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By | March 14, 2012 341 Comments

A sociopath claims, ‘We are the uniquely gifted’

Editor’s note: A reader who identified himself as a sociopath recently posted this comment on the Lovefraud Blog, and sent it to me in an email. I am posting this piece because it provides a good description of how sociopaths view themselves, and explains why they are quite comfortable taking advantage of the rest of us. Be sure to read the question I asked him, and his response, at the end.

We are uniquely gifted

“Sociopath” is a misleading word: it implies a disorder, something wrong and unnatural with the person, and this couldn’t be further from the truth. We, the people you refer to as sociopaths, have nothing wrong with us. We are instead, the uniquely gifted. Our gifts have been mischaracterized and maligned and it’s time someone set the record straight.

What the experts call superficial charm, I call having a natural ability to win friends and influence people. What experts call manipulative and conning, I call an affinity for persuasion based upon an innate ability to pinpoint others personality strengths and weaknesses. What the experts decry as a lack of compassion, I call pragmatism and clarity. What experts call a “problem with authority”, I call embracing personal power and celebrating the independent spirit. What experts call “delusions of grandeur”, I call self confidence and optimism. What experts call “shallow emotional affect,” I call freedom from the tyranny of irrational emotions. And finally, while the experts say that guiltlessness is a disorder (because it is the lack of guilt that separates the sociopath, psychopath and Machiavellian from the general population), I say it is the enhanced ability to do the things that build civilizations and keep societies going, the very things that the guilt afflicted shy away from. It is no coincidence that our lack of guilt so often comes with abnormally high intelligence and charisma.

We are born to lead and many of our traits support this conclusion. We are born knowing this and the rest of you know it when you see us. It is these very traits that make us necessary for the survival and success of the human species, especially since the dawn of civilization. It’s why you elect us, follow us, and often give your very lives by our command. Though we are found disproportionally in prisons we are found with even greater frequency in your governments, your corporations, your military. Who else but someone devoid of conscience could order thousands of soldiers to die, regardless of how noble the cause? Who can fire hundreds of workers to save a company from bankruptcy and then sleep peacefully that night? Who can so elegantly tell the lies that must be told, to protect the very people to whom the lies are told? It takes one of us to make those calls, the calls that the rest of humanity cannot make.

And yet a distressing number of us become the very thing you fear us all to be; criminals and abusers. This creates a cycle of ignorance, as all the “sociopaths” identified by the news are killers or wife-beaters, and so we identify this collection of gifts as evil, as pathological, and thus those of us in our proper roles feel the need to disguise ourselves for fear of being labeled evil. A similar cycle of ignorance has kept homosexuals oppressed for decades; homosexuality has been associated with child molesters and perverts, drug use and disease, and it was called “evil” for this.

We are not evil; you simply do not recognize the “good” ones as the same phenomena. Google “sociopath” and all you find are ways to recover from contact with a sociopath, information advising you to run from relationships with sociopaths, and misinformation that will claim that “sociopaths cannot feel love” or that we “cannot think of others as human beings” or that we are “parasitic”.

It is very distressing to discover, for a child who has always known that he was different, that he is a monster… that he is doomed to live a loveless life and become a criminal, that he will never be able to hold a job or raise a family. Indeed, one must wonder how often do one of us accepts the mischaracterization of our abilities and instincts as things to be repressed and rejected due to ignorance? How often do the young among our frequently demonized minority discover what he is, buys into the paranoid misinformation and simply does what he is expected to do, withholding from society the very qualities it needs and secretly wants to maintain itself and imprisoning himself in a state of confusion and needless pain as a result?

What is the so called sociopath? A sociopath is one of your potential leaders, labeled by the fearful and unreasoning masses as something sick and evil. “Sociopath” is a negative label which only serves to further alienate people who simply need to be allowed to embrace their gifts. Getting rid of this misleading term should be the first step towards fully understanding who we are and the role we play in this world. We are not the embodiment of a pathology. On the contrary; we are instead the uniquely gifted.

Editor’s note: I sent the author this question: “How do you justify lying and deception?” His reply:

Justify? Did you forget the “no guilt, no remorse” part already? We have no need to justify the lying, as we don’t see anything inherently wrong with it. Deception is merely a means to an end. Nor is it necessarily malevolent. We simply act in our own self-interest. We know what we want and the easiest way to get it. It’s a gift.


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dlm

Disgusting. But very informative. So they rub there chest and think being deceptive and getting over on people is a GIFT. Great I’ll be under the bed for awhile before I decide to trust again.

dlm

This is no different then a heroin dealer that destroys people and has no remorse..oh and most people in mental institutions also think of themselves as NORMAL..

sistersister

I have to thank this person for so eloquently laying forth the credo of the sociopath. I won’t, however, be doing so in person.

The creepy part of this, for me, is indeed how normal some of these traits are; I have always maintained here that this is the reason we “fall for it.” That’s precisely why sociopaths are so dangerous. Wasn’t it just yesterday that a man’s chivalry was suddenly interpreted for me, on this very blog, as “love bombing” and therefore a “red flag”? In hindsight, it was very much a red flag; but when you’re there, experiencing it in real time, it’s just a nice guy who wants to paint your living room for you.

