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After the sociopath, hard-learned truths

Before I became entangled with the sociopath, I was an avid consumer of self-help books and programs. Although I was successful in my career, I could not get the relationship thing to work. This, of course, was the vulnerability exploited by the sociopath I married, but I get ahead of myself.

In my quest for answers—Why was I alone? Why couldn’t I find love?—I once participated in a weekend seminar called “Understanding Yourself and Others.” After some initial skepticism, I found the program to be helpful. One of the things I remember from the weekend is a pithy little motto:

“The truth will set you free—but first it will piss you off.”

In reference to sociopaths, truer words were never spoken. When we finally learn the truth about these people, after months, years or decades of deception, we are hurt—but we are also enraged. Then, as we try to dig ourselves out of the hole, we learn more infuriating truths about the inability of other people in our lives, and of society’s institutions, to help us. Let’s take a look at what we learn.

Truths that make us angry

1. The sociopath never loved us. We were used. He or she wanted our money, or sex, or a place to live, or business connections, or a family to make him or her look normal, or whatever. All the promises of eternal love were bald-faced lies. We were supply, that’s all. They toyed with our hearts, and we are furious.

2. Other people just don’t understand. Those who have been lucky enough to avoid entanglements with sociopaths cannot fathom how we fell for it. They don’t comprehend the elaborate deception, the psychological manipulation and our inability to extract ourselves. We hear, “Just get over it already,” and are angry at the callousness of people who say they are concerned for us.

3. Credit card companies don’t care that we’ve been defrauded. The con artists talked us into paying their expenses or giving them money. Unless we can prove identity theft, the credit card companies don’t care how many lies he or she told. Even if a court finds the sociopath guilty of fraud, we’re stuck with the bills—which is patently unfair.

4. Legal authorities cannot cope with sub-criminal sociopaths. Unless the sociopath commits murder or robs a bank, chances are slim that law enforcement will take action. Fraud and domestic violence charges are difficult to prove, so they often don’t get investigated. But even if the police do take action, much of it is undone in the courts. Between manipulating the legal system and lying under oath, sociopaths rarely get the punishment they deserve. Sometimes they actually get away with murder, and we are fit to be tied.

5. Media images of sociopaths are wrong. On television and in the movies, sociopaths are equated with The Sopranos and psychopaths are portrayed as Hannibal Lecter. Some disordered people are, in fact, demented murderers and serial killers, but the vast majority of them are not. By promulgating myths and not reporting reality, the media do a tremendous disservice to everyone. As a trained journalist, this one really pisses me off.

Truths that set us free

6. Evil exists. Many of us got into our predicaments because we did not realize that human beings are capable of the evil that sociopaths perpetrate. Now we know, and knowledge is power. We know to be on the lookout for these predators, so that we do not fall into their traps again.

7. Our intuition knows better. Most of us felt something was wrong with the predator early in the game. We got the tickling in the brain, the twisting in the stomach, telling us to get out. But we let the sociopaths explain away our concerns. Now we know—when it comes to protecting ourselves from evil, our instincts are usually right.

8. We cannot save the sociopath. Sociopaths do not seek treatment. But suppose, due to a court order or fear of losing their gravy train, they do submit to medication or therapy. Suppose the treatment makes them 50 percent less abusive. That’s still 50 percent too much abuse for a healthy relationship. No matter how hard we try to save them, sociopaths are incapable of empathy or love. Adult sociopaths will not suddenly develop a conscience. So we can put down the burden of rescuing them, because it is not possible.

9. We must learn discrimination. An important meaning of the word “discriminate” is “to distinguish accurately.” Our mission in life is to learn when to say yes, and when to say no, so that our decisions support our wellbeing. We cannot abdicate this decision to others, even to people in authority. Some of them are sociopaths. Even if they aren’t, the people in charge do not always have our best interests at heart.

10. We are responsible for our own healing. We’ve been exploited, injured, used, and now we are struggling to overcome the pain. But where did the pain actually begin? There may have been some vulnerability or desire within us—something as normal as wanting to be loved. Somehow we felt we were lacking, and that gave the sociopath an opening. He or she ripped open our hearts, and whatever old wounds were hidden in them. Now we must look within, force ourselves to take stock of everything that’s there, and heal. Even when we have support, it is a lonely journey that we must undertake ourselves. But it is the journey that truly sets us free.


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382 Comments on "After the sociopath, hard-learned truths"

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So true.. all so very true and so very sad.. but also empowering

Never loved us…a mantra of mine.
I recall this everytime I hear himinmy ear syaing: “I never liked you even a little bit.”
The venom was like a vapor, just cold.

And always his statement about “never ever even liking me” struck me because he “acted” so differently and of course,his words matched his lie. So for a long time I thought he was afraid, defensive…I think that’s a normal assumption when someone acts as if you are special to them, say sthe right things…but then does an abrupt about face…

that was a normal assumption before I knew about psychopaths…now I know the joy I saw when he was with me was “duping delight” and the high of pure narcissistic supply.
It was never me. That can/could hurt, BUT NOW I don’t pine for what never was. I didn’t lose something, the r/s never existed. The blow of being used is a wound, but I no longer feel some “unrequited love” crap…I can’t love, befriend what I never knew.

this is all so true.

i find myself still in the fog. still missing him, even though i know his is evil. im unsure how to emotional let go of him?

Donna

I think this essay is the SINGLE BEST ESSAY ON THIS SITE. This sums it up so precisely and concisely that we all ought to print this out and hang it on our refrigerators.

GOOD GOING!

Blondie – only time and understanding of both the mechanics of his illness and learning to accept that will help you control the emotions you have about him.

It is so very hard to understand but for all the pain you are feeling and all the time you take in trying to ‘figure it all out’ he is not giving you the same, he is happily going on his way, oblivious to what he does. You cant change who he is, what he has done or what he will carry on doing. He is an abusive male in every sense of the world and he will carry on doing what he is so good at….abusing.

Try to use this time to think about how to make yourself stronger and what help you need to get you through. Read as much information as you can on the subject, take the books in the car, to work, in the bath and underline bits that make the lightbulb gone on in your brain to say what he is and what he will always do. Read and re-read. Know you can’t change what has happened, even when you understand why he did the things he did. Just know you can change your future in anyway you choose with the right help through reading on this page, reading books and talking to friends who love and support you.

