By | February 21, 2014 82 Comments

A sociopath asks, ‘Why should we change?’

Editor’s note: Lovefraud recently received this email in response to a previous article written by a self-proclaimed sociopath.

I’ve read the article titled A sociopath claims, ”˜We are the uniquely gifted,’ and most of replies to it.

First of all I’d like to make clear that the author of that letter is narcisisstic and quite delusional as he thinks himself some kind of superhuman. But apart from that, most of the things he said are true.

Wouldn’t you use the so called ‘gift’ of manipulation if it ensured you got what  you wanted if the goal was otherwise unattainable? After all, it is you who let us manipulate you.

From replies you can clearly see that people are afraid and that’s the first sign of weakness a sociopath would spot. And I must say I’m disgusted by comments such as this: “I say put ’em all together on a tiny little island and they can lie as intelligently as they please and prove how gifted they are to EACH OTHER!!!”  Is this what I’m supposed to show pity to?In reply to the comment I say that most sociopaths are clever enough not to try it on each other. Even if we do, it’s more of a game than anything else.

Second of all, saying that we can’t feel love is a shameless lie. We are capable of loving, only it’s in our nature to be suspicious, so it takes time to form a real relationship. Only because you haven’t proven to be worthy of it, doesn’t mean someone else won’t. Claiming that we’re uncapable of being in a relationship or being parents is offensive.

And making a group that demonises us doesn’t exactly give us a reason to ignore our abilities so you could lead happier lives.

Other than that I believe that the idea of us being ruthless, merciless and such, unfortunately comes from our own circles, as some individuals, such as the man who wrote the article, can’t help but brag about his ‘gifts.’ Highly functioning sociopaths won’t let you know what they are, nor will you be able to recognize them in a crowd.

I don’t understand why you put criminals, killers and lunatics as an example of a sociopath and psychopath as most of us are intelligent enough not to ruin our own lives by 1st exposing ourselves and 2nd engaging in a criminal activity. Most of those criminals have far worse diagnosis than sociopathy and psychopathy to go along with these.

And lastly, why should we change? I always looked down on people my age, and as a result I used to read 5 books a week from when I was 10. I still read a lot and am working on improving myself as well as my ‘abilities’ as I admit I have no respect for today’s society in which you’re judged as a freak as soon as anyone realizes you’re too intelligent to watch ‘Big brother’ like the rest of the ‘normal’ crowd.


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I love it when these deranged creatures attempt to justify their behavior. And it’s clear the writer is a spath when he asks “wouldn’t you use the gift of manipulation to get what would otherwise be unattainable”. No Mr. Spath, we with a conscience would weigh the ramifications of such behavior in relation to its affects on other people and our moral compass would guide us to do the right thing. This is the difference between you and I my friend.


I’m definitely not their biggest fan (obviously, as I’m on this site), but I wouldn’t go so far as to call them deranged creatures. Last I checked, they’re people too…


i am pretty sure theyre NOT human. not. at. all.

still reeling

Agreed “ain’t”. Physically they resemble humans but as “lifeisgood” points out, a *conscience* separates them from anything even remotely human.
Since realizing the creature in my life was socio, I don’t use pronouns besides “it” to describe it.


Agreed. They LOOK human, but they are monsters without conscience. Period.


“doesn’t exactly give us a reason to ignore our abilities so you could lead happier lives.”

WTF? Seriously?

They call lying/manipulating/stealing/destroying lives/emotionally scarring people/making others feel at blame for things they didn’t do/using kids to hurt another parent/cheating/physical abuse/ectect… they call that an ability??? That is not an ability as anyone on this planet could do any of that if they so chose too. That is nothing more than them yet again justifying things they do in their minds so they don’t feel wrong, to them this is now not wrong what they do cause its an “ability”

“somebody worthy of our love”

LOL, these people don’t deserve to breathe the same air as us.


Well done, Dave. Sociopaths are inhuman the way I see it. I would also question the statement ‘it is you who let us manipulate you’ as a normal person wouldn’t allow manipulation obviously. We are manipulated because we’re unaware of the evil motives of sociopaths and able to trust normal people. How are we supposed to know you’re not normal? As for putting them on a small island together. That isn’t to pity us it’s so that you can all play your evil games with people who won’t be harmed by you fakes.


I know super intelligent people who read 5+ books a week and don’t watch junk on TV, who are NOT psychopaths. One can be very intelligent and also have a conscience. Although many ‘successful’ (don’t get caught) psychopaths are intelligent, the one I encountered was not particularly intelligent, which, along with the grace of God and the resources I have been blessed with, enabled me to get free with relatively less financial loss and personal damage than those who are victimized by very clever P’s. However, the motivation is the same, and he would have taken from me and done whatever he could get away with, just like any other psychopath.


also, after all that reading, shouldn’t you know the word is not ‘uncapable’ – the correct word is ‘INCAPABLE.’ Keep reading and keep out of mischief.

Here’s how I look at it…..

People who lack conscience simply don’t understand what conscience means. They don’t relate to the fact that it’s conscience that gives us “humanity,” and without it we are beast-like. While a lion is cunning and strong, they can kill their young if the need arises, without the least bit of remorse. Sociopaths are as superior in the animal kingdom as other beasts of prey. Mankind is considered a higher life form due to our humanity.

Sociopaths don’t perceive their ability to harm you or turn you into their “prey” as the result of a defect in their character. The “stop” button we know as conscience is missing. Without that “stop” button, the only modifier for their behavior is “what’s in it for me,” and “how can I avoid getting caught?”

If you have a conscience, you can recognize lack of a stop button in others as a flaw. But if you don’t have a conscience, you don’t get it.



So well said Joyce – so thankful for the clarity on this site after all the years of living with smoke and mirrors created by the Me Monster.


jm_short, Bravo!!!You certainly nailed the explanation of having no conscience. It is what gives us humanity:) So glad that I have the “stop button”.


me too!


This article contains some interesting research that seems to indicate that the sociopath’s lack of caring about others feelings and lack of conscience is to some extent a choice.


Lack of conscience may be a choice but how much is determined by genes and how much by environment…that is the question. I feel that our modern society is fostering the spread of the psychotic personality when our moral foundation is quickly becomming a foundation built on pure selfish materialism. We no longer venerate and applaud morality but seek personl elevation built on the mighty dollar and the acutrements it brings.It’s more what we wear, the cars we drive, the homes we live in that drives our current society. How many people in politics, business, the legal profession etc. truly cares about conscience? What does conscience bring except peace of mind to the owner?

