This past week I was talking on the telephone with my student and research assistant when he was mugged by a group of 5-7 thugs. One hit him from behind, knocking him down and another punched him in the abdomen. Ironically, among the items stolen was a copy of “Without Conscience” by Robert Hare.
Yesterday, my student asked me, “Those guys in the group who do have empathy and guilt, how do they feel about doing this? What makes them do it?” To which I replied, “I don’t think they feel a thing. They are likely all psychopathic (sociopaths). No one wants to admit just how many of them there are. So they draw an artificial line based on the PCL-R (a psychopathy test) and say these thugs are psychopaths and these thugs are non-psychopaths. They call them non-psychopaths even though their scores on the test are far from normal. They do this because they want to hold on to hope that most of them can change.”
Dr. Reid Melloy, a forensic psychologist with years of experience working with criminals has a method of classifying them that I think is more correct. He has four groups, not two, based on the PCL-R, non-psychopaths, and mild, moderate and severe psychopathy. I do concede that the thugs that assaulted my student likely had the syndrome to varying degrees; and we know the ring leader is likely severely affected.
That gets me to a recent article that received a great deal of news coverage. In one Fox News article were comments from experts who in the past I have criticized for irresponsible public comments. The article discusses data from a study published in a top journal, it doesn’t give the title but it is, The Antisocial Brain: Psychopathy Matters a Structural MRI Investigation of Antisocial Male Violent Offenders.
The title should say, “the degree of psychopathy matters”. When you see stories like this you have to watch out because my colleagues have rotating definitions of psychopathy that they pull out depending on what they need to fit their data. In some studies like this one, they use a cut-off high PCL-R score. In other studies they separate offenders into groups depending on whether or not they show empathy and remorse. So groups may contain the same PCL-R score but be defined in terms of differing symptoms.
The study basically showed that higher scores on the PCL-R are associated with a higher likelihood of finding a shrunken “emotional brain”. Before you go writing me asking that your ex be forced to undergo an MRI which will prove the presence of psychopathy, let me tell you what is not in the news article. You cannot use an MRI scan to diagnose psychopathy.
A diagnostic test has to be sensitive, meaning that it picks up your ex and everyone else with the condition. Well we already know that there is mild, moderate and severe. So do we want the test to pick up the mild or the severe group? That will depend on what your ex actually scored on the PCL-R. I am sure that a “mild” case of psychopathy, does not make for a good life partner. That is why for the purposes of Love Fraud any comparison between “ASPD” and psychopathy is meaningless.
A diagnostic test also has to be specific meaning that only psychopaths show the abnormality. There is no test for psychopathy that is sensitive and specific enough to be useful. This article only shows us the obvious, that very high levels of psychopathy are more likely to be related to observable changes in the brain than are lower levels of psychopathy.
Since the brain produces behavior, their brains have to be different. The behavior they produce is different. All of the thugs who attacked my student to steal “without conscience” have something wrong with their brains.
Athena, I think the term,”supply” came from the research on the personality profiles of narcissists. (All spaths are narcissists, but not all narcissists are spaths, there are subtle differences, from what I understand). Narcissists have such a precarious hold on their sence of identity, that they need others to mirror who they are. That means, they create an image of themselves, and then cling to that image as if it were real. They need supply to continuiously up-hold that false image. They need us to “believe” in the mask they wear. So, when they love bomb us, and we are seeing an idealized image of our perfect lover, we are mirroring back to them, what they want to believe about themselves. The problem is, that they aren’t who they pretend to be, and when we start to figure out that they aren’t ALL THAT, and when we start to critisize or question, or when we get that gut instinct that something isn’t right, their whole sence of identity, and their whole self image is threatened. They become very angry, and that’s when they begin the dread D and D campaign. (Devalue and disgard) At this point we have out-lived our usefulness, to them, and we become a hinderence. When the mask slips, things get nasty.
Yes, supply is adoration, adulation and loving concern. It is all those things that normal people give to another that they love. The problem is, that N’s aren’t who they think they are, or who we think they are, and when we figure it out, they seek out new supply. They can only pull the wool over a victims eyes for so long.