You are the lucky one, you are able to love in a real way and only deserve someone who can give this back to you. Your ex is not that man because as much as you miss him you only miss what you need, whcih is the need to be loved for by someone you can, someone who is caring, real, kind, honest, and someone who loves you so much he would be totally incapable and unable to hurt you. That man is not your ex.

Learn to love and cherish yourself and put all your energy in this.

It will get better, the sadness goes for a while, comes back a bit, goes again and the gaps between the shock and tears get longer until you are able to cope again and look in the mirror to finally see the person you use to be.

This is true Oxy.

I hear ya Blondie. I personally can’t get away from one seeming truth.. of all the men I have ever been with or dated, this is the only one that made me feel like a real woman in the sack. His are the only arms I want, and that just doesn’t seem to change no matter how I feel about his personality and choices. I sometimes think I will never change my mind about that part of it, that maybe I will never be able to really love anyone else.

lol gotta laugh at myself.. tears are in my eyes from writing that, and my heart as usual feels like a hollow shell filled with ashes. I look in the mirror and I have aged way too much in the last year. I barely resemble my own photo anymore. How can I be so brave sometimes and still be so full of pain and hopelessness?

“The truth will set you free—but first it will piss you off.”

1. The sociopath never loved us.

This is the one that really really hurts!!!

When I say this, it is more for our children then I. Don’t get me wrong I did love her and yes it hurt a lot whenever she did reject me, but she had been doing that for years. No the fact that a mother could walk away from her own children, leave the state and blindly move in with a married man in some God forsaken mobile home park and then think both of her children would understand and follow her blindly to “visit” as she stated??? Well, they didn’t understand (neither did I) and they “didn’t” go visit even to this day! So I have asked myself a thousand times… Did she love her own children???

2. Other people just don’t understand.

True and sadly most never will…

3. Credit card companies don’t care that we’ve been defrauded.

Thank God we never share any type of credit together, but she did try oh how she did TRY.

4. Legal authorities cannot cope with sub-criminal sociopaths

This is so true. At times I feel like I am standing on quicksand when it comes to our courts and legal system.

5. Media images of sociopaths are wrong.

How very true! Sometimes we are made to believe that a “sociopath” is mad (crazy) or someone we should pity. These people suffer from a personality flaw not a mental illness.

Truths that set us free

Numbers thru 6 to 10 are correct and right on target! Couldn’t agree more!

I agree with Ox, this is the best essay and every word is written is something I have thought about alot.

#4 reached out to me because it is something that happened to me but I could not put into words and reading it made me feel so relieved because it happens and it is frustrating.

There are 2 cops in the town I live in who know my ex for who and what he is. They have watched him and arrested him on several occasions, but when it came to court….nothing happened. In one case, the officers tried to arrest him, (he ran), they got ahold of his car, found a gun under the seat (he is a felon), I wrote to the courts many letters about what information I knew about how he obtained the gun and that he was a felon, just look at his past record, ect. and again,
nothing. When he went to court, he used his pregnant girlfriend to stay out of jail and it worked. Now, he is a felon with a gun, evading police, and more. Gun/felon alone is supposed to be punishable by up to 10 years in jail… How did he get away with that? Why do the judges do that? They are helping to create even bigger monsters cuz the P’s get away with it. Over and over.

I can imaging the frustration the officers feel. They do their job and it gets them nowhere. I am not a fan of the police in my town, the newspapers have been full of stories of what crappy little things some of the officers are pulling here, but there are good officers just trying to do their jobs, put away the bad guys and look at the thanks they get from the courts.

Whoa, Donna, that is a brilliant, powerful essay.

It speaks volumes to me as I am no longer under any man’s thumb, any man’s illusion of kindness, goodness, any man’s own private dictatorship.

I see the light that you have so eloquently, candidly written. Points of interest for me are: Predators do not deserve our compassion, our concern, our love. Not only do they not deserve us, but they can’t even comprehend the fact that they do not deserve us.

I have discovered that I am my own woman, that I do not need affirmation from a man. I can do what I please, when I wish to do it and noone has the authority to tell me what I can and cannot do!

I am empowered, totally. I exude confidence and self possession, without being aggressive or arrogant. The place I am in right now is the wonderful place that I have always wanted to be in. The place that I wish for all the lovely LF members to eventually reach.

It’s mahvelous ya’ll, to be able to hold my head up high, my shoulders back, my eyes clear and bright, my integrity intact.

The most positive aspect is that I haven’t become bitter from all the past crap. I have maintained my sincerest compassionate, loving, caring, gentle nature and truly thank this fantastic website for helping me become who I am. Today.

Also want to thank the PDIs who have ventured into my life. Thank you, psychos, for giving me immensely painful lessons in what it means to be a good person. Without your evil, selfish ways I might not have become a super gal, ever growing in my spirituality, ever growing in my universal love for wonderful folks, ever growing in my belief and love of myself, ever growing to be thankful that I am not only alive, but I am happy, serene, at peace with me and the world.

Hiya JaneS. Have you checked your inbox? There should be a message and some pics in it for you. If not, let me know. Love and Hugs Bev.

I read something on another site just now that I think is so good. I know I have felt so AFRAID through all of this and I imagine others have too.

“When I care to be powerful–to use my strength in the service of my vision, then it becomes less and less important whether I am afraid.” Audre Lorde

There are so many GOOD lessons we can take away from this horrible and painful and fear inducing experiences. This essay expressed them so well.

A good article Donna. There were a couple of points that really hit home for me. Firstly, we learn through the most difficult scenarios to make better choices in life and lets face it getting involved with the sinister and manipulative forces of those with PDs is a HUGE learning curve. Many of us will be ‘dipping our toes in the dating water’ with alot of caution next time – and that is good. When I got involved with a Narcissist man, I had no idea where this was going to take me in one short year and I am still learning off the back of not only what happened to me, but from the kindness and wisdom put forward here by contributors. Bless you all.

Secondly, I am definately one of those people who has alot of books also and I STILL cant get the relationship thing to work, even when I am in a relationship – because it doesnt matter what formula you use, the other person will always be a ‘wild card’ – perhaps the choices we made to the universe signify how we uphold ourselves. But we were duped and that is different.

Yes! I did, Bev!

Just sent you a little email with some pics. Forgot to mention my kitties names. Bazil is the chubby one with big green eyes, Molly is the lanky heathenous brat with the tawny eyes.

They are my baby brats and I love them truly, deeply, madly! 🙂

Thanx JS, I will look at it now. I love cats too, but they make me sneeze aaaaatishoooo! I forgot to mention my brother’s new baby Gabriella, that was the purpose of the photo.

