By Ox Drover
After reading Steve Becker’s article yesterday, I commented that most of the articles here on Lovefraud that could be entitled “1001 Things I Did Wrong in Dealing with a Psychopath” were the ones that applied most to my own dealings with them.
That was meant as a joke, but after I left that comment for Steve, I got to thinking about how right-on it was, joke or not, because I have done so much wrong in dealing with these people. I got my self deeper and deeper into trouble, doing the wrong things in interacting with them. Not that I was intentionally doing something mean or “wrong” per se, but I didn’t make choices that led to positive outcomes in dealing with the psychopaths in my life.
One of the reasons I did 1001 things wrong was that I didn’t know what I was dealing with. I thought I was dealing with people who had good intentions toward me, just as I had good intentions toward them. Boy, was that a wrong thing to assume. But because I assumed this error in fact about their intentions, I tried to “be reasonable” with them. That sure didn’t work. They broke their word to me time and time again. It took me a long time “to get it through my thick skull,” as MaryJo Buttafuoco said in her book, and then, when I did get it through my thick head that “Person A” couldn’t be trusted, I didn’t “generalize” that knowledge to other people who also broke their words to me over and over and over again.
Learning to generalize
Even animals can learn to generalize. A friend and I trained steer, getting them used to “something that rattled.” It didn’t matter what rattled; we would use plastic milk jugs with rocks in them, and tie those jugs to their tails so that every time they took a step, this “rattling monster” attached to them would make noise and follow them. For a little while they were scared and ran from it, but eventually they got the idea that the “rattling monster” wasn’t going to be outrun by them (it always kept up), and it wasn’t actually going to hurt them. Eventually they decided anything that rattled and made noise was harmless.
With one set of young steers my friend trained though, if you got them used to a white jug with rocks in it, and they weren’t afraid of it any more, if you used a yellow jug, they would go back to SQUARE ONE PANIC AGAIN, with each tiny change in the “monster.” They didn’t “generalize” very well and were always hyper-alert and on guard. He eventually got them so they were “dynamite proof,” so he could take them out in public without being afraid they would panic at the first sound they weren’t used to, or the first loud retort from a fire cracker, but he and I both thought for a long time they might not ever generalize enough to be safe from panicking and running away out in public.
Abusive behavior
I think in a way I also didn’t “generalize” the abusive behaviors of the various psychopaths I encountered. When a boss would be dishonest and verbally abusive to me, I was upset and “panicked” at the unexpected behavior, trying to figure out how to not get hurt, but when a relative would do this same kind of behavior I, again, panicked and didn’t realize that the “rattle” was just the same kind of “monster” that I had encountered with the other psychopath. Of course I didn’t realize then that the psychopathic “monsters” had a name or that their lack of empathy and their damage was definitely destructive, unlike a milk jug with a few rocks in it.
I not only tried to be “reasonable” with the psychopaths, but I also tried to placate them, to make them see, by being extra nice to them and not “bowing up and fighting back,” that I wasn’t trying to hurt them. I wanted to be “friends” and get along.
Of course, when a prey animal tries to get along with a predator animal we know what happens, don’t we? The prey animal gets the worst end of the deal. Yep, I did get the worst end of the deal trying to “make nice” with the psychopaths, but again, I didn’t learn that a psychopath is a psychopath is a psychopath is a predator! Rather than generalize this hurtful behavior to a class of people, I saw each one as an individual person with “reasons” and “excuses” and the “potential to change” and “see the light” when there was no chance that they were going to have any empathy, much less sympathy, for the pain they caused me or anyone else. They didn’t give a hoot how badly they hurt me as long as they got what they wanted.
Wanted to get along
I also didn’t really see what it was that they actually wanted. I didn’t want to cause anyone any pain, I wanted to love people and get along with them and share good things and help folks out. This is what I thought that everyone wanted. What they actually did want, however, was to control me, humiliate me, and to get me to provide them with their own twisted idea of a relationship—all take on their part and all give on mine.