I read a library book last winter, and I can’t tell you how much it triggered me. I felt like I was on the verge of tears for about a month. The name of the book was, “Eraced” and it may have had a sub-title. I can’t remember the name of the author. Sorry. But, it told the story of Scott and Lacey Peterson, and also the story of Mark and Lori Hacking, as well as some others.
It was about narcissistic (psychopathic?) husbands that wanted to erace thier wives…and did.
It took me back to a time when I was coming out of denial, and yet clinging to it with white knuckles.
I remembered standing on the side of a cliff with x hub, and having him step behind me, and the hackles raised up on my neck and wriling around to look in his eyes….I really had the feeling that he wanted to push me. I had another memory of x hub taking my car for a business trip, and leaving me the old station wagon to get back and forth to the University. It was a 40 minute drive, up and down through the hills, and we had a snowstorm that weekend…
the brakes didn’t work…..or was it just the ice?
I remember, about 2 years into my marriage, hearing about a sexual assault in our area, and I just wondered….
where did these intuitions come from?
Even if my husband wouldn’t have murdered me, I am very aware that he wanted to erase me, like a bad mistake.
Skylar, I even try to remember if I was sick, much. Did he ever try to poison me? I don’t think so. All I know is the wish was there. That I would just disappear. The greek or is it latin roots of the word, “abortion” is, to make disappear. He even said that to me….that it was time we did something about our abortion of a marriage. He told me that he thought he should take me out ion the back-yard and shoot me, to put me out of my misery….this, shortly after my Aphgahn hound disappeared. I had made the comment that I was only staying because I didn’t know how to get my dog home with me….We lived as far away from my home as is possible in the continental US. After my dog vanished, he said, “you can go now.”
Yeah. My husband wanted to erase me.
Athena,
sam vaknin said that narcissists don’t have enemies or friends, they only have supply. That means adoration or hatred, they are both supply. They both fuel the drama.
Supply then would be a cast of supporting characters and an audience, anyone who enables the “show to go on”.
As Kim said, they need people to mirror them. That’s what an infant needs. Their very existence needs to be affirmed. Without other human beings they don’t exist.
Yeah, I wonder too what a spath would do on a desert island. Most spaths I know need to have the TV on all the time.
Personally, I think the emotion can be in response to an animal or anything that they can have power over. Otherwise, why would they kill and torture animals?
They envy everyone and everything for having an independent being.
Kim,
it’s important to have a definition for the words emotions and feelings.
Donald Nathanson (as cited in Carnes & Adams, 2002) explains the difference between the words affect, feelings and emotion:
Affect is an instinctive response to stimuli.
Feelings are the awareness of that affect and the meaning we attach to it.
Emotion is a memory of all those feelings when we experienced the affective states.
For my spath, I know he had virtually no affective response to stimuli. He felt nothing when others would be startled. Action thriller movies didn’t have any affect on him.
He therefore had no feelings. He couldn’t attach meaning to something that had no affect on him. Although when his stomach felt acid indigestion or his heart sped up, he attached the meaning that he was “sick” rather than nervous or anxious. So that response was being bypassed elsewhere.
As far as emotions, I’d say he was definitely living in the past. Reaching far back into his childhood when he WAS able to feel, he took all that resentment toward his mom and attached it to me. Every person he met, he envied just as he did when he was a child. He told me he “hated humanity”. To me that tells me he envied all human beings.
He’s beyond sick.
http://www.amazon.com/Erased-Missing-Women-Murdered-Wives/dp/0787996394#reader_0787996394Okay. I googled the book. Here it is
Skylar., and somewhere I read that psychopaths don’t have freinds they have victims and accomplices.
Kim,
eww. I know exactly the feeling, but your words still gave me chills.
erase. Yeah, my spath had a hangar at the airport. 2 hangars down was a former US marshall. He told me that the marshall’s job had been as an “eraser” in the witness protection program.
Then my sister got engaged to get married in 1999. They wanted the wedding in hawaii. Unbeknownst to me, her fiance was a minion of my spath. A cop that had been a meth addict a decade before. He was part of the gang rape from 1991.
So anyway, my spath being as controlling as he was, didn’t want me going to hawaii, but what was he gonna do?