Thanx JaneS. I opened my mail and all I can say is WOW!!!!!

Oxy, if you met me 5 years ago and compared that woman to me today, you would be shocked.

I was a certified neurotic, Agoraphobic, Hypochondriac, you name the phobia and I had it! They were caused from my life long battle with generalize anxiety. I was mess. The doctor’s wanted me to take tranquilizers and I was adament against temporary solutions. I wanted to get to the root of my anxiety because I was so sick and tired of being afraid of everything, even my own shadow.

Well, I frantically started searching on the internet for the causes, the symptoms, the solutions for generalized anxiety and panic attacks. I found the most wonderful, beneficial downloadable e book, written by an Irish fella who offered a history of his own struggle with anxiety/panic attacks and the physiological/phychological manifestations and causation for anxiety.

He described to me that what I was feeling was simply the flight or fight response. That those frightening, bizarre tingling sensations in my extremities, the hyper sensitivity, those scary, obsessive thoughts were simply my mind and my body readying itself for fighting or fleeing.

What a relief! I’m not crazy! He also said the best way to rid yourself of panic attacks was to confront them head on. That logic made total sense to me as I am a fighter. If you tell your mind repeatedly to..”bring it on, panic attack!” it simply won’t happen. Can’t happen, not if you’re in charge.

Little by little I was able to defeat my 20+ year battle with anxiety. Little by little I was able to confront all my fears without flinching. This was the time where I surrendered all my cares, worries to Our Holy Father because I knew I had 0 control over anything.

It took discipline and courage to do what I had to do to get well.

And now, I am!…haha. No more anxiety, no more panic attacks, and I’m no longer fearful of adrenaline rushes. I actually dig them now, but I won’t become addicted…haha.

Bev,

awww…you’re allergic to kitties? boo…

I would go mad without those furry little bundles of joy in my life. Yes, they drive me up the wall with their running hither and thither in the middle of the night, but then they steal my heart over and over again when the curl up next to me, purring and loving on me. My kids..haha.

Oh, yeah, the baby is GORGEOUS! My bio clock has been teasing me like crazy telling me I gots to hurry up and make a baby…haha.

JS, Yes, I am, more in the summer, when their fur is flying around. But cats love me. I have a soft spot for most animals, including creepy crawlies and I love dragonflies. I will chat more on email and send you more pics. (((hugs)))

Thanks for this Donna. An excellent summary of the frustratons and lessons we learn from a Sociopath of disordered/exploitive partner.

kat_o_nine_tales,

I can relate to your post about “feeling like a woman.” I know what you mean. It’s kind of weird but Bad Man did try to create a spiritual connection in the B-room. The thing is, all the things he did he read in a book. Even that wasn’t real. It was not coming from his heart.

There is something about this pretend “deep” lovemaking that digs deep in the hearts of women.

Oh well. It’s best I don’t go down that road in my mind. It goes nowhere and it doesn’t help me to trudge forward.

Have a good day everyone. :o)

Aloha…….. E

Jane, there are so many people who have anxiety attacks and will NOT admit no matter what the evidence that they are not “dying”—I have been very frustrated working with them both in general family medicine and in psychiatriy. I am so glad to know that there is ONE PERSON AT LEAST that has learned to cope with these things.

I have had ONE panic attack and it was truly awful I can vouch for that! I knew what it was and I coped with it but it was truly terrible.

I am hyper-responsive to adreneline anyway, and even the adreneline in the numbing shot that the dentist gives would make my heart plapate and all that. I figured out what it was and so now I ask them not to give me the shots with the adreneline in it if possible. Sometimes it is necessary but I know what is going on and the palpations etc don’t scare me.

Medication for anxiety attacks is sometimes necessary for some people, because with the chemical natures of our brains it is sometmes overwhelming like depression and it is just a matter of you absolutely can’t over come it without medicine, but even WITH medication it is also a “self help” thing for that panic attack thing. I DO understand however from that one experience how frightening it could be to anyone.

I am happy for you that you managed to get a handle on them. Again, it only proves to me what a powerful person you are, WE ALL ARE, if we will just put our own powers to work for us. Overcome our fears (most of which are not realistic, just like “worrying” is usually totally “futile” but we all do it to some extent or another!)

All of my worries are always rooted in a fear of some kind, and my fears are NOT GENERALLY ever realized, and so working on the “fear of tomorrow” is a big thing with me from time to time. “How will I do X, if Y happens?” Well, now I try to wait until Y happens befsore I start concerning myself with how I will cope with it.

It’s all a slow process, and different facets from day to day, but baby steps I keep telling myself, do amount up to miles.

This is my first time posting and I am very glad I found a place where my story doesn’t sound like I am the crazy one. When I tell about my situation I feel like it should be a Lifetime story.

Just last week I have realized that my ex S is a felon. I have known that he was a sociopath since I started seeing my counselor in June, in addition to a liar and a cheat. He embezzled a lot of money while colluding with someone else. Restitution needs to be made or charges will be filed and they will be going to jail. He told me the half truth—someone did something wrong, he knew about and didn’t tell anyone. The other half is that he did the same thing too. I haven’t asked for his version of the story, since it won’t be the truth (it never is), but have gotten the truth through reliable sources. I feel like I need to keep ahead of the 8 ball and be proactive in devising a plan for myself and my kids. I feel like I am taking control of my life and not waiting to be blindsided. I need to protect my kids. According to him, everything is behind him and is settled. Truthfully, not by a long shot.

He has conned so many people out of money for so many years and is engaged to be married to someone who doesn’t have a clue that she is being conned—she is ignoring all of the red flags. He will probably have her come up with the funds for restitution. I hope he doesn’t, so he goes to jail, where he belongs. He seems to weasel out of everything and is never held accountable for his actions.

He makes everything on the surface appear great—nonchaotic. However, his personal finances are just a mess (bounced checks, credit cards maxed), in addition to his potential criminal record. He is renovating his house, but owes back child support and restitution. I just want to scream and yell from the rooftops that he is such a con artist, thief, cheat and liar!

Since June I have been trying to uncover the truths of the past and now of the present. I am trying to face the truth rather than burying my head in the sand like I did when I was married. Being in control and facing the truth is emotionally exhausting”Still, it is difficult for me to see the monster in him.

