By Ox Drover
After reading Steve Becker’s article yesterday, I commented that most of the articles here on Lovefraud that could be entitled “1001 Things I Did Wrong in Dealing with a Psychopath” were the ones that applied most to my own dealings with them.
That was meant as a joke, but after I left that comment for Steve, I got to thinking about how right-on it was, joke or not, because I have done so much wrong in dealing with these people. I got my self deeper and deeper into trouble, doing the wrong things in interacting with them. Not that I was intentionally doing something mean or “wrong” per se, but I didn’t make choices that led to positive outcomes in dealing with the psychopaths in my life.
One of the reasons I did 1001 things wrong was that I didn’t know what I was dealing with. I thought I was dealing with people who had good intentions toward me, just as I had good intentions toward them. Boy, was that a wrong thing to assume. But because I assumed this error in fact about their intentions, I tried to “be reasonable” with them. That sure didn’t work. They broke their word to me time and time again. It took me a long time “to get it through my thick skull,” as MaryJo Buttafuoco said in her book, and then, when I did get it through my thick head that “Person A” couldn’t be trusted, I didn’t “generalize” that knowledge to other people who also broke their words to me over and over and over again.
Learning to generalize
Even animals can learn to generalize. A friend and I trained steer, getting them used to “something that rattled.” It didn’t matter what rattled; we would use plastic milk jugs with rocks in them, and tie those jugs to their tails so that every time they took a step, this “rattling monster” attached to them would make noise and follow them. For a little while they were scared and ran from it, but eventually they got the idea that the “rattling monster” wasn’t going to be outrun by them (it always kept up), and it wasn’t actually going to hurt them. Eventually they decided anything that rattled and made noise was harmless.
With one set of young steers my friend trained though, if you got them used to a white jug with rocks in it, and they weren’t afraid of it any more, if you used a yellow jug, they would go back to SQUARE ONE PANIC AGAIN, with each tiny change in the “monster.” They didn’t “generalize” very well and were always hyper-alert and on guard. He eventually got them so they were “dynamite proof,” so he could take them out in public without being afraid they would panic at the first sound they weren’t used to, or the first loud retort from a fire cracker, but he and I both thought for a long time they might not ever generalize enough to be safe from panicking and running away out in public.
Abusive behavior
I think in a way I also didn’t “generalize” the abusive behaviors of the various psychopaths I encountered. When a boss would be dishonest and verbally abusive to me, I was upset and “panicked” at the unexpected behavior, trying to figure out how to not get hurt, but when a relative would do this same kind of behavior I, again, panicked and didn’t realize that the “rattle” was just the same kind of “monster” that I had encountered with the other psychopath. Of course I didn’t realize then that the psychopathic “monsters” had a name or that their lack of empathy and their damage was definitely destructive, unlike a milk jug with a few rocks in it.
I not only tried to be “reasonable” with the psychopaths, but I also tried to placate them, to make them see, by being extra nice to them and not “bowing up and fighting back,” that I wasn’t trying to hurt them. I wanted to be “friends” and get along.
Of course, when a prey animal tries to get along with a predator animal we know what happens, don’t we? The prey animal gets the worst end of the deal. Yep, I did get the worst end of the deal trying to “make nice” with the psychopaths, but again, I didn’t learn that a psychopath is a psychopath is a psychopath is a predator! Rather than generalize this hurtful behavior to a class of people, I saw each one as an individual person with “reasons” and “excuses” and the “potential to change” and “see the light” when there was no chance that they were going to have any empathy, much less sympathy, for the pain they caused me or anyone else. They didn’t give a hoot how badly they hurt me as long as they got what they wanted.
Wanted to get along
I also didn’t really see what it was that they actually wanted. I didn’t want to cause anyone any pain, I wanted to love people and get along with them and share good things and help folks out. This is what I thought that everyone wanted. What they actually did want, however, was to control me, humiliate me, and to get me to provide them with their own twisted idea of a relationship—all take on their part and all give on mine.