So he said he would never ever speak to either my sis or her husband again. He said, “And I know just the wedding present I’m going to give them.” He got 2 tee-shirts from the US Marshall. The shirts said, “Federal witness protection program – YOU DON’T KNOW ME.” He said that as far as he was concerned, he didn’t know either of them anymore for offending him by taking me to hawaii for their wedding.
Crock of shit. It was a tell. When my BIL saw the shirts, he grinned from ear to ear and even had me take pictures of him and my sis holding up the teeshirts. We all thought it was funny, but only spath and he knew what the tell meant.
fast forward to 2009 and I realized who my BIL was. He’s very distinctive looking.
Eraser. yep, brings back memories.
So your spath was full of envy that you went to Hawaii?
How ridiculous.
So the supply is adoration or hatred. They feed on either.
That’s important to know. And that’s why gray rock is effective, more so than simply no contact, which they might interpret as hatred.
Hmmmm.
No contact is no supply. They can’t feed off you if you withdraw all emotion from them. They need to know they hold emotional control over you. Thet get a nut over enotional control…any enotion is supply. If youy swoon, they are powerful. if you feel anger, they are poweful. if you are confused, they are powerful, if you feel remorseful. they are powerful. If you are sorry, they are powerful. If you are jealous thet are poweful/ If you feel hopeless, they are poweful. They need to make you feel something….anything,,,,,to feel they have any influence at all.
That’s right – no contact is no supply. They can’t feed off your emotions and/or use you and manipulate you anymore. If you just refuse to participate and gray rock them, they lose their power and control. They DO get great pleasure in throwing people off their balance and PSYCHOLOGICALLY messing with you.
So, the ONLY REMEDY is no contact at all.
Good bye. Done with the ‘roadshow’; adios; have a nice life…
Bye bye now…
They love making others HURT over them and they do get off on it. They do. THEY LIVE FOR THE DRAMA.
Dupey
Athena,
There are some mental health professionals who think it is possible to help a P via a number of things, primarily therapy at an early age (I think that’s it, but don’t quote me.)
What troubles me about that, a lot, is the ability that Ps have to adopt behavior, mirror back expectations, and then fool everybody. So, what’s the point in all that? To make a P more “normal”? What, in that case, is normal and whose criteria are used to define that? Really arbitrary stuff, in my opinion, and horribly scary.
Kim,
That is absolutely appalling what you husband did to you. I am so sorry that you were subjected to such mind games.
Sky,
I don’t think there is much education on the subject of Ps at all in this world so I don’t understand how you can claim that the education is not working.
Most people don’t know what we know here. They’re still seeing Ps are shifty-eyed, creepy people who are serial killers and murderers.
Except for enlightened places like LF, where have you ever seen a major push (or pockets of people understanding and therefore getting it) that Ps are charming, likeable, and posses traits that we admire which is why they get away with so much? That’s only part of the education. The other part is the devastation that they cause and how they achieve that.
At least for me, when we start seeing those themes in offerings from the entertainment industry or these points are mentioned as a matter of routine in news reports, then I will say OK, now we have the education in place.
But it isn’t there, which is my point about these researchers and other mental health professionals. What are they doing offering “hope” regarding Ps? What on Earth are they talking about?
What I said before, and I’ll say again below, pretty well sums it up for me.
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“Hope for whom? Do the Ps even want help? Or hope? Aren’t they pretty well satisfied with themselves?
“It sounds to me that hope is for the afflicted, but what about the many affected?
“Isn’t holding out hope that they might be able to help ‘one or two’ Ps, as opposed to warning and helping countless people who are adversely impacted by P behavior and end up emotionally harmed or with devastating consequences, rather short-sighted?…
“…what about ignoring the harm done to the general public because they hold out hope for ‘just a few’?
“Isn’t that like trying to search for and rescue the handful of people hidden in the caves high up on the hillsides while ignoring the people in the valley who are being swept away in the flood?”
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Like Athena, I kept going back with the hope that maybe this time something had changed. I had that hope because I was told that was possible – by the mental health professionals.
Now, I can maintain no contact and I have no expectations of anything changing on their end ever. I’ve stopped expending any energy towards that. My life is so much richer and fulfilling now because I am not blindly following advice that was offerring a hope that was absolutely worthless. With NC, they don’t know what is going on with me. My hope is they will eventually forget about me entirely except as a distant memory of whatever happened to what’s her name?