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Psychopathy versus sociopathy again…

I plan to review for you a very recent paper: Psychopathy as a disorder of the moral brain. Dr. Robert Hare is one of the authors. But, before I can get to explaining the moral brain part, I have to get past the first paragraph, so the moral brain will be have to be discussed more next week. As I sat down to translate this paper into plain English, I got stuck at the fourth sentence:

“Antisocial behavior by itself is a nonspecific symptom common to many conditions, so psychopathy and antisocial personality disorder (ASPD, American Psychiatric Association, 1994) are not analogous constructs while most cases of ASPD (sociopathy) do not fulfill the interpersonal and affective criteria for psychopathy (Hare, 2003; Ogloff, 2006) the behavioral features observed in these individuals are best explained by their level of psychopathy (Forth et al., 1996).”

O.K. let me get this straight, psychopathy and antisocial personality disorder are not the same thing so a sociopath is not a psychopath BUT to the extent that a sociopath is a sociopath, it is because he/she is a psychopath! Now, how are we supposed to understand that so we can start discussing the important point—the moral brain?

The first sentence of the paper sheds light on what the author is really trying to say, “Psychopathy is a personality disorder defined by a constellation of interpersonal, affective, and behavioral/lifestyle features, including manipulation and deception, grandiosity, shallow emotions, lack of empathy and remorse, an impulsive, irresponsible lifestyle, and the persistent violation of social norms and expectations.” What he should have said in the fourth sentence is that many people psychiatrists diagnose with sociopathy using the DSM do not score above 30 on the psychopathy inventory (PCL-R), so that by a strict definition they are not psychopaths. To give you some background about why there is an argument here please read Psychopath and Antisocial Personality Disorder: A Case of Diagnostic Confusion by Dr. Hare. He reports that the interpersonal behavior and emotions of psychopaths best define them. He objects to the fact that these are not emphasized enough in the current definition of ASPD, which places too much emphasis on antisocial behavior.

These arguments took place some time ago before it was discovered that both sociopathy (ASPD) and psychopathy are a spectrum. Before that time Dr. Hare said that “psychopaths” were those who scored more than 30 on his scale. But since that time we have discovered that many people who score between 20 and 30 on the tests have the same physical and brain abnormalities as those who score over 30. So in reality a person is not a sociopath or a psychopath a person simply possesses traits of these disorders to a high degree. The higher the degree of psychopathy the more likely it is that a person will have an abnormal moral brain. If we look at a group of people and do a correlation between the degree of sociopathy as measured by the DSM criteria and the degree of psychopathy as measured by the PCL-R there is a high correlation between the two. So your worst sociopath is also your worst psychopath. Rather than being an argument over trying to separate apples and oranges, this is an argument over how to best define an apple (or a bad apple depending on how you look at it).

Psychopathy and sociopathy are really patterns of extreme brain and endocrine function that we infer from observing a person’s behavior. The real question is which behaviors are most indicative of this extreme physiology? If you read the scientific literature you will discover that many individuals who score between 20 and 30 also have aberrant brain and hormonal function. So the problem is not criteria, the problem is the cut off score of 30 which is in my opinion too high. There are a couple of studies indicating people with scores as low as 12 might have abnormal moral brains. If the cut off for psychopathy is lowered to 20 or 25 there is considerably more overlap between the PCL-R and the DSM.

I happen to agree with Dr. Hare that his scale is better at identifying individuals high in psychopathic/sociopathic traits. But I don’t think he should stop at the PCL-R which is a test only specially trained clinicians can administer. He has also developed the P-Scan which is a 90 item test that anyone can use to rate another person’s psychopathy. I have used this scale and believe that if this was accepted as the rating scale for psychopathy/sociopathy everyone would be able to identify those high in these traits. Isn’t that what we should do? Why should the identification of morally insane people be only reserved for highly trained clinicians?

I also think we should get away from assuming sociopathy and psychopathy are categories that people either do or do not belong to. There are many instances where just a few psychopathic traits can do serious damage. Damaging people can have some of psychopathic traits and not others.

When psychopathic traits interact with a specific situation or opportunity to do harm there is likely to be trouble. An example of a trait-situation interaction is when a highly psychopathic person is a parent or spouse, or a boss. If the highly psychopathic person has low power and low situational opportunities for harm, he/she is less of a problem to society. Similarly society needs leaders and parents to be low in psychopathic traits because in these situations just a few traits bring out harmful behavior. If we focus on traits we can begin to discuss situation and trait interactions. If we focus on the traits, we will avoid making the mistake of saying, “He/she isn’t a sociopath, so he/she is O.K.” The authors are correct in saying that evil behavior is best predicted by the presence of psychopathic traits, irrespective of whether there is a “formal diagnosis” of psychopathy.

What I would like to see is studies of physiology using the P-Scan completed by relatives who know the subject well as an assessment. Although the question of what is different about the physiology of psychopaths/sociopaths is very important, it is not the only or even most practically important question. If psychopathy can only be identified by a few highly trained people, what good is the construct? But if we had a behavioral or psychological test that nearly anyone could use, and that test was related to abnormal physiology then it would be highly useful to humanity.

Furthermore, there are numerous hormonal and brain findings associated with psychopathy and sociopathy. It is likely that these findings relate to specific traits. For example, high testosterone is related to unrestricted sociosexual orientation, power motivation and impulsivity but is less related to low affection. In this regard, the P-Scan is very good because the 90 items examine psychopathic traits in detail. Next week, psychopathic traits and the moral brain.


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Sociopath Types – The Four Types Of Sociopaths

Sociopaths will share all four characteristic types show below however they
will tend to be more of a particular type as explained in brief below

1. Common Sociopath

2. Alienated Sociopath

3. Aggressive Sociopath

4. Dissocial Sociopath

Sociopath Type Brief Explanation

1. The Common Sociopath

This type of sociopath has a dominant trait that is the complete lack of conscience and destruction without remorse.

2. The Alienated Sociopath

This type of Sociopath has an inability to love or be loved they will tend to class others as possessions or belongings.

3. The Aggressive Sociopath

This type of Sociopath is dangerous as they will always show aggressive behavior even to the point of committing murder.

4. The Dissocial Sociopath

This type of sociopath can conform to standards around them, as long as it doesn’t effect the fact they are antisocial.

Author: Elias Gourvelos
WebSite: http://sociopath.personality-disorders.info

I am still confused as to the terminology ‘Sociopath’ – ‘Psychopath’ has the label sociopath taken over from Psychopath.. to be politically correct? Is an aggresive sociopath (3) a psychopath? To an untrained eye it is all slightly confusing.