Just like the hyper-alert steers, I didn’t feel comfortable, and was always jumpy, expecting something to hit me, but I wasn’t sure where it would come from, so each time a psychopath lied to me, stole from me, took advantage of me, I was totally surprised again and again.
Eventually that young pair of steers got to where they were not surprised by anything in the way of a loud noise and they calmed down and became a reliable pair of working steers (oxen). But it was only because they learned to move from the individual to the general concepts of what would or would not hurt them. They learned that a little yappy dog running at their feet was not a danger, but that a large aggressive dog was something that they should kick at or hook at with their horns. They learned that the sound of a fire cracker or a car back firing, or a cannon shooting at a historical reenactment, wasn’t going to hurt them and they didn’t need to pay it any attention. They learned to distinguish between harmless noises like people yelling or laughing and their drover saying “get up” and meaning it!
I’m not sure why these particular steers were so difficult to train. Perhaps it was because the breed was the wilder Spanish cattle from Mexico whose ancestors that had not jumped every time there was a noise in the brush had been taken out of the gene pool by the wolves, coyotes and mountain lions, so only the “jumpy” ones were left.
Changed my response
I’m also not sure why I didn’t generalize from the abusive behavior I endured over and over, or change the failed attempts to get it to stop by doing repeatedly something that had not worked. Someone once said, “insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.” I sure did enough of that for two lifetimes. Now I have changed the way I respond to abusive behavior. I am learning to distinguish the difference between “harmless rattles” and “real threats” from predators.
I have made some general “rules” to guide me in my differentiation of what is “harmless” and what is “threatening.” First off, it depends on how close to me the threat is. A rattle snake at 10 yards from me is no threat at all. I know he could hurt me if he was closer, but I will not let him get close enough to strike me, so I don’t have to fear him. If that same rattle snake is 3 feet from me, I take a different view of the potential for harm from the same snake, and react in a different way than I do to the one who is 30 feet away.
If a person who is not “close to me” lies to me, it probably isn’t going to be much of a danger to me, unless it is a big business deal. I don’t fear that lie from someone I don’t really have any connection with, I just notice (like with the rattle snake at a distance) that the person is dishonest, I don’t want him to get closer to me.
If a person who is “close to me” lies, that has a much bigger potential for harm to me, both emotionally and otherwise. Therefore I will move away from that dishonest person, put some distance between me and them so that if they do strike, they won’t be close enough to hit me or do any significant damage.
Threat or benign
Once I have determined that a person, animal, or object is a potential threat rather than a benign creature, I will keep a wary eye on it. I won’t make excuses for the potential damage, and once it has tried to hurt me, it won’t have another chance. I no longer trust anything or anyone without assessing the potential damage that could be done.
Cynical? No, I don’t think so, just cautious. I don’t venture into the world like there are no dangers out there, no evil people. I do know now that there are some evil creatures in the world, some potential threats to my life, sanity and health. But I no longer walk in terror, because I have realized what the evil creatures are. I am no longer terrified of the “rattling milk jugs,” but I give a wide berth to the “poison snakes.”
I’ve finally personally learned from the “1001e things I did wrong in dealing with psychopaths.”
Dear LostandConfused:
I haven’t posted to you b/c you already have wiser counsel. But “Let me also ask you all this, When you close your eyes and picture a 50 year old woman with a 20 years old girl…. (and an ex professor). Does SEX ring BIG bells in your heads?”
I will tell you when I read about you and your question about SEX… You confuse me.
You see yourself as a girl? At 20? I remember 20. I thought I knew it all and I was A WOMAN.
Are you for real? I ask b/c to me, You read like a prank.
BUT…IF you are for REAL… the bell that rings for me is PEDOPHILE. Definitely PREDATORY. As a mom, if this happened to my daughter, I’d be freaked.
