By Ox Drover
After reading Steve Becker’s article yesterday, I commented that most of the articles here on Lovefraud that could be entitled “1001 Things I Did Wrong in Dealing with a Psychopath” were the ones that applied most to my own dealings with them.
That was meant as a joke, but after I left that comment for Steve, I got to thinking about how right-on it was, joke or not, because I have done so much wrong in dealing with these people. I got my self deeper and deeper into trouble, doing the wrong things in interacting with them. Not that I was intentionally doing something mean or “wrong” per se, but I didn’t make choices that led to positive outcomes in dealing with the psychopaths in my life.
One of the reasons I did 1001 things wrong was that I didn’t know what I was dealing with. I thought I was dealing with people who had good intentions toward me, just as I had good intentions toward them. Boy, was that a wrong thing to assume. But because I assumed this error in fact about their intentions, I tried to “be reasonable” with them. That sure didn’t work. They broke their word to me time and time again. It took me a long time “to get it through my thick skull,” as MaryJo Buttafuoco said in her book, and then, when I did get it through my thick head that “Person A” couldn’t be trusted, I didn’t “generalize” that knowledge to other people who also broke their words to me over and over and over again.
Learning to generalize
Even animals can learn to generalize. A friend and I trained steer, getting them used to “something that rattled.” It didn’t matter what rattled; we would use plastic milk jugs with rocks in them, and tie those jugs to their tails so that every time they took a step, this “rattling monster” attached to them would make noise and follow them. For a little while they were scared and ran from it, but eventually they got the idea that the “rattling monster” wasn’t going to be outrun by them (it always kept up), and it wasn’t actually going to hurt them. Eventually they decided anything that rattled and made noise was harmless.
With one set of young steers my friend trained though, if you got them used to a white jug with rocks in it, and they weren’t afraid of it any more, if you used a yellow jug, they would go back to SQUARE ONE PANIC AGAIN, with each tiny change in the “monster.” They didn’t “generalize” very well and were always hyper-alert and on guard. He eventually got them so they were “dynamite proof,” so he could take them out in public without being afraid they would panic at the first sound they weren’t used to, or the first loud retort from a fire cracker, but he and I both thought for a long time they might not ever generalize enough to be safe from panicking and running away out in public.
Abusive behavior
I think in a way I also didn’t “generalize” the abusive behaviors of the various psychopaths I encountered. When a boss would be dishonest and verbally abusive to me, I was upset and “panicked” at the unexpected behavior, trying to figure out how to not get hurt, but when a relative would do this same kind of behavior I, again, panicked and didn’t realize that the “rattle” was just the same kind of “monster” that I had encountered with the other psychopath. Of course I didn’t realize then that the psychopathic “monsters” had a name or that their lack of empathy and their damage was definitely destructive, unlike a milk jug with a few rocks in it.
I not only tried to be “reasonable” with the psychopaths, but I also tried to placate them, to make them see, by being extra nice to them and not “bowing up and fighting back,” that I wasn’t trying to hurt them. I wanted to be “friends” and get along.
Of course, when a prey animal tries to get along with a predator animal we know what happens, don’t we? The prey animal gets the worst end of the deal. Yep, I did get the worst end of the deal trying to “make nice” with the psychopaths, but again, I didn’t learn that a psychopath is a psychopath is a psychopath is a predator! Rather than generalize this hurtful behavior to a class of people, I saw each one as an individual person with “reasons” and “excuses” and the “potential to change” and “see the light” when there was no chance that they were going to have any empathy, much less sympathy, for the pain they caused me or anyone else. They didn’t give a hoot how badly they hurt me as long as they got what they wanted.
Wanted to get along
I also didn’t really see what it was that they actually wanted. I didn’t want to cause anyone any pain, I wanted to love people and get along with them and share good things and help folks out. This is what I thought that everyone wanted. What they actually did want, however, was to control me, humiliate me, and to get me to provide them with their own twisted idea of a relationship—all take on their part and all give on mine.
Just like the hyper-alert steers, I didn’t feel comfortable, and was always jumpy, expecting something to hit me, but I wasn’t sure where it would come from, so each time a psychopath lied to me, stole from me, took advantage of me, I was totally surprised again and again.