Donna has drawn a line under the Discrimination and Sociopaths’ blog and I fully agree with her decision, although Mr Greens contributions were informative, some of his comments did have preditory tones which personally I found quite disturbing, although for my part I did understand some of his comments I obviously didn’t agree with them although they did take me a while to comprehend I can now see that he is a deeply disturbed man, but also he was prepared to put his point of view forward.

However my past experience of being involved with a man who I have labelled a sociopath and whose personality traits do tick all of the boxes may be suffering from an extreme personality disorder, I am very confused! Most of us have
watched Silence of the Lambs (although only a fictitious character) with morbid fascination, Dr Lecter was an incredibly articulate & fascinating man, can a sociopath morph into a physcopath when cornered?

V. abraded,
I am confused by all the different terms too, but I always thought that a psychopath was a sociopath who was violent. . . but I don’t know now. Maybe one of the doctors can help clear this up.

I have always been interested in movie sociopaths. I think if they’re portrayed accurately it can be a good way to understand their behavior better. Hannibal Lecter is the most famous one I think, but there are so many others. For example, the main character in Woody Allen’s Match Point is one that is pretty much a classic case, who ends up getting violent to serve his own purposes. It’s really creepy to watch, but fascinating.

Elias_Gourvelos I find your subgroups very interesting. I had come up with some sub groups in my own head, without research of course, just observation. Where can I find the research behind these groups. It is all very interesting. I can defiantly find out where I stand in your grouping as well. I think I have migrated from one group to anther over time and training.

v.abraded I don’t believe I was the cause of the ending of the thread. I think it had something to do with the postings of Aha. If this is true could Mrs. Andersen confirm this?

I was never asking you to agree with what I wrote. There was never actually anything to agree with. I was giving you my opinion and my experiences point blank. You don’t have to agree with what I am for me to still exist. My goal is to inform, to speak the truth as best I can not to frighten. If my posts are disturbing you in any way I would ask that you skip over them, I believe others are benefiting from them and I would not want to remove their privileges when a simpler form of self moderation can be applied. Also, please don’t confuse sarcasm with predatory tones. My attempt to lighten up the thread and make it less aggressive and negative obviously backfired.

I would also prefer to keep the comparisons of real life sociopaths separate from those of fictional cannibalistic characters. I don’t believe the author of this series of books and movies is qualified to accurately represent socio/psychopaths. I don’t believe cannibalism is part of the DSM or PCL-R, but I could be wrong.

Cheers,

Mr. Green:

I have read your posts for some time now, and have found them somewhat disturbing. I have elected, until now, to ignore you or have NC in the hope you would just go away and find some other use of your time.

However, upon your last entry I have made the following observations. I suggest, Mr. Green, that it is quite likely you are not a Sociopath after all… for the following reasons:

1. A sociopath is always in denial of their socipathy, and would not therefore, identify themselves as such. A sociopath must view themselves as “perfect” and sociopathy, in and of itself, is an imperfect state and condition of the mind. So therefore, by stating you are a sociopath, it makes me believe that you are in fact, NOT a sociopath. Maybe you’re a wannabee sociopath.

2. Sociopaths do not speak the truth, but only a web of tangled lies and deceit. So your statement, “My goal is to inform, to speak the truth” is a non-sociopathic statement and incongrous with sociopathy.

3. Socipaths are very egotistical and only concerned with benefiting themselves. So therefore, your statement regarding, ” I believe others are benefiting from them” implies that you want others to benefit from your comments. Again, this is a non-sociopathic statement.

Perhaps you are socipathic in that you don’t have many friends or family members to associate with. You may have some sociopathic tendencies. But I do not believe you are a sociopath! I believe you just have a desperate desire for attention.

I totally agree with you Liane, that there needs to be a “easily used” test/check-list/something that can be used say by a judge as in family court, that can show the pathology and behavioral history that bodes poorly for parenting, etc.

As things seem to me to stand now, with even professionals not wanting to “label” someone a ASPD or sociopath, or psychopath, because of the complexity of the nature of the current check-lists, P-scans etc. I think something that is “useful” is desperately needed.

Many psychopaths can also “fool” a professional if the ONLY information the professional has is the word of the P him/herself.

I am gratified to learn that there is a great deal of discussion (professionally) and research going on about both the behavior and the “hardwiring” of these predators. It may take another generation, but I think it is moving in the RIGHT direction and at an increasing pace.

With the human genome project, more unraveling of DNA, and the acceptance that babies are NOT born a “blank slate” on which environment writes, the stage is set to advance this scientifically. There was once a time that professionals thought that schizophrenia was environmentally and parent caused. Now we know that this is NOT the case. The parents of these unfortunate individuals were “blamed” for causing this in their children, which such was NOT the case at all. And, now these people CAN be helped and parents can realize that they are NOT at “frault.” I can only imagine how much guilt those parents must have suffered to be blamed for their child’s mental illness.

Although I do not foresee the day when a person can be “locked up” because he/she is a psychopath as long as they have not (yet) violated the law, I do see that children may be protected from P parents better. I also do see that those people who are more easily diagnosed as Ps will not receive lenient treatment when they DO violate the law and especially violate the law repeatedly and/or violently.

Changing the way our courts operate will take time and for some children it will not be fast enough, but movement in any new direction takes time, and because we ARE a country of laws, not ruled by force, it takes longer to change those laws in the appropriate direction.

I also hope that as things progress the education of the general public as well as professionals that there is little or nothing that can be done to “reform” these people is accepted more generally. I also hope that Liane and other professionals will find ways to environmentally decrease the genetic influence over some or all of the people born with some of these genes.

Thank you Liane for this very good essay and thank you too for your contributions to the understanding of people on this blog, and to publishing your books.

peggywhoever if the world was like you I would have it so much easier. I take it as a compliment that you do not think I am a sociopath. My first lesson to you is that taking the words of a sociopath at face value are a great way to get yourself into trouble. As I have said before I act in a way that I hope is perceived as being somewhat socially acceptable. I am not limited to the strictest definitions of the truth as you may be.

“1. A sociopath is always in denial of their socipathy, and would not therefore, identify themselves as such. A sociopath must view themselves as “perfect” and sociopathy, in and of itself, is an imperfect state and condition of the mind. So therefore, by stating you are a sociopath, it makes me believe that you are in fact, NOT a sociopath. Maybe you’re a wannabee sociopath.”