Sure, who hasn’t been deceptive in the service of something good? I know I have. No details here, but I once saved someone’s life with a simple lie, when I was young and innocent.

So it’s that second paragraph about “what experts call” manipulative or what-have-you, he calls leadership, that gets me. There is indeed a very fine line between Winston Churchill and Warren Jeffs, yes? But a very important one.

If this were just a site to expose a-holes, it would have lasted a week and been boring as hell. This is instead a place where people try to make sense of that very paradox described here — we try to find that fine line, and it isn’t easy sometimes. Sure, you can call that “leadership” or “charm,” but examine the wreckage. Anyone claiming this is for the good of humanity is clearly deluded.

This post further raises a big, elephant-in-the-room question when it touches on sending “thousands of soldiers to die, regardless of how noble the cause.” And how society secretly desires this. All too true, but hardly a good thing. Don’t we aspire to something better than that? Or do we so cynical that we really believe the propaganda of, say, our current election cycle, where the race to the bottom continues?

Can America be kept “No Contact” from its own leaders? Its own dark desires?

If you doubt what this person says about sociopaths in positions of power, I recommend a little homework reading:

http://pathwhisperer.wordpress.com/2010/08/10/search-are-bankers%C2%A0sociopathic/

http://www.aquariuspapers.com/astrology/2011/11/study-finds-corporate-psychopaths-and-sociopaths-run-the-banking-industry.html

And this one is really good, on the Swiss banks, which are no longer run by the Swiss. They’re run by an international organized crime ring and maintain an openly spathic workplace. Not to mention, slush funds to bankroll assassinations. Their favorite way to control their own kind is to know their sexual perversions and threaten to expose them when they don’t do as they’re told:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a9b_1307471895

A book called “The Holocaust Industry” outlines the ’90s assault on the Swiss banks pretty well. They are now clean of allegations of holding “Nazi loot” but dirty dealers in everything else. Amazing — they can even exploit compassion for Holocaust victims to further the same kind of spathic cause that victimized them.

“Economic hitmen” are, simply, spaths for hire. CEOs have climbed the corporate spath-ladder to get where they are. And who are our presidents and congressmen, really? Run through Richard Nixon’s late-night rant to David Frost in “Frost/Nixon” if you need a refresher.

C’mon, admit you love it, America. You chose it. By focus group, even. I thank this person for raising that “red flag” for us. . . . But no, I’m not having dinner with you.

Ox Drover

I saw this when he/she posted it, and read the part down to “uniquely gifted” and quit reading and moved on….I read the entire thing this time.

This particular person is “uniquely gifted” with intelligence. That is nothing that he/she/it did to gain this, but a gift of DNA from one or two parents who were also gifted with high intelligence.

The vocabulary of this person is also quite high, so I would think the person had a pretty good education and probably came from a privileged background, though it is possible that the person self educated from a middle class or lower back ground. Again, though, without the high intelligence given by the DNA they inherited, that would not have been possible.

“High functioning” socio/psycho-paths do “dwell” iin the top corner offices of our CEOs, military, politicitcal and business leaders. That is definitely true. It is also true that people with a normal amount of empathy might have some problems doing the things that would be required in jobs done by these highly functioning psychopaths.

All that said, that doesn’t mean that having a relationship with a psychopath is going to benefit the individual in any way, shape, or form.

The high level of narcissism exhibited by the psychopathic poster reminds me very much of the one who comes here from time to time who calls himself “Michael.”

The entire blog/e mail, whatever you want to call it, doesn’t give me any information that I didn’t have before…only that this person is very narcissistic and self aggrandized beyond belief, but I already knew that from reading Dr. Hare’s works.

Truthspeak

Thanks for this, Donna – it’s a glaring, steaming, stinking reminder of why there should be a remote South Pacific Island where all identified spaths can be safely corralled. Give them seeds, a few livestock animals, and let them sort it out amongst themselves.

Leaders? Really? Affinity? Really? Well, this survivor has an “affinity” for calling a spade what it is, and the original poster has gotten the attention that it craves by baiting, luring, and stirring up the proverbial poo.

I have no use for the original poster – he/she/it is (and, always will be) a predator, and that’s the bottom line.

clair

When I read that post, I thought to myself “yup, that is how the SP thinks”: self delusion, entitlement, evil and they live among us. To be foretold is to be forewarned. If we have any inkling that we’ve encountered one of these, steer clear and avoid.

donna dixon

If there had been misspelled words in this post I would have sworn it was my ex that wrote it! It just drips with all the authority and justification that pumps his pompous ego.

I would like to ask the poster of this email “do they feel ANY kind of connection to a spouse or their own children since they are incapable of the true meaning of LOVE”?

Back_from_the_edge

Are we to applaud and recognize the traits, as listed in the link below, as ‘normalcy’? Where is the sense of virtue and appreciation for others? There is none. While that may be an acceptable ‘trait’ to some, to others, such as myself, it is not. Not and be more than an user of life to a means. It must be a very sad thing to journey through this life and have no feeling, no emotion nor remorse and or joy nor sorrow. To be void of emotion. However, I believe, as I always have, that we all have choices in our lives as to how we shall be to others. The only difference between me and this poster (and I say this all the time) is that I HAVE CHOSEN TO LIVE MY SORROW DIFFERENTLY. I HAVE CHOSEN TO CREATE GOOD FROM THE BAD AND NOT PERPETUATE IT BY INTENTIONALLY HARMING OTHERS. There is no two way street empathy with these kinds of individuals because they are not built that way. IF I CAN CHOSE DIFFERENT, after having grown up with ppaths about me, I do believe and always will believe that it is a choice what we do with our lives and that we all are accountable for the things we do. Sooner or later, we are all accountable.

