By Ox Drover
After reading Steve Becker’s article yesterday, I commented that most of the articles here on Lovefraud that could be entitled “1001 Things I Did Wrong in Dealing with a Psychopath” were the ones that applied most to my own dealings with them.
That was meant as a joke, but after I left that comment for Steve, I got to thinking about how right-on it was, joke or not, because I have done so much wrong in dealing with these people. I got my self deeper and deeper into trouble, doing the wrong things in interacting with them. Not that I was intentionally doing something mean or “wrong” per se, but I didn’t make choices that led to positive outcomes in dealing with the psychopaths in my life.
One of the reasons I did 1001 things wrong was that I didn’t know what I was dealing with. I thought I was dealing with people who had good intentions toward me, just as I had good intentions toward them. Boy, was that a wrong thing to assume. But because I assumed this error in fact about their intentions, I tried to “be reasonable” with them. That sure didn’t work. They broke their word to me time and time again. It took me a long time “to get it through my thick skull,” as MaryJo Buttafuoco said in her book, and then, when I did get it through my thick head that “Person A” couldn’t be trusted, I didn’t “generalize” that knowledge to other people who also broke their words to me over and over and over again.
Learning to generalize
Even animals can learn to generalize. A friend and I trained steer, getting them used to “something that rattled.” It didn’t matter what rattled; we would use plastic milk jugs with rocks in them, and tie those jugs to their tails so that every time they took a step, this “rattling monster” attached to them would make noise and follow them. For a little while they were scared and ran from it, but eventually they got the idea that the “rattling monster” wasn’t going to be outrun by them (it always kept up), and it wasn’t actually going to hurt them. Eventually they decided anything that rattled and made noise was harmless.
With one set of young steers my friend trained though, if you got them used to a white jug with rocks in it, and they weren’t afraid of it any more, if you used a yellow jug, they would go back to SQUARE ONE PANIC AGAIN, with each tiny change in the “monster.” They didn’t “generalize” very well and were always hyper-alert and on guard. He eventually got them so they were “dynamite proof,” so he could take them out in public without being afraid they would panic at the first sound they weren’t used to, or the first loud retort from a fire cracker, but he and I both thought for a long time they might not ever generalize enough to be safe from panicking and running away out in public.
Abusive behavior
I think in a way I also didn’t “generalize” the abusive behaviors of the various psychopaths I encountered. When a boss would be dishonest and verbally abusive to me, I was upset and “panicked” at the unexpected behavior, trying to figure out how to not get hurt, but when a relative would do this same kind of behavior I, again, panicked and didn’t realize that the “rattle” was just the same kind of “monster” that I had encountered with the other psychopath. Of course I didn’t realize then that the psychopathic “monsters” had a name or that their lack of empathy and their damage was definitely destructive, unlike a milk jug with a few rocks in it.
I not only tried to be “reasonable” with the psychopaths, but I also tried to placate them, to make them see, by being extra nice to them and not “bowing up and fighting back,” that I wasn’t trying to hurt them. I wanted to be “friends” and get along.
Of course, when a prey animal tries to get along with a predator animal we know what happens, don’t we? The prey animal gets the worst end of the deal. Yep, I did get the worst end of the deal trying to “make nice” with the psychopaths, but again, I didn’t learn that a psychopath is a psychopath is a psychopath is a predator! Rather than generalize this hurtful behavior to a class of people, I saw each one as an individual person with “reasons” and “excuses” and the “potential to change” and “see the light” when there was no chance that they were going to have any empathy, much less sympathy, for the pain they caused me or anyone else. They didn’t give a hoot how badly they hurt me as long as they got what they wanted.
Wanted to get along
I also didn’t really see what it was that they actually wanted. I didn’t want to cause anyone any pain, I wanted to love people and get along with them and share good things and help folks out. This is what I thought that everyone wanted. What they actually did want, however, was to control me, humiliate me, and to get me to provide them with their own twisted idea of a relationship—all take on their part and all give on mine.
Just like the hyper-alert steers, I didn’t feel comfortable, and was always jumpy, expecting something to hit me, but I wasn’t sure where it would come from, so each time a psychopath lied to me, stole from me, took advantage of me, I was totally surprised again and again.