Just like the hyper-alert steers, I didn’t feel comfortable, and was always jumpy, expecting something to hit me, but I wasn’t sure where it would come from, so each time a psychopath lied to me, stole from me, took advantage of me, I was totally surprised again and again.
Eventually that young pair of steers got to where they were not surprised by anything in the way of a loud noise and they calmed down and became a reliable pair of working steers (oxen). But it was only because they learned to move from the individual to the general concepts of what would or would not hurt them. They learned that a little yappy dog running at their feet was not a danger, but that a large aggressive dog was something that they should kick at or hook at with their horns. They learned that the sound of a fire cracker or a car back firing, or a cannon shooting at a historical reenactment, wasn’t going to hurt them and they didn’t need to pay it any attention. They learned to distinguish between harmless noises like people yelling or laughing and their drover saying “get up” and meaning it!
I’m not sure why these particular steers were so difficult to train. Perhaps it was because the breed was the wilder Spanish cattle from Mexico whose ancestors that had not jumped every time there was a noise in the brush had been taken out of the gene pool by the wolves, coyotes and mountain lions, so only the “jumpy” ones were left.
Changed my response
I’m also not sure why I didn’t generalize from the abusive behavior I endured over and over, or change the failed attempts to get it to stop by doing repeatedly something that had not worked. Someone once said, “insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.” I sure did enough of that for two lifetimes. Now I have changed the way I respond to abusive behavior. I am learning to distinguish the difference between “harmless rattles” and “real threats” from predators.
I have made some general “rules” to guide me in my differentiation of what is “harmless” and what is “threatening.” First off, it depends on how close to me the threat is. A rattle snake at 10 yards from me is no threat at all. I know he could hurt me if he was closer, but I will not let him get close enough to strike me, so I don’t have to fear him. If that same rattle snake is 3 feet from me, I take a different view of the potential for harm from the same snake, and react in a different way than I do to the one who is 30 feet away.
If a person who is not “close to me” lies to me, it probably isn’t going to be much of a danger to me, unless it is a big business deal. I don’t fear that lie from someone I don’t really have any connection with, I just notice (like with the rattle snake at a distance) that the person is dishonest, I don’t want him to get closer to me.
If a person who is “close to me” lies, that has a much bigger potential for harm to me, both emotionally and otherwise. Therefore I will move away from that dishonest person, put some distance between me and them so that if they do strike, they won’t be close enough to hit me or do any significant damage.
Threat or benign
Once I have determined that a person, animal, or object is a potential threat rather than a benign creature, I will keep a wary eye on it. I won’t make excuses for the potential damage, and once it has tried to hurt me, it won’t have another chance. I no longer trust anything or anyone without assessing the potential damage that could be done.
Cynical? No, I don’t think so, just cautious. I don’t venture into the world like there are no dangers out there, no evil people. I do know now that there are some evil creatures in the world, some potential threats to my life, sanity and health. But I no longer walk in terror, because I have realized what the evil creatures are. I am no longer terrified of the “rattling milk jugs,” but I give a wide berth to the “poison snakes.”
I’ve finally personally learned from the “1001e things I did wrong in dealing with psychopaths.”
Oxy, thank you for a wonderful article. I never knew what they really wanted either. Wish we had all figured this out somehow about 30 years ago!! :/
What a good article-it starts ya thinking about things. Ever since I first came on here, I learned SO much about what I was dealing with in my former relationship. Back earlier in the year, this new guy came to work with us at my job. I immediately got red flags about sociopathic tendencies in him. I just decided to watch him real close without getting close to him. He eventually became a “work buddy” that I can cut up with at work.