Thank you for sharing this. It is actually quite sad, if you think about it but don’t let yourself linger there too long – it becomes a time bomb as well, as everything seems to be with them. Did my ‘x’ write that email???

Empathy? Yes, I have immense empathy for people who are labeled ‘psychopathic’; just immense, if I did not, I would not have found myself in my fifth year of post traumatic stress nor major depressive disorder because of the experience! I can ‘understand’ all I want to but what about THEIR ‘understanding’? They have none. It shows in their actions and words. We are not to be chastised for giving that ‘understanding’ and then ‘punished’ for it as well? And that is the cycle of the personality itself. YES: I have compassion and I ask: “Where has been mine?” If you call having your life threatened numerous times, ‘compassion’, then I suppose I would rather just be alone. I am not giving up the goodness that exists in this life for the sake of an evil intention.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_Psychopathy_Checklist
(what would you label them if they have ALL the traits and then some that weren’t even listed?)

survivor3

Sociopath is labeled as a disorder because that is exactly what it is, sir. There is something wrong and unnatural about you despite your pathetic attempts to justify your behavior, just as all sociopaths do. How do you call destroying people’s lives with your deception, lies, and manipulation a gift? In the same way Hitler did, I suppose. And to be characterized as Hitler-esque and be proud of that is precisely what makes you so disgusting and dangerous.

I would hardly call manipulating people with the facade of a person you create in order to worm your way into someone’s life a natural ability to win friends and influence people. In the end, you have no characteristics whatsoever that anyone would look for in a true friend. It’s all part of the game you play to convince people that you’re something that you’re not, that you have things in common with people that you don’t, that you have the same morals when you have none.

Being a caring person is not a weakness, for your information. The fact of the matter is that you hate yourself and your inability to feel what all the rest of us are capable of feeling. To you love is an irrational emotion. Pain is an irrational emotion. Your lack of guilt and remorse is the most concerning facet of your illness, for what you don’t seem to be able to comprehend is that there are people equally as intelligent and far more intelligent than you’ll ever dream of being that feel love, pain, guilt, and remorse. And those are the very people that have made a positive difference in this world that we live in, not mentally ill people such as yourself.

You weren’t born to lead. You were born innocent and were corrupted due to whatever environment you grew up in. You were corrupted by the people that raised you. You’ve learned from them to lift people up with false promises and control and then pull the rug out from under their lives once you get them where you want them.

Unlife you, I can survive just fine without lying to people. I can survive without punching and choking people. Those of us without the misfortune of living with the mental disease that you seem so proud of will be just fine without you, thank you very much. We need people like you in our society like we all need huge, gaping holes in our heads.

To insinuate that people like you are needed in this world is insanity. As time has marched on and we’ve learned our lessons as people, as the human race, you have now been discovered and exposed. At the time, nobody knew what was wrong with Attila the Hun, Abdullah Khomeini, Idi Amin Dada, Pol Pot, Vlad Tepes, Hitler, Stalin, and Hirohito, just to name a few. Now we do. Now we are intelligent and educated enough to know how dangerous a sociopath has been proven to be.

So you can scream from the top of a mountain that you’re okay and there’s nothing to be afraid of. You’re not okay, and there’s much to be afraid of. We all see you for what you are now, and you’re just not going to get away with everything you’d like to as easily as you have before any longer. Technology and the ability to spread the word about people like you is your enemy. Deal with it.

So you just go on living your life with your head held high sleeping like a baby every night. The fact is you have no conscience. Your ability to feel anything meaningful is nonexistent. What you feel when you use and manipulate people is not happiness. It is not joy. You are inacapable of feeling those things, and I am. Therefore, I am more intelligent than you are. I am more evolved than you are. I don’t spend my days trying to figure out how to bring people down. I do the opposite. And that is what has enabled the human race to continue on, not your distorted rantings of this sickening reality you’ve created for yourself in order to convince yourself you should keep breathing every day.

You, sir, have no business whatsoever attempting to engage in a relationship with anyone. You are completely aware of this, but you do so anyway over and over and over and over. This is precisely why there is a hell. You turn the earth into hell while you’re here in order to prepare yourself for what will come for you in the end. Therefore, those of us not afflicted with your mental illness have no reason to feel anything other than pity for you. What is the point in hating someone that hates themselves more than anyone else possibly could? That is why you do everything that you do to others, is the lack of respect and regard that you have for yourself.

Sociopaths imprison themselves and live in a state of confusion because that is the result of this disease. Those of us not afflicted with your illness did not cause that to become your life. It is a natural result of the behavior you consciously choose to engage in, for everything that you do is orchestrated and intentional. There are no “mistakes” that you make.