Look honey. I’m in my 50’s. But I am WAY too old for some 18-19-20 year old. The SEX thought makes me ewwwich. Such a lovely young body should be enjoying the attentions of sweet caring cool hip… (adjective adjective adjective) 20’s something – NOT some old lesbian lecher (30 yr age diff with young inexperienced woman? yes. that is a predatory lecher – whether female or male.).
Just responding to the general query you posted….
Skylar…..Thank you. I am at the point in my life, where I look at the r/s I just ended as a learning experience. As low as it brought me, and it DID trigger many old regressed feelings of abandonment and abuse, I have come through it a MUCH stronger person! Sometimes we have to hit rock bottom to trigger us to rebuild. Thats where I’m at. I hit rock bottom last year, as you all know. It was time for me to face my inner demons that have controlled my life all along. Had I not got involved with my xbf, I never would have been plunged into the depths of despair and forced to look at MYSELF!
I say..out of everything bad, comes something good. Life is all about lessons. We are here to learn.
At this point, having to face my inner child, and painfully so…I know who I am. I studied MYSELF and I learned why I made the choices I did in my life…and now I can live my life with an inner peace that I’ve never had before. I no longer function out of fear. I am strong and wiser than I’ve ever been.
Writing my book, whether it ever gets published or not…is going to be very healing for me. It will help me to continue to grow and overcome my past. I’m really excited about it.
I have set goals for myself and I feel so confident that I will reach them. Its all about taking care of ME now. I learned to avoid people who bring me down and focus on me…hour by hour. Being a single mom of 3, I have a lot on my plate. They are my priority. My health, my children, and my goal to write.
Yes, there is life after being involved with a sociopath. Once you acknowledge that they are disordered, and you explore YOUR role in being involved with them, and you make a commitment to change YOURSELF….its all uphill.
It takes alot of pampering yourself and taking care of yourself…seeking support from whatever source you need, and TAKING ACTION. I don’t just talk about getting myself in shape….I changed my eating habits and started to exercise.
I vent when I feel sad or angry, but then I TAKE ACTION and read and study about how to find inner peace. (I just ordered the book…The Biology of Belief….all about living in the NOW, not allowing old feelings from the subconscious control you!)
I say…..Whatever it takes!!! If I’m tired, I sit in my massage chair and watch tv, read, rest or nap. If I’m hungry, I eat what I crave. I LIVED in my hottub last year…to help my physical (knees) and to DESTRESS. Its all about ME now. I need to keep peaceful and happy to continue to take care of my children. If “I” thrive, they will thrive.
Anyway, we can come through this a much happier person if we make up our mind to.
Katy….I understand your feelings, looking at Lostnconfused’s situation from the outside. It is obvious that this 50 yr old woman is disordered and exploitive.
I feel that Lostncofused, as young as she is, is an intelligent young woman who had enough smarts to research behavior problems and ended up finding this place for support. She is reading and validating her instincts that this woman is disordered.
Yes, the 50 yr old found a young vulnerable woman to use as supply to satisfy her own needs. They were more than “sexual”. She was using Lost as a supply for many things…her ego..he sexual needs, etc… We all know how these disordered people are. They target young, sweet, vulnerable people. She is young to have this happen to her, but she is lucky that she is educated about socios, manipulators, conartists, BPD….at such a young age.
I was involved with my first socio at age 22. Everyone warned me that he was a liar, charmer, etc..and used people and ripped them off money…etc. It was awful. I finally ended it…and yet I didn’t learn about ME and why I was so bonded to him…and why I allowed him to seduce me and hypnotize me to the point where I didn’t know who I was anymore.
So, years later, I dated another guy who “reminded” me of him..even looked like him. I ended up marrying him and had 3 children with him. I didn’t LEARN!!! I didn’t change who “I” was….I didn’t work on ME and get strong and confident. I was STILL vulnerable…even MORE because I was older and worried about never having children…(I was 33..)and I made the same mistake. I let him control me. The rest is history.