Moving On

this was all very interesting, Thank you for posting it. I like the way he describes how the more clever spaths won’t show their hand. It validated my experience. Although the spath in the article just did, does that make him more the fool instead of clever? LOL
Of course all I keep thinking is that the spath just wanted to play with us and have a reaction from us. Its what they do.


His grandiosity doesn’t allow him to see he’s a fool. I know one thing; he’s fooling nobody here.


Is this what I’m supposed to show pity to?

This person’s grammar is atrocious. It makes it very difficult to believe he is a superior being.

It also seems apparent that this person believes empathy is the same thing as pity. He either has no frame of reference because he’s incapable of feeling those two emotions, or he’s not as smart as he thinks he is. Perhaps both apply.


To the spath author: The author asks why should psychopaths change?

Because in order to have a well-functioning society where those with more ability, more resources, and more just pure luck care in socially responsible ways for the needs of those with less ability, those who are sick, or injured, or old, or otherwise in need, society needs members who have normal human empathy, compassion, and altruism. Social systems depend on group trust, and group cooperation. Machiaveillian behaviors: narcissism, lack of empathy, ruthlessness, lying, manipulating, stealing, murder, and exploitative behaviors wreck the system.

If *everyone* behaved as psychopaths behave: totally self-centered, willing to do anything, including lie, cheat, steal from others or even murder others in order to gratify their own self-interest, then our society would fall apart overnight.

If doctors and surgeons routinely cheated and lied and bribed their way through medical school, would you want one of them operating on you?

If firemen only responded to alarm calls if you bribed or blackmailed them into doing so, then how could you trust them to actually save your home or put themselves in danger to carry your child out of a burning building? Why should they? They could simply show up, knock you out, claim that you burned up in the fire and take all your valuables.

If everyone thought and felt and operated the way psychopaths / sociopaths do, it would be like our society was somehow slammed back in time into a warring tribal era. Or like those post-apocolyptic movies. Life would be incredibly wretched.

Psychopaths wish to live in a well-functioning, rational, compassionate social system as much as any non-spath does, so you can either contribute to the system or you can wreck the system for everyone, including yourself. You idiot.


“Wouldn’t you use the so called ’gift’ of manipulation if it ensured you got what you wanted if the goal was otherwise unattainable?”

Manipulation is not a gift. It is a tool of deceit which uses subterfuge to gain advantage and surreptitiously abuse other people who are trusting and therefore trustworthy.
Trustworthy people do not need or want to stoop to such depravity as using tools of deceit to hurt others.
People who refrain from callously hurting others recognize that they don’t hurt another so much as they hurt themselves when they act as opportunistic predators who fly under the radar and take advantage of those who are trusting and trustworthy.

Also, using manipulation as a tool to “get what you want that is otherwise unattainable” is not something a normal empathetic person would do, no.
If something is “unattainable” then work for it like a normal person would. Deceiving people to get what you want is flat out fraud and it’s only your disordered thinking that gives you unchecked license to abuse other people and think its ok.
You’re a kook.
Here’s a thought. Just stop doing anything. Leave others alone and stop trying to schmooze your way to whatever pinnacle you think you deserve.
If you’re so clever, work for the good things in life rather than preying on others like a flipping kook.


The fact that this person has to even ask about the benefits of being honest with others means to me he has “missed the human boat.” With my spath, and with others I have known, friendships are nonexistent. A friend is someone they can use and abuse to take care of their selfish needs. They have never had a reciprocal, loving relationship.

Obviously, the sociopaths do not care if they have friends. Mine has none. The man is 54 years old and even his two grown daughters will not communicate with him, unless they absolutely have to do so. Of course, he rationalizes all of this so that he will not have to suffer. The real irony of this is that he has done it to himself.


hinahina – you nailed it! This line made me chuckle – “Also, using manipulation as a tool to “get what you want that is otherwise unattainable” is not something a normal empathetic person would do, no.” Not long ago my ex bragged repeatedly about his ‘female friend’ buying a new Harley and parking it in his yard. He said she told him that he could use it ‘anytime he wanted to’. LOL He really thought that it would bother me and kept bringing it up to try to rub it in my face. I told him that he is the only person I know who would be so PROUD to use someone else’s bike like it’s his own, rather than BUYING HIS OWN. I was like ‘why are you bragging??? It’s actually pretty sad.’. It was so pathetic…like most of his behaviour. lol

The level of dysfunction can vary in a pretty broad range. So trying to paint all morally disordered folks with a broad, all encompassing brush never works. I think it’s sufficient to say that they lack “affective” empathy and therefore “conscience.”

That’s not to say that they didn’t learn the morals of society as they developed. They just didn’t apply that morality to themselves. If they choose to conduct themselves in a way that “fits” into an acceptable pattern of behavior they can. But their selfish interest, not their concern for others, is what keeps them in check.

They know wrong from right. Their decision to conduct themselves “wrong” or conduct themselves “right” is not motivated by morality, but by personal gain.

At the darkest end of the spectrum, they are compelled to do wrong, but I believe that convenience and self interest guides the behavior of most morally disordered people. And that’s why they are tried for their crimes. They made a selfish choice to harm others.

My book conveys a better sense of this than what I can discuss here.



Again, this guy is not a psychopath: he is, like the writer of first letter, megalomaniac (see my post in the “We are uniquely gifted” forum.)
Psychopaths would never engage in such writings or arguments. A real psychopath has no time for such thing. Only those who crave attention engage in such arguments. To me, a psychopath defending psychopathy is like a mad man saying that he is not mad. It does not work!


Like a Zen koan, the unanswerable question of “why” a kook “should” change spurs me on to try and answer it!!
So I shall.
A kook type person “should” change their unacceptable and predatory behavior because in any system, in any model, in any program, their approach results in a net loss over time and is therefore unsustainable.
As agents of unnecessary and unwelcome destruction, going about their tasks of interpersonal abuse, they deliver no benefits.
And that, my friends, is why kooks should change.
Only a kook would ask such a lame question.
He may not be serial killer level psychopath but certainly as a social predator, pegs squarely somewhere on the scale of the assay.


A psychopath will never change as he/she continually finds victims to bleed. If one victim balks, he/she just goes on to find other new ones. Only if he commits major infractions (i.e. kills), is he ever brought to justice.