I agree with you on only one point: And that is that we should get rid of the term “sociopath” and go back to what it truly has always been and will always be, a psychopath. What’s ridiculous is the way your disease continues to be sugar-coated. It’s un-PC to call you a psychopath, so let’s try sociopath. Oh, no, wait, how about borderline personality disorder? How about NO. You’re a psychopath, plain and simple. Accept that and live in a world alone or get help just like anyone else should that has something wrong with their brain.

Lying is not a survival tactic. I’m terribly sorry for whatever dysfunction you were exposed to as a child, but it’s not my problem or anyone else’s. Take your anger about that out on your parents, not everyone else you happen to come into contact with for the rest of your miserable life. They are the ones that created an environment that resulted in the likes of you. Who should you be angry with? Them, not people that you falsely convince to love you when you have never deserved that from anyone.

6wings

How arrogantly distorted. To play with other’s minds and hearts is pure evil no matter what the short term gain or so called “contribution” to society- ha!
I see very clearly why Jesus said to pray for your enemies after having dealt with the likes of a sociopath. Very warped with hearts of stone and I can only quote the Bible in Ezekiel 36:26 –
“I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.”
So sad and pathetic for them while hurtful and abusive to their prey. And their reward will be hell indeed if they do not awaken from there corrupted consciousness.
I believe their victims will eventually become stronger after healing from the trauma- thank God.

Ox Drover

Well, there are things GOOD that the sociopaths do…in Hitler’s Germany THE TRAINS RAN ON TIME….well, for a while, anyway.

In the book,”the 48 Laws of Power,” the author writes it almost as a “play book” for psychopaths in how to get what your goal is. Some of the advice, frankly, is pretty good advice, but when you read very far you get the idea that the author is a psychopath, like the one above.

Oh, BTW sister sister, it was NOT ONLY the Love bombing that was a reason to dump that jerk…it was ALL THE OTHER SIGNS and RED FLAGS, like his rudeness, his gas lighting, and his CRIMINAL HISTORY of 22 years in prison. Him just wanting to paint your living room was only a SMALL portion of the things I saw in him that were DANGEROUS red flags. It was, however, the BAIT he was holding out to you. But there is always a HOOK inside the bait.

donna dixon

Well put, Survivor3!!

silvermoon

Its a gift which will earn three squares and free housing (ie prison) and a lonely, loveless death. Not something I’d envy.

Sociopatholgy is unloveable. If you betray the people who trust you repeatedly, it has a cost. And the world is not big enough for that behavior to go on and on for anyone in it.

The more visible you are, the faster you will be identified and either removed from society or ignored.

Will we feel any remorse for this? Can we?

Only to the extent that we would pity a calf born with its legs turned backward that needed to be put down. Or any other animal with deformity which defined that it would not survive.

Sociopaths don’t survive well.

They all run down and out of options eventually.
The shame is that we have no better ways to set them aside earlier in life because it will always come to a bad end and leave in its wake victims who are materially and emotionally harmed.

But, these lives will run their courses.

I am reminded of the line from the Rock Opera Tommy from the song We;re not gonna take it-

“We’ll forget you better still”

clair

“do they feel ANY kind of connection to a spouse or their own children since they are incapable of the true meaning of LOVE”?

donna dixon,
I have contemplated this question. I think, at best, the connection which the SP or N has to their spouse or children is w/in the realm of toxic bonding. They view themselves as the King/Queen, so any good they may do for their spouse or children is done as a superior being administering to their minions, their subjects. Also, any positivity they bestow on their spouse or children may be motivated by their need to ‘look good’ to others. Outsiders may view our parents & spouses as wonderful & giving, but we know the truth & the SP or N never wants that mask to slip or illusion to be broken.

Edit: to SPs or Ns, other people are ‘things’, so they ‘love’ us just as they love their favorite chair, car or other things.

Ox Drover

Good points clair

clair

Thanks Ox Drover! 🙂

donna dixon

Clair ~ Your thoughts do make a great deal of sense ~ Since they aren’t capable of deep emotions what else can it be BUT a front for building their image? THANKS!

clair

Thanks donna dixon! 🙂

“a front for building their image”

You raise a very good point: Perhaps everything an SP does in relationship to another person is to reinforce the SP’s mask. Probably the worst thing we can do to an SP is to unmask them, which in turn, will cause them to unleash their narcissistic rage.

donna dixon

Clair,

I just got chills! When the mask fell I did experience that narcissistic rage and it was SCARY! Although never physically abused by him once you realize your entire relationship was a mask there is no telling what they are capable of.

LPMarie13

While first reading this post I thought, “Why is Donna giving this self-glorifying person a platform to pound his chest?” But after reading through it and observing the self-delusions this person buys into regarding “winning friends and influencing people” and genuine lack of responsibility for despicable conduct, I was glad she did post it. While this person may be enjoying some sort of material sucess and “career progression” from the general tone of the post (if it’s even real!), the claim that not all sociopaths are parasitic is bogus in my eyes. This one might not be leeching off of someone for a place to stay, money, etc, but likely bleeding others of emotional resources.

They truly seem to be beyond help of any kind, because, as this particular individual has admitted, they see their traits as a gift, that they are some how tragically unique. “They know the music, but not the words…” How many of us got that impression reading this person’s words?