Eventually that young pair of steers got to where they were not surprised by anything in the way of a loud noise and they calmed down and became a reliable pair of working steers (oxen). But it was only because they learned to move from the individual to the general concepts of what would or would not hurt them. They learned that a little yappy dog running at their feet was not a danger, but that a large aggressive dog was something that they should kick at or hook at with their horns. They learned that the sound of a fire cracker or a car back firing, or a cannon shooting at a historical reenactment, wasn’t going to hurt them and they didn’t need to pay it any attention. They learned to distinguish between harmless noises like people yelling or laughing and their drover saying “get up” and meaning it!
I’m not sure why these particular steers were so difficult to train. Perhaps it was because the breed was the wilder Spanish cattle from Mexico whose ancestors that had not jumped every time there was a noise in the brush had been taken out of the gene pool by the wolves, coyotes and mountain lions, so only the “jumpy” ones were left.
Changed my response
I’m also not sure why I didn’t generalize from the abusive behavior I endured over and over, or change the failed attempts to get it to stop by doing repeatedly something that had not worked. Someone once said, “insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.” I sure did enough of that for two lifetimes. Now I have changed the way I respond to abusive behavior. I am learning to distinguish the difference between “harmless rattles” and “real threats” from predators.
I have made some general “rules” to guide me in my differentiation of what is “harmless” and what is “threatening.” First off, it depends on how close to me the threat is. A rattle snake at 10 yards from me is no threat at all. I know he could hurt me if he was closer, but I will not let him get close enough to strike me, so I don’t have to fear him. If that same rattle snake is 3 feet from me, I take a different view of the potential for harm from the same snake, and react in a different way than I do to the one who is 30 feet away.
If a person who is not “close to me” lies to me, it probably isn’t going to be much of a danger to me, unless it is a big business deal. I don’t fear that lie from someone I don’t really have any connection with, I just notice (like with the rattle snake at a distance) that the person is dishonest, I don’t want him to get closer to me.
If a person who is “close to me” lies, that has a much bigger potential for harm to me, both emotionally and otherwise. Therefore I will move away from that dishonest person, put some distance between me and them so that if they do strike, they won’t be close enough to hit me or do any significant damage.
Threat or benign
Once I have determined that a person, animal, or object is a potential threat rather than a benign creature, I will keep a wary eye on it. I won’t make excuses for the potential damage, and once it has tried to hurt me, it won’t have another chance. I no longer trust anything or anyone without assessing the potential damage that could be done.
Cynical? No, I don’t think so, just cautious. I don’t venture into the world like there are no dangers out there, no evil people. I do know now that there are some evil creatures in the world, some potential threats to my life, sanity and health. But I no longer walk in terror, because I have realized what the evil creatures are. I am no longer terrified of the “rattling milk jugs,” but I give a wide berth to the “poison snakes.”
I’ve finally personally learned from the “1001e things I did wrong in dealing with psychopaths.”
Dear Lost,
I think it will take you time to process what happened. You will have healthy relationships and that will help put the preditory nature of this relationship into perspective. It’s hard to see right not how distorted it was.
I secretly wonder if my h-spath ever regrets what he has done, the answer is no. He can’t afford to believe anything is wrong with him.
If your ex is or isn’t thinking about you is not the point, from what you have said about her, she will sail through life with no regrets and no guilt. They say things like “We were meant to be together, it’s destiny, we are so wonderful together, we have a connection”. These are things they say so we believe in the fairy tale. That is what is was and it’s so much better to be here, in reality.
Try and focus on you, on healing and your other very real relationships. Your parents love you and care for your well being, that is what you need in your life. Good friends and laughter. If you find yourself thinking about her try and move your mind to other thoughts, it’s like training your mind. I thought about wearing a rubber band and snapping it everytime I started going “He can’t be evil, can he?” I still feel bad when he has crying jags but it’s not going to change anything for me to get sucked into his crap again.
Do anything you can to stop thinking about her, exercise, take a hot bath, go to a movie, and talk it out on lovefraud. We know about addiction.
Hugs!!!!!
LostNConfused,
“I love young women and they love me.”
THAT says it all. Exploitative. Predatory. Pedophile.
But that is NOT relationship love. I don’t know what outside counselling you are doing, but I think you need to explore how pedophiles abuse.
Like ALL the targets of sociopaths, we all struggle with how something that felt so good was a bad person mindfarking us for their own reasons. It hurts that we gave so much, devoted so much to someone who didn’t appreciate us for who we are, but was only in it for what they got from us. How replaceable we are b/c it wasn’t about connection, it was about taking the toy off the shelf, playing with it, and then go looking for a new toy.