“I don’t understand why you put criminals, killers and lunatics as an example of a sociopath and psychopath as most of us are intelligent enough not to ruin our own lives by 1st exposing ourselves and 2nd engaging in a criminal activity. ”

A large amount of the people you mention above DO FALL in the sociopath/psychopath category, maybe unfortunate for a handful of you that consider yourselves “normal” within an abnormal construct.

We do not existed to vilify ourselves, rather to give testimony to the destruction, violence, and crime committed against us by others who are sociopaths and psychopaths.

People who manipulate life situations, control the people in them like pieces on a board in their own diabolical chess game, are doing something VERY wrong.

Hey if you feel love that’s great, if you can sustain it longer than deciding you’re going to move on to the next person due to your current partner “is suddenly not worthy”, you need to examine that. In the meantime, we’ll run as far away as possible.

Well said Flicka! It’s high time for some societal enlightenment so their misdeeds land on less shoulders!



Your arguments indicate that you have a conscience. They are entirely irrelevant to someone with a disordered mind.

They have no interest in “society.” Their interest is strictly themselves. Society simply provides them with the means to fulfill their needs. And folks who forgo self interest in exchange for doing what’s best for society are simply “chumps” in their opinions.



Hi Joyce,

Exactly. That is how psychopaths think; they are users, cheats, and they’re lazy. They’d rather just suck someone else dry than actually work. They’re like parasites.

But one of the reasons our society can function at all is that there aren’t many spaths. Their numbers are small, only 2% or 3% of the population, and yet they commit most of the crimes. However, if the number of psychopaths in the population increases, then our society, our culture, is doomed.

Its like an animal that develops too many parasites inside and outside its body, sucking it dry: the animal can’t remain healthy, can’t live very long if its infested with too many parasites.

That’s why psychopaths need to change, that’s my argument. Psychopaths need to change because its in their own selfish best interest: if the parasite kills its host, then the parasite dies too.


Sociopaths do not care! Simply because they do not let feelings interfere with their actions, they feel they are superior human beings. I.e. according to Robert Hare, not caring about others for example, allows them to hire and fire at will and thereby climb the business ladder to success. The same goes for a lot of politicians, “stars” and athletes such as Lance Armstrong, people in the financial world (Bernie Madoff), people in the legal professions, religious leaders etc….any professions which exert power and control.


Honestly, I am not at all surprised by this article and it’s author. I have had to deal with two sociopaths in my life and family. Both of them considered their behavior as totally normal and very intelligent just like the author of this article is saying. They were also very offended when the reality of their behavior is brought to their attention. I agree with what freedomfare says about the mad man saying he is not mad.

In my own experience, I have found that sociopaths live in delusion (in their own little world). They are intelligent monsters who leave a wake of destruction and put themselves on a pedestal for it (or play the victim of those that they have hurt), just like the author the author of this article.

So not surprised.


Dear Sociopath who will not change:

This website is for people who want to depart from the company from someone like you! Nobody smart sticks around and wants to be hit by the stupid stick by someone lacking moral integrity. Sorry, but you are pathetic and I would guess highly under educated. A sociopath is not just someone who is a serial rapist, murderer, thief, et cetera…but someone who is incapable of feeling empathy or sympathy for people they have wronged. They can pretend to…usually in court to get money or to stay out of prison!

A classic example is a woman who hears a report of a teenage girl being held at gunpoint, sadistically raped, and then made to beg for her life, and threatened by a societal termite he will kill her loved ones if she tells the police. A sociopathic woman would say, “You should have grabbed the gun and hit him over the head with it! What is wrong with you?!!!”

A sociopathic woman has sex with family members well into adulthood. A sociopathic woman sleeps with the significant others of every woman they know because they imagine it boosts their shallow confidence to act like an UNPAID hooker. A sociopathic woman will milk married and single men out of their life savings in some hair-brained scheme, because they are too lazy and stupid to get an education and make the money themselves! Sociopathic women will sleep with their own children and other people’s children, because they are reliving the abuse they experienced as a child and are too stingy and stupid to get help to clean out their junk in the trunk. Sorry but you sound like a greedy and sleazy fool in your article. Mark my words, you will grow old all by yourself. When people discover what you are made of, they drop tail and run like hell!


I don’t care how right or intelligent or whatever this loser thinks he is…..the reality of the matter is that they have to lie and manipulate people in order to have ANYone in their lives. They can’t wipe their own butts so they will do anything they possibly have to in order to get someone to do it for them. They can’t function in the real adult world as a real genuine human being and if they were hones about their intentions, thoughts, lack of feelings, beliefs, etc…etc…etc.. they would be shunned by all but the lowest of the low.
They live is a self created prison and the cost of being willing to do anything to anyone in order to obtain their short lived pleasures is to loose the ability to ever have anything real, long term or valuable. Mine substitutes this by living in his mommy basement at the age of 48!! Who wouldn’t want that?? LOL!!!! He can’t make a woman happy to save his life! But Mommy is sure proud of “His Highness”
He will “live” out the rest of his days with a bottle in one hand and his pee pee in the other, alone a prisoner of his own lies. You would think someone so frigging brilliant could have perfected SOME soil other than destroying women but alas, he has not.


BAHAHAHA! you just described my ex to a T!! except it’s his gf, not his mom he lives with(17 yrs younger than him). SHE doesn’t work either. Her dad supports them both as far as I know. He is also 48. What a catch! LOL but he seriously thinks he’s god’s gift to women….no car, no job, missing teeth, losing hair…looks like a crackhead. ummm, sorry buddy..NOT attractive in the least. not to mention extremely pathetic! hahaha! It’s amazing how they manage to convince people that ‘anything’ is not their fault.

ps. he looked 20 yrs younger when I fell for slimy ways…and had his hair, teeth, a job and a truck. lol


Yeah……the whole picture of Spathtardx is this…..married and divorced 4 times, 3 children, two may not even be his (according to the POS), Oh my, SO much to remember……Arrested and convicted for domestic violence (of course he was not honest with me about this, at least the REAL story), he’s an alcoholic , in bankruptcy, driving his dead father’s car on his mother’s insurance police, living like an adolescent in her basement and being taken care of by her because “Spathtard can’t live by himself……it destroys him”….he’s an alcoholic, chain smokes, balding, a pathological liar, parasitic user, bad actor, gives people the creeps, a pervert, more than likely “interested” in children and a real live psychopath.
But the guy who wrote this letter has somehow set himself aside from people who are as pathetic as Spathtardx………riiiiiiight……..