Dear Ginger,

Welcome to LF–I’m sorry that you have had to find this place through trying to heal from an experience with a sociopath. I know “it is difficult to see the monster in” them sometimes, when they have the “mask of sanity” covering their faces.

Some of them are very good at that disguise. I hear your frustration and your pain. Most of us, I think, feel like our lives should be on some “sci fi” channel or something because it can’t be “real.” I have found that many people can’t even believe it IS REAL, so you are among good company here, WE BELIEVE YOU!

The best advice I can give anyone coming here is to read every essay written here and as many of the blogs as you can, there is such a WEALTH of knowledge here. I think without a doubt this is THE BEST SITE on psychopaths and their tricks than any other site. The owners and other regular posters are super super people and know their stuff. There are lots of professionals here in medical and mental therapy and they have also been conned as well as the rest of us, so don’t feel like you “should have known” and beat yourself up over it, these con men/women have fooled smarter people than you can even imagine. It isn’t about them being smart and us being dumb, it is all aobut they LIE LIE LIE and have no consciences.

You will find a wealth of knowledge and to me Knowledge=power to protect yourself. Again, welcome.

ally~ your right, all i want is someone to love me, to hang out with me, to care about me, to go on trips with. im missing the relationship part. i have to remind myself that as much he was doing those things with me it wasnt real. he was lying to someone else about what he was doing. he was saying i love you to someone else. he was doing things with her while i was at home or at work. he tells me he made a mistake. as much as i just want to say ok i forgive you. I CANT DO IT. i did that before and look when im at again.

kat_o_nine_tales ~ i agree with you. i feel like im never going to love anyone again. im going to be stuck on my feelings for him forever.

rebuilding my life has been so hard.

it makes me so mad that my ex thinks im not being an adult b/c im not talkin to him, or not givin him a chance. all he says is he wishes we could be adults and talk about us. AHHHHH its all this madness

I agree with Oxy…this is the single best article in a site filled with brilliant articles.

It’s still a kick in the guts when I remind myself that he never loved me and that our entire relationship was a scam to get what needed from me – a play to live, money and whatever else he could get. My intuition was niggling away at me all the time but I made a conscious decision to ignore those faint whispers. I made a commitment to him and I was determined to trust him and support him no matter what.

I had lunch with my brother’s ex-wife today – she is as dear to me as if she was my blood sister – and I told her I’d realised something. I’d realised I wasn’t wrong to love and trust as I did. What I should do differently from now on though is to grant that love and trust to people who earn it, who prove themselves through their actions, not just by saying what I most want to hear.

Financially my ex-P didn’t do too much damage because my brother had already just about ruined me financially already. Last week I hired an attorney to get back the money my brother owes me so that I can start getting my finances back on track again. That was a huge step for me. So far only his ex-wife knows. When I told her today she high-fived me and told me she was really proud of me. 🙂

I know my decision to take legal steps against my brother is going to create waves in my family and I have no doubt that some of them will drag my name through the mud. But enough is enough. I allowed my brother to use me and that stops right now. He hasn’t given a thought to the stress and hardship he’s caused me and now he has to face the consequences of his actions.

My ex-P is in jail where he belongs. If he tries to contact me when he gets out I will take legal steps to force him to keep his distance from me.

I recently came off my anti-depressants and have endured a miserable two weeks coping with the withdrawal. It’s been sheer hell in fact. I’m much better now, though I still get headaches and bouts of nausea. The meds helped me when I needed it but now I no longer want to be numbed. I need to feel what I feel.

These are all steps in my recovery process. I’m slowly getting there.

I’d like to say to Ginger and Blondie especially…you’ve already proven how strong you are because you got away from your monsters and you’re still standing. I know there are times when you feel like a strong breeze will blow you away. It’s ok to feel like that. It’s ok to be angry and frustrated and question everything, including yourselves. Give yourselves the space to feel what you feel. Just never give those men the opportunity to get back into your lives. They do not deserve to breathe the same air you breathe.

You will get through this in time. There is no timetable for healing. It will take the time it takes. Pamper yourselves occasionally…go out for a good meal, go to the hairdresser or simply sit in the sun and enjoy doing nothing for a while. You’ve been battered and you need some TLC. And always remember that you are good people who did not deserve what happened to you. You are kind compassionate loving people…so much more than these psychopaths could ever dream of being.

Well said Odette. We cant change what happened and we cant take back the love we gave, we acted in good faith. But we have learned through this unfortunate experience to be more cautious about giving away our valuable love energy, so that it is not exploited against us again. Many of us have learned a tough lesson that we shall never forget and we have learned to heed our intuition and look for the backup actions to words and not be taken in by their seductive charms.

What kills me the most is, I know my cheater bf fell in love with me. Everyone that knew him said the same thing, that they had NEVER seen him act like that before, that he was making changes they would have never believed. Our lovemaking was sheer heaven but not because he did anything special .. it was the connection.

But that wasn’t enough to hold him. He said the feelings of love made him feel vulnerable, scared and weak. He equates love with abuse, from way way back, and has kicked both me and love out of his life permanently. Pretty sad, so sad, but I wish I had never met him, because now everyone I date is just “not him”.. I feel so stupid.

i understand what you mean kat about the way they made us feel in the bedroom……i think that was a talent..jut like some are good at football, some at basketball, this was a talent he honed…the other sports, you hope for a big payoff and so they do in this “SPORT” as well….he frequently referred to sex as sport anyway…..i think thats how he justified all his messing around………and yes those memories make it hard to find another man to compare….but that is of course unless we find another dramatic actor………..i think he would get his ideas from the porn he was addicted to and then try them all out …..who knows how many others he had feeling that they were the sexiest woman alive………sooooo sad for us

Kat,
I can understand exactly how you feel and it isn’t stupid at all. I think for most women, sex is a much more emotional experience than for men ( sorry guys) and in many cases it the thing that ‘hooks’ us up to someone who is sadly lacking in other areas. The deep emotional feelings that good sex evokes literally blinds us to reality.
Most P’s seem to have a kind of raw, animal -like magnetism and most I would say have perfected the art of sex because (a) they are promiscuous and (b) because they realise it a is a way to control someone. I can remember witnessing my P hit on someone ( while he was with me) and he literally oozed sex. It was almost magical the way he gave off those feramones. At the time, I felt humiliated , hurt and angry but I realise now that his behaviour had nothing personally to do with me or the other woman, it could have been anyone just because they were there and he wanted some fun.
I feel terribly guilty about enjoying the sex with my P as I am a married woman but like you it still feels as if it was the best I ever had. The way I deal with that is to remind myself that I was playing out my own fantasies and he just tapped into them and used them against me for his own gain. No matter how ‘good’ it was, there is so much more to life and relationships than that and those feelings are mine and mine alone to deal with. The relationship I now have with my husband is so so much better than with a P. It is REAL.
Try to put your own feelngs of him in a little box and label it ‘fantasy’. There is no shame in having those thoughts but you need to recognise them for what they are and then turn your attention to finding relationships that are genuine and good for you. It is possible and you will find happiness once you stop comparing ‘normal’ people to a predator.
Swallow

i realize that everytime ive had contact with my ex. he acts like he is the victim. all i hear is how he made a mistake. im not being a adult about this sitution. i left him. he loves me. how mean iam to him. how different iam to him. its the first sign that nothing changed with him, not that i really expect anything. it just renforces my decsion to get away.