Eventually that young pair of steers got to where they were not surprised by anything in the way of a loud noise and they calmed down and became a reliable pair of working steers (oxen). But it was only because they learned to move from the individual to the general concepts of what would or would not hurt them. They learned that a little yappy dog running at their feet was not a danger, but that a large aggressive dog was something that they should kick at or hook at with their horns. They learned that the sound of a fire cracker or a car back firing, or a cannon shooting at a historical reenactment, wasn’t going to hurt them and they didn’t need to pay it any attention. They learned to distinguish between harmless noises like people yelling or laughing and their drover saying “get up” and meaning it!
I’m not sure why these particular steers were so difficult to train. Perhaps it was because the breed was the wilder Spanish cattle from Mexico whose ancestors that had not jumped every time there was a noise in the brush had been taken out of the gene pool by the wolves, coyotes and mountain lions, so only the “jumpy” ones were left.
Changed my response
I’m also not sure why I didn’t generalize from the abusive behavior I endured over and over, or change the failed attempts to get it to stop by doing repeatedly something that had not worked. Someone once said, “insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.” I sure did enough of that for two lifetimes. Now I have changed the way I respond to abusive behavior. I am learning to distinguish the difference between “harmless rattles” and “real threats” from predators.
I have made some general “rules” to guide me in my differentiation of what is “harmless” and what is “threatening.” First off, it depends on how close to me the threat is. A rattle snake at 10 yards from me is no threat at all. I know he could hurt me if he was closer, but I will not let him get close enough to strike me, so I don’t have to fear him. If that same rattle snake is 3 feet from me, I take a different view of the potential for harm from the same snake, and react in a different way than I do to the one who is 30 feet away.
If a person who is not “close to me” lies to me, it probably isn’t going to be much of a danger to me, unless it is a big business deal. I don’t fear that lie from someone I don’t really have any connection with, I just notice (like with the rattle snake at a distance) that the person is dishonest, I don’t want him to get closer to me.
If a person who is “close to me” lies, that has a much bigger potential for harm to me, both emotionally and otherwise. Therefore I will move away from that dishonest person, put some distance between me and them so that if they do strike, they won’t be close enough to hit me or do any significant damage.
Threat or benign
Once I have determined that a person, animal, or object is a potential threat rather than a benign creature, I will keep a wary eye on it. I won’t make excuses for the potential damage, and once it has tried to hurt me, it won’t have another chance. I no longer trust anything or anyone without assessing the potential damage that could be done.
Cynical? No, I don’t think so, just cautious. I don’t venture into the world like there are no dangers out there, no evil people. I do know now that there are some evil creatures in the world, some potential threats to my life, sanity and health. But I no longer walk in terror, because I have realized what the evil creatures are. I am no longer terrified of the “rattling milk jugs,” but I give a wide berth to the “poison snakes.”
I’ve finally personally learned from the “1001e things I did wrong in dealing with psychopaths.”
Imeetapsycho, welcome to LF, and I think that it’s really wonderful that your first post was to reach out and say something to encourage kindheart.
I hope you will post more so we can get to know you! 😀
Oxy, yes, realizing we have to completely get away is the most difficult thing.
Stress, something I have to start working on!
I forget about stress, don’t realize what’s it’s doing to me.
Dear Babydoll,
There is a book called “If you had controlling parents” (can’t remember the author but you can find it searching on line. It is very good. if you can’t find it remind me tomorrow and I will look for my copy to get the author.)
The other book is the Betrayal Bond by Patrick Carnes about trauma bonding (stockholm syndrome)
Understanding that we are conditioned to look at our caregivers as “god” when we are little and to take everything they say as on “tablets of stone direct from god” and TRUE without questioning it. Children are completely dependent on the parents for everything. These “tapes” are not all bad. Some of them are like “always brush your teeth before you go to bed.” That keeps us from having to think about these things and decide about them every day. But other “tapes” of things like “all people not the same religion as you are bad, it is okay to kill them” are not true, so at some point in them you as an adult have to “sort through” the things you are taught and decide which ones of those things you want to continue to believe and which ones you can now as an adult see are not true, not good, and you do not want to continue those things in your life.
Some of the “tapes” are not verbal but are emotional and are not easy to “find” like the one that says “You will feel guilty if you disobey me no matter what your own wishes or feelings are”
“let’s pretend that we have a nice normal family.”
“it is more important what the neighbors think than what actually happened.”
“If you don’t please me, God will send you to hell.”
So it is a learning and sorting process I think.