Sorry about the type-o’s……I couldn’t get the edit feature to work apparently.


Aparently this moron doesn’t understand the concept of manipulation!! LOLOLOL!!! The whole point of manipulating someone is to do it in a way that they are not aware of so how can “WE” allow you to manipulate us. That was clearly a telling statement in and of it’s self and just so typical. Blame the victim……… That’s like saying it’s someones fault they got mugged because they weren’t strong enough to defend themselves…….they allowed themselves to be mugged?? SERIOUSLY? Dumb.


Rebuttal to : “After all, it is you who let us manipulate you.”

This statement reflects the “reasoning” skills of a disordered person.

“After all”, in their mind, allows them to feign a cover of plausability. As though everyone else is a dupe for them to use and abuse without concern for any damage they might cause.

“It is you who let us…”, as though we, who are kindhearted are nothing more than the targeted fools who they pull all their phony stunts of abuse and manipulation on because …”we LET them”… abuse us by not seeing through their sly con game of various forms of abusive attacks upon us.

“…You let us manipulate you…”, as though we are standing by, waiting and hoping that some horribly messed up, personality disordered goofball will come along and “entertain” us with their high drama dysfunctional behavior.

Oh, yah, kook guy. That’s us alright. NOT.

Plus, in your letter you mention someone is a narcissist but not a psychopath. Easy enough because a narcissist does not have to exhibit psychopathic behavior but a psychopath will exhibit narcissistic behavior.

The range of the disordered in this model rates mild kooks as narcissist, medium level kooks rate in as sociopathic and full blown, out of control sleaze tards can be thrown in the psychopathic dust bin of wasted living choices.

By the way the question is not why should you change. The question is when will you get a freaking clue and just stop being a jerk?


The relatively low ratio does not portend the large amount of devastation they carry out. KIM- they behave in a serial fashion. They don’t just harm one person; they harm many.

Unfortunately, the adult morally disordered person is unlikely to change. They see no need….. they hurt others, they see those “others” as fools, and when found out, they just cut bait and move on to their next “vic.”

So the means to stem the growing dynamic is two fold, warning the adult community of how they function, and focusing on the development of the younger generation. It’s imperative that society become aware of how to instill “affective” empathy in our children, and the peril of not doing so.

As a parent, I realized my son lacked empathy. It was apparent to me very early on, but I thought it was simply a “maturity” issue and it would change. No mental health professional I took him to advised me of any concerns or means to build empathy in my child.

One morning, he came into my room when he couldn’t have been older than 4, and said, “Joey’s dead.” That was his pet rabbit who I’d just seen bouncing around in his corner a couple of minutes before. I said, “I just saw him, Honey. He probably just went back to sleep.” “Nope, he’s dead,” he said in a tone that completely lacked expression. “Will you make me some pancakes for breakfast?”

We used to keep Joey on a long metal leash in order to allow him greater run than sequestering him in a cramped hutch. Rabbits are notorious for eating anything and everything, including electric wiring, so giving him free reign in the house was not an option. I walked over to his area and saw him lying on the stairs with his eye dangling out of it’s socket and blood running from his head. He was definitely dead.

I turned to my son in horror and said, trying to be as non-judgmental as possible, “what happened to Joey?”

“I just wanted to see what would happen,” he replied.

I took a stuffed animal from his room and put it into his hands. “Show me what you mean,” I said.

My little guy held the toy by the neck and pounded its head into the wall.

By the time my son completed high school, he’d worked with at least 4 different mental health professionals. His oppositional/defiant behavior was off the charts, and he was placed by the board of ed into a special school, presumably where he would get the help he needed. As an adult, it’s my belief that he has Borderline Personality Disorder.

If I knew back when he was young that his father’s genetics and abandonment could affect my little boy as it did, I could have done something to intervene. Now, all I can do is thank my lucky stars that I gave him enough structure and caring that he didn’t turn into a Ted Bundy. He could have. He’s mean, he’s abusive, and he’s gone. I can’t begin to express the pain of losing my son to this disorder.

My only consolation is that he doesn’t chop people up for lunch.

There are things that can turn the tide for these children. We have to get the message out. That’s one of the reasons I wrote my book, “Carnal Abuse by Deceit.” ……to open people’s eyes to this problem.



Yes, I stated that point: that although there are relatively few psychopaths in the population, they commit most of the crimes.

Thanks for agreeing with me!

I also agree with you that the quality of having empathy or not having empathy for other living creatures, either animals or other children, shows up really young. I could see actual compassion and empathy in my nephew when he was not quite three yet. He’s grown up to be a wonderful young husband and father himself, and loves playing on the floor with his own small children. I hope that better interventions and treatments can be developed for very small children who show those specific callous, unemotional, unempathetic, cruel behaviors, so that there might be hope for them to develop real, affective empathy and avoid growing up to be psychopaths. My heart goes out to you, RE your son.



Joyce, I am so sorry to hear about your son’s difficulties. It must be so heartbreaking. Without all the good you did for him, he would be much worse off. How old is he? Change may be possible, but it is difficult to repair the damage done to a son by his father’s abandonment.


I still think the earlier term “moral insanity” is a more appropriate description for this disorder than “psychopathy” or “sociopathy” or “antisocial pd”. The latter are too mild, too clinical.

And I still think that its very interesting that the author would not find it agreeable to be placed in a “colony” consisting of nothing but other psychopaths. Psychopaths actually want to live in an agreeable, orderly, compassionate, ethical and empathetic culture and society as much as the rest of us do: they do not wish to live exclusively among their own kind.

That is because they KNOW it would be like… being a piranha fish living amongst a school of other piranha fish. If one piranha fish is slightly nicked and their blood seeps into the water, the other piranha fish savagely turn on their fellow and rip and shred him to death, instantly, eating him while he’s still alive. That is what would happen to a psychopath living only amongst other psychopaths.

They don’t like that idea at all.

Psychopaths want to benefit from living in an evolved, altruistic, compassionate, empathetic society where the injured and ill are looked after… but they also perversely want to exploit and misuse the altruism and generosity and goodwill of such an evolved society.