Use some common sense. If she was so wonderful, do you really think it takes 50 years to find your one true love? What happens when the young woman is no longer young? BUT… it’s young WOMEN she loves (not a person, an AGE). Again, she reveals that she is a pedophile. That you are legal age doesn’t change that YOUNG women (more than one in her years!) are what gets her hot and bothered.
Please seek books, councelling, HELP for recovery from a PEDOPHILE. No, Sorry there is NOTHING special about her, she just perfected her predatory hunting with OTHER YOUNG WOMEN.
What she did to twist your thinking is TERRIBLE but NOW your job is to take care of yourself. Maybe it’s so recent and possibly you are still in shock over what was done to assault your spirit, your soul, your dignity… all for her soul sucking satisfaction. You ARE being told by Lovefraud members what you need to hear. Perhaps Shock is keeping you from hearing, absorbing, and accepting the sad painful truth, that as special as you are to GOOD people, you were only one in a line of her victims, many others which she used and discard ahead of you.
Answers: No she doesn’t feel regret. She DOES NOT think that deep!
Without regret, for her there is NO “wrong” Yes, sometimes she thinks of you, like ALL pedophiles, she has a “trophy” of you, something to remind her victory over you, (turning from straight into her toy?) She did NOT display only a good side. Truth is: You were unaware of the nature of the evil she displayed. She manipulated you, in true pedophilia predictability. OTHERS can see the evil. You were blinded to it.
(Number of partners? WHo cares? 11 is a lot! I had three and I’m her age. Where this is true or not, what’s the point? Was 11 a virtuous number? The reason this part if confusing is B/c the TRUTH IS that the number of partners is IRRELEVANT!)
YES, your family rescued you. Be glad you had someone to care about your true well being.
I am NOT trying to be mean, I am NOT trying to be aggressive. I am trying to tell you that you got played, by a pedophile. And YOUR job is to learn and take responsibility so that this predator can not use your desires to manipulate you. You must learn what your own needs are and how to fulfill them in an emtionally HEALTHY way. SHE was NOT healthy. She only APPEARED to know b/c practice taught her how to seduce, manipulate, and blame YOU for HER predatory pedophilia. (some pedophiles rationalize, that the Victim WANTED it. Nobody wants to be vicitimized. Pedophiles engage you to see what your vulnerability is so she knew how to SEEM to be the answer to what you missed in life. In your life, this happened during the friendship stage. She was NOT being your friend, she was checking you out as to how you could be of use to her. BUT she withheld the TRUTH of her TRUE motivations of WHY she did it, to control you/to take from you to validate HER at the expense of YOUR LIFE.) SHe’s WAY too old. She took advantage of your innocence, as PEDOPHILES do.
Search out info about pedophiles. Explore how to recover from a pedophile. Learn who YOU are, what your needs are, how to care for yourself in a self responsible way. And be grateful someone cared enough to rescue you. Honor that.
Lost…..She was lying to you about so many things? THIS is NOT being “nice”. Her “niceness” was all manipulations. Look up Manipulators on Youtube. com There’s lots of info on how liars and manipulators operate. You will recognize her.
I felt the same way. My xbf was SO nice to me…buying me gifts…(throwing crumbs to keep me going)….and when he saw me getting wise to him….he laid on the “lets get married” b/s heavily. When he wanted sex….he would text me “Hey Sexy” and then for three days after, until he wanted sex again..he didnt call me sexy or honey! He became SO predictable its almost funny!!!!!
She is a big phony!!! And there are plenty others out there…so be careful. Look up RED FLAGS and when you see one…RUN FOREST RUN!
Lostnconfused,
When it comes to having a romantic relationship, I would think that a 50 year old woman would want to date someone who is closer to her own age (not a much younger person), also someone who is her equal. As long as you stayed involved with her, she would continue to lie to you – who wants to date someone who’s word is no good? Believe me, the lies get old, driving you nuts just listening to them. You are young, being able to spend your quality time and energy on better people. If you had a daughter, would you want her to seriously date this 50 year old woman, knowing what you know about her? Hopefully, you would say, “No, I’d yank her out of that relationship right away”. That’s what your mother did – she saw red flags and paid attention to them -she’s trying to protect you from anyone who might not have the best of intentions for you. Believe me, there are people out there who will take advantage of you, not batting an eye over it. Be safe and be careful.