Well said, Odette!

I also hope that you get your money from your brother. I agree that it may divide your family, but at the same time if it does, it does. I’ve been there and just because someone is blood to you does not mean that they should be allowed to abuse you with impunity. You go girl!

I’m glad that you are doing well and making good progress.

This is exactly what I needed to read today. I have been triggered in a HUGE way. I went to see my cousin yesterday as her b/f broke up with her. It was sudden and abusive. He left her questioning what SHE did to make him behave that way. He used the “silent treatment” and “control” taking his house key from her with no explanation. He left her standing outside crying and confused, refusing to talk to her.

She shared with me other things he has done and I cringed. I told her that he was my ex S through and through. I asked how long they’ve been together…4 months. Bingo. Typically after 3 months people start to reveal their true selves. If the S/N/Ps are under any stress the mask usually cracks and you get a glimpse of who they truly are.

Then he called. I saw her conviction for “no more” drop after she met with him to talk. I saw my former self in her and every cell in my body wanted to scream. I warned her that face-to-face he can manipulate her easier. She said she was strong and would hold to her convictions. I wonder how quickly she succumbed to his lies.

My first question after they met was, “Did he tell you that he did what he did because of what someone else has done to him in the past?” The classic blame game. “Yes”, she said. “How did you know?” I had spent the WHOLE day telling her that what he has done throughout the relationship is controlling and abusive. His tactics were to confuse her and to lower her self-esteem. I don’t even need to describe them. We’ve all been there. They ALL hit home. Even the “deadpan” joking where she couldn’t tell if he was serious or not. That used to infuriate me as I felt my ex S was purposefully trying to make me look stupid. and inferior. He was! Just like talking over my head because goodness knows he’s an “expert” in everything. Funny how the only big words he ever used with me that stuck in my mind were “mellifluous” and “vitriolic”. Truly the two sides of his personality. OK, I know I’m raging here. I just need to let it out before I implode!!!

Oh, funny thought…the S/N/Ps would explode. I think us victims tend to implode. That’s the difference folks between ego-syntonic and ego-dystonic. Thank God for a moment of humor. Now if I could only laugh. I hate feeling this way.

I have met my cousin’s b/f only once and I had a horrible feeling inside about him. I told her I was worried that I was projecting my “stuff” onto him. I have recently been listening to that intuition and paying attention and it’s paid off in big ways. I am working on not doubting myself anymore. I feel as though I can sense S/N/Ps a mile away. My intuition is on hyperalert!

I know I need to let my cousin go and I have said all I can and given her as much food for thought to consider why she has chosen to give him another chance. All I can do is be here for her. But I feel as if I just relived my WHOLE experience again. I am frustrated. I was doing so well. I know this is just a glitch in my recovery. But today I am a mess. I want this pain to be over!

I want so badly to go on the websites where my ex S blogs and reveal him. That is what he fears the most. He immediately “took a break ” from one website that he knows I know of. It’s were I caught him lying and started to figure him out. He doesn’t know I am aware of the others. I can’t do a thing. I will only look like a crazed stalker. I know that’s what he wants. I just want to stop this craving at times to lash out. I am sick that he portrays being this know-it-all, humble and supportive athlete. He is a monster! I don’t like these feelings and I’m tired of them. Where is my peace of mind today?

I don’t like feeling this way. I don’t like being reminded of him. UUUUGGGGHHHH!

“The truth will set you free—but first it will piss you off.”

This is so true.

I started saying last year that, “The truth will set you free- it may shock and abhor you- but it will set you free”.

Dear takingmeback,

I am so glad that your cousin has you and your new knowledge about psychopaths. She will be back and you will be there for her. Think how wonderful that will be for her! We can all pass on this “GIFT of knowledge” to others who are suffering. Viktor FRankl found meaning in his suffering, I want there to be some meaning in mine. Something good it will bring not only to me, but to others.

Your peace of mind will return, this is just a pot hole on the road to healing, I fall in them frequently, but NOT as frequently as I did before…I think I crawled the first 100 miles up hill on my hands and knees! But how you get there is not the point it is the point that you are on the road to healing!

((((BIG HUGS)))) for a STRONG woman! YOU!!!!

Thanks Oxy. Your support means more than I can put into words. I almost posted on here crying out for you. You bring me such calm. I find your words so soothing. I feel I should be paying you for therapy. I wish I could meet you and get that big hug sometimes. I just hate that other people don’t understand and I feel I can’t talk to others in my life because I’m the damn therapist

Now I feel I’m labelled as the therapist who sees sociopathy everywhere. My colleagues don’t get it as I’ve tried to educate them about socipathy and what it really looks like. It’s not projection from my personal experience it’s from the uber amount of research I have done on the suject as a result of my experience.

Yet I hear, “Oh I don’t think he has Cluster B traits, I think he just has Bipolar d/o.” Yes which is often comorbid with cluster B traits and no not with everyone! “Oh, well yes she’s has daily SI/HI and threatens to take others down with her when she’s finally pushed over the edge, but I think you’re missing the focus on her Axis I diagnosis of Depresion.” No the depression is part of her anger and rage against society because she’s not like everyone else. It stems from her Axis II d/o which is primary. Or the, “I just think you need to focus on the symptoms and ignore the diagnosis”. OK, but don’t you think it’s important to determine if we’re dealing with ego-syntonic or ego-dystonic traits? Do you call that resistance and ,if so, for how long? Isn’t there a reason we have different treatment modalities for different disorders? I can’t even tell you how many clients I get assigned who come with NO Axis II diagnoses and are clearly PDIs. Folks are not asking the right questions to determine these things. It’s so frustrating and I look like the obsessive one as if I’m seeking to find a sociopath at every turn. I’m so not. But when it’s there, damn it, it’s there!