Well, my point is that you can’t have it both ways, my dears. If our society becomes overrun by psychopaths, by the morally insane: if the psychopaths increase to more than 2% or 3% of the population, then we are ALL doomed, *including the spaths.*

I am addressing the psychopaths directly now: Don’t kill your hosts, spaths. Don’t be a stupid parasite that totally sucks your host dry. If your host dies, the host’s parasites die too. So STOP REPRODUCING, spaths: limit your numbers so that all of us, spaths and non-spaths alike, can manage to survive, somehow, in spite of your counter-productive, toxic, destructive existence.


You know I think my personally favorite part of his diatribe is that just because they didn’t love US doesn’t mean they can’t love. It’s that we weren’t lovable enough for them.

The last morally bankrupt man I got tangled up with was a master at making women feel they just weren’t ‘all that’. He was right up there with the that crazy ex-husband of Christie Brinkley.

Show me a super-model, rocket-scientist, heiress, or anyone else…. and I’ll show you a psychopath who is tired of her, and thinks it’s all her general lack of ‘fill in the blank’ that has made him lose his ‘loving feeling’ for her.

We are labeled gullible, an easy target, not smart enough, fat, trusting, naive, or whateverotherbullsheet.

The point is us-taking-responsibility.

Not them.




Very well said. I totally think this true. They would definitely not thrive without us. Deal is they don’t care about themselves as a whole. Only as individuals. Sick thought. They are probably quite capable, as are the viruses among us, to destroy the very ideologies, systems, and individuals that make their existence possible.

This is the sad, and larger truth, about the morally bankrupt among us. They will take the whole ship down if they think it means they won.

Wow, Debbie Downer here…

The point is, really, besides my own beliefs, that given this possibility we need to find our way to as much awareness and good mental health as we can afford ourselves. This gives us the greatest advantage, both personally, and as potential bearers of offspring who can further ‘goodness’ in the human race.

Our relationships to each other bear the greatest potential for changing who we become, as a species, than any other factor (in my way of thinking, which is of course not super scientific, but is well-meaning). I believe, for whatever reasons, that our tenderness, compassion, and kindness to each other, and especially to our newborns, is a tremendous influence on our genetic and behavioral evolution.

So, though I do not hold out a lot of hope for some immediate change, I do believe there is the possibility of influencing very long term changes in the behaviors that can potentiate the human race as pro-social survivors. We may be able to influence how many of us are born and nurtured, cherished really, into being capable of cooperation, caring, tenderness, altruism, and compassion.

I think I may have ‘said’ too much here. I cannot really substantiate any of this. It is my version of hope.

Did you know that a person can murder without ever touching that body?! Yep.It is possible.Mr Sociopath that doesn’t see the need to change and who has read so many books that your brains are fried…Can you tell me how that’s possible?!!

Really,it’s very simple.Wear that person to a frazzle.Show no kindness.Show no thoughtfulness.Play mindgames until the other person truly thinks they’ve lost their mind between sleep deprivation,not having the time to eat right or get the rest they need.Then deprive them of socialization and make them go stir crazy.If you wait long enough they might save you the trouble and take their life.If not,well,atleast you’ve got somebody to continue torturing and laughing at until they figure out how to find the door and walk through it!Oh shoot,they did!BAD DAY!

“It is you who let us manipulate you.”

LoL what a classic way to deflect responsibility. Thank you, Donna, for this segment… Talk about seeing the same pattern of ridiculously recognizable arrogance and smugness whipped right out of my past. It feels empowering to be able to ward that type off.


After years of suffering I established NO CONTACT whatsoever. It feels like the power has switch from the predator to the victim. So far it’s been 2 months. I get phonecalls – ‘private caller’ and also ‘out of area’ which I suspect is him. I just don’t answer the calls. I ‘unfriended’ him on Facebook and don’t post anything on there. I don’t contact any mutual acquaintances. It feels like he’s desperately trying to find out what I am doing. There was an ‘out of the area’ call at 1:30 am and another at 2.50 am today when I was in bed. Those calls didn’t irritate me because I had a good idea who it was. It feels like empowerment has replaced depression. I might have lost a lot of money, been bullied and manipulated mercilessly and had my heart broken, but I’m starting to live well. It seems like NO CONTACT is the only way to stop the abuse and to feel any kind of empowerment and control of our own lives.


I see psychopaths as adult bullies and I believe their numbers are sadly growing due to our current society’s changing value system. My 5 children left home as beautiful young adults in every way and I was proud to release them into this world. However, due to their father’s inherited genes and society’s worshipping the mighty dollar and what it can buy, in their adulthood, they all became psychotic.It wasn’t until 2011 that I was finally told to go NC with them by Mary Ellen O’Toole and my attorney after my children finally said they would all “commit” me! Good luck with rehabilitation in today’s morally depraved society!


Although some of the behaviors that could signal character disorder can be seen in children and teens, their behavior does not always raise the red flag. Often, as parents, we try to cope with a specific transgression, and attempt to impart morality in their decision making.

For myself, looking at my son’s “whole picture” did not come to pass with the mental health professionals we worked with. Instead they focused on remedying one off-the-wall behavior after the other.

I think my concept was that maturity would ultimately kick in. I’d laid what I thought was a moral foundation, and saw pieces of it peeking through from time to time, giving me hope.

But character disorder does not get ascribed to a child until they’re at least 18, and even at that time, they are not fully “out there.” For many, young adulthood, early to mid twenties, is when indications that moral choices are not part of their decision making process becomes clear. Their independence, or lack thereof, enables them to more fully display the depth or shallowness of their love and character. Up ’til then, their needs sometimes define their behaviors and they get along simply because of expedience.

It became evident to me that whatever I’d viewed as love and respect from my son had only emanated from his need for my roof over his head. When he discovered how wealthy his father was, my love for him became irrelevant to him. I realized that when he said, “Now that I’m independent, what do I need you for?” It was obvious that love simply did not exist in my child.



Wow, Joyce. To hear that coming from your son must have been a heartbreaking moment. To know that a son could be so emotionally shallow is bringing tears to my eyes while my whole being grieves for you about this.
I don’t know you but I’m so sorry that your son would say such a thing.

I’m thankful to say that my own son (21 years old this year) tells me he loves me everyday.

Our children are our true treasure and I’m saddened to know you’ve lost your son to his cold
hearted view of life.

Back years ago, when we were in high school, we had some
pithy sayings that helped us cope with the strangeness of life.