I think I can relate my argument against your point back to the topic at hand. A person does not have to possess all sociopathic traits to be considered in the spectrum of being a sociopath. My discovered that I am a sociopath has been a long road. I have been in denial of any sort of problem for a very long time. Once I have embraced the fact that yes I am a sociopath, or have sociopathic traits I can use this to my advantage and fulfill my needs. No where have I stated that I perceive of myself as imperfect. The assumption that you have made that upon acceptance of the title of sociopath I have also accepted the idea of being flawed is incorrect. I don’t think I am flawed being a sociopath. I think I am perfect in every definition of the word. To fit into this world though I have accepted the idea that I have to change my ideal self to conform to this world beliefs. I am still not accepting of the idea that I even have a problem. I simply recognize that if I act the way I want to I will be stopped and I will not be permitted to have the same level of freedom that I desire.

2. Sociopaths do not speak the truth, but only a web of tangled lies and deceit. So your statement, “My goal is to inform, to speak the truth” is a non-sociopathic statement and incongrous with sociopathy.

3. Socipaths are very egotistical and only concerned with benefiting themselves. So therefore, your statement regarding, ” I believe others are benefiting from them” implies that you want others to benefit from your comments. Again, this is a non-sociopathic statement.

I’m glad you have accepted these statement at face value. I don’t think I need to extend any effort as to why I might say something like this. I will refer you to a few pages as to why I might say this.
http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2008/01/16/bewildering-speech/
http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/2007/12/11/a-common-verbal-ploy-of-the-psychopath/

I may be shooting myself in to foot by saying this but I will say almost anything to make myself look good. That is still not to suggest that everything I say is a lie. In general I tell the truth on this website. I am gaining an understanding about myself from the ability to express my thoughts and answer your questions on this website. As an added benefit I can see that it is helping you to understand. I could really care less if I am helping you but I know that I am doing it. So if I discovered I am indirectly help you through helping myself does it mean I am going to stop just to screw you over? No, I wish to continue if you don’t mind.

I guess this could be one of my biggest lessons. Sociopaths are not robots they do not conform to the most literal forms of the definition. They may also have alter motives as to why they might do something. Look at the face value of a statement and then look beneath it for the hidden logic and the alter meaning.
To me everything is as clear as day, it is also clear to other sociopaths but maybe I sound confusing to the “normal” people out there. I guess to full understand us you have to be one of us.

Why even tell you this? Here’s a hint. I sometimes get my kick out of screwing over sociopaths.

“You may have some sociopathic tendencies. But I do not believe you are a sociopath!”

The tendencies are what makes the sociopath. Nobody is a sociopath, they just have a varying degree of sociopathic tendencies. Some amount to enough to cross that arbitrary line as to who we should call a sociopath and as to who we shouldn’t. As the good doctor says “There are many instances where just a few psychopathic traits can do serious damage”. I would suggest that you do a re-read of this post. It may help you in the future.

It’s been fun discussing this. I am actually glad you brought this up. It may help some other, and as you know that is the real reason I’m here……..

Cheers,

Hi to all bloggers…

I haven’t written in a few days but I have been watching the writings of our visitor.

Through all the posts, I have seen what he has been doing…and my fellow victims, you have been sucked right in.

Don’t replace the words of the sociopath you are trying to get past, with the words of this person. Every time you reply or comment, just as I am doing now, you are feeding his ego and giving him energy.

This person is not trying to help you heal, or give you insight, it is not in his nature…HELLLO!!!!!..He is picking at your wounds to see what he can scrape up to use on someone else. HE saying things to provoke a reaction…and you are falling for it.

Stop responding or acknowledging him. Sociopath by proxy is not healing either….

RW

Thanks, Righteous woman. We need to ignore this “green man.” Please, ignore him.

I totally agree, do not feed the TROLL. I hesitated to say that –I guess my “people pleasing” side again! LOL Afraid to ‘offend” another blogger–but I guess as a “self confessed” socipath we don’t need to worry about “offending him” now do we? LOL

Actually most of his arguments are so sophmoric as to be funny!

My P-son is like that, so proud of his “control” and his “mask” which actually is at this point pretty transparent. LOL

Oh well, this is the last mention I will have of him, or discussion of anything he says. As long as we don’t feed him, he will try for a while to get a “rise” out of someone, and when eventually he gets nothing he will fade away like all the Ps do and try to find a more accomodating audience.

Most of the people who did respond to him were the people who are fairly new to the concepts and thoughts and behaviors of Ps, so I can definitely see why they wanted to converse with one…but the problem is, it is like I said about the two men, one always lied and one always told the truth. They would both give the same answer to the question, are you the liar? LOL

Frankly I’m not sure what else to say. Ultimately I may disappear from this site. Considering all of the people who do not want me here I really don’t have a reason to stay. Keeping up with all the negative opinions about me is not an easy task.

You may not appreciate what I have to say. Others appear to actually gain something from my words. Using your opinion as a basis for change may not end up be beneficial to me.

With that said I feel like I can move on with the rest of what I have to say. If it makes you feel better about your lives to ignore a helping hand then I say go for it. I would actually prefer that you ignore me if you are only going to be negative. Obviously you have nothing to gain from my words because you understand. There are others out there who may not understand and yes I believe I may be helpful even if it is only in an indirect way.

Should I not have pride in my mask? I spend so much time working on it that I should be proud of myself. I have made quite an accomplishment taking myself from a violently aggressive youth to a calm and collected adult. If that is not something to be proud over then what is? You obviously can’t understand it because you naturally fit in, but not everybody is like you.

As for the insults, keep them coming if you must. They don’t hurt me. The words like troll and sophomoric (As a general rule of insults make sure to spell the word correctly) are just words, they won’t hurt me. Sticks and stones may break my bones…

To end it for today, I am glad you are ignoring me. I won’t have to put up with your pointless post of misdirected revenge any longer.

On to bigger and better things.

Cheers,

righteous woman, I agree 100%. I don’t believe you can heal from a sociopath by talking to another one. This just continues the dance. No contact. I know in the real world you may have no choice but to deal with some while you’re healing, but why voluntarily debate one? They are the lie. I know I will never be able to have a conversation with my ex again because not everything he says is a lie, but anything he says could be. What would be the point?

Happy Easter everyone!:) Stay strong.

Dr Liane
How can we get or have acess to the P-Scan (90 item test) you refer that anyone can use to rate another person’s psychopathy? I really would like do the test for my ex boyfriend.

I have found that in many cases the P will use A PARTIAL truth, and twist it….but even though it may contain a grain of truth, it is still meant to deceive.

Keep in mind that RAT POISON is 99% PURE CORN MEAL, and only 1% poison, so if you think of a lie like that, you can see that anything meant to deceive is POISON. DON’T EAT IT, and for SURE DON’T SWALLOW!

hello to all and happy easter to those who celebrate…thanks so much to donna, as i feel this sight has been incredibly instrumental in helping me to restore balance and grounding in my life.. although never having written, i have been with you all for at least half a year…the bloggers here have sufferred much, as have i, and i find only someone who has been through this type of deception will EVER understand it.and the depths to which is tears and burns at our spirit…..my opinion towards mr.green, is that he now SERVES a purpose.and SERVES us..sort of a practice for all of us to keep up our guard and identify all the red flags he puts up,,,what a bit of double speak he spews…and it clearly shows how confused the thoughts in his mind are…a very NOISY mind…i think we should USE him now , but only while keeping in mind that he is a narcissist as well as having severe impulse control…if we can do that we may pick up some insightful traits and be able to practice how to HANDLE these folks in our everyday lives….if we notice someone here displaying empathy towards him, we just kindly remind that person not to feed into his supply sincerely these types have truly given me a new world view….i never realized people could exist without a conscience or soul….but something , be it psychological, biological or spiritual really mutated in these creatures………oh and for fun,to lighten up a bit…he points out the misspelling of someones word sophomoric…..too funny…through all his blogs, i have been enjoying the numerous words he either misspells or uses totally incorrectly (alter for example, instead of the more appropriate ulterior, being the most enjoyable…

Newworld view,

LOL that was ME that missssssspelled that word–sometimes my fingers run faster than my brain, or is it the other way round and I “tarnspose” letters or hhit more than one! and then I post before I run spell check. Yes, I also noticed his errors, but again, no point in pointing them out. LOL

I didn’t respond to him–because it is like two dogs in a “leg hiking contest” you both get pee all over you and everything else. LOL

Believe me, he and his “logic” and his “kindness” to point out to us how HARD he has to work at appearing normal and to restrain himself from xyz, show that he either is a P or he is a student pretending to be one. But, in either case, he isn’t important—or unique, we all have known them who are smarter, bigger, badder, meaner, and more successful and have better things to do with their lives than gloat over conversing with us, they are out there doing really mean things instead of just “talking a big game.”

BTW, welcome Newworld–glad you are here. This is a healing place and a very educational one too.

OxDrover:

I love your descriptive language! You offer both enlightenment and FUN. Thanks. Again, welcome Newworld!

WEll, Peggy, the thing is if you can’t laugh about it eventually, I think something is wrong somewhere. You must admit it is all pretty riduculous, isn’t it?

Yea, these people are EVIL and they have done some pretty nasty things to us, but in the end, WE have “won” because they didn’t KEEP US DOWN.

Glad you enjoy my sense of humor–I do admit sometimes it gets pretty twisted! LOL

Please, let’s be very cautions. From my experiece with a P, Mr. Green will definitely come back to this blog with another “alias”.

OxDrover:

I have a question to pose to you:

It appears from my reading and research both that 1) S’s have an agenda and 2) they are very impulsive and/or spontaneous.

On the surface those seem mutually exclusive or incongrous but since you have a wealth of experience with these people, how does one explain this?

It’s all about power, deceit, lies, manipulation, attention, etc…I’m pretty sure he’s planning his way back to this blog as a sympathizer for Mr. Green. I dealt with a “P” -(the worst kind) for five years….I’m glad to be alive to tell my story.

bookworm:

I believe you are probably right about Mr. Green. However, I think we will be able to identify him regardless of what name he uses, and still use NC. Since S’s require stimulation, and are easily bored, I cannot imagine he will find this site amusing for very long when he is ignored.

Absolutely, Bookworm, I agree with you 100%–every blog I have ever read or been on has had the same problem, some P discovers it and gets on trying to cause trouble and distract us from our purpose…I just assume there are ALWAYS one or two either lurking or posting. It’s what they do after all.

IN this group though, I sincerely doubt that they will go too long without being spotted but if they do, so what? It isn’t like they are gonna “get a virgin” (to Ps) on this spot. LOL

The agenda (such as it is) is what it is that they want. MOney, power, control, public acclaim, worship, sex, adoration, fear in their victims, to be able to gloat to the victim and see the victim squirm (or ALL of the above + anything else you can think of) Some want more some less. Like the Thread was talking about the other day with guys like Spritzer, they want power and to appear to be “important.” Some Ps like my son, went to prison before he was able to mature enough frontal lobe to see past the end of his nose. He went for the short term gains of stealing (fun) more for the fun of it than because he wanted what he stole. It was the “stepping out of the circle” defying authority, etc.

Because he was not willing to look at the long term goal (if he had any) he got caught because of his adolescence impulsivity.

Spritzer, on the other hand, didn’t stoop to “low life theft” as far as we know, but got an education, put up a mask/front as much as possible, got a job in a profession where power is exerted (law) allied himself with other Ps in politics, etc.

But again, even his WELL PLANNED AND EXECUTED mask and bad deeds were brought down like a house of cards by him pandering to his own baser instincts for “risky sex” and high dollar call girls. Seeing the photograph of that one I am not really sure why she would command thousands of dollars an hour, to me I would think that kind of bread for a hooker would be for someone who looked like Miss America or a Rock Star. LOL

I think her main allure was the high price. I think if her price had been $100 he wouldn’t have touched her—is a Rolex any “better” than a Timex? They both keep good time.

I think the bottom line (and Liane is better qualified to answer this than I am) is that it is all about them CONTROLLING their envionment and everything/body in it.

Sometimes though, because of their arrogance and willingness (almost compulsion I think) to be riskk takers I think they sometimes leap before they completely look in some of their schemes.

As far as their traits being mutually exclusive–let me illustrate it this way. I have a friend who is an artist. He makes chairs. NO two are alike, except possibly the number of legs, though some have 4 aand some have 3, but if you have EVER seen even one of his chairs, you would instantly recognize any other chair he has made as “one of his” chairs. I can’t put my finger on exactly why, though I have seen literally dozens of his chairs, and each is absolutely unique.

I think that someway Ps are sort of like that…each is actually unique but there is “something” about them that makes each one somehow recognizable as a P–a unique, but nasty piece of work!

As far as my “wealth” of experience, I think POVERTY OF EXPERIENCE IS MORE CORRECT! lol I have done all the wrong things, and done them at least twice, and sometimes 3 or 4 times wrong before I got the LESSON. (smile)

Happy Easter.