So, I give Lost a lot of credit for finding this site…researching…and learning about herself as well as educating herself at a young age about personality disorders.
Yes, she got sucked in…and from reading this site…and educating herself…she will hopefully soul search and find out why she was attracted to this woman…and change HERSELF so that she never lets this happen to her again.
I just think that its more than just ‘sex’ that they want. They want control, power, AND sex.
KatyDid,
I am def. real and i really do appreciate your words.
I need I need you all to be tough to me like you are, KatyDid.
To me, because my head is so messed up from the s-path… its not a prey/predatory relationship because i feel like i was giving 100% consent!
KatyDid, As a mother, i know you understand and see the big, LOUD picture here… (just as my mother does, and she is willing to give up her own life to make mine better and keep away from the spath).
But the truth of the matter is… i still just dont.
How can someone who was nothing but good to me just be in it for sex?
If i see a 50 year old man walking down the street with a 20 year old girl, SEX is the first thing thats in my mind. Why dont i see that same thing for myself?
Thats where i need help. And if there are more tough ones out here like you, KatyDid… please.. help me. Be agressive, tell me the truth as it is.. because at this point… being nice and saying things nicely to me… is just not working.
And, Lostnconfused….
Don’t beat yourself up about it. I did that and it broke me down. I hated myself for allowwing him to use me…but I was getting something out of it too. After not having a man in my life for 5 yrs prior…He made me feel like a sexy woman…and built up my self esteem in that way. I “needed” him in my life for a reason, at the time. As painful as the r/s was…I learned so much…and it was filling some needs I had at the time. I was happy having him in my life…even though I was in love with an “illusion” . Once I realize that he was so disordered and incapable of really “loving” me
…it was painful. But, it taught me so much about myself!
No pain…no gain.
In time, you will look at all you learned and gain from this nightmare.
Lost,
I see your problem: you can’t see the forest for the trees.
Until you do, you will still be vulnerable.
What you’ve experienced should make you feel empathy for boys who have been victims of pedophile priests, and all children who are victims of pedophiles. Even though you are not a child, she used the same techniques on you, it’s called grooming. Do you think P-Priest just grab a boy and rape him? no, they spend time, sometimes years, working on a relationshit that warps the victim’s thinking. In the end the boy thinks they are having a consensual relationshit.
Just as in this example, you had a relationshit with someone in a position of authority at your school. She used that to gain you trust, initially. But your grooming had just begun. She even convinced you to have a lesbian relationshit, even though you aren’t GAY! BTW, neither is she. The spaths aren’t anything, they will have sex with anything as long as it gives them power and supply.
You feel this way because you’ve been groomed to feel this way. Now you know what it feels like to be brainwashed. Hard to believe isn’t it? You don’t feel like a zombie, you feel like you – only confused. Remember, a WTF moment means there’s a spath involved.
Skylar,
I totally see what you are saying and it makes soo much sense now.. But in a few hours… my head will go back to thinking… how can she possibly be so evil? She introduced you to everyone in her world.. all her friends.. how can all that be a lie? You spent so many good times together… how can all that be a lie?
I might just also want to add that I come from a indian background where being gay is just… not acceptable (my spath is mexican).. I am raised in the US so my views are different..i have nothing against anyone gay… but i know that i am straight. I had told the spath that i was with a girl (a one night thing) but she knew that i was straight… i told her from the very beginning that i AM straight… this is exactly what itold her
“I am a girl in a relationship with another woman, but i willnot call myself a lesbian/gay” because truthfully i am not gay.
My spath is very loud and proud to be gay! She has told me that she has had bfs in her younger years (her 20s)… but once she had sex with a woman.. she knew she was gay.
She also told me that she had “made out” with a man in the club (im assuming it was in the more recent times)… but she said it stopped there.. didnt go any further.. she didnt WANT it to go any further.
I dont know why i am telling you all this… but perhaps i am reminding myself about her promiscuity behavior.