One of these sayings is, “There’s two kinds of people: one uses things and loves people and the other uses people and loves things”

That’s high school wisdom come full circle on yet another day of our lives as they play out.

You know what? As my son says, “Forget haters!”

We can be happy not because of them but fully in spite of them!!


“I don’t understand why you put criminals, killers and lunatics as an example of a sociopath and psychopath as most of us are intelligent enough not to ruin our own lives by 1st exposing ourselves and 2nd engaging in a criminal activity. Most of those criminals have far worse diagnosis than sociopathy and psychopathy to go along with these.

And lastly, why should we change? I always looked down on people my age, and as a result I used to read 5 books a week from when I was 10. I still read a lot and am working on improving myself as well as my ’abilities’ as I admit I have no respect for today’s society in which you’re judged as a freak as soon as anyone realizes you’re too intelligent to watch ’Big brother’ like the rest of the ’normal’ crowd.”

Again,,,,,he/ they are all that and a bag of chips in his mind!! Really? His letter is poorly written, he read 5 books a week when he was 10 but doesn’t say what the books were, LOL!! He also doesn’t say if he has ever read another book since!!! So I wonder what he still reads a lot” of? My guess is that he is single and living in SOMEone’s basement….probably his mother’s, is addicted to internet porn, alcohol and a host of other things.

“Most of those criminals have far worse diagnosis than sociopathy and psychopathy to go along with these.”

Well Einstein, there IS no “far worse diagnosis”. A socio/ psychopath has at least excelled in this one area!
So, imagine a world where there are no more people who are unaware of these losers! Then what?? They can’t survive without people who are unaware! Can’t obtain any of these “otherwise unattainable goals”! That’s what separates the men form the sociopathic/ psychopathic boys Einstein, the ability to set and achieve goals while treating those around you with honesty, consideration and respect. That is the desired outcome of most parents for their children. When you are only able to achieve your “”goals”” by using and abusing others… are like a toddler who is still dependent on their mommy to feed, nurture and change them. Which by the way,,,,,my Spathtardx apparently never even learned to wipe correctly as evidenced by the poo marks he left on my sheets. I’m assuming that is why he still lives with mommy at the age of 48…..God only knows what goes on behind THOSE closed doors!


dorothy2, thanks for your post… hilarious….the last sentence had me rolling on the floor…cheers!


I was married to PooPoo man’s brother.

Thanks Hinahina!

As my son left for school everyday, when he was growing up, I told him I loved him. As we hung up from every phone call, I told him I loved him. I ended every email and every text with love.

I was always concerned that if anything happened to me, the last words my son would hear from me would be my love for him.

Researching and writing my book saved my life. It enabled me to get perspective.

Your saying is great, never heard it before. It’s now etched in my memory. How true!



JM_Short……..I can’t imagine how painfully heart breaking it must be as a mother in your situation. it’s something I can only imagine as best I can as someone who doesn’t have children but even the attempt to imagine makes me feel deeply sad.


Givers are dependent on themselves to attain satisfaction and contentment in their lives. Takers are just dependent on others period. Needy, greedy toddlers.
Please let me be witness to Spathtard’s life of depravity when Spathmama in no longer there to clean for him, cook for him and change his nappies…….PLEASE??


Ok, in truth, he used a word that begins with f but I cleaned it up for popular consumption…


He’s almost 34 and he’s been gone for about 6 years. After 2 years of continual grieving, I decided to write the book. It took about 4 years to complete.

In the beginning, I begged and pleaded for him to accompany me to family therapy. I would have done anything to attempt to work things out with him. He turned a deaf ear, and blocked off my phone and my email.

I have no faith that he’ll improve, although, one day he may simply decide he wants his mother in his life, and expect me to be overjoyed. Knowing what I now know of having relationships with morally disordered people, I can see nothing but continued heartache and risk in that connection. He is physically and emotionally abusive.

So while he may think his absence is entirely his choice, one day he may recognize that it’s simply not so. But that’s the only change that could happen between us…… unless he’s willing to seek help through family therapy, and I seriously doubt that will ever happen.



Dear Joyce,
My heart aches for you, understanding your great sorrow. I hate to say it but I truly hope your son never does come around. As you hinted, it would likely cause only more pain. Just think of him as dead; that’s what I’ve had to do with my 5 children and it has helped put them out of my mind.


Dearest Joyce,

If your son is truly a spath, the only way he’ll seek you out again is to use you, when he’s exhausted other sources. He won’t come to his senses if you help him, he’ll only think you are stupid. The best thing you can do for him is show him you are not stupid. He’s an adult, 34 years old and supposed to take care of himself. He needs to face the consequences of his actions.


I went No Contact with my husband 15 monthes ago.Under normal circumstances,I would never do such a thing.But when a person KNOWS how they should treat their wife and children,but DELIBERATELY CHOOSES TO DO THINGS THEIR WAY,WHICH EQUATES WITH ABUSE,you have to take action!I only wish I’d taken action earlier!

My husband ruled us with “an iron sceptor”.He had so much control,that having NO CONTROL must be very difficult for him.He calls my 77 yr old father multiple times a day,to try to get information out of him,but he won’t give it to him.


Well done blossom4th. I went NO CONTACT for 3 months last year, then he called me ‘needing some paperwork’ from me. I regretted it as he starting his control again, using me for sex, money, food. He became more and more arrogant until he used me only when it was convenient for him. Also I believe his lies as he’s such a good actor, then I feel stupid after I think about what he’s said. Now I’ve done 2 months NO CONTACT and will stick to it. That’s great that your father doesn’t give any information about you. I’m sure you agree that after all the abuse, you finally feel in control and know that he is the one who is frustrated not knowing what is happening with you. I didn’t know what a sociopath was until 6 months after he left me after 6 years together. It was an eye opener. I was so confused as to why he seemed so cold and put me down after love bombing me until I found out about lying, manipulative users. He needs to stop bothering your father. Maybe he could change his number or can see the number on the phone screen. I only answer numbers I recognise. I’m glad I found this site.


woops I accidentally hit report, don’t think it sent anything though.


Yeah the love bombing then total 180 messes with you, cause by then your already in love and think the person is great, and it makes you believe you did something wrong, then they start with threats to end the relationship to keep you scared. Once I moved in with mine and she became pregnant I honestly don’t remember one time that she complimented me or said anything uplifting, it was always negative and criticism and downright nasty at times, being called pathetic and a loser after the person was so nice and fun to be around.