KatyDid,
The way you are putting things in prespective for me is amazing!
You make all the sense in the world! I am not seeing the truth just yet, but i cant argue with everything you are saying because it is the truth.
Being her age, and saying you cant imagine ever being involved with someone so much younger just makes me think so low of her.
Even her friends were much younger than her.. The oldest probably being… in the early 40s, the youngest… 25.
Her ex was 30 year old (20 years apart) Would you consider that a predatory relationship also?
I cant tell you the ages of any of her other ex’s because… i honestly dont know.
The truth is… as time goes on.. I am learning so much more baout her… and more about me. When my family found out about us…. she kept telling me “I had no bad intentions for you… I only tried to help you out!… I never made you choose between u and your family.. etc etc.”
But she never told me to go home either when i was the one telling her i wanted to leave home for good.
When my mom found out abt us..We had planned to move away to the other side of the country to her ranch (which i visted with her… and i swear to you all… it was the scariest place in the world.. abandoned trailer park next to her ranch… no life 5 miles on each side of the ranch… in the middle of no where) (She would also go and LIVE THERE ALONE FOR WEEKS AT A TIME!!!!) THAT IS SO INSANE TO ME!!!!
(I read in an article that no matter how charming and amazing sociopaths are with people, they can live on their own for long periods of time… i guess that applied to her too). Are any of you familiar with this? Am i crazy for being afraid of a place in the middle of LITERALLY NO WHERE and NO LIFEE FOR MILES… (she would live there alone, for weeks, with her dog, and not scared for one second.)
I always knew something was not right… I tried yoga during the times i was with her beause of the anxiety and stress… but nothing was working… i lost weight… and all that because of her… Nothing else changed in my life, but her, so clearly she was the cause of it… without ever doing/saying anything wrong.
Its just amazing how these people work. And all this is so clear to you. Will it ever be clear to me?
Thank you also, Bluejay.. If i had a daughter who was dating a 50 year old… i would do exactly what my mother did.
Tobehappy… looking up manipulations now!!
LostNConfused,
I am sad to say, yes it will become clear. I say it is knowledge that I could have lived my whole life without looking into the unending abyss of emptiness in those black souls.
You KNOW. The red flags were HUGE. You always knew. You are trotting out these drama bombs for our attention. I do not know why you are behaving this way but I am done.
Assuming you are as blind as you portray yourself…..You ignored. You wanted the dream. But like all dreams, the reality was missing.
So she Wanted to take you somehwere horrible? Again, I feel like you are playing me. As if you don’t know that isolating their victim isn’t typical??!
Even if you are playing me with these obvious classic identifying behaviors of all predatory soiopathic pedophiles, I am secure enough in my self knowledge to move past.
Been there. Had that done by pedophiles, sociopaths, bullies, thugs, and all various low life vermin. And I still remain connected to my humanity. Thus I tried to share that with you. I’ll leave any further words for others to advise you.
Oh, man are they ever good at what they do.
For those who have been following, I’ve been in a custody battle with my ex-spath for the last year, and I am rapidly seeing now everything I have done wrong is now biting me in the arse. I got a lawyer for our trial date a couple of months before (he was pro-se). I should have had her make her notice of appearance much later, because he used the opportunity to drag me to court for a b.s. motion (it was denied, I still had to pay), and used up all my money to her responding to useless e-mails and phone calls. I did not have enough to go to trial. Since there was DV, it was originally ordered not to be any mediation, but the spath was so convincing to the judge about how wonderful he was and how he just wanted to work things out “for the good of the child”, that we were forced to go (which I also had to pay for). Family Court Services was equally persuaded by him, and recommended a 50/50 plan. The mediator said it was pointless and a waste of money to go to trial because he went to a 20 week parenting class (for abusing our kid), which is 10 more than the state requires, and he did soooo well, they asked him to continue to come back and act as a mentor. (!!!!!!) She then said there wasn’t REALLY abuse in the eyes of the court since he didn’t hit me. He even sweetened up my lawyer to the point that I don’t think she really believed he was all that bad. I simply could not beat him. We worked out the parenting plan and modified my restraining order to not going to each others houses and not “disturbing the peace”. My lawyer ended up doing ALL the work in getting everything filed (which I have to pay for), and all that was left was a judgment for $600 from the b.s. motion he filed and the new restraining order. She was supposed to get it in last Friday, but didn’t do it until Monday. In the meantime, I started sending e-mails about the schedule and potential conflicts. Since I only got about 13 hours of sleep last week TOTAL and was pretty pissed to have lost half of my son’s life to this monster, I was not so respectful. HUGE mistake.
Well wouldn’t you know the SECOND I signed, he became Mr. Jeckyl. Now he’s refusing to sign the restraining order and judgment. He didn’t even respond for 3 days. My lawyer asked why she hadn’t heard from him, and I told her “He’s punishing you for making him wait over the weekend. Now he’s going to make you wait.” I know the retaliation game very well. He is now saying that since he didn’t sign the new restraining order we came up with in mediation, I am in violation by not sending “respectful” e-mails, and he’s threatening to demand a new trial now. Of course I can no longer afford that since I’ve just thrown thousands of dollars into doing this agreement.
Does he care about how this new schedule will affect my son, who just got suspended from kindergarten last week for hurting another child? Hell no! He’s forcing him to go from his mom taking him to school every day to him taking him – but of course he can’t take him with his work schedule, and when I went to the parent/teacher conference yesterday, I ran into his psycho sister picking him up. We’re supposed to have every other weekend, but he unilaterally decided to take all of the holidays, so I won’t get him for the next three weekends. Does he care about the fact that my son is always saying, “I don’t want to stay with papa very much – I want to stay with mama”? No way. He got what he wanted through lies and manipulation, and he won. Now he’s going to make me pay for the trouble it caused him having to play “nice” all year, and I’m the only one who saw this coming.
I feel like such a failure. I grieve about signing on to be under his control for the next 13 years, and I especially grieve about the mind games he’s going to start playing on my son. I told him that since I have taken our son to EVERY appointment for the last 5 years, he needed to start taking over as a “joint” parent. My son’s therapist has e-mailed him several times about making an appointment… no response. I spent $200 signing us up for Our Family Wizard to deal with the schedule, but he’s refusing to use it, and since it wasn’t ordered by the court, I guess he never will.
There was about a day that I felt okay with things even though they didn’t go my way. There was some relief in not having to fight anymore. I even questioned whether or not he was really “all that bad” since everyone else seemed to think he was okay. Maybe the custody fight distorted my image of him… maybe I was equally to blame somehow. That’s all gone now. I remember who he is – I KNOW who he is, and he is a sociopath. He WILL continue to make my life hell as long as I have to co-parent with him.
So sad today. I don’t know if I have the strength to do this anymore, I really don’t.
Katydid,
While i appreciate your wise words.. i will not sit here and have you accuse me of being a fake.
I realize how stupid i sound, but why would i put my whole business out there AND risk my spath for reading all this?
I am telling you all because putting it out there REALLY helps me.
YES, she told me we should go away. And the state of mind i was in at that time (when my family found out) i would have left.. BECAUSE THE ONLY PERSON THAT MATTERED WAS HER.
I turned to you all for help.
Because no one else was able to help.. But i guess i will stop since i’m considered a “fake”.
Lost
Don’t be mad at katy she’s just being honest with you.
We have gotten many people in here who are fakes. There is 1 that I currently think is a fake. and last year I was accused of being fake.
Also last year I accused kind heart possibly being fake because I was frustrated with her behavior. I recommended to her that she get a book, ” why is it always about you?” And she told me that she has bought the book and given it away without reading it! What was the point in that? So obviously we don’t always understand each other completely, and many of us are very hurt. Katie wants to see you do better, that’s all.
I would like to mention something else. I have read that narcissist will often look for someone to have sex with who reminds them of themselves when they were youthful. Your teacher is mexican and you are indian. do you have similar colored skin and hair?
my exP was blond as a young man and he often would seek the company of other young blonde men.
He also remembers having A young native american girl as a girlfriend when he was 10. Later I found out that he has a preference For 12 year old native american girls. it’s as if they are trying to relive childhood.
Skylar,
Good advice to Lost. Yes, we can have fakes here although I haven’t been here long enough to pick one out. Thank God for those of you that are seasoned here. You can keep us newbies up on what’s going on here in LF Land.
Soimnotthecrazee1!