Peggy, we posted over each other. LOL

OxDrover:

I guess in a nutshell then (or should I say nutcase?) LOL…S’s desire to control their environment and everyone/everything in it, (but) sometimes they behave impulsively and/or compulsively without considering the big picture (agenda) or the long-term consequences thereof. Does this sound right?

I am having extreme difficulty focusing on my job (anxiousness, difficulty focusing, procrastinating); is this part of PTSD?

LOL about your poverty of experience! I can relate to that. I tell my kids that we learn more from our mistakes than from the things we do right.

Peggy:

Mine wasn’t spontaneous or impulsive, really. Well, he didn’t make plans, wouldn’t make plans…but that doesn’t seem spontaneous, to me. More like waiting for a better opportunity. Not to be too cynical.

Do you, or anyone else here, think maybe that if the S is all those things: craving power, control, ownership, mastery and have an agenda (that Secret-named guy who used to post here and posted his blog on here called his games with women…something…i can’t recall exactly what he called them, schemes? Exploits? Something along those lines)…that maybe we are the opposite type…we don’t seem to want power, control and don’t have an agenda?

I often see myself as being someone with a healthy sense that all of us humans have no real control over anything, because life can take away in an instant whatever we have. I also know I’ve never wanted power or control over anything, because I grew up feeling powerless. That’s unfortunately my natural state, and I hate competing for things. Would rather just do without.

Those qualities are the antithesis of my ex-P’s. Even when he asked me where I wanted to go at night, he would always end up choosing the plan he created and we’d do that. A total control freak and it felt like I was being moved around his Life game board, just another interchangeable pink peg in the plastic car.

Just wondering how you ladies see yourselves in terms of those desires for power, control, etc.

LilOrphan:

My S was extremely patterned, always on time, and seemed to need structure. However, he was simultaneously defrauding people and cheating (big time, I’m talking a million dollars or more) on his taxes. Then he had an affair and cheated on me (lied about this of course, although I have proof), and he would still occasionally get into shouting matches and/or physical and violent confrontations at work (he’s not a kid, he’s 54), and ride his Harley without a helmet nor a motorcycle endorsement. So although he appeared stable, he sometimes, and seemingly impulsively, would act out…for sex, risk-taking, or out of anger.

You’re right, they are opportunists. As soon as they have met a woman who has more to offer, they’re gone and never give you a passing thought (and are extremely cruel and nasty in the process, accusing us of the things they did/do). They also speak of us with the greatest disrespect (and lies).

Yes, I do think the S is all of those things you listed, “craving power, control, ownership, mastery and have an agenda”. My S controlled me, but I didn’t realize it at the time; I thought I was acquiescing to him for the sake of peace and harmony, and letting him be the “man” in the family. I also think OxDrover is right that they want “Money, power, control, public acclaim, worship, sex, adoration, fear in their victims, to be able to gloat to the victim and see the victim squirm”. I most definitely believe they exploit women with malice aforethought which I would say equates to “agenda” or intent. (This term specifically appies to murder, but I suggest that S’s do, in fact, plan to murder our spirits and/or our souls).

You’re right about the Life board game, I believe we talked previously about “life is a chess game”, and we are their pawns.

We also have an agenda (i.e. something we want) we want to be LOVED in the same way we love. There is nothing wrong with having an agenda, unless you are willing to use and abuse to realize it.

Websters defines agenda as “a plan of things to be considered or done.”

The things we do are focused on achieving our agenda. The things they do are focused on their agenda. But our agendas are NOT the same as theirs. In a healthy relationship there is give and take and INTER-dependence, not a parasitic relationship.

A relationship starts off with us thinking their agenda is the same as ours (love) but ends up with them in CONTROL which was their agenda to start with. I think too, that BECAUSE they can control us, it makes them DESPISE us all the more for being so “weak” that they were able to control us.

Some seem to want to keep a victim around forever, and others suck one dry and move on to the next one, and still others want multiple victims at the same time. I am not sure what makes one one way and another the other way–maybe Liane can answer that one.

MY P-bio father reserved his special hatred for those of us that stood up to him and didn’t back down. Then he would institute the smear campaign. I think he was so afraid that we might tell someone what he was or how he was and he wanted to make us look bad before we did that. I have been in correspondence with a well known world figure that we worked with when we were over seas, and I had heard rumors that my P-bio father had been thrown out of that country because he tried to bribe that man, and in some writings of my P-bio F he blasted this guy, so I finally got the man’s confidence enough that he told me what had gone on and that after an attempted bribe failed, he had threatened to shoot the man, and the man stood up to him and said “OK, go ahead” and of course P backed down.

My late husband had worked with my P-bio father for a short time, and also would not back down from him, and his threats (they weren’t all empty threats either) and P-F hated my husband with a powerful rage because he could not scare him. P-F was a great coward really, he was much bigger at beating up women and children than grown men. LOL

Peggy, I have written a book about m P-F, and his “interesting life” of crime, rage, hate, and money (he eventually did get the big money) made the Forbes 400 one year, well before the age of the Billionaires like Gates, but enough money to be really really rich. But it is not for publication just for my kids and some friends and my step kids. I wrote it too, just because I am probably the last person who knows the real truth. If the kids want to publish it after I am gone, they can, but I doubt by that time unless I die tomorrow, there will be anyone who cares a whit about him. 15 minutes of fame is about it. LOL

Even in his obit, there was more about his next to last wife, who has in her own right made a very good public career as a model and real estate developer than there was about him. When he married her, she was 15 and sort of a Priscilla Presley clone, big hair and all, and after she left him, she like Priscilla, had done a remake of herself. She is obviously very bright and charismatic as well as quite pretty. I am glad that she went on to a good life with a new husband and lots of money. She EARNED every cent of it. As far as I know, she is the only wife out of 6 or 7 that left with more than the clothes on her back and her life.

LilOrphan:

I missed an important part of your inquiry, “that maybe we are the opposite type…we don’t seem to want power, control and don’t have an agenda?” I believe there is truth in that. In interpreting this, the word is laissez-faire comes to mind (although it relates to economics) which means, simply, “let do”. I see this as your preferred methodology or view of life and the interactions thereof, to “let do” as opposed to control.

S’s must have someone they can con, and someone they can overpower. They seem to select women who are vulnerable and/or who are very loving, caring, nurturing, kind, and I would say (since reading the blogs on this site), highly intelligent (and don’t have an agenda or want to control people). Frankly, I was initially surprised by the brilliance of the people who post here…I previously had the mistaken perception that “victims” were most generally undereducated; but I have rethought this. (I apologize if I have offended anyone by this revelation).

