By Ox Drover
After reading Steve Becker’s article yesterday, I commented that most of the articles here on Lovefraud that could be entitled “1001 Things I Did Wrong in Dealing with a Psychopath” were the ones that applied most to my own dealings with them.
That was meant as a joke, but after I left that comment for Steve, I got to thinking about how right-on it was, joke or not, because I have done so much wrong in dealing with these people. I got my self deeper and deeper into trouble, doing the wrong things in interacting with them. Not that I was intentionally doing something mean or “wrong” per se, but I didn’t make choices that led to positive outcomes in dealing with the psychopaths in my life.
One of the reasons I did 1001 things wrong was that I didn’t know what I was dealing with. I thought I was dealing with people who had good intentions toward me, just as I had good intentions toward them. Boy, was that a wrong thing to assume. But because I assumed this error in fact about their intentions, I tried to “be reasonable” with them. That sure didn’t work. They broke their word to me time and time again. It took me a long time “to get it through my thick skull,” as MaryJo Buttafuoco said in her book, and then, when I did get it through my thick head that “Person A” couldn’t be trusted, I didn’t “generalize” that knowledge to other people who also broke their words to me over and over and over again.
Learning to generalize
Even animals can learn to generalize. A friend and I trained steer, getting them used to “something that rattled.” It didn’t matter what rattled; we would use plastic milk jugs with rocks in them, and tie those jugs to their tails so that every time they took a step, this “rattling monster” attached to them would make noise and follow them. For a little while they were scared and ran from it, but eventually they got the idea that the “rattling monster” wasn’t going to be outrun by them (it always kept up), and it wasn’t actually going to hurt them. Eventually they decided anything that rattled and made noise was harmless.
With one set of young steers my friend trained though, if you got them used to a white jug with rocks in it, and they weren’t afraid of it any more, if you used a yellow jug, they would go back to SQUARE ONE PANIC AGAIN, with each tiny change in the “monster.” They didn’t “generalize” very well and were always hyper-alert and on guard. He eventually got them so they were “dynamite proof,” so he could take them out in public without being afraid they would panic at the first sound they weren’t used to, or the first loud retort from a fire cracker, but he and I both thought for a long time they might not ever generalize enough to be safe from panicking and running away out in public.
Abusive behavior
I think in a way I also didn’t “generalize” the abusive behaviors of the various psychopaths I encountered. When a boss would be dishonest and verbally abusive to me, I was upset and “panicked” at the unexpected behavior, trying to figure out how to not get hurt, but when a relative would do this same kind of behavior I, again, panicked and didn’t realize that the “rattle” was just the same kind of “monster” that I had encountered with the other psychopath. Of course I didn’t realize then that the psychopathic “monsters” had a name or that their lack of empathy and their damage was definitely destructive, unlike a milk jug with a few rocks in it.
I not only tried to be “reasonable” with the psychopaths, but I also tried to placate them, to make them see, by being extra nice to them and not “bowing up and fighting back,” that I wasn’t trying to hurt them. I wanted to be “friends” and get along.
Of course, when a prey animal tries to get along with a predator animal we know what happens, don’t we? The prey animal gets the worst end of the deal. Yep, I did get the worst end of the deal trying to “make nice” with the psychopaths, but again, I didn’t learn that a psychopath is a psychopath is a psychopath is a predator! Rather than generalize this hurtful behavior to a class of people, I saw each one as an individual person with “reasons” and “excuses” and the “potential to change” and “see the light” when there was no chance that they were going to have any empathy, much less sympathy, for the pain they caused me or anyone else. They didn’t give a hoot how badly they hurt me as long as they got what they wanted.
Wanted to get along
I also didn’t really see what it was that they actually wanted. I didn’t want to cause anyone any pain, I wanted to love people and get along with them and share good things and help folks out. This is what I thought that everyone wanted. What they actually did want, however, was to control me, humiliate me, and to get me to provide them with their own twisted idea of a relationship—all take on their part and all give on mine.
Just like the hyper-alert steers, I didn’t feel comfortable, and was always jumpy, expecting something to hit me, but I wasn’t sure where it would come from, so each time a psychopath lied to me, stole from me, took advantage of me, I was totally surprised again and again.