Tonight I just want to scream that I am not as strong as people think I am. It hurts to feel that my colleagues are rolling their eyes behind my back because of what happened to me. Sometimes I think I fool myself into believing I am strong. But I can’t stop telling myself I’m strong. I have clients who depend on me and I owe it to myself to keep living and start living more fully again. I will not let this defeat me but I get so tired. I think all the tears I’ve cried over the past year+ could fill up an ocean by now. OK, at least a Great Lake. I am trying to find humor and hold to me.

I feel like the doctor who makes the worst patient. I’m the therapist who chooses at the last minute, just before I slide completely into the deep, dark abyss, to use my coping skills. I have to tell myself to breathe, to do thought-stopping, to try a relaxation technique…oh and to take my prn meds when needed. I make a horrible client some days!

Dear Takingme back,

My dear I do KNOW EXACTLY what you mean about not feeling strong. I have wished so many times to just curl up in someone else’s arms and have someone take care of ME for a change. “Being on the WRONG side of the clip board” as a therapy PATIENT instead of being the therapist was a big BIG step for me, and it never felt right. Doctors ARE bad patients and so are therapists as therapy patients and so are nurses, etc. We think of ourselves as the care GIVERS not the care RECEIVERS. We can easily see the diagnosis on someone else but have a DIFFICULT TIME seeing our own becaue we know what we are feeling, and putting our therapy skills into practice for ourselves is THE most difficult thing.

I think that is why this site is so good for me, is that there are so many professionals here that are in the same boat as I have been—totally conned. It isn’t because I am stupid or uneducated, it is I am HUMAN, just like THEY” ARE HUMAN. I have always been a perfectionist with ME, not with others, but with myself. I am now having to learn to fail. Learn to forgive myself for not being perfect.

Yea, your peers DON’T GET IT, and yea they roll their eyes, but they have had your experience. REMEMBER: “THERE IS NO FANATIC LIKE A CONVERT” You have SEEN the light, you have been CONVERTED and you want to run out and tell the world your new found knowledge and NO ONE BELIEVES YOU. That is so typical I think with all of us as victims. We want to convince others of the TRUTH of our discovery, but they ahve no forum in which to comprehend the truth of our “preaching.” Besides, they don’t want to believe it is even possible, because it is a SCARY concept that there REALLY are EVIL people out there, it would make their world seem unsafe to believe it.

I’m glad that you can relate to the things I say about my own situation. It has been a long hard road for me—a life time leading toward all this, from FOO dysfunction to a genetic history of Ps on both sides of my ancestry. I’m actually pretty impressed that I have done as well as I have and not become a flaming “nut case.” I credit a great deal of my success in all aspects of my life to my great step father who was a wonderful Christian man and a great mentor, encourager and cheer leader. I know that he was the basis of my Christian faith and what sense of self esteem I have. His confidence in me was unwavoring and his love for me as well. Every child or person in this world should have at least ONE person like him who loves them unconditionally. His unconditional love and unconditional trust of me made me know that I just couldn’t let him down by doing something I knew was bad or nasty. His faith iin God was so strong and so comforting.

I have been always perceived as “strong” by others because I don’t give up easily, but inside I have never “felt” strong, well let me rephrase that, I have not ALWAYS felt strong, sometimes I have. But you know, I realize too that bravery is not being unafraid, it is BEING AFRAID and doing what you know needs to be done anyway. So is strength. It is not feeling strong, but just keeping on going, even when you are tired, discouraged and distraught. So I AM STRONG, I just get tired sometimes, and I am learning to REST as well. To take care of ME. No matter how strong you are, you need REST, anyone does. Taking that rest when we need it is part of being STRONG. Listening to ourselves and taking the things WE NEED, such as rest. I used to feel guilty if I rested, but now I know it is essential to strength.

I can tell you takeingmeback, that you ARE STRONG, but you may need some rest. Give yourself that break, take care of YOU. I can THROW that “stone” because I have been just the same way so very many times! (((Hugs)))) I would love to be able to put my real arms around your shoulders as well. But I am so grateful that we have this avenue to communicate, Isn’t the internet wonderful! To bring people together for healing. Thank you Donna for LF.

Oxy,

You are hands-down correct about REST. I need it and I don’t get enough. I am afraid of it. I spent so many months waking up not knowing where I was and who I was that I still have that fear. Yes, even though it happens less and less now. I hated mornings when reality would set it after a few minutes of confusion and panic. The days when I could find no meaning to my life. I still have to remind myself at times of my meaning. I don’t want to forget who I am ever again.

Twice I’ve had PTSD and it’s so awful a feeling. But this is the worst I have ever had it. The other being a sudden tragic event. This is more personal and more intrusive than, as we know, most people can imagine.

I am also thankful for LF. I am thankful for your understanding, Oxy, of what it’s like being a caregiver in need of our own care. How hard that is. Thanks for all the virtual hugs as well :).

I’m glad you had your step-father. He sounds like he was a wonderful man. You were truly blessed to have him. Yes, everyone needs that ONE person in life who loves them and trusts them. I am glad you had that in yours. You’ve struggled hard but what a beautiful woman you are as a result. Ever becoming moreso with each day.

In my family of Ns I have a wonderful mother who’s kept us together and who’s kept me sane with her unconditional love as well. I don’t know how she’s done it. She thinks so little of herself (my father’s an N) and yet she’s my hero. So often my father put her between him and my sister and I. I still hear him say, “you’re choosing the children over me”. Yeah, that was a common statement when my father would get physically abusive and she’d take us to a hotel overnight in fear that he’s wake up in the middle of the night and kill us. Ah, such memories. Interesting how the only two men I’ve ever said, “I love you” to were both homicial towards me at one point. What lovely memories. Ick!

But I’ve seen my mother get stronger through the years as my father has a debilitating medical condition. He can no longer be physcially abusive towards us as he used to be. I have set firm boundaries with him and I have seen my mother do the same in some ways. Luckily my father needs her due to his condition and limited mobility and constant pain. He can’t be as cruel as he used to. Not that he doesn’t get close with his tongue at times. But he’s trapped and can’t take it too far. The risk is too great for him of losing all of us. He needs us and especially my mother. I’m just sad that she’s spent the majority of her life for him. I wish I had more time with her. But growing up it was all about dad. Now he’s sick and it’s still all about dad. It’s no wonder it’s taken me so many years to work towards taking care of myself without feeling guilty for it.

Well, I’m gonna do what I need to and get some rest. Thanks for the reminder Oxy. You are such a blessing. I so needed to hear from you tonight and I thank God you were here. When I was hurting so badly earlier I truly just wanted to post asking where you were. I know there are so many wonderful people on this site but tonight you were on my mind. Thank you. God truly knows what we need and provides doesn’t he?

God Bless

I

Dear Takingmeback.

I had the PTSD and I know I have had it earlier too and no treatment, just muddled through, but I got the rapid eye movement therapy and I do think it really helped me a GREAT deal. I’m not sure how it works or even if it is just a placebo effect, but whatever it is, it worked for me. I highly recommend it.

I’m glad I was able to help you and I know it helps to know that someone else has also gone through the same or similar things than you have, or knows what aspect you are coiming from.

I’m sorry that your mother has spent so much of her life in the Narcissistic hell on earth, but I am sure there will be a special star for her in her crown in heaven for taking care of her children. Mothers of their generation didn’t have as many opportunities to be independent as we do and so many of them endured and never even thought about escaping from the marriage of horror, but at least she protected her children and that is a STRONG woman to be able to do that.

You obviously have some of her great strength!

Rest and I hope that you get some good rest tonght. God bless.

Donna- Thanks for that essay. And for this website. I have healed in way’s that never would have happened had I not had the experience with the P. This website has revealed to me that “The truth will set you free-but first it will piss you off!” I have been in that fog for so long, I was just living life so unaware that I needed too turn my fog light’s on. I have posted some thing’s here I regret. As I continue to read this blog, and become more aware to the devastation and financial ruin and pain and agony and sometimes life altering experience’s so many of these blogger’s have endured and are continuing to endure. My experience with my X sociopath seem’s so trivial in comparison. I blog “talk about” my X (BF) the most, because it was the one that brought me to my knees. But the real truth is my life has been ruled by my ignorance. And so much damage was done to me as a child at my mother’s hand, the mother that I worshiped and put before myself and even before the very people that loved me most. The truth has finally pissed me off and it is time for me to live MY truth the way MY universe connect’s with my soul. Thank you Donna-and to all you blogger’s “you know who you are” that have shared their story’s, shared their fears, shared their giggle’s with me. Thanks too all of you………..!

i’m feeling like my life is nothing without him. i feel like i will never have a life again. i feel lost without him. i feel like my life will never be rebuilt. my feelings for him will never go away. he took my life from me, thats how i feel. he took my lifestyle from me. he was my life. he was my world. He took my summer away. he was everything to me. i was nothing to him. just a pretend person. why couldt i be his everything. why couldt i be his world like i thought. im sure he is going on with his daily life, and he has friends, he has that same lifestyle. i feel completly empty. im going to wake up everyday and im still goin to be here in this same spot. my life is never going to be filled with friends again. i feel like im never going to find someone who i have feelings for again. its a beautiful day here in the midwest, and im sitting here on my computer alone with my doggies! its just another lonley day of my life

Blondie, blondie, blondie.. every time you talk like this it’s like you’re speaking for me as well. I guess we are at about the same point.. despair, alternating with hope.. sighs. Keep your chin up girl.

Takingmeback wrote:

“Oh, funny thought”the S/N/Ps would explode. I think us victims tend to implode. That’s the difference folks between ego-syntonic and ego-dystonic.”

So is that why many of us have internalized our emotional pain & suffering over the years and the result is self loathing, feelings of worthlessness, uselessness, feeling unlovable?

Hmm….very interesting dynamic. I’ve always been the kind of person who literally detested hurting another human being, either physcially and/or verbally. I would take, and take, and take the abuse without saying a word, think slink away to my bedroom and cry my eyes out blaming myself for being such an awful person, otherwise why would someone say such terrible, heartbreaking things to me?

I wish I had the exact words to express to the lovely, wonderful Donna and to all you beautiful people how very much LoveFraud means to me. I don’t think without discovering this site I would be as strong and sure of myself as I am today.

Yes, I will always be a gentle, kind person who still detests hurting others in any form whatsoever, but I will no longer….”bend over for the abuse” (Kathy’s powerful words).

No longer will I allow another human being to tear my self confidence to shreds. No longer will I allow another human being to speak harsh, cruel, undeserved words to me in an effort to destory me. NO MORE, I SAY!!

We are all stronger than we give ourselves credit for. We have all slowly climbed out of our self imposed prisons of failure and have proven to ourselves and to others that we are awesome, loving/lovable women and men.

As I have said so many times never, ever let anyone steal/rob/exploit/pilfer the fundamental truth of yourself. That all of you are brilliant, beautiful, compassionate peeps with valuable knowledge, experience, uncommon wisdom to share with folks of the same ilk, the kindred spirits.

I now wish to extend a sincere, genuine great big cyber HUG for everyone. 🙂

Dear Henry,

(slap slap) That;s the sound of me clobbering you up side the head my friend! Your pain is NOT TRIVIAL, NO pain is trivial. Remember what I said about how pain acts like a gas, even if it is a little pain it COMPLETELY FILLS THE CONTAINER it is put into. Your pain is YOUR PAIN and it filled you completely. My pain is MY pain and it filled me COMPLETELY. No one here has “more” pain than anyone else, and no one’s pain is trivial.

The outside damage that they do may be different, but it doesn’t trivialize those of us that didn’t go into bankruptcy or that didn’t lose a leg, an eye or an arm. It devestated us all completely.

