By | March 23, 2008 117 Comments

After the Sociopath is gone: The gift of unconditional love

A couple of months ago I had emergency surgery to remove my gallbladder. I’d been feeling discomfort for some time, but put it down to what I was eating, or simply the fact there was a lot of flu going around. And then, one Saturday morning I awoke to excruciating pain in my abdomen. I’d been having little mini-attacks off and on since Christmas, but they had only lasted a few minutes and once gone, could be ignored and even forgotten. But that last attack simply would not stop. My daughter called an ambulance and once in the hospital they told me I needed to have my gallbladder removed immediately.

After the surgery, I still wasn’t feeling up to par. I was constantly nauseous and tired. I told myself, it’s just the after-effect of the surgery. My body is ridding itself of the anesthesia and the gas they used to aid in the surgery. And then, one week after the surgery, I had another attack, this time, without a gallbladder to cause the pain.

Back in hospital, they told me there were still stones in my digestive track. Through another procedure, they divested me of as many stones as possible, and to ensure any remaining stones left my body without getting stuck in a duct, they inserted two stents at the opening to my pancreas.

I thought I’d feel better immediately, but I still felt lousy. Nauseous. Uncomfortable. Tired. After three weeks, they removed the stents and one day after the surgery, I awoke and it was like magic. I felt energized. Like my old self again!

I mention that process because it was so like what happened to me while I was with the sociopath. At first, I didn’t notice the little anxiety attacks that kept undermining my peace of mind. I didn’t notice the ebbing out of my energy, the sucking away of my calm.

As the relationship progressed from its early beginnings of ”˜perfect love’ into the terror and horror of that imperfect lie in the name of love, I began to feel continuously out of sorts. Constantly tired, and sore. At one point, every muscle in my body ached, every joint pained me. Getting out of bed in the morning was a process of rolling slowly onto my side, easing my aching body over the edge of the bed and onto the floor so that I could slowly, painfully straighten up and begin a careful walk towards the bathroom. When I walked with my dog, my fists were clenched by my sides and no amount of concentration would keep them unclenched. In my chest, there was a constant, knife-like pain that wouldn’t ebb. Breathing deeply was next to impossible, and breathing freely a distant memory long forgotten.

I told myself, it’s just a flu-bug. It’s part of ageing. It’s stress. It’s anything but a reaction to the excruciating horror of living with his evil machinations undermining my well-being.

To cope, to keep myself sane within the context of that relationship, I began to amputate more and more of my emotional self. No matter what feeling I let go of, however, errant wafts of pain would trouble my mind like phantom limbs reminding an amputee of all he’d lost. As I tumbled further and further into hell, I thought my body was rejecting me, not because of the sociopath, but rather, because I was not ‘doing it right’, not ‘being enough’ for him. If only I could be more perfect. Be more flexible. More loving. More caring. Furiously I attempted to amputate everything about me until I had left to cling to was the lie of the ”˜love’ he fed me through every weave and warp of his deceit. Without relief from the constant diet of terror that was my life with him, I began to feel like my entire being was being eaten away, cell by cell, by some mysterious, unknown disease.

I didn’t know what was wrong with me. I didn’t dare go to a doctor. He’d told me any attempt to seek medical help would only make the mess I’d created in his life greater. Hearing only his voice roaring in my head, I lost my ability to discern between what made sense and what was sheer stupidity. I needed help but didn’t dare reach out for it, except through him.

I never once connected my unease to his discord. I never once acknowledged that he was the cancer eating away at my peace of mind. That was a truth that was too terrifying to face and so I turned inward, futilely attempting to cauterize the continuous bleeding away of my life-force by stilling the voice of reason buried deep within my mind.

And then he was removed by the police and I awoke to the devastation of my life.

At first, I didn’t want to look at what had happened to me. I wanted to hide my head in shame and sorrow, to chastise myself for having been so stupid, so blind, so naïve. But heaping self-denigration and blame upon myself would only have continued his abuse. Just as trying to make sense of his nonsense would only have kept his abuse alive in my life, I had to learn to turn up for me in all my wounded parts without judging myself for falling to pieces. I had to begin the process of putting my humpty, dumpty self together again with tender loving care.

I had to face the truth. I had been abused. Duped. Lied to. Deceived. Manipulated. Destroyed by the man who had promised to love me ”˜til death do us part, and who had then proceeded to spin the deadly web of his deceit into my demise.

I had to learn to love myself, exactly as I was. Tto ease my pain and sorrow, woundedness and terror, I had to learn to be at peace with where I was, to accept what I had done, and to forgive myself for having gone so far from where I’d meant to be.

In acknowledging that in loving him I had given up on me, I began to heal. Within two days of his arrest, my joints quit hurting. When I walked, my hands hung comfortably by my sides. The pain in my chest evaporated. In facing the horrible truth of what had happened to me, I began to claim the emotions I had so furiously amputated in my desperate desire to pretend that what he was doing was all about love.

What he did had nothing to do with love. And what I was doing while with him had nothing to do with love either. It had everything to do with abuse.

Since being freed from that relationship almost five years ago, I have learned to turn up for me, no matter where I am, or how I’m feeling. I have learned to love myself, warts and all and to embrace the truth of who I am, even when I feel like hiding from myself.

Today I know the truth and celebrate it every moment of every day. I am a woman of worth. A woman worthy of loving herself for all she’s worth, with all she’s got. In loving myself, no matter my condition, I have given myself the gift I’ve always searched for, unconditional love.

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I am ashamed to say that at this moment I am speaking with my S and listening to everything that is being said. Do I believe it….no but I guess I still need to hear it…Why can’t I just be like NO GET OUT OF MY LIFE….We are making plans for me to come visit him for the first time to his state. (he always came here) But he wants to prove that things aren’t the way they’ve been told to me. I am excited to go but at the same time I don’t think it will really happen…I think that something will come up. I know I am being foolish for even going…once again I am allowing him to take control of me, of my emotions. WHY?????? and why am I asking why and can’t answer that for myself….

I just want everyone on here to know that I am so blessed to have found this site….I know your thinking….well then why are u still talking to him….but its nice to know that I can make that mistake and come back here crying and no one will judge me….My friends, my family I know they love me….but they just don’t understand….!!! its hard to explain to them to withdraw u feel…like it was a drug fed to you for the length of your relationship and then just taken away from you….

I hope all here are doing well tonight and wish everyone a blessed Easter….(a new beginning) ((((hugs))))

You sound as if you feel compelled,out-of-control, drawn to him.

You’re not. You can say no. Thsi Easter can truly be different for you. But it’s up to you. And yes we won’t judge you, but we will remind you…you won’t get love where you are going. STDs, broken heart and soul- despair and dumped….

I know it’s hard not to sign up again for that bootcamp, hoping it will change- BUT it won’t.

How is the right man, going to find you while you’re in hiding with a bad man?

Life can be different, better but you have to walk in the right direction. Grit your teeth through the loss and realize you didn’tlose anything –you reinvested in your future an dyour dreams.

You can choose differently.

Ox Drover


You are an adult. YOU can choose how you spend your life and with whom.

I would not be responsible if I told you what you “want to hear” rather than what you need to hear, however, it is your choice what to listen to and what not to.

YOU are NOT compelled to listen to him, you CHOOSE to listen to him…I really think that you KNOW he is a liar, but at this time you are not WILLING to let go of the FANTASY that you know is a FANTASY.

I have been there, I have done that, and everyone (I think without exception) on this list has done the same thing. Sometimes we have done it repeatedly.