Eventually that young pair of steers got to where they were not surprised by anything in the way of a loud noise and they calmed down and became a reliable pair of working steers (oxen). But it was only because they learned to move from the individual to the general concepts of what would or would not hurt them. They learned that a little yappy dog running at their feet was not a danger, but that a large aggressive dog was something that they should kick at or hook at with their horns. They learned that the sound of a fire cracker or a car back firing, or a cannon shooting at a historical reenactment, wasn’t going to hurt them and they didn’t need to pay it any attention. They learned to distinguish between harmless noises like people yelling or laughing and their drover saying “get up” and meaning it!
I’m not sure why these particular steers were so difficult to train. Perhaps it was because the breed was the wilder Spanish cattle from Mexico whose ancestors that had not jumped every time there was a noise in the brush had been taken out of the gene pool by the wolves, coyotes and mountain lions, so only the “jumpy” ones were left.
Changed my response
I’m also not sure why I didn’t generalize from the abusive behavior I endured over and over, or change the failed attempts to get it to stop by doing repeatedly something that had not worked. Someone once said, “insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.” I sure did enough of that for two lifetimes. Now I have changed the way I respond to abusive behavior. I am learning to distinguish the difference between “harmless rattles” and “real threats” from predators.
I have made some general “rules” to guide me in my differentiation of what is “harmless” and what is “threatening.” First off, it depends on how close to me the threat is. A rattle snake at 10 yards from me is no threat at all. I know he could hurt me if he was closer, but I will not let him get close enough to strike me, so I don’t have to fear him. If that same rattle snake is 3 feet from me, I take a different view of the potential for harm from the same snake, and react in a different way than I do to the one who is 30 feet away.
If a person who is not “close to me” lies to me, it probably isn’t going to be much of a danger to me, unless it is a big business deal. I don’t fear that lie from someone I don’t really have any connection with, I just notice (like with the rattle snake at a distance) that the person is dishonest, I don’t want him to get closer to me.
If a person who is “close to me” lies, that has a much bigger potential for harm to me, both emotionally and otherwise. Therefore I will move away from that dishonest person, put some distance between me and them so that if they do strike, they won’t be close enough to hit me or do any significant damage.
Threat or benign
Once I have determined that a person, animal, or object is a potential threat rather than a benign creature, I will keep a wary eye on it. I won’t make excuses for the potential damage, and once it has tried to hurt me, it won’t have another chance. I no longer trust anything or anyone without assessing the potential damage that could be done.
Cynical? No, I don’t think so, just cautious. I don’t venture into the world like there are no dangers out there, no evil people. I do know now that there are some evil creatures in the world, some potential threats to my life, sanity and health. But I no longer walk in terror, because I have realized what the evil creatures are. I am no longer terrified of the “rattling milk jugs,” but I give a wide berth to the “poison snakes.”
I’ve finally personally learned from the “1001e things I did wrong in dealing with psychopaths.”
I caught that Oxdrover- the director got exhausted just making the documentary, couldn’t even finish it because of Sam’s Vaknshit’s ( LOL, let’s see him try to google himself for that one ) raging/constant projecting! All i can say is i feel so sorry for his wife ( who I believe is still with him to this day, I pray that she wises up in this lifetime ). You could tell in the scene where she’s watching the video of all the trash he talks about her that she’s like frozen, she’s in pain, she’s just not acknowledging it. Tragic.
Dancing Nancies,
perhaps the word reverse-narcissist doesnt resonate with you because of it’s source. but the description does fit me.
You said “no normal person would want to be with a narcissist”. I was raised by narcissists and being treated like shit feels normal to me. In fact when my exP was controlling and jealous and inconsiderate, I thought it was LOVE! Because that was how I was raised. Now I know better – since I left him 1.5 years ago – but I still FEEL like being N-supply is the greatest thing in the world. I really like doing things for others and I’ve always had different labels for why that was. I thought, I’m just nice, or I’m a “fixer” who likes to fix peoples’ problems. That isn’t it. I’m beginning to realize that I was trained that I only get approval/love when I’m sacrificing myself for my sister, brother, or parents. My spath just took advantage of that training and made good use of it.
As Oxy says, I’m functioning in my dysfunction. Last year my new BF offered me a job. So now I can bend over backwards making him happy and GET PAID TOO!
It kind of works for me, but I’m still neglecting all the things I should do for myself. I know I have to grow up and start learning to love being nice to me. It’s a very slow and painful process.
You might not like “reverse narcissist” but whatever you want to call it, just don’t call it normal! LOL.
Dear Skylar,
You are starting to sound so—-get this—SANE!!!!! You are making sense out of your non-sense, you are starting to learn to FUNCTION I think.