That’s one of the great things about this site too, is that we all realize that we may have lost different “things” in terms of money, homes, etc. but it is still a BIG LOSS and no o ne is here trying to say “well, MY loss is bigger than yours” because LOSS is LOSS. PERIOD!!! Now, you write that out 500 times or go stand in the corner! (Joke!) ((((Hug))))

Henry, this thing of realizing that my mother has been involved in all of this enabling and so on my entire life has hit me like a bombshell too. A couple of years ago I actually was so delusional about her being so “honest” and “caring” etc. though looking back I can see the horrible things she has done to me, even as an adult in enabling my P son. And to realize that she actually TRADED ME for the X-DIL and the Trojan HOrse P, threw me away, discounted me entirely, totally overwhelmed me. I would have died for that woman. When she was ill, and daddy was ill, I was there for them 24/7 for months and months. Willingly, because I wanted to be. My demonstrations of my love for her meant nothing to her, if she couldn’t have ABSOLUTE CONTROL over me she didn’t want me at all. Just as the story of Kiing david and his P-son Absalom (go read that in your Bible, in the two Books of Samuel) and how the whole country had fought Absalom to save DAvid’s life and kingdom and when his son was killed in the last battle, his grief was not for the sacrifices of the people but for how own loss of his psychopathic murdering son. David’s general came to him and said “David, I perceive that if we had all died and Absalom had lived, you would have been well pleased.” David, though a sinful man was still a good man, and when his faults were pointed out to him, he always listened, repented and changed his ways. He realized that what the general said was true. I told my own mother the last time we “spoke” about all of this chaos that I felt truly that if I had DIED and my P-son had gotten out of prison to come live with her before she died, she would have been WELL PLEASED. When I saw the look on her face, I knew I was right. If he had succeeded in murdering me but it meant that he got to come home and live with her before she died, she would still have been happy. HOW SICK IS THAT?! Now, she has nothing, because he will never get out of prison during her life (I hope he never does) and she no longer has a daughter that trusts or believes in her. Both of her other grandsons don’t believe in her either or trust her. So she is alone in this world except for the hired caregives she has. What a shame, because it was so unnecessary. But unlike King David, even when her “sins” are pointed out to her, she refuses to acknowledge them or repent or change her ways. This leaves me with only one option—I must accept that she does not love me, and I am not going to torture myself by trying to believe she does. I am going to look at her ACTIONS and the way she treats me, and I must accept that she and my son are both the same, neither of them has my good at heart or loves me. It isn’t what I wanted, but I must accept that, fix my own self, and realize that I don’t need their approval to be a good person, to be approved of by God. I can VALIDATE myself. It would be wonderful to have a mother I could trust, I deluded myself for so long, but it didn’t make me happy. The truth does piss me off, but it has FINALLY SET ME FREE from the pain of delusion and the pain caused because I never could quite make the square pegs fit into the round holes.

Blondie, I know that right now you feel terribly alone, your post shows that, and God alone knows how most of us have felt just the same way, but day by day, step by baby step, we have crawled out of that dark hole we felt we were in. You will too, Blondie! I just know you will, and life will get better!!!! Keep reading, learning and making plans. You are depressed rightn now (and who wouuldn’t be) and our depression makes us feel that we will never feel better, but one foot in front of the other starts the healing journey. Sometimes I feel like I am walking a road as long as Marco Polo walked, and over the same kinds of mountains. Sometimes I have felt so alone that no one on the face of the earth cared if I lived or died, but that is not true! Do something good for yourself, eat a fudge cicle, eat a whole box of Godiva chocolates, get a massage, take your doggie for a walk, even a tiny thing. Go to a nursing home and visit someone who has no family. Do something to make yourself feel good, worthwhile and whole! You are a wonderful and caring person or you wouldn’t be feeling this way. The fact that you feel bad shows you have a HEART. If you didn’t feel bad right now, you would be like THEM, and God Forbid that because what amiserable life it must be to not be able to love! ((((BIG Hugs))))

I just feel like saying yes, yes, yes to all of you, I sit here and nod all the time when I read all your words.

Do you suppose there are traits alike in us victims too? And why is it that so many of us are intelligent? It makes me feel just so stupid that I fell for this shit AGAIN, after all that I’ve learned too. I guess I just didn’t recognize the latest form of abuse.. after all my cheater ex has never said an unkind word to me.

Dear Kat, Every experience brings fresh insight and we just keep increasing and expanding our knowledge. If we missed something or forgot the lesson the first time around, or there is something extra we need to learn, we get the experience back in a different format. So please dont be harsh on yourself, we cannot possibly know everything. I liked the saying ‘Devils know Angels, but Angels dont know Devils’, but I think alot of us are learning fast, as painful as it is.

I always said I would never go out with a brute and my ex never said an unkind word to me, to my face, we never argued – but he was a stealth abuser – I never knew about that before, but I know about it now.

Have you seen this ? Sociopath gets his comeuppance in court !!!

It is on u-tube, a video of rosemary shell.

Kat you ask “do you supppose there are traits alike is us victims too”? Yes, I do. I have had various experiences with Ps my entire life. Even after I did realize what they were, that there was a common thread in them “NO CONSCIENCE” I still was DELUSIONAL that the people in my family that I loved could still some way, some how, be fixed—that I could get across to them just how much they hurt me. Hell, Kat, they KNEW, all I was doing was telling them how well they had SUCCEEDED in hurtin gme, because that was their GOAL.

I had to accept that I could not fix them, that they did not love me, and that they would not, could not love me. That there was ONLY ONE way to “fix” the situation and that was to go no contact, to get out. Stay out. Then fix MYSELF so that I would never again become so delusional that I would ignore the RED FLAGS of psychopathic people.

I found I had to learn to set boundaries for EVERYONE, even people I loved. I also found that if those people DID love me, they would respect those boundaries and if they didn’t respect those boundaries, I didn’t want them in my life. NO MATTER IF I GAVE BIRTH TO THEM, OR THEY GAVE BIRTH TO ME. No relationship of blood or anything else was going to make me let anyone run rough shod over me. I have rights. I have dignity and I am going to maintain my own rights and my own dignity. It is only when I give away the POWER to them that I am in danger. As long as I maintain that power over myself, no one will hurt me. It is only when I allow them to CONTINUE to turn me that I have given away my power.

Even now, I could be fooled ONCE by someone. But I won’t be fooled a second time. Trust is earned. Once it is betrayed, I am not going to give someone a second chance. Much less a third and a hundreth or a thousandth chance to “change” to show respect, honesty and caring. Lie to me once and you are out O*U*T of my trust zone. I may still be “nice” when I meet you, I may still be a good neighbor to you, but I will never ever trust you again. If you want my trust in the future you will have to EARN that trust by showing true repentence.

I will and I feel I MUST forgive them (get the bitterness out of my heart for what they have done) but TRUST does not go along with forgiveness automatically.

I’ve been a slow learner in the Psychopathic classes, but now that I have started to “see the light” I know that I must keep on learning, or I will have to repeat the class again and I sure don’t want to do that! LOL

Dear LovingAnnie, I just watched that short film you suggested, but the viewers comments underneath are very revealing of peoples’ attitudes!!

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