So yes, essentially your S used the most beautiful parts of you personality and essence against you for his own personal benefit. It’s like a rape of the spirit.

OxDrover:

We’re posting at the same time again!? I would be most interested in reading your book, and I am confident other Lovefraud readers would also. Have you ever considered having it published? Don’t say no yet…just consider a seed planted. Maybe Donna or Dr. Leedom would be interested in it? Something to ponder…

Yes, I’ve also determined that S’s are BIG COWARDS. They like to bully, but have no courage…

So, Mr. Green, my old buddy… have you gotten around to being formally diagnosed yet or are ya still “arm chairing” it and proudly wearing the self proclaimed banner?

peggy:

Do you think specifically they target women who are “laissez-faire” about life? Very live and let live, accepting, non-judgmental, go with the flow, passive types?

You’d think since they seem so much about challenge and climbing Everest, they’d try to aim a bit higher than CONTROLLING someone who doesn’t believe in controlling others and isn’t the type to question behaviors as much.

Maybe they can only make inroads with certain, more relaxed types??

To this day it bugs me that the last time I saw the S he said I was about control. Yes, it was projection and even if it weren’t, he’s proven his word is about as useful as an old used band-aid. But that stuck, somehow, with me trying to figure out if I’m a controlling person underneath. And maybe being voiceless for so long has that flip repressed desire to control – if you’ve read at all about traits and their shadows, that would make sense.

And yet…it feels more like something negative he planted in my head to mess with me, yet another self-esteem killer and merely projection.

My closest friend since childhood thinks it untrue. She’s seen all phases of life from the bad experiences while young to marriage to kids and divorce, and she thinks I just want people to step-up to the plate, that my expectations are high for others but because they are even higher for my own behavior and ethics.

Anyway, I’m rambling – but there does seem to be something in the whole submissive persona that attracts the N/P.

i think they do go for sweet caring accepting people, who dont expect a lot in material sense. i was brougth up by a passive caring nurturer and i a m some what the same. i think they radar us. also someone on here said they go for intelligent types . then why do they do that cause an intelligent lady would have more chance of figuring out the scam wouldnt they? i am caring but intelligent and experienced in life so go firgure why did he go for me. i think the experience thing scares them a bit, thats why they go for younger woman normally or someone less experienced in life maybe. it was my life experience that made we aware of what he was doing in the end more than intelligence. even though we are smart the way they are is so alien to us we still may not click on to what is hapening. so why do they go f or intelligent woman? Any one know.

LilOrphan/Jules:

I don’t think “laissez-faire” necessarily means passive, but “let do” … easy-going, peace-loving, people who do not enjoy conflict. We are not, like S’s, just out to win, or to rule the world. We are sharing, kind, loving, nurturing…and yes, intelligent.

They are con men. What do con men do? They con. It is their job, and they are very good at it, they have been doing it all of their lives. They con us. They lie to us. They spoon-feed us the “dream” (mixed up with some pretty good lovin’, releasing endorphins and enhancing addictive chemicals in our brains), and then they betray us. I personally believe they “go for” more intelligent women because it makes for a better chase…makes the game more interesting for them…

Thank you Peggy, but I really don’t think my book is the kind of thing that would be of general interest. I have published a couple of small books on local history of the area in which I live, but this was just written to help me get a grasp and organize my thoughts and the patterns of his life and behaviors.

As far as what kind of victim they pick– people who are not generally suspicious. Some hold out a LURE of adventure (my p-bio father) some hold out a lure of money–I’ll invest your money and make you rich–others love, spirituality, or any other fantasy that they can produce for bait.

Some like to “con” people that are challenges, others like more submissive types. My P-biio-father liked both challenging victims and ones that were “stupid” as he called them, but in any case, as soon as he had succeeded in conning them he despised them. He reserved his most violent hates for those that he couldn’t con. People who would stand up to him put him into a violent rage. If he couldn’t scare them that way, he would do a smear campaign. I do know of two people he actually killed, but he claimed many more. He lied so much though, that I am not sure about the others he claimed to have killed.

I think Jules summed it up with “even though we are smart, the way they are is SO ALIEN to us we still may not click on what is happening”

I think some of the brighter Ps go for intelligent people because it is more of a challenge to them, like bagging a bigger bear on a hunt gives you “bragging rights” to being a better hunter than killing a bear cub. The challenge of the hunt. The brighter ones too, I think tend to be more arrogant.

Also, I read that a 25 point IQ difference between two people almost precludes any kind of deep communication between the two. I’m not sure if I believe that or not, but in any case, I think the brighter ones go for brighter victims, and the duller Ps go for people beneath them in intelligence.

Personally I know people with much less on an IQ score than me who would have figured out and stayed away from my P son. They saw through him a long time before I did. LOL So your IQ score doesn’t keep you from being gullible. Maybe in the end because we are bright we seem to think that protects us from doing stupid things. LOL

There is an old myth that very bright people don’t have any common sense—and I am not sure that there may not be come basis in this old “saying”—LOL I know a lot of people who wouldn’t be classified as much more than “low average” that have some pretty good insight into the P-behavior and wouldn’t stand for it a minute.

So I don’t think intelligence protects us, and I don’t think that being dull does either–maybe it is more EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE that is lacking in the victims. We just can’t comprehend that some others don’t have a conscience. That their emotions are not the same as ours. We PROJECT morality on to them the way they project blame on to us.

Jules, I think they go for intelligent women for a number of reasons. They get a thrill out of refining their tactics, and outwitting their prey – there is no fun for them in getting one over someone who is a bit dumb and who cannot behave like the perfect prey. Remember the fun is also in the chase. Also they need more intelligent women to respond and react to their mind games. When they drop hints or plant mental landmines, they want a partner who is going to use intelligent mental energy in focusing on them – even if the insinuations arent true, they just love winding people up – it gives them such power!! Unintelligent people just dont give them the same hit!

I know women who are not academically intelligent, but have what I call good ‘ground floor intelligence’ and would not put up with any c..p for one moment. Sometimes, I just think that intelligent people have a tendency to be led from their heads and whilst pondering numerous hypothesis, people with good ground floor common sense, dont have to think about things, they just act on their gut instinct.

OxD

The way I see it is this (and the P and I did talk about it) they pick women who will in some way “raise their status.” If it’s looks, for arm candy, that works. If it’s brains, so they can feel temporarily bright, that works also.

They’re empty so any number of women with multiple good qualities are needed in order to fill their “tanks”.