I just want to know… someone 50 years old… living alone for 30 years… super outgoing and loves meeting new people… am i just kidding myself thinking i was this special person to her?
Everything i told you about her.. is true.
She said she only had 11 partners… thats probably a lie right?
I have all these questions that i will never get answers to and its driving me insane.
Some of you here are at the age of my spath… and you all speak with so much experience and widsom….so clearly, if you all wanted.. it would be so easy for you all to manipulate a 20 year old right?
I am asking you all the questions that i want answers from her… but ofcourse i cant get them.
Lost, Why are you having sex with women if you’re straight? That is the first question I would be asking myself.
I’m 51, and I think the question about being able to manipulate a 20 year old can only be answered like this: I wouldn’t want to. And I think it’s just as likely that the 20 year old could manipulate me. It depends on power imbalances in the relationship, and personality of the participants.
You sound as if you may have led a sheltered life, thus far…if so, that leaves you pretty vulnerable to being manipulated because you haven’t had a lot of exxperience out there in the real world.
But another 20 year old could be a died in the wool sociopath who could manipulate me, based on my desires (not that I want a 20 year old…I don’t, but you see what I’m getting at, I hope)
So, it’s all relative.
Lost,
I really feel for you, right now you are in the fog, I was there for a long, long time. Just got out of it really.
I was saying the same things to people on lovefraud, how can he be evil? He loves animals, he gives me wonderful gifts, he tells me I’m beautiful and that he loves me daily, is responsible, etc. Oh, the sex was awesome. But…..and it’s a big but, he lied about porn sites (my imagination), lied about women in general, lied about phone sex, lied about touching daughter inappropriately (told me I coached her), tried to find a mental hospital for me, called my mom for an intervention for me, tells his family and friends that I’m crazy, says horrible blaming statements that are untrue, all the while telling me how much he loves me.
If you met the man you would probably be taken in by his sense of humor and think he were kind. Same with you, your professor sounds very charasmatic. It is a mask to get what they want. They cultivate their ‘image’ very carefully because it’s important for them to be viewed a certain way. That 50 year old woman crossed so many boundaries it’s not even funny.
I agree with Skylar on this, it was grooming. My soon to be ex was doing it with my daughter and who knows what would have happened if she didn’t have the courage to come forward. If she were mousy like me.
You will eventually be able to look back and realize what she did was preditory and wrong. Any psychologist could tell you that. Even if she only had one partner before you, it doesn’t matter-at all. You know she is disordered in your heart and that is why you feel so much confusion, it’s difficult to comprehend that there are people in the world who seem so good but are a wolf in sheeps clothing. Trust me, there are.
I pray to God that the h-spath does not get in a relationshit with a woman who has a teenaged daughter, it makes me want to throw up thinking about it.
Process all of what happened and you’ll realize how unhealthy it was. You will get to a better place!
Hi Hopeforjoy,
I am so sorry for your pain. Unlike your spath… i never caught her in any situation like that… besides one (read my older posts above, the one with her ex and an ac). Perhaps if i had stayed… i wouldve seen more true colors of her.
There was a reason why she didnt have LONG TERM relationships. Her friends were not shocked to see me. As mentioned before… she said “I love young women, and they love me”.
Also.. when my family found out about us… i left home.. to live with her… (which only lasted for 2 days). but she said ” I could get used to you living here..”
She took everything away… and displayed only a good side.
Its so disturbing to encourage someone to leave their home and live with the spath. (btw, she not ONCE TOLD ME TO LEAVE MY HOUSE… i thought it was my own decisions.. but she totally implied it.)
All of you have seen the evil sides of you spaths…
do you think i was saved from further heartace, because my family found out and literally “rescused” me.. as my mom puts it?
Do you think in time i would have unveiled more secrets about my spath?
Do you think she feels regret?
Does she think about me?
Does she think she was wrong? (she was never wrong in her world..)
**talking to you all, and hearing your opinions are really helping me out so much, so thank u all!**