What a sad existance, obsessed with ladder climbing and power at all costs. I thank God that I am at the opposite end of the spectrum, highly sensative as opposed to sociopathic. I used to consider my sensativity a liability, but it’s actually turned out to be more of a gift than I could have ever imagined.

slimone

Clair and All,

I think one of the primary reasons for a spaths manipulations is image management. This takes many forms: having a wife and family, ‘seeming’- at times- to admit a fault (though NEVER changing a behavior), crying on cue…..nearly everything they do is in some manner a manipulation of other’s ‘perception’ of them. They don’t want anyone seeing what they really are. Image management is a HUGE piece of their con.

It’s what frustrates lots of LF folks, especially when they first break out of their relationships and are stuck with the ‘fact’ that many people cannot see through the spaths image management, to the disturbed people they are. It can drive one crazy, trying to figure out how to ‘out’ them.

This guy, who thinks he’s so brilliant, outs himself- to us. Because we can SEE the falseness of what he says about himself, about psychopaths- it’s obvious how screwed up his thinking and attitudes are.

In a spathy culture like we live in he may just sound really smart to people who don’t know a thing about personality disorders.

sigh…

LPMarie13

Another thing I noticed about this character is how acute his or her arrogance is. That second paragraph contradicting everything “the experts” have to say about sociopathy is revealing. This person claims to know better than “the experts.” Such a smarty pants!

skylar

Yes, we are part of their image manipulation and they do see us as possessions. And yet, there is something more: they despise us. They project all of their own inadequacies on us.

This is why they scapegoat us. It’s a sad thing that they need us TO LOVE THEM, TO ADMIRE THEM, TO CARE ABOUT THEM, so badly and they know it, deep down inside. That’s why they call our love “a weakness”, it’s how they justify despising us. And yes, THEY DO JUSTIFY what they do. The liar in the post, just used different words to say, “because I can.”

His words were,

We know what we want and the easiest way to get it.

In other words, he can, because it’s easy.

Funny thing, I remember an incident where the spath wouldn’t tell me the course of action he was going to take. But I knew and got there ahead of him. He asked me, “how did you know which one I would choose?”
I looked at him, with a disdainful smile and said, “because it’s the easiest choice and you always pick whatever is easiest.”

He just stared at me. He hated being predictable but that’s all he will ever be. When you have a PD, it makes you PREDICTABLE. That’s why they call it a PD.

Thanks Mr. Uniquely Gifted, for proving once again how predictable and mundane the spaths are. Not so unique though.
😆

clair

LP Marie:
Agree. It was brave & brilliant of Donna to post this.
IMO, “SP” is synonymous with parasite, leech and vampire.

“This guy, who thinks he’s so brilliant, outs himself- to us. Because we can SEE the falseness of what he says about himself”
Definitely, Slimone!

The SP posted to brag about how great his SPathology is, however, due to his SPathic Blindspot, he has hoisted himself by his own petard. We have unmasked him & we can SEE the empty void that lies within him. Due to that SPathic Blindspot, SPs think they can con everyone. But in reality, many people do see the truth & do see the mask.

SPs con themselves into believing that no one knows the truth about them. Oh, we know the truth, but often we won’t tell the SP the truth because we know they can’t change & we’d prefer to skip experiencing their Narcissistic rage. Those who have confronted SPs or Ns know well about the resulting rage.

Truthspeak

LPMarie13,

Parasite, indeed! Because the spath is incapable of actually “living” with feelings, true emotions, and so forth, they are parasites – they must mirror what they believe to be appropriate responses and it almost always tells itself if we’re observant enough. The glib remarks that issue from the mouths of spaths are enough of a tell, but the rest of the patterns of their behaviors are almost 100% predictable. If we don’t respond to Plan A (pity), then it’s on to Plan B (lovebombing), and if that doesn’t work, it’s on to Plan C (divide & conquer), etc., and so forth.

The original poster’s arrogance has grown so large that he/she/it will certainly trip over it in the darkness of their own existence, soon enough – if the original poster is what they claim to be.

Woe betides the creature without remorse or empathy – empty, empty, empty existence full of parroting and mirroring, but never actually experiencing the actual joys and sorrows of LIVING.

clair

“Another thing I noticed about this character is how acute his or her arrogance is.”

Yes! The Ns and the SPs are arrogant. For me, arrogance is a ’tell’ that someone may be an N or SP. And, they think we don’t see the arrogance and entitlement! Ns/Sps don’t see their arrogance and entitlement and therefore, are unaware as to how they reveal themselves.

“And yet, there is something more: they despise us. They project all of their own inadequacies on us”.This is why they scapegoat us”And yes, THEY DO JUSTIFY what they do.”
Truth and self reflection are anathema to the N/SP. They cannot handle the truth because they can’t admit to themselves what they really are.

“for proving once again how predictable and mundane the spaths are.”
Oh yeah! It’s not hard to anticipate how an N/SP will react and that’s why I used to walk on egg shells. But, now that I know what I’m dealing with, no more egg shell walking for me. They, like their evil, are banal. Perhaps the most extraordinary thing about Ns/SPs is their complete lack of self awareness.

clair

“The glib remarks that issue from the mouths of spaths are enough of a tell, but the rest of the patterns of their behaviors are almost 100% predictable. If we don’t respond to Plan A (pity), then it’s on to Plan B (lovebombing), and if that doesn’t work, it’s on to Plan C (divide & conquer), etc., and so forth.”

love that, Truthspeak! And they think we don’t know, can’t see or can’t anticipate it! lol!