So I don’t think intelligence protects us, and I don’t think that being dull does either”“maybe it is more EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE that is lacking in the victims. We just can’t comprehend that some others don’t have a conscience. That their emotions are not the same as ours. We PROJECT morality on to them the way they project blame on to us.

Really like this! In the sense that we do have trouble seeing the bad. In a good world, that’s an excellent and angelic quality. In a world where P’s lurk, it’s not so good. But in and of itself, it’s an amazing quality. The world could not do without its dreamers and healers and idealists. It would be bleak, indeed. Just like it cannot do without its pragmatists, strong rational thinkers and take charge types.

What the world can do without? Sociopaths!!! 😀

We’ve seen all kinds of women here and at other S’path sites, smart, focused, grounded, book smart, street smart, no-nonsense, fluffy, loving, academic….and all rolled into one in some cases!

The only common denominator is that we’ve been taken by con men. I prefer to think that, whatever the reason, it was an intrinsically-good quality within us that attracted their hollow shells to us!

Thank you Orphan, you may have answered several questions that I have asked myself over and over again, about WHY I let my P-son keep me in the fog for SO LONG when if some man had hit me, he would have been out of my life in an instant—and calling the cops himself to get me off of him, yet I allowed my son to do what I would never have allowed a boy friend or a husband to do to me.

I took some verbally inappropriate crap off the BF, but NOT for long, I kicked him to the curb pretty quickly over all. The whole relationship only lasted about 8 months.

If having a large and thick set of “rosecolored glasses” makes me a dreamer or an idealist I guess that must be me, but somehow I have difficulty seeing how it has helped the world! LOL

OxD
If having a large and thick set of “rosecolored glasses” makes me a dreamer or an idealist I guess that must be me, but somehow I have difficulty seeing how it has helped the world! LOL”

Am sure it’s helped people on here, including me, that optimistic and open spirit. It’s part of why you write things that encourage others here, even when you’re hurting. Sure it’s helped the good people in your own personal life, as well. Being a caring, loving, kind person only hurts when it’s directed towards the wrong type of people, when it’s misguided. But real concern and caring, real idealism is the stuff that changes the world for the better. It looks at what is and sees what could be. That’s not good, when looking at a P, because we see good potential that isn’t there. But in everything else, well…

You know that phrase: be the change you want to see in the world?

In order to make the world a better place, you need people who can see it as a better place, first. If that makes sense.

S’paths can’t do that. They can only see destruction and sorrow. They can only be the change they see in the world, and it’s not good.

But people who see the good and strive for it are forces for good. They are the change they see in the world, too. That’s why it’s a quality worth keeping and worth protecting from S’paths.

Thank you Orphan, I appreciate those kind words, and yes, any good thing can be directed in the wrong direction–even caring and compassion….and I think in allowing our caring and compassion to become enabling, we are almost becoming the mirror image of the Ps—not exactly the same, but still not what we should be…enabling causes as much pain, I think as the Ps do in so many ways. I think it is just as toxic to the soul, of both the enabler and the enabled.

I do try to keep a positive outlook and try to see the “good” in any situation–After reading Dr. Viktor Frankl’s book, “Man’s Search for Meaning” which he wrote after he was released barely alive from the Nazi concentration camps in WWII, I realized what a wonderful example he was of someone who did make a difference in the world. He didn’t participate in his own victimization in the least, and was the victim of the ultimate Ps and Ps-by-proxy who did inhuman things to their fellow humans with no compassion or concern. He survived and became a better person for his experience, turned it into a positive influence in his life.

I don’t think I could ever aspire to “be like” anyone any more noble than he apparently was. He found meaning in his suffering…and somehow I have to find meaning in mine. One difference though, is that he did not “participate” in anyway in his suffering by holding onto malignant hope that his captors would some how change and start to “love” him, and I did, but still I want to find some good, some meaning, something that I can say “I’m better because of this experience”—or “I helped someone else live through this experience and heal.”

My one of my step sons was gravely head injured a few years before his death. I had worked for several years in head and spinal cord injury and when he came to stay with us, I was pretty well familiar with the problems with dealing with head inured patients. I used to tell my mother that I thought the years I had worked with head injuries was “God’s way of preparing me to deal with this.”

After my son went to prison for murder and my old college friend kept calling me to come to work at the psych hospital and I finally did, I think that that was God’s way of putting me where I needed to be to have the support I needed at that time, to see that my son wasn’t the “worst” P in the world. That I wasn’t alone in suffering because my son was a murderer.

My faith in God and my spiritual walk has grown since all of this, and maybe that’s the purpose. I don’t know…but maybe this experience is to help someone else cope with their pain with healing from the P. I know that my knowledge of head injuries in patients was very helpful to my husband, and my step son. Almost every job I have ever had in nursing from head injuries, to burn patients, and emergency medicine, to psychiatric patients, has been helpful to me in my life and to my family.

Thank you again for your kind words.

You’re welcome, OxD. Those words apply to nearly everyone encountered here so far, and I believe in them. There must be a balance between living in fear after experiencing an S and being malignantly optimistic.

Here’s something I read that sums up what drew an S to many of us, in their indolent nothingness, wishing for such good prey. This fits many of us, I feel:

“I am one of the searchers. There are I believe millions of us. We are not unhappy, but neither are we content. We continue to explore life, hoping to uncover its ultimate secret. We continue to explore ourselves, hoping to understand. We like to walk along the beach, we are drawn by the ocean, taken by its power, its unceasing motion, its mystery and unspeakable beauty. We like forests and mountains, deserts and hidden rivers, ond the lonely cities as well. Our sadness is as much of our lives as is our laughter. To share our sadness with one we love is perhaps as great a joy as we know—unless it be to share our laughter.

We searchers are ambitious only for life itself, for everything beautiful it can provide. Most of all we want to love and be loved. We want to live in a relationship that will not impede our wondering, nor prevent our search, nor lock us in prison walls; that will take us for what we have to give. We do not want to prove ourselves to another or compete for love.

These are thoughts for wanderers, dreamers and lovers, for men and women who dare to ask of life everything good and beautiful. It is for those who are too gentle to live among wolves.” James Kavanaugh

Have a lovely evening. We are not amongst wolves anymore.

Dear Orphan,

Thank you for that beautiful quote by James Kavanaugh, and you are so right “we are not among wolves anymore.”

I can’t remember where I read it, but years ago somewhere I found something that has stuck with me since then,

“A burden shared is halved, and a joy shared is doubled.”

There has been much wonder and beauty in my life, as well as much pain, and I want to focus on that beauty again, without feeling that the pain has been for naught, any more than the beauty has been.