I may have to get a councilor im having real problems getting over this although its only been 3 months, I still at times think maybe I did something to cause this because she always blamed me for everything and would convince me it was my fault, when you hear the lie so much it tends to become truth to you.



I’ve considered counselling but didn’t have the confidence that I would be able to find one who really truly understood what we have to go through. I’m glad I found Donna’s site. It’s up to you what you do about it, but just remember this, you did nothing wrong. You did everything right. I spent 7 years believing my ex, trying my best to please him, but it’s futile. Sociopaths just take all they can and manipulate the victim until we think it’s our fault. It isn’t. He was always ‘ill’ but in some vague way. He’s 9 years younger than me but he would spend all day sitting at the computer or lying down watching tv, whilst I did all the work and paid for everything. I would ask how he felt, but he never, ever asked me how I was. He accused me of awful things I would never do, not realising it was him who was doing the bad things and shifting the blame. Don’t believe her lies. If I still had contact with mine, I would believe him until later after I’d thought about it. Keep on this site for support through your suffering, get all your worries off your chest and realise you are a good person and didn’t deserve such bad treatment.



” but he would spend all day sitting at the computer or lying down watching tv, whilst I did all the work and paid for everything.”

See that angers me, I rarely watched TV, I didn’t even pay for cable anymore, sometimes I would get on puter to play a game for an hour or just blog, but I did most the house chores and ran her company, while carting my kids around too, and was constantly told I don’t have any responsibilities, I don’t do enough, ive got it made living in her house ect ect…granted she did pay for more than me however she always made twice as much too which is one of the reasons I did most of the house work to kinda help make up for that.

Not one time was I ever thanked or anything for what I did to help market that business or the fact I worked for months without getting any complaints (which trust me in that line of work is VERY hard to do, customers are very picky) I guess its time to close this chapter and start writing my own.



There’s no ‘reply’ to click on after your latest comment so I hope you read this.

It doesn’t matter how much effort or money you put into the relationship, if you’re dealing with a sociopath it will never be acknowledged. They don’t have the capacity to step into someone else’s shoes. It doesn’t matter who earns the money or most money, it should be teamwork. Don’t beat yourself up. You did your best and if you’d been with an empath like we are, you would expect cooperation and acknowledgement of your efforts. Your case is complicated by having children and I don’t know how to deal with that. You would have to have minimum contact because of the children. But don’t give any information about how your life is going now. Look at me – I’ve been separated more than 2 years – I only discovered what sociopaths and narcissists are a year ago and I’m advising someone else! They never thank you – sincerely anyway. I sacrificed family, finances, time, friends to put him first then when his supply – money – was finishing he went off in search of the next vicitim. When she wasn’t as stupid as me and only handed over 1,000, he left her………..So it goes on. They aren’t normal people. Don’t expect anything from them except trouble. Run as far away as you can from sociopaths.


I know Kathleen, you get nothing in return out of them except a false dream, a fantasy that you try and make come true but it never happens. And yeah when they do actually thank you or apologize its not believable you can kinda tell there is no sincerity in it.

Yes I expected cooperation and acknowledgement but she thought that meant I wanted my ass kissed and it was not what I wanted, I just wanted to know that I was appreciated is all, I got to the point where I didn’t even want that anymore as I told her the least she could do is not come home and tell me how I did nothing if she wasn’t going to ever thank or appreciate.

I don’t know how I stayed so damn long attempting to believe her lies knowing that chances were I was getting played/used/abused. I have never felt so stupid and betrayed in all my life. What I feel now is way worse than that year I spent in prison when I was 20 years old. She helped me out of a dark hole only to put me in one even deeper and darker. I can only hope this doesn’t effect me in possible future relationships, as I want to have a partner for life, but I don’t want to be fearful and nitpicking at every little thing thinking im getting used again.


With experience and all the suffering we went through at the hands of sociopaths it is so hard to trust anyone. I don’t feel the need for a relationship right now, but I never say never. I think it’s fine to go out on dates, but if there is someone you become interested in, just take it slowly before getting too close. I should have trusted my instincts instead of giving him the benefit of the doubt in the beginning. By the time they’ve hooked you, it’s too late as you’re attached emotionally. Love is blind. You find yourself going along with their awful behaviour, even ignoring your instincts. I’d say if any red flags appear trust what your instinct tells you.


Yeah I agree Kathleen, take it slow, and if red flags start popping up take off, cause once your in love you will do whatever to keep it and ignore the bad behavior.

Im not saying I will jump into a relationship right now, I don’t think I could, and it wouldn’t be fair to her (whoever her may be) but I would like one in the future, provided its not with someone with a mental illness.

I feel like I just spent the last 10 years crawling through desert sand seeing a mirage of a beautiful woman who loved me waiting on me to reach her, only for her to disappear when I got there and repeat it the next day.


I’ve wondered few times, as I read articles and comments about sociopathy and psychopathy, whether the old Fairy Tales that we still recognize (even though they get severely watered down or “bowdlerized” by Disney and other re-tellers) perhaps served a larger function than mere entertainment for children? I think that the old Fairy Tales, particularly in their original forms, were primers for teaching children some valuable life-lessons, including how to see beyond the surface, and discern true goodness or real badness (genuinely evil intentions) in others.

Or, in other words, how to spot psychopaths.

So many Fairy Tales have the Ancient Crone or the Old Man whom the hero/heroine encounters and treats kindly, and the dusty, wrinkled, ragged old party turns out to be a Good Fairy in disguise who gives the hero/ine valuable advice, a secret word or a magic talisman that is crucial to achieving their quest.

And in a lot of Fairy Tales, the evil villain will wear a disguise too; Snow White’s stepmother, the Evil but beautiful Queen, disguises herself as an old woman in order to kill SW. The hungry Wolf disguises himself as Red Riding Hood’s grandmother, in order to get RR to come close to him so he could seize her and eat her.

Fairy tales and folk tales do not shy away from depicting parents who are hateful, selfish, lazy, greedy, and actively malicious towards one of their own children, or siblings who are jealous of and violent toward their own brother or sister, who turns out to be the hero or heroine.