It still doesn’t mean it was a wise move, and that we did not hurt ourselves by doing that, that we did not prolong our own suffering, that we did not increase our own suffering by what choices we made. But they were OUR choices, to make, even if they were poor choices we saw in the end.

I do hope that you will chose NOT to do this, for your sake. It will not effect me one way or the other, or anyone else here on this site, but at the same time, none of us enjoy seeing another person continue their own pain, their own delusion, their own destruction.

I hope before you actually do this thing that you will reconsider, but do know that it is your choice, and that you do not have an obligation to “please” me or anyone else here.

You DO have healthy options and I hope and pray that you will choose them instead of the unhealthy and painful ones.

newworld view

ox and holy are sooooo right…but even though you know they are right, i hope you are not like me….i needed a true crisis involving police in front of my children to be my “slap in the face” or wake up call…..and to boot, in one of the police reports, one of the male officers wrote that i was noted, as making disparaging remarks to him…my ex…….they have no shame in putting on an act of the poor victim with the police, where we would feel ridiculous not showing our true feelings.and acting like pollyanna at such a time…..hence the police MaN, felt sorry for the crazy one….anyway, i fear you may be too paralyzed to act without some sort of crisis provoking it. the no contact..i know i was…you are addicted to the good feeling from who he pretends to be briefly, but who you know is truly just an actor on a stage…you probably believe that no one can really be evil and that somehow it must be you…some people must hit the depths of despair in order to believe that these creatures do really exist i needed to go through it as it totally goes against anything i was brought up believing, but for some reason God or the universe has allowed these mutations to occur in some beings…an addiction group may help you find the courage…..he is an addiction you must break sincerely

Ox Drover


I agree with newword on the ADDICTION part of it, go back and read Liane’s essay on the bonding chemicals in our brains. YOU can, however, over come these. If you are to ever heal you MUST over come these…but again, it is your choice, your life.

Sometimes it does take a crisis, mine did. I had to be so threatened by my P-son (he had gotten a man to come kill me) that it was only that CRISIS that actually percipitated my start to healing and going NC with everyone who was envolved with or enabling him, or working for his purposes.

Looking back, I realize just HOW MUCH pain I gave myself because I did not go NC and STICK to it, years before. I caused myself 20+ years of agony, and spent untold amounts of energy on a FANTASY, a DELUSION, because I wanted my son to love me…he lied, he lied, he lied and he lied—he . never ever told the truth.

But he told me LIES THAT I WANTED TO BELIEVE. I thinkk in my soul I KNEW they were lies, but I pushed down my good sense, my common sense, because I was more comfortable with the FANTASY than the TRUTH.

BELIEVING LIES, however, DOES HAVE CONSEQUENCES, and if believing the lies is more important (for the addiction fix) than FACING the TRUTH, we cannot stop you, but the consequences are yours. And that is the TRUTH.


Please, don’t go. He’s going to hurt you again. Please…

I would like to thank Ms. Andersen for creating this blog for us. My last encounter with the “P” was devastating. After he tried to hit me with a golf club, he called 911 and told the police that I had a gun. The police responded with full force-3 police cars were dispatched to investigate a woman with a gun. I was humiliated. Eventually, the policemen realized that I was the victim: They took his golf club into custody as evidence.

I’m healing one day at a time. I invested over 60k in his company. Thus, I’m trying to get my money from him. But, I’m cognizant that my money is gone.



I know exactly what you are going through. When we discover we have been the victims of a massive deception, there is so much to assimilate and absorb. My P-husband moved out almost 9 months ago. In that time I have made ugly discovery after ugly discovery until I realize that he was never ever faithful, that he has been with countless–and I do mean countless–other woman, many of whom knew me and have been in my house!

The truth is so horrible and yet I admit I still miss him. I miss the man I thought he was. I mourn the loss of a man I loved so deeply, the man I thought I would spend the rest of my life with, the man I believed to be my soulmate and very best friend.

But my God, how he betrayed me. He was never ever here for me. When we were together he was thinking of somebody else; when we were apart he was with someone else.

He defiled everything I held dear. And he hurt so many people. He hurt our daughter; he hurt my two other children; they loved him more than they did their bio dad.

He hurt my mom, who at the age of 81 has to watch her baby go through so much pain. He hurt my grandson who lived with us for one year. He hurt my granddaughter, he hurt his parents–his mom in particular–he hurt everyone who cared about or counted on him, and yet why is it that when my cell phone rings, my heart still leaps: is it him? And I scamper to my phone; it’s pathetic. I feel sorry for myself as I would a grieving child.

It reminds me of one of my best friends. From the age of five, she was raised in a children’s home. She saw her mom once a month and never felt her mom had abandoned her. She–my friend–used to leave her shoes by the front door of the “house” she lived in, in the hope that doing so would make her mom magically reappear, and all she’d have to do is grab her shoes and go.

In many ways I’m like that little girl, waiting, my shoes by the front door. And like my friend, I’m waiting in vain. The person I love most is never going to come home. He is never coming to get me.

I know that some day I will give up. I’ll pick up those shoes, toss them out and, finally, I’ll put on some others. Different shoes, maybe brand-new shoes, maybe hiking or high-heel or dancing shoes; I can’t imagine what kind yet. I only know that someday I’ll see them and try them on and realize I can walk out that door, quite happily, on my own.


If it walks like a duck, quacks….it ain’t a rooster.

Please go no contact. YOU DO NOT NEED THIS>
Do you want an STD? Cervicalcner is caused by hpv—this joker probably has that and a few more. Gte tested, and get away from him.

He does not love, you know this is not love. The person who holds the door for you, gives you more respect than this PSYCHOPATH.

Please believe in tomorrow- and the future…run,don’t walk away! They do not change, he is a user and liar. This OW is one of many.


Okay….I dont think i will go…!! But now there is more drama…the “other woman” he had been seeing all this time (and claims he no longer sees) sent him and I both an email asking him to stop calling her with a blocked number. She told me alot of stuff about the two of them but ofcourse he is denying it all…But its the same stuff that he tells me about her…so I cant help but believe her. So now he is making me feel guilty again for talking to her again. Said that I promised I would leave her out this time and thanking me for giving him happiness again and then taking it away….Just a major guilt trip….so what would be best to just leave things alone with the no contact from here on out or should I hear what he has to say…I mean could it be she is the one lying…yea–probably not. ugh…..why oh why have i fallen AGAIN…!!!

newworld view

gillian describes the pain ever so clearly…i fear rblue must hit rock bottom first….i HAD to have it blow up in my face before i could even accept it as a possibility that a human could be like that…..i kept saying it was some sort of a bad mix-up (over and over and over and over……….again) it took a true crisis to jolt me out of the hypnotic like state of fantasy……that may be what it will take for you as well……i think it was a double blessing though…because the crisis involving police and detectives and attornies and counselors had me in such a twisted state internally, that if i hadnt had gone through it, i may have been idiotic enough to accept or ask him back?!!!!!!! so i am so grateful for the true breakdown….i NEEDED it…………
my heart goes out for you ox……i could never imagine what it must feel like to have a son seem normal for so many lovely years and then to go through what you have…..i hope one day we will understand more about what causes the switch …is it biological, emotional or sociological or genetic or all of the above sincerely

newworld view

the drama is the vampire feeding again….the only way is to block them both from e mail and phone….the ONLY way….if you can get past the thrill of waiting for an email or phone call that seems to be confirmation that he is still emotionally attached….it is all a fantasy…a fantasy….its not that you arent worth it….its that he is ILL……the narcissist needs you as a supply source for his ego…..dont supply it any more…there is ABSOLUTELY no other way…..that is why i now have a NEW WORLD VIEW AT 53 yo


I will do the no contact thing…..I will take control now…this is going to be a battle i know because he claims he will never let me go. That where ever I go he will find me. But I will be strong and just let things end. I know he is talking with other women…..Im not stupid…the man has more email accounts then i can count on both hands….who needs all those accounts…He is suppose to be transfering down here. I mentioned that on another blog….He put in a transfer to work near me but he is on “medical leave” from that position and working still in his own state because of his “medical condition” that he was suppose to have surgery for last month….NEVER HAPPENED!!!! (the surgery that is) He told the other woman that I have contact with at times that it was to late for the surgery…that he was dying and cried to her to get back into her bed….then was back trying to talk to me again…tells me that they are waiting for his liver to get right before the surgery can take place…but he doesnt sound like he is suffering much…he is out drinking and hanging out with whomever to wee hours of the night. Also sex is a big thing with him….its funny that I am reading all these comments about std’s now….he swears he wont wear a condom with me (I told him we wont have sex again without it) says I am his and there is no way he will wear one. I think he wants someone pregnant so bad so he has more control….I have to get out of this now…(he just called as i am writing this…I DID NOT ANSWER) dang called again…..still wont answer….I will just put my phone on silent….this is what he does…he will call like 20 times…i would change my number AGAIN but I am to embarrassed to have to give yet another new number to family friends jobs and school…..If in time he doesnt stop then i will….but right now…i will just ignore it….thank you so much for the support….just beware…im gonna need u guys now for a lil while….lol

other then this i hope everyone is doing well today!!!!

Ox Drover


I am so relieved that you have taken the HIGH ROAD, and the SAFE road…I do agree that you should make an appointment for STD testing. Even if he knew he had AIDS he would not tell you…there are people on here whose partners KNEW they had AIDS and lied!

Please stay strong, the longer you are away from him the stronger you will become…and if you take even one phone call, and listen to one word, you will be back to square one.

As far as “being ashamed” or “embarassed to” leave another number for your friends, HE IS THE ONE WHO SHOULD BE ASHAMED, but he is NOT.

He has ONLY the control over you that you let him have. He will threaten, leave nasty messages on your machine…BTW, DO NOT listen to them, but just in case they are threats, let someone you trust listen to them, and if they are threats, GO TO THE POLICE. File a report. If he continues to harasss you or threaten, STALKING IS A CRIME>

KEEP SAFE, that is the number one rule. He will bluster and threaten, beg, cry, try the pity party–lots of them, according to posters here cried the “I am dying feel sorry for me” line.

If his liver is in trouble and he drinks, he will only die faster. GOOD! I hope he drinks himself into a grave! (I shouldn’t say that, but the thing is that he isn’t dying—any more than we are, one day at a time) Don’t waste any more of your precious life worrying about him…keep in mind that EVERY WORD HE SAYS IS A LIE, even if part of it is true, because it is meant to trap you, trick you and deceive you. (((hugs))) POST, READ, POST, READ—we will be here.


hi Rblue –
yes, everyone is so right – its time for you to listen to the voice inside you that is telling you the truth. I too, had another woman that he was seeing and lying to me about and I doubted her stories. I had contact with her anytime and I started to wonder if he was lying or she was. He was convincing me she was a terrible person trying to break us up.

In the end, I realized that I do not want a relationship with a man that I have these kind of problems. I finally dont care if he is lying or she is! I asked myself why was I even having to deal with all this chaos at all?? Because he brings chaos with him wherever he goes. All his relationships are full of bull and its time to be DONE with all the mess.

Its hard at first, I know… you ache for your wishes to come true. But you must face the reality of this man and just as it has always been tragic with him, it will continue to be tragic if you keep playing the game with him.

Be strong, keep reading, listen to your intuition and make a decision to stand by your gut feeling no matter how your emotions confuse you. In the end of it all, you will be so much more free and light-hearted. Then life can begin to show you fresh new experiences -without him to bog you down!



If there is another woman in the mix, walk away. You can do nothing else except walk away. My ex, much to my surprise, had someone on the side for a long time. He looked right into my eyes, told me that he loved me again and again and again, that he’d be home in two weeks, and now, it’s a month later from the time he made those statements, and he’s already winnowed his way into someone else’s life to the point where he might go live with her. No kidding! It took this happening to see that this man is just not right. I hope she has plenty of money. She’s going to need it once his paycheck is gone and the bills need to get paid …

For me, that’s all I need to know. It should be all you need to know, too. I know that no contact is hard. I’m doing it, and every now and then I lapse. I have a good idea that he’ll be back in my life soon, for one reason or another, because I know him. Just take care and be safe.



Come on now… how much of you do you want to lose? How much do you have left? He will take every ounce until you run out.

Count yourself lucky that he is in a different state.. and you are correct… most likely your big trip to his town won’t happen. There will be some last minute crisis and he will be so sad that he can’t make it and can he reschedule. NO.

Many victims on this site have to deal with their ex-sociopath as a co-worker, neighbor, stalker… yours lives in a different state. This is a blessing!

Go back and read OxDovers post on the rat and the pellet. You are being the little rat waiting for the pellet. (Of course you are not a rat dear. I am sure you a lovely… but remember the rat.) If you give someone one droplet of water a day, they will die of dehydration. Do you understand?

The happiness he is saying you are giving him is the joy he is having starving you to death. Think of him as a torturer. Aren’t you feeling tortured?

A good loving man is not an addiction. And he won’t want to see your writhing in pain and anguish.

No Contact is more than just a fun catch phrase. It is the only way to come out of the FOG you are in a begin to heal. Each time you talk to him, you are ripping off an anormous scab and bleeding more and more. The more time you give him, the longer it will take to heal.

Change all your contacts. My email addresses have a false name on them so that he can’t look me up on Yahoo. At one point he was harassing me over email… well, actually, that was his gig the whole time but at one point, I got smart and blocked him. He created 20 new accounts to get to me. They are persistent.

It really is safer for you to not read a word he writes. Don’t take the phone calls. File a restraining order. Move if you can. Seriously. You need to create a safety plan to help you get through those moments when you are feeling weak. Keep reading here. It will take you months to read all of this…


Okay, I am so grateful for all of you, you just don’t know. All of your words and stories are just like what he does. He has so many email accounts…. he was on countless number of web sites putting himself out there (ofcourse says he is off of them now) while all along in relationships with others while still looking for more. Come to find out he was invovled with 2 other girls personally and 2 other girls thru email….. But of course now says don’t look at the past….lets build something from now. He is actually hurt with me right now because I responded one of the other girls emails yesterday….said that I am more loyal to her then to him and now is trying to make me feel guilty like I did something wrong. He wants to talk about it…I love him and I told him I love him, but I honestly can’t trust him obviousely!!!! So do I just start now…cold turkey and not talk to him or do I tell him that its over and then start not talking to him?? What would be best?? I just want this confussion out of my life. I sometimes doubt that maybe I am over thinking things….but honestly like someone said in one of the blogs….I have to go with my gut feelings….usually its right…and after reading all the comments here and the similarities of him and these other men….I can’t be wrong in thinking that he is a s. I just have to take the positive step and move from it…..I have to protect my emotions and my sons….!!!! He has so much info on me tho…he even said that I can never get away….He has my ss # from a form he saw….and has some family members phone numbers he got off my phone one day…..But I guess I can’t fret all that stuff and just walk away..Please help me with this next step….should I just start the cold turkery stuff…or should I tell him its over…

have a great day ladies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


If I were you, rblue, I would not call him anymore or reach out to him in any way. He will be calling you – and I would just say “I’ve decided its best we dont continue with this relationship. There are just too many questions in your mind and its wearing you out. Please dont call me anymore ~ I need to focus on myself for awhile.” The End. Dont tell him he is an S. They dont see what they are and never will and you will just end up frustrated trying to explain. He will likely keep calling and trying – but if you can just stick to your guns – he will move on to a more willing victim soon. Just get thru the initial efforts he’ll make and like my S, within 7 weeks of telling him NO – he has a new woman and they are acting like theyve been in love for years.
Hold tight rblue, you can do this! Its only hard for a little while. There is a bright shiny future ahead of this for you!


It really is all about protecting ourselves. I don’t want to hurt me anymore.

It’s awful to think, but it our innocence that compels us tohope ,to try again. Like a lamb to slaughter, I I think I need an electric fence. : )

Ox Drover

Dear Rblue,

Listen to ML–every word she said to you is RIGHT ON.

NO contact is two kinds, the PHYSICAL NO CONTACT, where you don’t see him, don’t call him, don’t take his calls, don’t listen to voice mails, read text messages, NOTHING.

The other kind of NO contact is the EMOTIONAL part, ML calls it NC in your head. That is the most difficult part. It is where you DONT THINK About him in a way that is painful. It is what I call “Emotional NC”

Physical NC is made harder because our emotions beg us to give in.

Thhink of it this way—if your little boy was begging you for something that was POISON, that would kill him if he got it, and he begged and cried and pleaded and threw tantrums and screamed—WOULD YOU EVER GIVE IN AND GIVE IT TO HIM? Of course not—well your “EMOTIONS” may behave the same way as a child not getting what it wants, but YOU must be your OWN “good parent” and Not let the child (inside you) make you give in and give it something that is TOXIC.

Just as a REAL child would eventually quit crying for the toxic substance, so your inner child will eventually calm down as well. In the mean time, be as good a parent to “yourself” as you are to your real children. PROTECT YOUR OWN INNER CHILD.

((((hugs))))) and God bless


The posts here are so factual, and heartwarming, and true that they give me shivers (in a good way). I love the way “Bad Man” by Aloha is being used, and “He is the Lie”. I believe some very positive understanding, and healing, is occurring with some extremely brilliant people. Wow. Thank you all.

Ox Drover

Dear Peggy, OH THANK YOU FOR CALLIING ME BRILLIANT! (Now P does that sound!?! LOL) ha ha

You are so right though, we are becoming WISER and more cautions, and I think in my case, I am finally learning to protect myself.

I thought about something today that I don’t think about on a regular basis, but got to thinking deeply about it today.

When I was in second grade, I attended a small rural school in Eastern Oklahoma where my step dad taught in the high school. My teacher was a family friend.

Every day a girl in my class would beat the crap out of me, but I felt ashamed that she did and I kept it a secret until she finally broke my jaw with a coke bottle and I could no longer hide my “shame.” or the abuse.

What was it that made me, even at that young age, never having been around other kids who were bullies submit to the physical beatings she gave me daily and NOT TELL A SOUL, and to feel ASHAMED that I was being beaten?

After the incident with the coke bottle, my teacher and my step dad comforted me, and they even went on to not only stop the bullying but to explain to me that this child, who was the 22nd child of one set of parents (several sets of twins) and who lived in utter abject poverty was simply taking her frustration at her home life out on me. The little girl finally actually became “friends” with me and stopped hitting me and other kids.

Since I had started to school very young I was 1 to 1-1/2 years younger and much smaller than the other kids in my class, and also I think because I didn’t have any siblings to “argue with” or “fight with” at home I hadn’t learned that other k ids could be cruel. But WHY was I ashamed that she did these things? Puzzles me.

It is obvious to me that whatever made me a “victim” was there from an early age, and at that time in my life, as far as I can recall, I had had a pretty “nice” upbringing. I wasn’t spanked but a time or two in my life and for very serious offenses then, like running across the highway to play with the neighbor kids when I knew that was not allowed. And that “spanking” was certainlly not a beating by any means!

It is obvious to me now why that girl PICKED ME out of all the other kids i n the class to “beat up on” because I was smaller, younger, and totally unskilled in “fighting back” but I still can’t figure out why I felt ashamed that SHE BEAT ME. Food for thought, and just a musing but does make me wonder.



I had similar encounters in school when I was a child. I don’t think that I necessarily sought out any kind of bullying, but I was bullied, and when I was I never told a soul about it. Tattling seemed babyish, but I was an only child, and I really did not have a lot of “fighting” skills that those with siblings seemed to have. Maybe something about me screamed “victim,” but more likely something about me alluded to the fact that I could easily become a victim in the right circumstances. Who knows how these things work and what really shapes us? I don’t know for sure, to be honest.


~~~UHG~~~ I just told my mother that I have decided to leave him alone again….of course I got that yea…whatever!!! I don’t understand you…you are crazy..!!!!!!! I just told her I had to go..I just don’t feel like hearing that…its depressing enough that I feel crazy, I don’t need someone else…especially my mother that I am..Don’t get me wrong..she is a wonderful mother…We are just two different people is all….
I can’t believe that today my S talked me into sending the other woman a note to tell her to leave him and I alone so that we can work things out. He demanded that I tell her that I loved him. I emailed a simple note just to ease the issue a bit….but will not contact either again..(hopefully)!! But it amazes me that he was texting me…calling me and so forth to do it…once I did…NOTHING… call back…no email back and I sent it to him as well and her response so that he could see what was sad…..but its like he just wanted to have control over me and purposely hurt her…I dont like doing that. even if someone is not nice to me I would just rather walk away then hurt them on purpose. He made me feel guilty into doing it.

Ox im so sorry about your dealings in school…its amazing how we react to things….!! Why should u have felt ashamed of something that was being done to you…its like how we all feel here…!!! ~~ugh~~

Ox Drover

I’m glad that many grade schools are working on stopping bully behavior in the classroom and the play ground. It is a step for sure in not training these bullies or their victims at an early age.

I think the “not telling” about being bullied is part of the victimization process in myself and others as well.

When my kids were little I tried to get across the difference in “tattling” (Johnny called me a Doo doo) and TELLING (JOhnny is playing with matches) I think I succeeded when they were little as they did tell me the dangerous things other children were doing, but stopped the tattling.

Ox Drover


I don’t know why I felt ashamed, it was just the feeling I had.

Rblue, the NC (NO contact) means NO contact, it has to be 100%. No response to any email, text or anything else he sends you. DON’T EVEN READ THEM OR LISTEN.

I’m sorry that our mother didn’t seem to understand, but the thing is that VERY FEW people who have not had the P-experience will understand. That is why it is important for you to post and read here where WE have ALL had this same experince and DO understand. Most people, and even some professionals that we would hope would understand this P devestation just don’t “get it.” They just think it is like a “regular break up” and it is NOT, it is 1000 times worse.

Do the NO contact–I know it is hard. I kept responding to my P-son’s pleas his letters, and his LIES. I wanted to tell him, make him SEE and they are BLIND EMOTIONALLY except for what THEY WANT—they want you to believe their lies.

Take one minute at a time if you have to but DO NOT listen to him. DO NOT respond. Post back here if you have to, but not to him. (((hugs)))) He loves having you and her “fight” over him. I bet later down the road when you stay NC from him, he will have her write YOU a letter.

righteous woman

rblue: when I used to voice the end of the relationship to my mom, I always received a less than supportive reply, which in turn, made me want to prove her wrong…It was a twisted thought process because my emotions were mush.

I am the kind of person..that when I give something up, I have to do it on my own without looking for praise from the people around me. Quit smoking, kept it to myself. Started a weight loss plan, kept it to myself (and they watched the pounds fall off). So many people are so quick to give their criticisms, instead of support. Here in cyber-blog have support, and we understand what you are going through.

If I sent a note like that…it would have been used against me to show how crazy I am….I have had recent communication with the S, and I was trying to reason with him. Our son will be 18, and if the S wants to stay out of jail, he needs to pay me every month. He plead guilty to contempt of the child support order and he was placed on probation for a year. Which to me, means I will get a years worth of money…not the 40k he owes me. So, he was trying and trying to provoke me..and in response I told him that we don’t have any reason to communicate really. We are not trying to preserve a relationship, we are not working towards better communication…I have accepted that it is over, and it is my desire that he accept the same, because we are not enriching EACH others lives. He said he wouldn’t agree to it, that he wanted to keep his options open for us to get back together and work on it. Then he told me I was fat, and when I lost weight, he would crave me every day…and he couldn’t see being with me now(do you see how he turned that on me? devalued me? wanted me to continue an argument so he could make me see it his way?)…..So I told him, even though he insulted me, I wasn’t mad, but that his only means to contact me would be to call, and really, we would keep things to the best interest of his son, and I would always work with him where our son was concerned, but we were over.

I have known him for 23-years. He tells everyone that he hates me and that I am obsessed with him. If he calls the after affect and rumination following the damage he inflicted obsession, than I guess, in his twisted logic, he is right.

If it wasn’t for our son, he would be long gone. I thought he was going to leave me alone when I was pregnant, but he didn’t. And then blamed me for his presence for the next 18-years.

After this communication I had, it re instilled in my mind, that an S can not be reasoned with. There are no comprimises. There is no acceptance of what is best for all parties. Only what is best for him. Everyone is a pawn. I hope you view this as words of strength…Don’t be his pawn.



Lookup “triangulation” on the internet and how it works for S’s and P’s. They LOVE the kind of three-sided relationships, with one or both partners unknown to the other.

You know, if I had a life like that, I’d always be worried about hurting someone else, getting caught, spreading disease, shaming my family…but P’s love three-sided relationships.

When I first was catching on to my P, I pretended to start dating someone else behind his back. He already was, so why shouldn’t I? It turned out he was talking to his ex-gf the entire time he was seeing me (and who knows how many others he was seeing/trying to see). But when we first started talking, he said they hadn’t talked for quite awhile. Then she called and he “accidently” had it on speaker phone. He also said “I never said that!” when I reminded of his statement that they were no longer speaking.

Anyway, unable to give up the “relationship” at the time even though it was demeaning and a fraud, I tried to be demeaning and a fraud back at him! How incredibly STUPID is that?!? Should’ve just told him to hit the road. So embarrassing, all of that, to me now. I’d been worn down into some weird echo of him.

Point is, even my ‘fake’ relationship made me feel guilty. Never went out on a date with this guy, just exchanged a few emails, and yet….guilt out the wazoo.

Normal people don’t keep their ex’s or other women all hanging around. One or two friends, maybe, but not someone who “left” them or “hurt” them, and who they lied about.

NO CONTACT. He’s clearly an ass.

Ox Drover

Right now, I am watching my son C (the NON-P one) go through the acknowledgment that his now X-wife (thank you God!) is a P.

They were married almost 8 years. I didn’t realize it because he kept his “cards” close to his chest, but during most of that time she was abusing him at least emotionally and tried to hit him and threw things, etc. but he was determined to “make the best” of the situation and was committed to the relationship to the bitter end “for better or worse.”

After her and her P-BF’s attempt to kill him (they intended to make it look like “self defense” after he had found out about the affair) even though he had told her that he wanted to go to counseling with her and somehow work out the relationship after her affair. She pretended to want this as well, expressed her SINCERE (not!) remorse etc. all the while she was stalling for time until she and her BF could transfer money out of a trust account that my mother had been persuaded to put money in “safe keeping”–and she bought her BF (who was an ex con which she knew) a gun, and herself a gun as well.

After their attempt to kill my son failed (he got through to 911) and she and her BF were arrested, it was months before my son could admit that SHE was personality disordered, not just “influenced” by her lover. That SHE was the one that wanted him dead.

The divorce is final and the only contact that they NEED to have is through my other son D who is talking to her (there is a restraining order to keep her away from me, my son C, and my mom) so that my son C and she can file taxes jointly for 2007 which is advantageous to them both.

The X-DIL-P told my son D the other day that she would like to PUNISH my son C by not filing with him, but since it was advantageous to her, she would go ahead and do it. WTF?

SHE wants to punish HIM? She is the one that had the affair, she is the one that tried to kill him, she is the one that stole money from his grandmother…and SHE wants to punish him for WHAT?!!!??? Soooooo typical P behavior. But I am in a way glad SO GLAD that she is continuing to do this kind of thing because it is helping him to SEE that her “remorse” is FAKE and that her behavior is still DISORDERED, P-behavior right down the line!

IN a way I think the MORE crap they pull, the easier it is for us to ACCEPT that the assessment of them as a P is on target. BUT until we get out of the day-to-day living with them, dealing with them, it seems that NO matter HOW outrageous their behavior is we try to “swallow” it–but a little time and distance and NC makes things so much more clear that we can SEE how pathetic they are, how they try to manuver, to regain the power over us that they had—but after you have taken back your power—their antics are almost pathetic, pitiful, like they are “writhing in pain over the fire of NC” and they cannot stand it. If there is any way to punish them, to make them hurt, to show them “what it feels like” it is take their POWER AWAY. Frustrates them no end. Puts them on the receiving end of the misery, and it is so EASY to do after you first get the “hang of it”—just DON’T RESPOND.

If nothing else, I have the satisfaction of letting them Know that I NOW HAVE MY OWN POWER BACK—there is nothing that they can do to me, say to me, or thinkk about me that will ever again make me hurt. They can’t hurt me any more! They took their best shot and lost, and now I am IN CONTROL of myself again.



I am sorry for you that have to watch your son be a victim of this insane world that S and P’s run. I am sure that he is a sweet and caring guy if he put up with it for so long, and to fall under it in the first place. I am sure that having you there for support is helpful though. I don’t even know you and I have found your support amazingly helpful throughout this site. Thank you again for that. Its strange how God works putting a victim and a P in the mix of your family, you seem well equipped and informed to deal with both of them though.

I found your second to last paragraph to be just the medicine I needed right now. I have been opening e-mails from him, even though I am NC because I have been nervous about him showing up at my apartment building. He lives a few hours away but he showed up a few weeks ago and I had to hide out at a friends for a while. Earlier in the posts here someone admitted that they still check the phone repeatedly, and I have to say that I am guilty of that.

I can see right through all his manipulation tactics now. I don’t want to be with him anymore, but I still feel like I can’t stop thinking about it. The latest e-mail said “this is not a pattern” employing words I used when I broke things off. “I am sorry I lied but I felt trapped”… you mean CAUGHT. “I didn’t lie about anything else”…HE LIED ABOUT EVERYTHING! It makes me furious! I just want to scream at him… I CAN SEE RIGHT THROUGH YOU!

Reading everyone else’s posts made me feel sane again…. I need that lately.

Rblue, stay strong! you can do this!!


Ox Drover


Thank you, I am glad that I can help some one else by what I have learned.

yes, it is difficult to see someone you love suffer, and I tend to want to be an “enabler” anyway, and take his pain onto myself, but HE has to go through it, resolve it for himself, it is not something I can put a band aid on and kiss the boo-boo away. He is a man, an adult, and all I can do is be here for support if he needs me and comes to me.

I think too, that seeing his brother FINALLY as a P, and what a P is, is helping him see his X-wife too as a P. Up until now she has denied, denied and apologized etc. and he doesn’t want to believe that he has “wasted” 8 years with a woman who was a fake from the beginning—though there is no doubt of that at all.

I read an article last night on ROMEO BLEEDS (part 5) that talked about a male BDP (but could be either sex or a P either as all thatover laps) about how they get you to PITY THEM, and want to “take care of them” and “help” them, etc. and she did JUST THAT. She had a son in a wheel chair and she needed HELP…my son, good hearted guy that he is, fell for all that pity play. He has grown up with a close friend in a wheel chair so the kid in a wheel chair was not a put off for him when he married her—met her on the inter net BTW.

She was looking for a meal ticket to support her and her 2 kids. She found one. Just like it is difficult for US ALL to realize we have BEEN SO DAMNED STUPID in falling for them, when their ploy was SO OBVIOUS (now, in retrospect) it is difficult to ADMIT to yourself, much less your family, how you were CONNED. No one wants to believe about themselves that someone else could PULL THE WOOL OVER YOUR EYES so easily. I sure didn’t. But you know, until I DID ADMIT that, that I was CONNED, and easily conned at that, I couldn’t start to heal.

The NO contact…no reading letters, e mails, listening to voice messages, or anything else is the only way to get them out of your head. At first, that was SOOOOOOO hard for me. I just wanted to TELL THEM OFF ONE LAST TIME, and then another LAST time, and so on. I had to practically physically restrain myself from contact of any kind.

It took weeks, months, before I realized that it is the ONLY way. Physical no contact is the first part, but the EMOTIONAL NO CONTACT–where you NO LONGER WANT TO hear from them, or wonder about them, or worry about them, or fantasize that you could have done anything differently to have made a difference.

I can think about my P-son, my P-bio-father and my enabling mother (NC as well) now without wanting to tell them what I think of them. It wouldn’t change anything if I told them, just upset me and land on deaf ears with them. I think when I reached that point, it was the TURNING point for me.

When the entire family went NC with my P-son in prison, he wrote everyone begging for letters, pleading for information about what was going on so HE COULD FIX IT—Laugh! He then started writing others to get them to call my mom and find out if “she was okay” (at that time she was willingly NC with him) and when the phone would ring and someone wold identify themselves as a friend of Ps and ask how she was, she would say “I”m fine.” CLICK.

Then P son wrote a 10 page diatribe to a minister friend of ours talking about how we were so UN-Christian that we would not give him UN-conditional love. DUH!

It was so funny, too, because we had the letters he had written to his Trojan-Horse P full of plots, curses, bragging about how bad his crimes were—etc. and the ones that came to us were all about “what would Jesus do?” LOL So it made it easy enough for us to see he was WRITHING over the coals of NC…powerless to do anything because we would not communicate.

Of course after her anger died down, my mother started sending him money again–the poor baby in prison without any funds to make his life better–PUKE! But my other son told her that if she did it he would NC her as well, and since he is the only relative she has outside of prison, she is pretty much compelled to comply and stop sending money to my P son. She did the second time and lied and got caught doing it, so I hope that she won’t pull that crap again, or she will be totally NC to every relative she has in the world.

I actually was surprised that my son was so supportive about me going NC with my mother. (since I am her only child) He is “handling her” and she will listen to him. I occasionally have to talk to her about business as our funds are both tied up in a family trust of which she and I are co-trustees, but I confine it TOTALLY to business, and most things I handle through my son C. If I have to send papers back and forth it is either through the mail or my adopted son D picks them up. She doesn’t consider my adopted son as important to her or as her grandson. (“he’s not blood”)

Finally Free, the “stalking” is illegal and you can file a restraining order if you want to or need to. Keep in mind though if he is violent that it won’t stop bullets. If he isn’t violent it might give him the indication that you are SERIOUS though.

Showbird: Good for you! Sounds like you are in a good place!



I have seen references to P son, and C and D sons. Is the P son A or B? And then who is missing? How many children do you have? (I’m trying to piece together your story and the characters). :>)

After all that you put me through,
You think I’d despise you,
But in the end I wanna thank you,
‘Cause you’ve made me that much stronger

Well I thought I knew you, thinkin’ that you were true
Guess I, I couldnt trust called your bluff time is up
Cause I’ve had enough
You were there by my side, always down for the ride
But your joy ride just came down in flames cause your greed sold me out in shame

After all of the stealing and cheating you probably think that I hold resentment for you
But uh uh, oh no, you’re wrong
Cause if it wasnt for all that you tried to do, I wouldnt know
Just how capable I am to pull through
So I wanna say thank you
Cause it
Makes me that much stonger
Makes me work a little bit harder
It makes me that much wiser
So htanks for making me a fighter
Made me learn a little bit faster
Made mys kin a little bit thicker
Makes me that much smarter
So thanks fo rmakin me a fighter

Never saw it coming, all of your backstgabbing
Just so you could cash in on a good thing before I’d realize your game
I heard you’re goin round play, the victim now
But dont even begin feeling I’m the one to blame
Cause you dug your own grave
After all of the fights and the lies cause you’re wanting to haunt me
But that wont work anymore, no more,
It’s over
Cause if it wanst for all of your torture
I wouldnt know how to be this way now and never back down
So I wanna say thank you
Cause it
How could this man I thought I knew
Turn out to be unjust so cruel
Could only see the good inyou
Pretend not to know the truth
You tried to hide your lies, disguise yourself
Through living in denial
But in the end you’ll see

I am a fighter and I
I aint gonna stop
There is no turning back
I’ve had enough


You thought i would forget
But I remembered
Cause i remembered
I remembered
You thought i would forget
I remembered
Cause i remembered
I remembered


Ox Drover

Thank you Showbird, great lyrics.

Peggy, I have two biological sons from my first marriage, the P-son (whose initial also happens to be P) age 37, in prison since age 17 except for a few months out between three felony convictions. Both of his biological grandfathers were Ps. One very violent, and the other just extremely malicious and controlling.

