By Ox Drover
After reading Steve Becker’s article yesterday, I commented that most of the articles here on Lovefraud that could be entitled “1001 Things I Did Wrong in Dealing with a Psychopath” were the ones that applied most to my own dealings with them.
That was meant as a joke, but after I left that comment for Steve, I got to thinking about how right-on it was, joke or not, because I have done so much wrong in dealing with these people. I got my self deeper and deeper into trouble, doing the wrong things in interacting with them. Not that I was intentionally doing something mean or “wrong” per se, but I didn’t make choices that led to positive outcomes in dealing with the psychopaths in my life.
One of the reasons I did 1001 things wrong was that I didn’t know what I was dealing with. I thought I was dealing with people who had good intentions toward me, just as I had good intentions toward them. Boy, was that a wrong thing to assume. But because I assumed this error in fact about their intentions, I tried to “be reasonable” with them. That sure didn’t work. They broke their word to me time and time again. It took me a long time “to get it through my thick skull,” as MaryJo Buttafuoco said in her book, and then, when I did get it through my thick head that “Person A” couldn’t be trusted, I didn’t “generalize” that knowledge to other people who also broke their words to me over and over and over again.
Learning to generalize
Even animals can learn to generalize. A friend and I trained steer, getting them used to “something that rattled.” It didn’t matter what rattled; we would use plastic milk jugs with rocks in them, and tie those jugs to their tails so that every time they took a step, this “rattling monster” attached to them would make noise and follow them. For a little while they were scared and ran from it, but eventually they got the idea that the “rattling monster” wasn’t going to be outrun by them (it always kept up), and it wasn’t actually going to hurt them. Eventually they decided anything that rattled and made noise was harmless.
With one set of young steers my friend trained though, if you got them used to a white jug with rocks in it, and they weren’t afraid of it any more, if you used a yellow jug, they would go back to SQUARE ONE PANIC AGAIN, with each tiny change in the “monster.” They didn’t “generalize” very well and were always hyper-alert and on guard. He eventually got them so they were “dynamite proof,” so he could take them out in public without being afraid they would panic at the first sound they weren’t used to, or the first loud retort from a fire cracker, but he and I both thought for a long time they might not ever generalize enough to be safe from panicking and running away out in public.
Abusive behavior
I think in a way I also didn’t “generalize” the abusive behaviors of the various psychopaths I encountered. When a boss would be dishonest and verbally abusive to me, I was upset and “panicked” at the unexpected behavior, trying to figure out how to not get hurt, but when a relative would do this same kind of behavior I, again, panicked and didn’t realize that the “rattle” was just the same kind of “monster” that I had encountered with the other psychopath. Of course I didn’t realize then that the psychopathic “monsters” had a name or that their lack of empathy and their damage was definitely destructive, unlike a milk jug with a few rocks in it.
I not only tried to be “reasonable” with the psychopaths, but I also tried to placate them, to make them see, by being extra nice to them and not “bowing up and fighting back,” that I wasn’t trying to hurt them. I wanted to be “friends” and get along.
Of course, when a prey animal tries to get along with a predator animal we know what happens, don’t we? The prey animal gets the worst end of the deal. Yep, I did get the worst end of the deal trying to “make nice” with the psychopaths, but again, I didn’t learn that a psychopath is a psychopath is a psychopath is a predator! Rather than generalize this hurtful behavior to a class of people, I saw each one as an individual person with “reasons” and “excuses” and the “potential to change” and “see the light” when there was no chance that they were going to have any empathy, much less sympathy, for the pain they caused me or anyone else. They didn’t give a hoot how badly they hurt me as long as they got what they wanted.
Wanted to get along
I also didn’t really see what it was that they actually wanted. I didn’t want to cause anyone any pain, I wanted to love people and get along with them and share good things and help folks out. This is what I thought that everyone wanted. What they actually did want, however, was to control me, humiliate me, and to get me to provide them with their own twisted idea of a relationship—all take on their part and all give on mine.
Just like the hyper-alert steers, I didn’t feel comfortable, and was always jumpy, expecting something to hit me, but I wasn’t sure where it would come from, so each time a psychopath lied to me, stole from me, took advantage of me, I was totally surprised again and again.
Eventually that young pair of steers got to where they were not surprised by anything in the way of a loud noise and they calmed down and became a reliable pair of working steers (oxen). But it was only because they learned to move from the individual to the general concepts of what would or would not hurt them. They learned that a little yappy dog running at their feet was not a danger, but that a large aggressive dog was something that they should kick at or hook at with their horns. They learned that the sound of a fire cracker or a car back firing, or a cannon shooting at a historical reenactment, wasn’t going to hurt them and they didn’t need to pay it any attention. They learned to distinguish between harmless noises like people yelling or laughing and their drover saying “get up” and meaning it!