He finally got me to have a beer with him after work. I had told him all about my horrible experience with my ex-to get his reaction. He tried to act like he was sensitive to it but it was obvious and expected that his sentiments weren’t real and that he didn’t have empathy or conscience. I had a feeling that he was a cheater-after all, he had a lot of characteristics of my ex, who is a cheater. That night when we were having a beer he revealed to me blatantly that he had multiple affairs on his wife and told me about several of them. I immediately started to get really nauseated-especially when he told me how he was “so in love with his wife”. He told me how one of his affairs ended because the younger girl fell in love with him and tried to get him to leave his wife. He told her-“we talked about this from the beginning, this is only an affair, I love my wife and I’m not leaving her”. Then I really started to feel sick and I told him not to bother trying to explain that mentality to me because I didn’t except it. I said, “how can you try to justify that to me when you know what happened to me?”. I had been conned by the married guy and due to my low self esteem, I ignored my morals and went along with it-biggest mistake of my life, and the biggest learning experience. It took me SO long to not believe that God hated me for what I did.
I told him-“if you want to know all about how that girl that you hurt felt, I can tell you.” It is the shittiest feeling ever”. I told him that if he wanted any kind of respect from me, he will never do that again. I told him that he better not ever say how much he loves his wife to me or anyone else and then talk about cheating like it’s no big deal. He told me that he would try to be good and winked at me while he was saying it.
I don’t even want to talk to him anymore. We had a dinner to go to for work last night and I was dreading it because I’m still not able to be social after my experience, and he was planning on bringing his wife. Based on my guilt for what I did in my relationship, I did not want to meet her. I felt bad for her and didn’t want to socialize with her based on what I know about him. I had asked him before-“how would your wife feel about you having these affairs? Do you have an open marriage or something? He said, “no we don’t and she would be devastated.
Prior to all this conversation and revelations from him over beer, he had offered me free help moving into my new place. I have since decided to pay the money to hire a truck and some movers because I don’t want a sociopath in my house or touching my stuff!
Btw, Aussiegirl, I still have a little PTSD left-no fibromyalgia but I do have a 50lb weight gain. I am seeing my doc to find out what the problem is. Things it could be: my thyroid, my stress levels, my lack of productive sleep, vitamin D deficiency, my nutrition, or any combination of the above
Dear NOLONGER—
TOWANDA!!! and good for you. This guy was telling you his tale and trying to set you up for an affair, but one that you would know from the beginning was just that an AFFAIR and not a Relationship outside of that because he “loved his wife”
My P-x BF had had that kind of cheating relationship with his x wife for 32 yrs until she caught him and kicked him out, he had multiple affairs on-going with multiple women all the time and the same thing “I can’t leave my wife” of course as soon as she kicked him out these women wanted him to marry them. He wanted to keep them as a harem, but wanted a “respectable” wife to keep them in line—I was the candidate for the “respectable” wife—until I found out what was going on. THANK YOU JESUS!
You are getting PRETTY DARNED SMART GIRLFRIEND!!! You are so right, you do not need the “help” of a psychopath there is NOTHING TO BE GAINED in a relationship or even a superficial “friendship” with a psychopath–you may have to interact with him some at work, but keep it COOL, DISTANT AND PROFESSIONAL. You can’t go through life without encountering them, any more than I can walk in the woods without coming across the snake or skunk here or there, but the trick is to keep them at enough distance and RECOGNIZE THEM FOR WHAT THEY ARE that you don’t get bitten or sprayed with their stink.
You got the “silver skillet award” for spotting psychopaths for this thread!@.......!! GOOD FOR YOU!!! GREAT JOB!@.......!!!!
Oh boy…..just looked in my inbox.
After no contact for 4 weeks he pops up on here saying ‘please look at my photos’ (attached)
Just as if nothing had happened!
I had the police on him a month ago after he came up here pushing me around.
And now it’s as if nothing had happened and he’s asking me to look at stupid photos of him!!!
As if I would want to?!! Sent them straight to the re-cycle bin.
I know it’s a hook, he’s trying to worm his way back, but I won’t rise to the bait – no way
Candy,
You can block his email address and his phone number too!
Candy, I wonder is totally right. When mine dumped me and then still tried to involve me in drama, I blocked his his home phone, work, cell, and email for a year. He doesn’t try and contact me anymore. It never ceases to amaze what nerve these guys have. I mean really dude, get a clue!