Another book I like is “Games People Play” by Dr. Eric Berne and it explains some of these “command voices” or tapes, which he calls the “internal parent”
Tracking down and hitting “mute” on some of these tapes is difficult I think, but I’m learning to silence the tapes that make me feel guilty for not pleasing the egg donor, but I am also realizing that there is NO pleasing her, never was and never will be and that it is OKAY NOT TO PLEASE HER. You’d think at over 60 I would realize that what my mommy thinks isn’t the end of the earth! Inside me though, is “little oxy” who still wants to please that woman-mother-god and wants to be comforted by her. But now I can comfort myself, validate myself, love myself, and realize that my God doesn’t take orders from her!
Keep on reading and learning, BabyDoll, life is a journey, growth is a journey and getting away from ANYone who hurts you is a positive move. Your egg donor isn’t the only psychopath you will encounter in your life, just the first….and learning how to deal with the recognition of psychopaths (the red flags) and how to deal with them will help you in your entire life.
Oh, another great book is “Stalking the soul, Emotional abuse and the erosion of idenity,” by marie-france Hirigoyen. It is only available as far as I know used on Amazon or Barnes and Noble. If it isn’t available keep checking back and watch prices on it, because of it being hard to find sometimes they want outrageous prices for it, but I have found it for about 15$ for shipping and the book if you just keep looking—a friend of mine has bought like 7 copies for gifts for her kids (their father was a P). She doesn’t have internet so I have ordered them for her.
Just keep on learning and reading and being good to yourself and your kiddos and your husband. ((hugs)))
Oxy! THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!
Hey I read earlier that you said your mother lives NEXT DOOR . .how ironic. . the first book I read on Sociopathy was “The Sociopath Next Door”. . .and literally days before TB told me she was moving locally! =) The irony was not lost on me.
I bookmarked all those books and can’t wait to start a new and fun relationship with the librarians in my NEW LOCATION! Praise God!
Will talk to the PI too. .that’s BRILLIANT. I also looked up Gavin de Becker and I totally respect him already. The book titled “The Gift of Fear” is going to be the first one for me to read. . . .I saw the title and it resonated soo deeply with me. It’s been something I’ve been pondering a lot, as a Christian we always hear that fears no good, and it just didn’t sit in my heart right. . it was just wrong. But as I’ve been considering it, I feel like fear is a place to visit, BUT not a place to camp out at. Fear is a treasure, it’s a warning that we need to protect ourselves and what a good gift to have! I felt like I had to “shut it off” because it was so “bad” but with recent events I’ve really been learning to embrace it, as a way to be free from it. Maybe that sounds illogical, but it’s guttural. It’s what I feel deep in my bones. . . fear when used properly is not only acceptable, but it’s a gift to be grateful to God for allowing us to have.
I’ve been identifying the Spaths, Ppaths and Narcissists (one in the same eh?) the last couple months. It’s ASTOUNDING how my initial reactions were so strong and repulsed by them and how my dad TOTALLY deprogrammed me from listening to my intuition, and yet somehow (God’s incredible mercy and generosity for me– His orphaned child) I prevailed and outed dad from the “command” box and broke free from many relationships with these toxic people. It’s like I had this honing device that just refused to allow me to set up shop in those relationships. I feel that my relationship to my TB REALLY validated my emotions. I always felt she was evil and never really played into her hand. . .I fought tooth and nail for my sanity and right to be me. And though it hurt like hell and she made me pay for it in a lot of ways, I can feel confident in being true to myself my entire life. I was the one of the three of us kids that didn’t have Stockholm syndrome. From what I have read– there has to be some “sugar” some form of kindness or perceived kindness, and she simply hated me. I was not fooled by that and I didn’t try to make love where there wasn’t. There was still a lot of baggage from this crap, but a single grace was that I was able to identify her as evil.
The catch was all the Christianity I had poured myself into. Gosh people don’t know how to help people with JACKED parents. Seriously people! I reached out with so much vulnerability and what kind of answer did I get. . .”forgive forgive forgive, rebuild. .the bible says. . . .”
DAVID DID NOT RETURN WITH SAUL WHEN SAUL WAS AFTER HIS LIFE AND MADE A LITTLE APOLOGY TO HIM.