I’m not sure why these particular steers were so difficult to train. Perhaps it was because the breed was the wilder Spanish cattle from Mexico whose ancestors that had not jumped every time there was a noise in the brush had been taken out of the gene pool by the wolves, coyotes and mountain lions, so only the “jumpy” ones were left.
Changed my response
I’m also not sure why I didn’t generalize from the abusive behavior I endured over and over, or change the failed attempts to get it to stop by doing repeatedly something that had not worked. Someone once said, “insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.” I sure did enough of that for two lifetimes. Now I have changed the way I respond to abusive behavior. I am learning to distinguish the difference between “harmless rattles” and “real threats” from predators.
I have made some general “rules” to guide me in my differentiation of what is “harmless” and what is “threatening.” First off, it depends on how close to me the threat is. A rattle snake at 10 yards from me is no threat at all. I know he could hurt me if he was closer, but I will not let him get close enough to strike me, so I don’t have to fear him. If that same rattle snake is 3 feet from me, I take a different view of the potential for harm from the same snake, and react in a different way than I do to the one who is 30 feet away.
If a person who is not “close to me” lies to me, it probably isn’t going to be much of a danger to me, unless it is a big business deal. I don’t fear that lie from someone I don’t really have any connection with, I just notice (like with the rattle snake at a distance) that the person is dishonest, I don’t want him to get closer to me.
If a person who is “close to me” lies, that has a much bigger potential for harm to me, both emotionally and otherwise. Therefore I will move away from that dishonest person, put some distance between me and them so that if they do strike, they won’t be close enough to hit me or do any significant damage.
Threat or benign
Once I have determined that a person, animal, or object is a potential threat rather than a benign creature, I will keep a wary eye on it. I won’t make excuses for the potential damage, and once it has tried to hurt me, it won’t have another chance. I no longer trust anything or anyone without assessing the potential damage that could be done.
Cynical? No, I don’t think so, just cautious. I don’t venture into the world like there are no dangers out there, no evil people. I do know now that there are some evil creatures in the world, some potential threats to my life, sanity and health. But I no longer walk in terror, because I have realized what the evil creatures are. I am no longer terrified of the “rattling milk jugs,” but I give a wide berth to the “poison snakes.”
I’ve finally personally learned from the “1001e things I did wrong in dealing with psychopaths.”
Skylar,
Me telling you guys all my issues, is a big eye opener… if you all shared similar experiences… and tell me more about it.. it helps.
I was posting/reading responses to me at work today and had such a wonderful day… after a very long time.
When i previously went to the ranch with my spath.. (we were on VACATION together) i was seriously freaked out.
But at the time when my family found out about us… i didnt know what or where to go…. so going away with her looked like an amazing option.
I am very openly admitting that i was/still am completely blinded by this person who clearly ruined my life… whether she intentionally did it or not, i will never know.
Yes, there was lies.. a lots of them, but as i mentioned before.. i NEVER did see this EVIL side of her… she did not steal/hit/abuse me. For me to admit to MYSELF that she is this EVIL person… its very hard, but i am hopeful that i will get there because i know it is very much required to move on.
I need encouragement, patience and support from you all. Sharing my experience with my spath… and hearing you all tell me the same thing happened to you… is very… relieving (as selfish as that may sound, it makes me feel.. not so alone).
And Skylar, me and her did not look allike at all..
She is short with short curly hair… and im tall with long straight hair..
I have big eyes, she has small eyes.
I believe she had short hair her whole life.. But at this point… I dont even know. But im going to research waht you just said now. Thank you!!
Dear Lostnconfused,
“Evil” is relative—to me, anyone who lies to me has ABUSED ME, abused my trust which is WORSE to me than if they had HIT ME.
Last year this time I threw my son out of my home and essentially have gone NC with him because he LIED TO ME. I melted down for a month over it, because to me TRUST ABUSE (in other words LIES) ARE EVIL, so maybe your definition of “evil” and my definition of “evil” are not the same.
There was a time when I could GLOSS OVER a lie and “forget” it and “forgive” it (meaning pretend it hadn’t happened) now, NO LIES. NONE, NADA, NIL, ZIP, ZERO LIES!
So to me, My son acted in an EVIL manner, he betrayed my trust. Is that son a Psychopath? No, but he has no remorse for his lie, so he has no respect for me, and he would lie to me again. Therefore he abused my trust, (an evil act in my opinion) by lying, and I can never trust him again. People I cannot trust I do not want in my life. From time to time I will have to have contact with him, but most likely only by the OCCASIONAL e mail, but he will never again be in my “circle of trust.” He will not be someone I want to hang out with, count on or socialize with. If I need something, I will not call him, if he needs something, he can call someone else, I am not his “friend.” I will not go out of my way to hurt him, I don’t hate him, but without trust, what kind of “relationshit” can you have? He wouldn’t steal from me, or rob me, but to me I require more from “a friend” than to not steall from me, I require honesty. He doesn’t have it.
I am sad that my son is not honest. I love him, but I don’t and can’t ever trust him again. Too bad. He lost a mother’s love and trust, I didn’t lose anything except my ILLUSION that he was the kind of man I wanted my son to be. He wasn’t that kind of man. I didn’t raise him to be that way, he chose to be that way, so it is not my problem, it is his. Too bad.
Ox,
I have read many of your articles.. and bookmarked/printed many of them and keep them with me so i can read while i travel to work/school… just to keep things in check.
Going to print out your respond.
You went NC with a SON… a blood relation.
My relationship with my spath is very small compared to yours.
And if you can let go of a child, who betrayed you. I can, AND MUST do the same.
Thank you.
Dear Lost and confused,
I’m glad that my articles have helped you, L&C. I’ve had to learn my lessons the “hard way” by living them so if someone can take my “misadventures” and learn from them then that makes them more worthwhile.
Darling that is the SECOND son I’ve gone NC with, and this second one is not a psychopath, just dysfunctional….the first one I NC’d is in prison or murder, and then he tried to kill me by sending one of his Ex cell mate “friends” to infiltrate our family by renting a house from me to “be friends” and get close enough to us.
Just because someone is BLOOD RELATED does not give them the right to lie to you and to abuse you. I was unfortunately born into a family filled with them and my kids had the genetics on both my side of the family and their father’s side, though their father nor I are psychopaths, both of their grandfather’s are, and several generations back as well.
No one has it “more difficult” than others, it is all the same as far as LOSS is concerned. We lose someone we LOVE—doesn’t make any difference if it is a child, a parent, a lover, etc. it is a loss of a relationship where WE LOVE THEM. The betrayal of a relationship is worse than any random THEFT or BEATING, because it is “personal”—the problem is it is personal to US, but for the abuser, any old person is good enough to abuse, not just us. They are willing to share it around–equal opportunity abuse!
Keep on reading here there is so much to learn. I learn new things every day to apply to my life and how I live it. Life is a journey of learning from the cradle to the grave and how we enjoy that journey is what makes it good. Keep on learning!!! (((hugs)))) and God bless you.
lost,
I’m very interested in the details of your story because I would like to learn how a pedophile does his/her grooming.
I should already know because my first romance, when I was 14 was with a 20 year old man and it just kept going from there. the next was a 27 year old man when I was 15. Then my childhood sweetheart, was 20 when I was 16. then the spath: 28 and I was 17.
But really I don’t get it, either. it all seemed normal for me, but then I was a female and they were male. your case is more difficult to understand because you aren’t gay and she is.
You should start a wordpress blog and write the details. Every single thing that happened in chronological order. Then post the link here. I think it would be very interesting to analyze how they do what they do.
Yes, lost and confused, I’m with Skylar! I’m confused. I need more information to be in any way helpful to you. How did this relationship start? How did a 50 year old womaqn persuade a 20 year old, heterosexual to engage in a sexual relationship…..? Fascinating.
Hi Skylar and Kim.
This is how it all began. Its kinda… crazy.
Tell me if any of your views change after this, as you will probably read… the biggest person to blame in all this situation is.. me.
I was in her class last year. (From August-Decemember). I remember seeing her for the first time… and the way she walked and talked… i just thought she was the coolest person ever. (She has an amazing “swagger” and carries herself really well.) But ofcourse at that point, i just thought… she is going to be my coolest professor ever! Everything was normal until about the end of October. I remember i started talking to her a bit more.. as a student. I would do my projects much better to try and impress her. (I was also 19 at this point, just so you all know…)
Basically we just started talking a BIT more… but nothing serious.. I kind of knew… that i was one of her favorite students because i did my work ( and did it well and because she talked to me a BIT more than her other students, but again at this point… NOTHING is going on and NOTHING is serious, in my head or hers)
But then suddenly something changed. I remember… that i actually started LIKING her… i thought it was normal.. even though she was a woman… i thought many people had a crush on their professor… so me and my ex bf would joke around about it… But somehow… it turned… a lot more serious.
I started thinking about her a lot… i would be so anxious to see her in class… i would talk about her with my classmates… and really THINK about her a LOT.
At this point.. i knew that it was more than a crush.. i had a bf.. but i was REALLY into this woman. So i decided to do something about it (the biggest mistake of my life).
