaluating the whole person. Keep in mind too I am very suspecious of SSRI, particularly from the male perspective. I also realize they are quite effective in many without serious side effects.
PS I am in an AA and I would not date myself right now, as I need 3 more months for one year of sobriety…