Ox Drover

WOW! Truthspeak,

I quote you

Woe betides the creature without remorse or empathy ”“ empty, empty, empty existence full of parroting and mirroring, but never actually experiencing the actual joys and sorrows of LIVING.

Again, WOW! I am absolutely in awe of the above statement, so TRUE and in such poetic words.

sistersister

That’s what I understood, Ox Drover. The love bombing only came into focus AFTER I knew all those other things. It was only true in retrospect. (Of course, if it had been really obvious love bombing, something ridiculously huge, it would have been a red flag right away.) Love bombing a few days before the realization was quite reasonably called generosity.

Similarly, decisiveness and toughmindedness, even the charm to make the sale, are pluses for leadership, but that doesn’t excuse using them for sociopathic ends.

We can all forgive ourselves for falling for the act at first, because the alternative is to be suspicious of all generosity, charm, and success in a person — all admirable traits. Sociopaths play all that in a different key, and I know very well that the difference is real and dangerous. (Apparently this guy doesn’t!) The difference may just be our gut feeling that this person isn’t right, despite all that charm and charisma . . . or waiting until the “red flags” really do kick in.

Generosity can be taken both ways. But gaslighting, in my opinion, is unmistakably insulting. What else could it be but a ploy? I can’t imagine it being on that list of powerful traits of leaders or lovers at all. Discovering the gaslighting changed my hindsight considerably. Suddenly — very suddenly — his generosity became love bombing, his quality as a good listener became a ploy, and all his reasonable-sounding stories became lies.

That’s the most painful part, if a person has invested a lot. All of a sudden, the blue sky was red all along.

sistersister

So true, Clair. They don’t see that we see. It’s why I always observe that I seem to get the trainees, not the pros. Maybe there are no true pros, or they are rare.

clair

sistersister,
“the trainees”! LOL!!

Ox Drover

Sister, that is why I have changed the way I interact with new people and what I find out about their past or present life. We have to “play the odds” like in Las Vegas, and if we don’t play the odds, the HOUSE ALWAYS WINS

Number one: is I eliminate ALL people from my “circle of intimacy” who have a significant criminal background.

Yes, there are convicts that change, but the truth is that the MAJORITY DO NOT, so no significant intimacy with a CONVICT, the odds are against it. Especially long term or repeat offenders.

Number two: NO dishonest people or people who “color out of the lines” so to speak, do shady business in any way, liars, gas lighters etc. all NO PASSES.

I am suspicious/cautious of people who display any OVERLY FRIENDLY behavior or offer to do significant UNASKED FOR FAVORS upon first acquaintance.

I am suspicious/cautious of anyone who has or ever has had an alcoholic or drug problem. While I do realize there are those who over come it, there are too many “dry drunks” and so I am very cautious where these people are concerned.

Or people who are “overly charming” upon meeting them and want to push too close too fast.

I realize I am a stunning person and really sexy and neat but when folks treat me like I am some sort of “goddess” I get suspicious LOL ROTFLMAO

It really is only those simple rules and cautions that I look out for. But if they are there (like the red flags) I am soooooooo gone! LOL

Ox Drover

Sister, you and clair and I posted over each other.

I am going to bet (though there is no way to ever settle or win the bet) that the guy you just dumped is more than a “trainee” I am going to be this man is a HARD CORE PSYCHOPATH. Anyone who can spend 22 years in prison kiddo AIN’T NO CHOIR BOY! Wasn’t when he went in, and sure wasn’t when he came out. He was my idea of a REAL PRO just an OBVIOUS ONE.

The social skills they learn in prison to survive do NOT PLAY WELL on the outside so he really doesn’t have the social skills to make it without being obvious to anyone who is AWARE of psychopathic red flags.

I think you were pretty sharp to pick up on the gaslighting. You let the paint job sort of spin your head but that’s no big deal, You GOT IT about the gaslighting and that is a BIG TOWANDA girlfriend.

So he was not a “trainee” you just were and ARE a good spotter and now you learned another lesson. NO convicts.

sistersister

As for getting what he wants, which this poster is so proud of, successful people with “unique gifts” for communication, relationship, and leadership get what they want the old-fashioned way — they ask for it. And they accept no for an answer, if that’s the answer. They might try to build a different understanding and then ask again, but either way, they ask openly for things, rather than connive and distort images and realities, to get them. Even if they use “charm,” as he says, they still give the person the dignity of evaluating that charm independently.

Men who spike a date’s drink with a drug aren’t great lovers; they’re rapists. People who misrepresent the condition of a used care aren’t great car salesmen; they’re crooks.

sistersister

Yeah, you’re probably right. I just say “trainee” because they’re so inept sometimes, as Clair says. Their very ineptness can throw you off. You think, “If this guy was pulling a con, why would he be so obvious about it?” Those social skills you talk about — absolutely. Awkward. Maybe that’s a red flag, rather than expecting these people to be “smooth operators.”