I just got two books I ordered today. I am working up a paper to present to the parole board to ask them NOT to let the Trojan Horse P out of prison…he comes up for parole in April, the 21st. I ordered “Predators, Pedophiles Rapists, and other Sex offenders, Who they are, How they operate, and How we can Protect ourselves and Our Children,” by Anna C. Salter, PhD and another one which is a clinical risk assessment for violent offenders for health and psych professionals. I am hoping to get some good statistics and other research data from these books to give a “scientific” tone to my petition to the parole board. Wish me luck.

Since he is also a convicted child molester (3 victims, 2 below age 12) I am going to base my petition on his chances for repeat offenses. Though Dr. Salter speaks in her book of Psychopaths with some knowledge, she doesn’t seem to label each of these predators as a P, which I find a bit strange, as I would think that 99.9% of the pedophiles would be a P just by the nature of their crimes. Her statistics are enough to “curl your hair without a perm”

I’m having a bit of a time trying to read her book without grinding the caps off my teeth, as she talks about the MINOR percentage of people who actually molest children who are actually prosecuted even though there is little doubt that they are guilty, plus, the many “psychologists” who “interview” them and by nothing but an “interview” in which the P “acts nice” that the psychologists say “Oh, he couldn’t have done that, he was SO NICE in my office”–DUH! Her book was written in 2003. Apparently, though, she shares the frustration that we all do that Ps (and in her case specifically ones that are rapists and child molesters) “get away” with it more often than not.

Having actually personally known Charles “Jackie”Walls III from Arkansas who was a scout leader who molested over 1500 kids over a 20 yr period, including one he got to murder his family because after years of being molested the kid had told his parents, and the kid did murder his parents and sister, which eventually led to Jackie being arrested and given life plus “forever”–Jack’s nephew committed suicide…he had also been molested. There was a one-hour “true crime” special about Jackie on television as well.

I never liked Jackie and thought he was a horse’s butt, but never in my life would I have suspected that he would harm a child. Our living history group also had a state parks employee who was arrested in a child porno sting and went to prison, but the parks dept hushed it up. I only knew because I have many friends in the parks department. When he got out, the first thing he did was go to work for a museum working with little kids, and back into our organization also working with kids. I got him kicked out of our organization, and he was fired from his job at the museum when they were informed that he was an ex=convict. It amazes me that so many organizations do not do back ground checks on people working with children.

My son D works for the BSA part of the year and they fortunately do more to protect kids from predators than most organizations dealing with children.

If you think WE (adults) suffer at the hands of Ps, I can’t even imagine how children must suffer at their hands.

Thank you again for the James Kavanaugh passage, and you are right, “we are not amongst wolves anymore” (((hugs)))

You’re welcome. Well, in the world we obviously still are amongst wolves…or rather, they are amongst US. But hopefully here, we aren’t.

Child molesters are the worst kind of scum on the earth, and that was always one of the reasons I never wanted to move anyone in here when my kids were small. Someone lived with me once for a period of a few months many, many years ago and in the back of my head it was always a thought not to let him alone with them. You just never know. It probably would have been perfectly fine, but most child sexual assault is perpetrated by someone the child (and often the family) thinks they know well and trusts.

What is the BSA?

BSA is Boy Scouts of America.
The statistics I am reading in this book are mind boggling!

The NUMBER of victims of each of the “caught” molesters is horrifying—and how seldom they are caught, something like only 3%. Sheesh!

I have had knowledge of two rapes of children one 5 and the other 8 and NEITHER OF THESE WAS PROSECUTED. Both kids were credible, and there was physical evidence as well.

The author’s horror is that KNOWN pedophiles are not prosecuted even with good evidence. Her book was published in 2003, so this is NOT OLD INFORMATION.

This woman has devoted her career to this subject, written books on it, is “THE EXPERT” on it and recognized world wide.

One in three girl children will be molested, and one in six male children. BY ADULTS.

The Trojan-Horse-Psychopath that my son sent to invade our family is convicted on 3 counts, so by her statistics, that means he has gotten away with a minimum of 97 MORE EVENTS. The most he can spend under the last sentence is about another two years in prison, but I am determined to see that he at least spends THAT long in prison.

If I have the knowledge and information to keep him there, I feel that if I don’t exercise that to the fullest extent I can, that ANY CHILD he hurts because I sat by and let him get out earlier without trying, is on my conscience.

I have no doubt that he is seeking other victims, as when I got the “rap sheet” on him, I went to the neighbors around the little rent house he was renting from me, and he had been being “friendly” with the neighborhood kids and inviting them over. One stay-at-home-mother with a 12 year old son had seen this “nice guy” who moved into the neighborhood take an “interest” in her son, but she did not suspect a thing. I don’t think that he actually harmed this child, but I have NO DOUBT THAT HE PLANNED TO. Otherwise, why would a 40 year old man with a history of sexual predation have an “interest” in being around a 12 year old?

The BSA employee and volunteer training states that NO adult should ever be ALONE with a child. Even if you must talk or counsel with a child “privately” you do it within a visual range of another staff member so that the other staff member can SEE the child and you.

Of course a pedophile can find ways around this, but at least the BSA is making every effort to stop it as much as possible.

When the member of our living history group was exposed (by me) I went to the board of directors to get him tossed out, but I was surprised that the MEN on the board, since he had never been actually convicted of TOUCHING a child, (only child pornography) didn’t want to kick him out, but the women, bless their hearts, rose up in revolt and he was booted.

The men said “well, he has paid his debt to society” DUH??

I also informed the museum where he worked with kids, and they canceled his contract. But I noticed on the Internet the other day that he has a “company” that consults with 4-H children now. His wife, who is a school teacher, stayed with him after his arrest and incarceration, which makes me think that she is either another victim or she is involved as well.

Certainly, her being a teacher, gives him a nice group of victims to choose from.

Yes, the “wolves” inhabit the world, and there are probably a few lurking here as well…but over all I do feel safe here and validated and comforted that there are good people in this world. Sometimes it is all too easy to focus only on the negative things and people in the world, and lose the peace and joy of the positive things and the positive people. Finding a balance is important. How CAN we heal without a balance of accepting the negative without letting it turn us into a depressed negative person who cannot enjoy or even see the positives of the world?

On another blog I had a response from another blogger who said (paraphrase) “don’t give me lessons in philosophy 101 and psychology 101, just tell me how to heal and get over this pain” I realize how desperate she was, I’ve been that desperate myself, but I think that the philosophy AND the spiritual AND the psychology are ALL integral parts of the healing process.

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