Ox-that’s exactly what he may be trying to do. Part of my problem is really my low self esteem. When I used to come on here, you used to lecture me about it all the time. It made susceptible to the N/P the first time and it makes me think about what it still does to make this dude think that he can invade my life. Even though I’ve learned so much, I still am amazed that he could just sit there on a bar stool and tell me all this stuff and think that I would react how? That line of thinking makes no sense to me at all. The thing that bothers me is that I don’t see him revealing those things to any other people that we work with. Why me? What kind of vibe am I putting out? Is it my low self esteem? I automatically think-I am overweight and I don’t look good and he is really fit. He wouldn’t be attracted to me. Is that what makes him think he can get away with this with me? That’s why I’m confused!
Dear nolongernaive,
I think sometimes we have this sign on our foreheads that is “INVISIBLE” TO NORMAL PEOPLE, but NEON to psychopaths “WELCOME PSYCHOPATHS, VICTIM HERE!” LOL Yes, I can “lecture you” but I am really LECTURING MYSELF TOO. LOL I have that same sign over my head! I think it is like a some sort of scent we give off that attracts them.
I wish I knew what it was I would stop it, or wear some kind of perfume to cover it up, but there is something about us that they find “attractive” as a potential victim.
I know in the wild lions and other predator cats will make “lunges” at a herd to make the herd run when they are not really trying to catch a particular animal, just to see when the herd runs WHICH ones are limping or which ones appear slower or sick or old or young and unsure on their feet. Then they will TARGET those specific animals that have some sort of limp or something that will make them easier prey.
I think part of it, and looking at what you said he told you “over a beer”—to start with I am ASSUMING that you and he went alone for a beer and that you knew he was married. OK, I have male FRIENDS and my husband didn’t mind, and sometimes we did things together but my male friends KNEW UP FRONT that it was FRIENDSHIP not anything else so no problem…but I think maybe he was TESTING you there just to see if you would go have a beer with him. (You went to have a beer, so in HIS MIND, this probably meant that you MIGHT BE A BETTER TARGET for an affair than a woman who would have refused right off the bat and said “No, sorry I can’t go have a beer with you because you are married and I wouldn’t want to give someone who saw us together the “wrong idea” about our relationship as friends.”)
Then, he started telling you about the affairs he had had with other women. This was a “test” to see what your reaction would be to his DISHONESTY AND SEXUAL CHEATING. Did you say “That is a dishonest and hurtful thing to do to your wife” or did you say “well, I can understand how folks sometimes cheat” ???
In this case, because of your knowledge of psychopaths and their cheating and knowing how it hurts the wife (if she finds out etc) and how NO ONE WHO HAS MULTIPLE AFFAIRS REALLY IS ABLE TO LOVE OR SHOW RESPECT FOR A MATE then you let him know you didn’t approve of that so you FLUNKED his “test” of potential partners. Good for you BTW and it does take improved self esteem in order to stand up for what is right! So you have improved and gotten stronger and wiser! TOWANDA!!!! Good for you! I’m proud of you! (((hugs))))
I used to know a guy, not particularly good looking or anything, but he traveled a lot and he would walk down the street in a town and as he approached a woman coming the other way would look her in the eye and say “Hey, do you want to f_uck?” He said (and I believe him) that it was amazing how many women would take him up on it. Sometimes he would get slapped, but if he asked 100 women and got 1-2 that said yes, he was happy…so yea, that’s how he can sit there and ask those questions and tell you that stuff…he has nothing to lose. If you say yes, he gets laid, if you say no, he doesn’t care, he will just find some other woman, as far as he is concerned one woman is as good as another…
IWonder – Nolongernaive
Thanks – good advice.
He knows I will NEVER answer him – made that clear, and never have.
I keep him on there cos I know if he’s on the pute he’s not here! Does that make sense?!
It’s just…….I’m exasperated that he just says look at my pics – after everything that’s gone on, they just don’t get it do they.
I think his ‘current’ girlfriend is getting fed up of him and the novelty is wearing off so he thinks he can worm his way back here for Christmas.