Separately, I’m doing business with a convict — a rap artist and former drug dealer who did seven years — and he has done nothing, absolutely nothing, in a year and a half to raise any red flags. Dating someone would be quite a different matter, but an arm’s-length deal with someone who has been to prison is something to be alert to but not an open-and-shut con. We have a choice, and we can trust our judgment and check people out as well. Sometimes you can judge by the nature of their crime; it’s significant that this guy with the gaslighting habit wouldn’t reveal his whole crime to me.

clair

Hope I don’t come across as fawning, but I agree with your Vegas House rules.

I think I’m posting a lot today on LF because I had an ‘encounter’ with a close N relative a few days ago & posting here is a constructive way for me to process it. This N relative is someone I cannot be NC with, so I have LC with him. Ugh! I try so hard to maintain my boundaries with him and stay level headed, but his entitlement is so triggering. For a few days, I felt like I was lapsing back into my dark night of the soul, but I refuse to relapse. Just got to scrub the N goo off me.

Edit: I call this relative an N, but he utterly lacks empathy & he is parasitic, so maybe he really is an SP. Maybe I call him an N because I can’t yet accept that he’s a SP. Bluch! A hard pill to swallow, especially since I can’t go NC. So, LC with my SP. Yuch.

Ox Drover

Clair, Skylar called it “being slimed” and I think that is the best description you can have, it is just like SLIIIIIME!

Those that you can’t go NC with for various reason are the most difficult to deal with I think. I am 99% NC with my own egg donor but I have to consult (ha ha) with her on business of the farm from time to time. I try to do it by e mail but even that sometimes triggers me and throws me into a “spin cycle” and I KNOW about all this stuff but DOING it is different. LOL It makes me want to scream. So don’t apologize for letting this kind of thing throw you off course, it does everyone. Which is why NC is the absolute BEST way to go.

I pity those who have to “co-parent” with them.

Ox Drover

Sister, doing business with someone like that, that you can keep an eye on and are NOT EMOTIONALLY INVOLVED may be okay, but the only business dealings I had with psychopaths, they screwed me, blued me and tattoo’d me! So no, I won’t even do business with a convict now. I do know there are circumstances it works out okay, but not for me. But I’m no longer “doing business” with anyone so it really doesn’t matter.

sistersister

I would definitely not do business with a spath, and if I found out anyone I was doing business with was one in any of their life areas (not just an ex-convict), I would immediately shut down the relationship.

Clair, I remember I took on a roommate once who gave me a creepy feeling. I couldn’t put my finger on it, it was just creepy. But I had already agreed to have her move in, and she hadn’t done ANYTHING to deserve my judgment like that.

Unfortunately, I should have gone with my gut feeling. She was a nightmare, and I had to get rid of her in a couple of weeks. Even that wasn’t easy.

Just that “slime.” If I feel it ever again, I’ll just exit, stage right.

If there is any possible way to NC, I’d recommend it.

clair

Thanks Oxy (hope it’s OK to call you that).
You got it: a family business. I’m financially entwined with him. Blah!
He doesn’t work in the business, in fact he hasn’t worked, hasn’t had a job in 15 years! He gets his $ from the family business in which he does not work. But, truth is, I don’t want him in the business, tried that already & it was horrible. So, fine, he’s a parasite, but at least I don’t have to deal with him in person on a daily basis (Thank GD!)

I used to think (& still do) that it’d be fine that he doesn’t work (& that the business supports him) if he wasn’t so NASTY. But he’s arrogant & entitled and although I make sure I treat him with respect, it feels like I’m dealing with a 6 yr old child. Blah! So, I’m running the business because I’m the one with a business degree & he is jealous. I am slowly detangling my finances from his, so that I am more detached from him. The death of our Borderline/N patriarch set me up in this scenario. But, I chose to go into the family business cuz it’s a good business & I want to grow it. Oh Lord, there must be some karmic lesson in this which I need to learn!! I try to be humble, learn the lesson and pray.

clair

“I should have gone with my gut feeling.”

sistersister,
Of all the lessons I have learned in my journey to heal, the biggest & best one is this: Always listen to your gut, always listen to the small voice within, our intuition.

Yup, slime. I have a large quantity of epsom salts, so that I can take salt baths, which the spiritualists say cleanse one of the slime.

clair

Realization: Having a hard time wrapping my brain (denial!) around the possibility (the fact?) that this relative is a SP, not an N and that I must be in contact with him. I know many here are in that position.
Thank you all for helping me see this.

slimone

“Their very ineptness can throw you off.”

This was a curve ball for me nearly every time. Kinda like that Columbo character that Peter Falk played. He was SO inept, no one ever suspected he was going to nail the bad guy.

Now I spot that ineptness and don’t for one second think that it means the person is well intentioned, but stoooopid.

Crazy like a fox is more like it.

Ox Drover

Clair,

Yep, you did choose to go into the family business….and I chose to do some of the “stoooooopid” things I have done. LOL I wish you luck in dealing with him, but keep in mind it does NOT MATTER AT ALL if he is narcissistic or psychopathic, they are both facets on the same gem….they are both TOXIC.

Is there a way you can buy him out, or somehow get out and start your own business?

I’m stuck dealing with my egg donor until the day she passes away or I do. Nothing I can do about it now, just accept it and move on.

skylar

I think I know what you all mean by “trainee”. They seem to let their masks slip early on so it makes them seem dumb. But that isn’t being dumb, that’s TESTING YOUR BOUNDARIES.

They want to see where you will call them out. Then they back down at that point. this is a critical stage. And they always have an exit strategy: “It was a joke!”, “I was thoughtless.”, “Can’t you forgive me?”.

Or they might use the rage ploy.
When I noticed that my spath was a perpetual liar, I called him out on it right off the bat. Well he went into a RAGE, “DON’T YOU EVER CALL ME A LIAR! I’M NOT A LIAR! I’M NOT A LIAR AND I’M NOT A THIEF! I HATE THIEVES!”

The display of rage was so astounding that I never called him a liar again – for 25 years! I always knew that he was a liar, I just accepted it. That was how he bulldozed right past the tiny little boundary I had.

It’s true that I often call them “failed spaths” because they appear to be having trouble with their masks but maybe it’s just an adjustment rather than a slip. Kind of like a game of peekaboo, so they can see the expression on your face when you see the mask behind the mask. Will she run? How tight does this part of my mask need to be?
😛

clair

Thank you, Oxy.

“Is there a way you can buy him out, or somehow get out and start your own business?”

Yes, I’ve been working towards this for the last couple of years. But, here’s the thang: He refuses to work. He won’t get a job, not even for spending money. The business generates income for him. So, I’m trying to separate the business and find a manager to run his business. I don’t know how good this will be for him. I’m looking for a manager who won’t steal his business’s money & leave him broke cuz I’m not taking him back, nor will I financially support him. So, even after I separate the business, I still have to keep an eye on him to make sure he doesn’t get ripped off. But, at least I will be financially disentangled from him.

Ox Drover

Clair, Okay WHY are YOU responsible for HIM once you separate your business interests from his? Is he old, senile? What? Even if he is all those things, ask yourself why YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR HIM.

That is the thing we have to look at…WE being empathetic and kind, good folks. We try to take on MORE responsibility than we really are obligated to.

I am an only child of my egg donors, so I FELT responsible for her.. but she DISCARDED me, in favor of my P Daughter in Law who then robbed her blind, cheated on my son, and then tried to kill him (she went to jail for this and egg donor got back most of her money) but BECAUSE egg donor did what she did to me,, I realized I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HER. She has plenty of money to care for herself and my cousin is her power of attorney though he does not want to be or really do a good job of it, but NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY. So look at the situation and see if you are REALLY responsible for him, and if so, why?

Ox Drover

Some good points there Skylar as usual! Thanks for those! I don’t think that how much a psychopath one is is determined by how much of their “real face” shows out from under the mask. Look at Charlie manson….he is so obvious to most people that there is NO DOUBT in your mind he is what he is. Then look at Ted Bundy….just as bad, but GREAT MASK so there was hardly a corner sticking out of the mask when he was buddy buddy with anne Rice.

So just because they are easy to spot doesn’t in my opinion mean much, but I think they ARE testing the boundaries like sky said. How much will this dupe take?

My answer is NONE!

bluejay

I think that there is something fundamentally wrong with spaths, especially when they carry out their cons, hurting who knows how many people. We are all negativley affected by those who prey upon us, turning our lives and worlds upside down, not caring about (or giving much thought to) the wreckage that they leave behind. I don’t see how I can possibly “get over” all the crap that the spath has pulled, having heard from others about how he has taken advantage of them. My kids have a father who leaves a lot to be desired – he’s an embarrassment.

skylar

Oxy,
Charlie Manson is a great example of how bizarre the spath encounter can be. You and I can say, or we think we can say, that Manson would not be able to enthrall us, like he did his minions. Then you have to wonder: how DID he do it? It seems impossible that these minions couldn’t see that he was a crazed lunatic.

If you ever met my exspath, you would have the same thoughts. “He looks like a homeless bum, Skylar has some low standards!” Yet he has conned millionaires and billionaires for years. THEY LOVE HIM. They admire him and feel LUCKY to have met an amazing man like him. And lets not forget the preacher – an honest and good man – now dead. Personally, I think he tried to get away from the spath after he realized that he had crossed his own boundaries. He underestimated the evil associated with it and never imagined he’d be killed. My exspath used his “pathetic bum look” to get you to drop your guard. He looks and acts too powerless and helpless to be dangerous. Ted Bundy did the same thing with his leg cast and crutches. That’s how they get you to allow the approach. Once he is close enough, he uses that time to watch for your hooks, your weaknesses, your attachment to your identity.

The way the spath enthralls his victims is by adjusting his mask and tailoring it SPECIFICALLY for you. Anybody watching from the side would see right through it, just as you and I can see that Hitler was nuts and so was Manson. The victim, however, only sees the mask from straight on, positioned to target all her hooks and vital points.

It’s not that I think the mask itself is what makes a true spath because just any old mask won’t do. IMO, what makes a successful and true spath is the ability to read his victims and create a perfectly tailored mask that each victim can’t resist.

Remember that even Hare and Cleckley talked about getting conned by their spath subjects.

Education is one critical key to avoiding spaths. Knowing the red flags is so important. Knowing yourself is even more important, we have to keep those boundaries intact.

And once we see the signs of spath, don’t feed them your emotions!

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