David kept going on in his own way. He knew he was dealing with evil incarnate. But all these Christians told me to be like Christ and accept my suffering. There is enough suffering cutting her off and starting over entirely. . .I mean I have to go and hide in some corner of the world, change my address, sell my home, throw away my dreams at the family business, attempt to find a decent income in this economy, hopefully maintain my relationship to my husband through this VERY emotionally taxing time and create an entire new life. . . that’s enough suffering thank you very much. . and now they are going to sit there and tell me to put my children and husband on her altar too. Over my dead body!
I can not even begin to give words to the pent up rage inside my being for being misguided by all these well meaning people.
It’s not my style to be so angry. . . I’m a calm and peace loving person! I want to return to me already. . . .ah.
Babydoll,
Feeling some anger in the situation is normal as well, and being injured causes anger (it is ok and it is goo) I just realized I am fading-0—-going to crashg into my keepo0 board asleep here in a second, so we’lll continue this tomorrow See you tomorrow. ((((hugs))))
Great idea! I would if I wasn’t so wound up and angry. .,haha. . .see you tomorrow!
hushabybabydoll – re:anger
we all need to re-evaluate who we are and what we are allowed to be like after these relationships.; it’s absolutely necessary.
the anger you are expressing in your above post is a positive force – you are protecting your family,waking up from ‘stupid compassion’, and recognizing the fallibility of a religion – in all these things you have been called to change your actions and perceptions. it is a lot of work, both emotionally and in the world. but necessary, SELF defining work that I believe will give you a better life.
i really like your delineation of what you should suffer and what you should not. it’s astute and will serve you well the rest of your life.
I have been reading this post and comments. One in particular I disagree with in what describing how you know if the one your will is for you. The Spath in my life flaunted me around like I was a trophy. It made him look good, to others, to his parents who will speak to him weekly on the phone but have found excuses every year for four years why they can’t come and visit. Even though they travel by car from Fla. To Tenn. twice a year to see his sister. Just because a person wants to “show you off”, especially in an over exagerated way does not mean they are sincere. Mine loved the attention he got but was jealous of the attention I got at the same time. He recently was fired from his job (fourth time for stealing) in fours years since I have been married to him. He came up with an idea that he would go visit his folks for four days in Fla., this decision was made after he tried for a week to find another job here and for the first time since I have known him, no one would hire him. It’s a small town, people talk and it has finally caught up to him. So he’s in Florida (the virtual cycle continues) of his travels, looking for another job in the car business selling service.
He left out of here with the rent not paid but told me it was then got a call from landlord looking for him because the check bounced. I gave the landlord his parents phone number in Fla. I am almost certain he won’t be back. I pray that I never ever see this evil again in my life. He did it to himself. I at some point back, refused to keep feeding him, so he had nothing to feed on with me any more and so he’s onto new hunting ground. Good riddance.
Well i made it through the night rumerating in my mind at times but i have this site and all of you and that hanging by a thread well i talked to a few friends last night but they can’t hold a candle to you gals and guys and glad Ox you mentioned that book, Betrayal Bond, i had lent it to det with s wife , then got it back and then to the girl who is now in detox who got conned out of all her money etc. and i had totally forgotten about how strong that dam bond is, the unhealthiest bond i think of any bond. That book and this site helped me more than anything, might have to order another copy. Just so you guys all know i got into the dark chocolate not as creamy but heavenly , to be honest i like the white, dark all of it hahah. We have a snowstorm here today so im stranded as i drive my little convertible in the winter but i’ll survive i’ve come this far on my own. Im going to read all the posts to get a handle on where evryone is and again thanks to all of you for being there for me so quickly. love kh
Kindheart –
Very pleased to hear you sounding sooo much better honey! x
See – what did I tell you? Chocolate is a MIRACLE cure!!!
I, too have some wonderful girlfriends and my dear old mum has done her darnedest to try to understand what I’ve been through but they just CAN’T, can they? And we wouldn’t even want them to be able to because that would mean they had also been spathed – and how could we wish that on people we love? It is so difficult to make them see that this is NOTHING like any other failed relationship that they might have been through or that they might have seen us go through – it’s in a class all of its own; and it’s not a very classy class…..
With my other relationships (and I have been married thrice, defactoed once and almost engaged a couple of other times – so shoot me…) I can see what went wrong and where (if appropriate) I share blame or contributed to the demise.
But not this. This is a stand-alone weird alien freaky kinda thing.
The only real understanding we are gonna get is from fellow survivors of stand-alone weird alien freaky kinda things….