If he comes he’ll have a very long and wasted journey cos I move out tomorrow.
Would love to have cctv to see the look on his face when he turns up and the house is empty.
Good luck with the doc.
Ox-I went to get a beer because initially it was supposed to be another coworker going with us-a married female whose husband is aware that she loves her beer. The sociopath is very “social” and he claims that his wife knows that he socializes with coworkers all the time. The big issue that I had was that he was pulling the wool over her eyes because she trusts him and that’s sad. The other female coworker ended up not going at the last minute. I thought about not going too but he really wanted to go and I wanted to find out if my suspicions were correct about him because I think he’s a predator. I was spot on about everything. I told him all about what I did with my ex and that is was persuaded to go against my morals for the first time and I was devastated hurt for doing it and it was the first and ONLY time that was EVER going to happen. I asked him if he knew how bad it hurts a woman to be cheated on and he got real quiet and I got no response. I went on about that for awhile and then just found that it’s obvious that he has no conscience. I told him that what he was doing was completely unacceptable and that he was a jerk for doing it. He doesn’t care. I finished my beer as quick as I could and told him that I really had to get home. I’m not afraid of him. I’m armed and proficient with the gun but I don’t care to associate with him other than working together on cases. It’s a waste of time and energy to try and convince him to see things my way. You can’t reason with a psychopath. I’m just relieved that my ability to read people is coming back and that will help me out in my career.
I was talking to a girlfriend from work when she was helping me move furniture and she made a comment about having the word crazy written on her forehead. Before she met and married her husband she was a magnet for crazy guys. I joked about having the word psycho written on my forehead with invisible ink, meaning only psycho guys are interested in me. I’m glad I came back here now because I am different and much improved from the last time I was here on the blog and I feel that I have more to add to these new people who are deep into the painful part of their circumstances. I really want to help people as much as I can and I am really excited about taking a class that I’m starting to venture into a different area of practice. I’m so excited for my life right now. I am moving out of my mold infested tiny slum apartment and got a dream place that is just like having my own house. I am just starting to say ok- I’m fat right now, but it’s not the end of the world. I am starting a whole new nutrition/exercise program after the first of the year and I am enjoying myself right now-getting more sleep and de-stressing.
I think you spoke to someone else on here on another thread about stress causing health problems. I’m a nurse like you and I couldn’t agree more.
Dear nolongernaive,
GOOD FOR YOU!!!! Yea, I’m fat too, but they are EVIL and I can diet and lose the weight but they will be FOREVER EVIL! LOL
In fact, I am on a low sodium lower calorie diet and doing pretty well, I had gained 60 pounds over 6 years since my husband died and my sugar was going up a bit and my BP up a bit but now with the lower calorie diet and the loss of 10% of my body weight, the BP and the Blood glucose are normalized and the edema is going away with the lower sodium (AHA 1500 mg recommendation—I was probably actually eating 8-10K mg of sodium!) So I’m having to relearn to cook, and teach my body new ways with food, but I’m working on taking care of MYSELF now instead of giving 110% to everyone else and keeping NOTHING FOR ME!
GOOD for you, and I’m so glad that you came back! I’m glad that you are doing well and weren’t too turned off by my preaching at’ya! Sometimes we try to reach out to folks but they aren’t quite ready to receive the truth yet, and God knows I have BEEN THERE IN THAT SPOT, for decades I didn’t want to believe the truth about my psychopathic son, or how my egg donor had treated me, etc. but now I can face that UNHAPPY and painful truth and still go on! So can you! You’re getting smarter by the minute!
Take care of YOU and the stress will decrease, the health will improve and life itself will get better.
BTW there is a site called http://www.fatsecret.com that is where I have a membership and it helps record your food/calorie intake and exercise/calories burned and gives great support. You can have “buddys” there and I am Ox Drover there so when you get ready for a NEW NUTRITIONAL PLAN (Don’t call it a “diet”) come on over there and join up, it is actually FUN and helps keep me “honest” in my eating by having to write it down! Glad to have you back here too…the more the merrier!