I came across a scholarly article on folk and fairy tales, that mentioned that in a lot of the original versions of classic Fairy Tales, its the bio-mother, not the “step-mother” who is evil and trying to destroy her own child. But story-tellers like Anderson and the Brothers Grimm and others understood that *that* concept might cut too close to the bone to be entertaining, and so tended to switch the original unmotherly bio-mom for an “evil step-mother”. (I think it was in the original version of Hansel and Gretel that it was their own bio-mother who told the children’s bio-father to take H&G out into the woods and kill them, but he couldn’t do it, so he just “lost” them instead.)

Nowdays, Fairy Tales are considered too violent and too politically incorrect to share with children, but I think the sheer endurance of fairy tales over the centuries (even over the millinnea; some European fairy tales are based on early Greek and middle-eastern mythologies) says something about the messages they carry: they must be valuable messages even if they are “politically incorrect.” And one of those messages is that evil people do exist, and you need to be able to tell who they are by their actions, not by their beautiful or handsome or appealing exterior. And sometimes, the evil person trying to harm you or use you is your own parent or sibling.


Babs94540 – hey, I’d never considered that! It could be true. I remember all the fairy tales with lots of ‘wolves in sheeps’ clothing’ and vice versa. Maybe we should concentrate on them more nowadays. We should read them to our children and, more importantly, discuss them afterwards relating them to the modern day equivalent.


Dave, work on yourself first so you won’t need another persobn to “comlete” you.


I do believe the most difficult part of living/loving a psychopath is accepting the evil in the souls of these individuals. Despite what this person says about resenting the fact that psychopaths are compared to the worst of the worst we lock up like Ted Bundy and Charles Manson. I have a news flash for him. “White collar” crime is rampant in our culture. They are just smart enough to fly under the radar under most law enforcement agencies. My former husband did just this. I found out over a year after he moved out what financial deeds he had been involved with and failed to share with me. Smarter just means they are unlikely to be caught. Robert Hare in his book “Without Conscience” noted that the ones he interview in prison were the “not so bright” psychopaths.


Hope, I agree with you. These “white collar” monsters stay just one step inside the law, or at least making sure they never have to pay any consequences for their actions. A short time after my ex discarded me, a friend alerted me to articles in the local press about some harassment and other issues that had been going on for some time (for at least several years of our relationship), up to and including him causing others to lose their jobs. He left that job as part of a “deal” to avoid consequences, but several women’s careers and financial lives were sidetracked as a direct result of his twisted (and illegal) behavior. They eventually did get compensated, at the taxpayer’s expense with no consequence to him. I now suspect that he might have done the same thing at previous jobs but it was kept quieter. I was able to contact and speak to these women, since I had worked at the same place previously (where I had met him) and learned a lot more about his “antics”. I am disgusted and sickened that the system continues to allow these monsters to escape without consequences because it is cheaper to settle than to prosecute. Those women received compensation for their harm, however, it has taken me another couple of years to disentangle myself with him financially and I have lost pretty much everything. But now I have my freedom.


Hope – I am so encouraged by your and HanaleiMoon’s healing and revelations. I feel like we are soul sisters as our marriages and situations sound so similar. Towards the end I didn’t even want ANYONE new that I met to know I was married to him. The last few years I despised him but hung in thinking he may make some money to put towards the financial craziness he put us in. Now at this point in my life – I have never had less materialistically but I am beyond abundant in my contentment and sense of self, now that he has been out of my life almost 2 years. This site has made sense of my questions and helped me bypass the self blame game. I have a loving and forgiving set of friends and family although many have no idea of what my life with the Lunatic involved – nor would I even bother to explain. They just knew they didn’t like him – and that is putting it mildly! Thank you for your insight, strength and sharing. It has fast tracked my healing and I am blessed to say in my new life that I am one incredibly happy gal.


The most important steps any of us can take is to become aware of the red flags and pay attention to the “actions” of this other person. Many times when I reflect back to my disastrous marriage of 17 years to a psychopath, I remember all of the behaviors I “overlooked.” I chose to over look these horrible deeds done by my ex husband. Of course, they are selling your the goods on this hard and fast. Bottom line these individuals lie to us ALL OF THE TIME. Ignore the make up sex and focus on the realty. Go by the Rule of threes: “one lie, one broken promise – a misunderstanding. Two may involve a serious mistake. THREE lies you are dealing with a liar, and deceit is the linchpin of conscienceless behavior. Do NOT give your time, money or affection to a three timer.” The Sociopath Next Door – Martha Stout.


Hope, I too overlooked so much and looking back can pinpoint so many red flag moments where I should have walked. I now realize how effectively he used cognative dissonance to keep me hooked. At that time, I’d never even heard of the term. Much, much later I found journal entries I had made on my ipad and forgotten about, and the pain and confusion in my writing broke my heart – but what is chilling is that those entries were completely forgotten about because his next move was always something wonderful and sweet. My therapist saved my sanity when she told me “you didn’t know what he was doing because he didn’t want you to know, and he was that good”.


I would also suggest reading Sandra L Brown’s book “Women Who Love Psychopaths”….good for men to read also! This book sits next to my bible. It is my “bible” for understanding not only how I was “conned” for so many years, but it explains me to me. This is the recovery part of living with a disordered person. Answering the question “why” did I allow this to happen to me? Most of the time they are that GOOD and are the target from the very beginning. Slick con men. Our “role” is the “ying” to their “yang”. This creates the thunderous turmoil in your life that is overlooked because of your unique traits. I highly recommend this book to anyone that wants to become the “dragon slayer” of psychopaths and heal their soul. I am proud to proclaim I AM the dragon slayer!


Yes! This is the first book I found and my copy is well worn, highlighted and full of notes and post-it’s top, bottom, and side. The first year I carried it everywhere with me, and still now, it sits in the top drawer close at hand. There is no emphasizing how essential this book is to understanding and healing. I love the image of being a dragon slayer!


The problem with waiting for the proven lies to start coming out is, most are well into the relationship by the time this happens. The proven lie didn’t come out until the Big Fat One. Caught him with the girlfriend he kept telling me he didn’t want. My rule is..cancel on me once or change the times around without a good reason and my radar is up. Do it again with or without a good reason. Red Flag! Try it again…you’re done. Stand me up once…he better be in the hospital unconscious.


**** **** was confronted by **** for his Sociopath behavior. He refused to be rebuked for his 10 year affair. Rather than being confronted, he ran away. **** **** refused to be confronted and ran away. What I read about Sociopaths, they refuse to take responsibility for their actions. **** **** does not want to change. Its good that he has been removed as **** Church in New York City. I hope he stays away.

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