My oldest son is C (his initial) he was the one married to the P-DIL for 8 yrs. His first marriage her 3rd I think. He is ADHD but has overcome most of the things that plague people with this condition well into adulthood.

I also have an adopted son D, age 30, who lives with and works for me.

My mom is a TOXIC enabler, her brother was a flaming P who should have done life without parole.

My mom married very young to my P-bio father, and divorced him when I was 3 months old (he was in the army hospital with an STD which he tried to convince her he caught off a toilet seat!)

She married my step father when I was 3. He died 6 months after my late husband. Great guy!

I married my late husband in 1986, after knowing him since I was a teenager. We had a great marriage and a great friendship. He died in a plane crash here at our little farm and airport when a student pilot messed up on take off. My adopted son D was also in the crash and was severely burned.

I grew up not really knowing, but knowing quite a bit about my P-bio father. I was close to his father, a great guy, and several of his sibs, also nice people. His first cousins, all, again, great folks, and I are still close and keep in frequent contact. I am glad that I got to know my P-bio father’s family.

I got interested in genealogy when I was a kid following the old folks around and listening to their stories of “great uncle Fred” and did a genealogical search for many years, it was quite fun, and fortunately I was able to get medical histories on many of these people and other details about their lives, not just their names—after I got to studying about Ps, I realized that some of these “life stories’ about these people showed that they too were Ps, or Ns, or some combination of the above. My P father’s mother was obviously an N and most likely a P…she was universally hated by everyone who knew her and that included her husband who said “I offered her half of my assets for a divorce 3 days after I married her. The biggest mistake of my life was staying with her for the sake of the kids.” Though she died before I was born and my grandfather died when I was in high school, I was able to interview several people who knew her and were very forthright with their stories about her. She must have been some piece of work. LOL

I found some other P stuff on my mother’ side going back to before 1840. A court case over custody of a child in which there were 287 pages of hand written “dirt” from the testimony of various witnesses. My ancestor was accused by witnesses of tying a slave woman up by her toes and whipping her, and his passing out drunk on numerous occasions, and puking on a neighbor’s floor etc. Fights with his wife, etc. pretty well give me an idea he wasn’t a nice guy!

All of the men in my line of descent from him have been violent alcoholics and abusers of their wives and family. Including my mother’s brother. There were also some lateral murder-suicides and much alcoholism in most of the branches of this family.

I also started looking at mental illnesses of much significance in both sides of my family tree. Some of them were difficult to diagnose at a distance with only a sketchy history but some were fairly obvious and could be narrowed down to psychosis of some sort, out of touch with reality. Others had a pretty good oral history that went along with them and let me later get a pretty good idea of what was going on.

All very interesting to me, especially since I have worked with animal genetics and training both professionally and as an avocation. Since there is a medical school here in Arkansas which happens to be where I graduated from as a registered nurse practitioner, I have access to some of the research done there and can check books out of the library there. I have also worked professionally in psychiatric settings for some of my career, including an 18 month stint with “conduct disorder” children in an inpatient setting.

It is amazing to me that with the training and knowledge that I had it has taken me this long to get my own “stuff” straight and get my own crap “into one sock.” It wasn’t for lack of knowledge, it was in someways I think willful blindness.

“There is none so blind as he who will not see.”

I think I developed some way the most tenacious system of denial that I can imagine a person having and still be considered “sane.”

Having finally opened my eyes to my own denial and accepted this in myself without beating myself up for it–and boy did I do that—I can accept the fact that though I “wasted” a lot of years coming to this point in my life, they weren’t really “wasted” at all if they eventually taught me to love myself, to care for myself first. Life is a journey, not a destination, and we all learn things as we journey, it just takes some of us (like me) longer to “get it” than it does others.

Reading Dr. Viktor Frankl’s “Man’s Search for Meaning” about his emotional experiences while in the Nazi concentration camps in WWII has been very therapeutic for me, as well as “Rapid Eye movement” therapy to help me over come the PTSD of the airplane crash, and also of the emotional trauma from my life with my Ps. So, no, all those years were not wasted…Dr. Frankl helped me to see that there is MEANING in suffering, there are lessons in adversity, and that we need to find those in order to grow, to keep from becoming bitter and staying that way. “A good life is the best revenge.” That’s what I want for myself and my two remaining sons.

I realize I can’t have that if I am emotionally bound to m P-son, and my toxic enabling mother. I can’t fix her with logic any more than anyone could have fixed me, except me. We hang on to our delusions as long as the are necessary to keep us from having to face a truth that is too painful for us to accept at that time. There are some truths that are so painful to accept that we hold on to the denial in an effort to force down the pain that we don’t want to face. But in the end, I think facing the pain, no matter how painful it is, is the easier of the choices to accept or to deny.

While I may wish I had faced things earlier in my life so that I could have had more “pain free” years, I realize that I wasn’t ready to do that then, and only when the pain caused by denial itself got so brutal that I had to face it or die, was I willing to take off the rosy glasses and face life with courage.

Everyone on this blog has had some of the same experiences I have had, that you have had, and we can relate to each other, and encourage each other, because we do KNOW that pain of being in denial, the anxiety, the frantic writhing in the pain of accepting reality as it is, not as we want it to be.

I don’t ever want to go back to blindness now that my eyes are open. It is just too dark and scary there. I’d rather know what I am facing, and see it than to wonder what will hit me out of the darkness next.



Thank you so much for clarifying it for me! I have read bits and pieces of your story on many different blogs, but it was wonderful to have all the puzzle pieces fit together. Wow. Some amazing stuff with your family…you certainly haven’t had a boring life! I am so happy for you, that you have overcome many obstacles and still have a radiant, sweet and shining spirit and are so willing to help others.



Since you have studied the P/S/N phenomena, have raised a P child, and have a lot of history of P/S/N’s in your family (as well as your background as a Nurse Practitioner), i have two questions:

1. What are the identifying traits/characteristics in CHILDREN who are P/S/N? I have concerns regarding my ex-S’s granddaughter who has exhibited some behaviors that seem unusual to me.

2. Do you believe a child is treatable with medication or counseling (I have read past the age of 15 or 18 they are not ‘fixable’)? In other words, IYHO, is there any hope for a child who’s brain is wired to be a P/S/N? Is it purely genetic, or are there social factors that can mitigate, reduce, or stop it?

I understand that you are not an expert, I am merely asking for your opinion.

Ox Drover

Peggy, I wish I was qualified to answer those questions–with anything except “it depends.”

The traits I have seen in children who are labeled “conduct disorder” are pretty much what you would imagine your p might have been as a child. Some of them “act out” and are definant, don’t seem to fear punishment, are highly attention seeking in any manner. Don’t seem to have any empathy.

A person cannot be “officially” labeled a P/S etc until after 18, and they must have had “P-ish” behvior before 18.

As far as ‘treatable”?–again, I think it “depends.” I have not seen any long term benefit to any of the patients I have known who were treated. You could control them for short periods of time, but I am not sure that we didn’t just teach them to be a bit more cunning with their manipulations.Some of these younger kids with conduct disorder seem also to be ADHD, but I h ave also worked with ADHD kids that were not violent, definant, or destructive–I raised one who is a great human being. He was a challenge to raise, but he was never out of control. He never defied me or tried to hurt anything or any one. When he was 6 or 7 he and his brother used to fight some, but no more than the “normal” amount of squabbling that kids do, and when I realized that his P brother was “provoking him” no end, I put a stop to that too, so the fights with his brother topped by 2nd grade.

I did not see that any of them gained any insight into their own behaviors or seemed to care for others any more.

I don’t think anything in personality development is PURELY genetic, I think that environment plays SOME part in all of us. Otherwise identical twins would be totally alike in everything, and that is not the case, BUT they tend to have a very similar personality. I think I remember from somewhere that in identical twins raised apart, that there is something like an 80% correlationship between if one is a P the other is also, but at the same time, is the one that is NOT a P “normal” or just doesn’t go high enough up the scale to officially qualify? So even the statistics aren’t totally a good picture of it.