You are STARTING TO GET IT, Girlfriend!!!
DAMN! Sky!!! I can’t believe it, you are getting it!!! I am so happy for you!!! TOWANDA!!!! You said a mouthful in the post above!
But you know, we are not little kids any more, we can be grown ups now and MAKE OUR OWN DECISIONS AND DO NICE THINGS FOR OURSELVES! WOW!!! WHAT A FREAKING NOVEL CONCEPT! LOL
SANITY!!!! I wish I’d thought of this years ago! LOL (((Hugs)))))
Thanks Oxy
((Hugs))
I’m going to need to go through more pain before i come out the other side. I know this and I’m procrastinating on EVERYTHING. Can’t get anything done, these days..I’m floundering alot. I wish it would just happen. A few nights ago I had a dream that I told my parents that they could not abuse me anymore.
Your courage and support have been really good for me. When I read about what you have gone through and how you are able to go NC with your mom who lives practically next door, it is an inspiration.
Dear Skylar,
She does LIVE NEXT DOOR, she is my closest neighbor to the north (it is almost a half mile though) but when I step outside my hedge of forest and trees into the clearing, and look north, her house is what I see. For a while I couldn’t even go to that end of the farm without feeling like there was a black cloud over that part of the land. Now I am not so spooked about it, but I don’t go up there unless absolutely necessary, but more just because I don’t want her even seeing me much less knowing what I am doing.
Right now I am keeping my head low as since the early part of November (when we went to vote) no one in the community has seen me and post cards that I have written and mailed from AZ are going to one of my P-son’s “friends” who thinks I don’t know he is a spy for P-son (and egg donor) so I write him letters giving him DIS-information. A friend in AZ sent me some postal cards, I wrote him notes on them, and mailed them back to her and she is stamping and mailing them from AZ to him like I am THERE! LOL
I have done this from other parts of the US before but this is the first time I have taken a “trip” outside the US. LOL ROTFLMAO
I tell this guy that I travel a lot and visit my friends all over the US (and son P and egg donor know I have friends in California, New England, Florida, Texas, and so on) so as long as they think I am “traveling” all the time it is pretty difficult to find me in order to hurt me! LOL Back here in the “hole in the woods” no one can tell if I am here or not as my house is not visible from the public road and I don’t shop or go anywhere I am likely to be seen by egg donor or her friends or anyone who would tell her where I am or am NOT, as the case may be.
It actually is sort of a game, but also gives them some confusing information and that doesn’t hurt a thing in this world. Not knowing what to believe and keeping things confused is what they do to us, so I am just using EB’s “back-spathing” tactics.
There for a while though I was so RAW (and you may be for a while too, that is growing pains) I couldn’t have had any contact at all, even BACK-spathy contact without it being too much.
For what it is worth (this is me trying to read your mind so I may be totally wrong, so don’t take it wrong if I am) but it seems to me like all your “researching” was an effort on your part to understand THEM so you could figure out what the FARK WAS WRONG—either with you or them.
Read today’s article that Donna put up by Dr. Rubenstein, it is GREAT sky, and I think might help you with some of the stuff you are going through.
I think you and I both learned to FUNCTION IN OUR DYSFUNCTION and that we are having now to learn to get rid of the dys- and just FUNCTION in a healthy way by putting one foot in front of the other and doing what we INTELLECTUALLY KNOW IS RIGHT even if we don’t yet FEEL that it is.
It is RIGHT to stay away from them. NC.
It is RIGHT to take care of ourselves FIRST.
It is RIGHT to set boundaries—to not allow people to hurt us. (even if we have to learn what those boundaries need to be from basic “Boundaries 101”)
Keep on Sky, it is going slow, but you are making progress even if YOU don’t see it. I DO SEE IT! (((hugs)))
Skylar, i’ve not ever heard of the term “Reverse Narcissist” but I am referring to Sam Vakshits ( excuse my language ) “making up of terminology” in order to suit his interests and fulfill his disordered perception of the world.
( So we many in actuality be using terms differently, because I am specifically referring to his delineation of his made up term… )
So I disagree with that* terminology. It revolves around normalizing dysfunction. Or a term which adapts normalcy to dysfunction. Kathy Krajco (narc-attack.blogspot.com ) was raised by an N father and had an N sister, and if she were still alive ( RIP ) I’m sure she would RETCH at the thought of the term Inverted Narcissist..