At the end of the year.. i decided to give her a christmas card. And in the christmas card… i included a 2 page note.. just telling her how amazing i thought she was. How much i enjoyed her class.. and how much i looked up to her as a person. How i admired her outgoing and agressive personality.. blah blah blah.
A week later.. i checked my email and i see the response from her… it said.. Thank you for the note… blah blah blah…
I responded to her by telling her we should be friends on facebook.. and she agreed.
When we became friends on facebook… we started talking A LOT. Commenting on each others pictures, writing on the wall etc. (it wasnt anything innapporiate, it was just friendly).
This is all around January. She was on vactation at her ranch (BY HERSELF) when we became fast friends. I gave her my phone # and we started texting each other a lot as well. I met her in school just to drop by and say hi (this is the new semester, so end of jan). At this point, i just KNEW i liked her. I did not think it was wrong.. and i did not know she was 50. I had a boyfriend… but i became very unintereseted in him…. He didnt think anything of it.. me and the professor talking because he knew i was straight… and he thought it was all jokes.
I remember… beginning of feb… there was a snow storm… and i asked her if she was going to teach that day.. and she said yes… so i decided to go to school (even though i knew not many people were going to show up to school because of the snow storm). We met up after her class (mine was cancelled) And she asked me “um, Do you want to get something to eat?” I said yes, and we went to this tiny diner by my school. We had a really nice conversation there.. and i just thought she was the most amazing person ever. Super sweet.. nice.. while still very agressive.
We went out to a dinner after that too.. She picked the place… it was an amazing bar.. All red lights inside.. with loud music… We had such an amazing conversation that night. I remember me and her talking about acceptance or something… and she said.. “you know.. im gay, my mother never accepted it… till this day.. she tolerates it.”
I told her (and i lied, at this point) that even though i had a bf… i liked women too… The conversation was.. just really really good.
I texted her on valentines day… and told her… “I wish i had spent today with you… (because me and my bf did nothing on valenties day, he had to work) And she said the same.
2 days after valentines day was my birthday…
We were talking late night (about 3:00 am, over text). And she said… “I would have loved to spend today with you… a smart, funny, attrative girl”.
I responded and said…”what are you talking about” (i wanted her to say excatly what i wanted to hear).
So she said…
“I dont want to be inappopriate… but i am very attracted to you. I know you have a boyfriend… but i just couldnt go on without lettting you know.”
I was completely shocked, but so.. so happy. I liked her… and i wanted her to like me… and she did.
We talked on the phone the next day about it.. she said.. maybe i shouldnt have told you what i did.. but… i didnt want to be unfair to you or myself.. and yes i really like you. I found myself really attacted to you when we went to dinner that one night.
I told her that i liked her also.. but that i had a bf so i couldnt do anything about it, because i couldnt betray him.
We went to dinner once again after that…
And a week later.. on feb 21st… i broke things off with my boyfriend for good.. left him completely heartbroken… and on feb 28th.. me and her got together.
I left someone who i spend almost 4 years with… someone i grew up with… someone my whole family, friends, and everyone that basically knew me loved me with… for someone who was just so amazing… but it was only the exterior.
I’ll continue to write some more.. but i have to go back and do some work.. haha
Tell me what you all think of all this.
Thanks!
I just want to add…
The reason why i am still in denial about my spath.. is because.. i feel very much responsible for all of this situation.
I wrote the note.. I became involved with her.. I went out of my way to meet her…
How can i possibly blame someone else… if it was all me and my doings?
Sometimes i just wonder…. what if i am overthinking everything… but after reading your resposes.. you all are right… she DID lie… that i know. more than one.. more than twice.. more than 3 times….
It just hurts to know that i put myself in a position just waiting to get hurt… but was rescused before she would have really HURT me (like your spaths did).
She was not done with me… we were just beginning to do more (sexually)… when my mother found out.
I guess i was much luckier than most of you.. because, according to my mom.. a lot worse coulve happened.
Let me know if you all want to know anything else.. and how else you can help me.
its very much needed because rewriting all that stuff for you all reminded me how much i liked her… made me think for a second that maybe she isnt wrong… maybe i am.
I also just want to say.. i was the first one to tell her i love you.
She ofcourse, said i loved you too.
Lost,
I’m gonna think a while before I respond to this post, but I did want to tell you something else.
When all the fall out is done and you can see clearly what has happened to you. You will realize that there was something or someone in your family and how you were brought up, that caused this to happen.
It seems to me that your family might be like mine and not really want you to go out of their control?
Maybe Skylar..
but my family is really really.. just amazing.
But please tell me your true thoughts.