Other kids, like my P-son were not obviously any problem til they hit adolescence–though looking back I can see one instance of him stealing at age 11 where he DENIED it in the face of totally “being caught” red handed. He was defiant about it afterwards too, and totally ENRAGED at being punished. He ran away from home, and when caught and brought back looked me in the eye and said “you can’t watch me night and day, I will do it again.”

He was right, I couldn’t, but he seemed to get over the rage and become the child I thought I knew again until the hormones hit him and he morphed back to a rage-filled definant lying Psychopath who was determined that NO ONE would control him.

If I had a family genetic history of psychopathic behavior of if the child’s father was a P, I would be concerned about my child just as Liane is. I would do everything I could to give the kid a good chance at leading a good life. I would do my best to teach the child a moral compass, to teach them empathy and compassion—but like all people, no matter how you are raised, you make your own decisions on how you act.

I know people who were violently abused as children who have become fine and caring adults.

Other people who were NOT abused as children and they have become adult monsters.

Neither raising children nor dog training is an EXACT sicience. It depends on the genetics of the particular dog/child, and also upon your skill in giving them what they need to improve their own natural talents aned over come their own natural faults. There are some good guidelines but no “recipie book” and we just do the best we can with what we have to give and hope that some of it sticks.

I cna’t look back at my own parenting and say “well if I had done x instead of Y my son wouldn’t be a P” Who knows, I think he would probably have been a P but he might be a more “successful” one–maybe in the White House instead of the BIG House! But I do think he would have still had some problems with empathy–who knows maybe he would have been Governor of New York. LOL

Read some of Liane’s writings. She is more hopeful than I tend to be about overcoming Genetics with nurture, but I don’t know that she is necessarily wrong and I am right in being more pessimistic. At least she still has HOPE for her child whose father is a P, and I would have hope for mine if I hadn’t seen evidence that that hope was a dream. So far, she hasn’t seen that hope shattered and I pray that she never does. But I think she will know how to deal with it if it does.


Thanks, Oxdrover, I appreciate your insights. The little girl is not yet six, but has the “blank” look, when she was 3 I didn’t hear her speak (although it was said she did), she’d look at you and run (and I’m not scary looking). If you are heading towards a chair, she will intentionally and purposely run to it and sit there so you cannot. She is also having behavorial problems at school. I had asked the S at one point if she was autistic as something was just different or “off” about her, but he said no.

I will read some of Liane’s writings, thanks. And stay away from the snakes…human and reptile alike!

Ox Drover

I had read somewhere previously about what you had said about this child…her behavior doesn’t sound great, but not too bad either–she just might be starved for attention. If she is related to the P she might not be getting much positive attention and negative attention is a way to get attention.

I do know that if kids don’t get enough positive attention they will seek attention in negative ways. I do hope that she has someone in her life who isn’t a P and will give her more positive attention. However, there’s probably not much you can do to influence this one way or the other.


You are a strong woman. Keep going in the right direction. He is out of his shell and you are correct he is being himself.

Document everything. Leave and don’t look back. I hope you can get some help. This is a really hard time, but once you get rid of it….it will get better.
Please post here and go to a shelter for women if necessary. They know about abusive men.

Kepp going back to the police till they act. Maybe a women’s shelter could get someone to assist you.

All my prayers. You are a survivor. Congrats on your baby. All children are gifts from God.


I have finally faced the truth that the man I have loved for years is a sociopath. Please bear with me while I get this all out. I was attracted to him because he never pushed me or made me feel rushed. the early part of the relationship was entirely at my own pace. I see now that somehow he tapped into my psyche and understood that was important to me. But something was just always off. He never kept a job more than 6 months and always had money issues. He had two other children thru two other relationships and lead me to beleive that the mothers were absolutely incompetent unfeeling souls. He went after his daughter’s mother with a vengeance. I understand now that this simply fed his need to win and to be in control. We have been together 5 years and have never spent more than 1 year together at a time. We reconsiled for the umpteenth time last February and now have a 2 month old and the crap has again hit the fan. This last year has been an expensive one financially. I bought a car when I discovered I was pregnant to ease the burden of getting back and forth to work. He got the car towed and impounded, driving on a suspended lisense. He lost his job and continued to live with me while pregnant as I was footed the majority of the bills and took the bus to work everyday. I was beaten and choked while I was pregnant, had to call a cab to go to the hospital at one point when I threw up to the point of dry heaves. He claimed not to have known I had left the house nor that I had gone to the hospital. While i was in the hospital I ended up hqavcing to pay to get the car I had rented out of impound after he parked next to a fire hydrant. I wake up every morning lately feelingas though there is a 10 pund brick on my chest. I have the opportunity of a lifetime and by the grace of God have been blessed enough to be able to move out of the apartment I now live in and into a house in two weeks. I dont know if he thin ks he will be going anf I dont even want to ask. The lease on this apartment is in my name and he has refused to leave. I have gone so far as to try to get a restraining order but was told that unless i was in iminent danger there was nothing that could be done. I was under so much stress during the prenancy that I ended up losing 15 punds while pregnant, the dr said she had never seen anything like it and I am still three moths later still losing weight. I and typing this dreading him walking in thru the door from work.
I feel like such an absolute fool. I have no doubt that he will turn into a truly ugly vindictive troll once we are seperated and will use the baby in any way possible to get to me. I am however determined to make this move alone. I will have support on the day of the move so hopefully everything will be drama free. I am just so tired, emotionally and physically. Everything about this man is a lie and it is funny but I feel he is no longer even making the pretense of being anything other than what he is. Thank you for letting me join your family.



A friend has just sent me the following link for a book called ‘The Gift of Fear’ and it has been highly recommended. The book shows pre-incident indicators (PINs) that can determine if someone poses a danger to us.

You should speak to your landlord immediately and tell them about your situation; be sure you have given a 30-day notice (in writing). You can check with a landlord/tenant attorney in your state for about $35 if you get a referral through the Bar Association, and ask them about your rights, responsibilities, and so forth. It may be that after you have vacated the premises he (the S) is trespassing; an attorney should be able to tell you for sure. Whatever you do, DO NOT allow him to go with you, or tell him where you are moving to. If you allow him access to your new place, you’ll be in the same situation again. Make sure he cannot copy any keys, and I would consider installing an alarm system for your safety. If your S choked and beat you, is that not enough evidence that you are imminent danger? Good luck, and blessings to you.

Ox Drover

Livingloving me,

Those are great suggestions from Peggy, call a shelter today, I am sure that they will have some helpful suggestions for you and may know an attorney that will help you for little or for free.

BE SAFE above all else. God bless and come here whenever you need to.

Stay strong, he will lie, cheat, promise, anything to get you to take him with you, but you know HE IS THE LIE. God bless you and your child and keep you safe.

You can and will for the baby and you. Go to a shelter, get help…one step at a time. Do not give up. This is hard, but you are tougher.

Call a 1-800 number now- talk to someone. JUst Google Domestic violence 1-800


I am abhout at the end of my rope. I dont feel like I can go on. This weight on my chest is unbearable. If I make it thru the night I will be going to the courts again to try for an order of protection. I cantr live in the same house with him anylonger.

Ox Drover

Call a shelter NOW—see if they can get you out of the house tonight. Call a friend, someone, leave and go somewhere safe so you can rest for the night, a motel, anywhere.

Stay in touch with us.(((hugs))) and PRAYERS


My heart hurts so bad. I laid there last night thinking about dying and the release it would give me. I cant go on like this for much longer. I am trhis close to taking abunch of pills and just ending it. I cant beleive that the pain can get any worse or that this situation can get any better. How is this slow death better thana fast one. I feel so empty abd dead already. I have prayed and prayed on my knees for some strenght and I truly have nothing left. i just want it to end. i hate even calling anyone to talk because noone understands. i dont even understand anymore.all i know is that the neverending pain is too much to bearand i need s break. i need to close my eyes and never have to feel this ever again

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