I would describe it as not being an “Inverted Narcissist” but having been conditioned from childhood to seek approval by trying to aid/help/love others despite being abused .. but that does not “MAKE” you anything, you ARE normal, sure you have some baggage to get rid of from having abnormal parents, and some bent screws that need to be fixed from all the faulty conditioning causing you to see X as Y and A as B and so on and so forth. Liking to help others and being a fixer is in no way a weakness or “abnormal trait”. Liking to help others despite being abused all the while, is not “abnormal”.. it is a strength. It means you don’t expect anything back, it means your “love” quotient is healthy. Now, what is unhealthy is being abused and reading the abuse as love.. but that isn’t something thats innate, its something that has been CONDITIONED and needs to be UNCONDITIONED.
If you get to the bottom of it, NO HUMAN BEING likes being mistreated. However, like in the case of stockholm syndrome, if you give a rat some sugar water in intermittent doses in response to pressing a lever ( while the other lever presses deliver painful shocks ) that rat is going to continue pressing that lever despite all of the shocks… because it gave a bit of sugar water before and why shouldn’t it supply more sugar water again? The rat thinks, I’ll have to press the lever more times to get the sugar water, that’s it. And so the rat might press the lever so many times, expecting that reward, even whilst not getting it, because of the memory of having gotten it here and there, two or three times before.. to its death.
Invicta says on her website on psychopaths, “There is no such animal as the “inverted narcissist”. ( In debunking Sam Vakshit here : http://www.angelfire.com/zine2/narcissism/malignant_narcissism.html) The only ones who totally buy into the cult leader’s reality, and usually become his handmaidens and henchmen, are not inverted narcissists. They are just like the leader, only he is more adept at getting and keeping power than they are- kinda like ‘Dr Evil’ and ‘Mini-Me’. They are just ‘Mini-Me’s’ and their use of each other is reciprocal.” ( I guess she and you are talking about two different things in this case, just thought i would mention )
And in her description she is ripping Sam Vaknshit’s pseudo-intellectual terminology apart ( by henchmen she is referring to his supporters on his website, that assist him in abusing victims who look to him for support because he sports a PhD – which is fake btw. ) —
Going out of your way to make others happy isn’t abnormal… at the expense of oneself– well perhaps that’s a side effect of being too giving ( Oxy’s Funnel analogy, where you might be an upside down funnel… accepting little but GIVING a lot )
lol i’ve kind of analyzed things to bits but I have to say one thing : The ONLY thing abnormal in an interaction b/t S/N/P’s and a normal human being is the S/N/P. We all have our quirks, no one’s perfect, but that does not come close to being abnormal.
For myself, from ages 12/13-17 i was abused by a female N throughout highschool. Day in, day out. The lovebombing initially, stealing, lying, gossiping, withholding, acting like she did nothing wrong– were all present ( and those were just the tip of the iceberg ). I would NEVER call myself an inverted narcissist because I became HABITUATED to her abuse cycle.
That goes for kids raised by N’s as well… i suppose the dynamics are shifted significantly because when you’re a child you can’t escape your parents, you’re dependent on them and so.. yeah. But it just means MORE dysfunction to DECONDITION. In no way are those kids flawed because they were born into a situation they could not help. They may have more deep-seated problems to work through, but they ARE normal because they can LOVE.
I hope that wasn’t too confusing. just my two cents.
Dear Dancingnancies,
Yes, you are right…and there are different ways of stating the same thing. I think some of us have “problems” with various terms because of how they are connected to things like Sam Vankinshit…etc.
I don’t like the term “co-dependent,” but prefer the word “enabler,” but the “definition” is pretty much the same. Won’t argue with anyone about it though, the concept is pretty much the same thing.
That is why it is good to have so many different people write about the aspects of the process of healing from these evil creatures, if my chosen words don’t get through, maybe yours will.
Thanks for some thoughtful and good posts, nancies, I am glad you are here! ((hugs)))
Thank you for being supportive nancy.
I also liked kathy’s writing. Her passing was a great loss for the community of spath encounter survivors
Oxy
You did get it right.
I came to realize I was missing an important component for self protection. I understand that I don’t feel the need to protect myself so I have to learn it in an intellectual manner rather than an instinctive way.
That’s why I chosen the name skylar. It means. Protection through knowledge.
But I’m not the only one that needed this knowledge, it’s just that o needed it more than some.
skylar, I’m learning through your journey.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge!