This past week I was talking on the telephone with my student and research assistant when he was mugged by a group of 5-7 thugs. One hit him from behind, knocking him down and another punched him in the abdomen. Ironically, among the items stolen was a copy of “Without Conscience” by Robert Hare.
Yesterday, my student asked me, “Those guys in the group who do have empathy and guilt, how do they feel about doing this? What makes them do it?” To which I replied, “I don’t think they feel a thing. They are likely all psychopathic (sociopaths). No one wants to admit just how many of them there are. So they draw an artificial line based on the PCL-R (a psychopathy test) and say these thugs are psychopaths and these thugs are non-psychopaths. They call them non-psychopaths even though their scores on the test are far from normal. They do this because they want to hold on to hope that most of them can change.”
Dr. Reid Melloy, a forensic psychologist with years of experience working with criminals has a method of classifying them that I think is more correct. He has four groups, not two, based on the PCL-R, non-psychopaths, and mild, moderate and severe psychopathy. I do concede that the thugs that assaulted my student likely had the syndrome to varying degrees; and we know the ring leader is likely severely affected.
That gets me to a recent article that received a great deal of news coverage. In one Fox News article were comments from experts who in the past I have criticized for irresponsible public comments. The article discusses data from a study published in a top journal, it doesn’t give the title but it is, The Antisocial Brain: Psychopathy Matters a Structural MRI Investigation of Antisocial Male Violent Offenders.
The title should say, “the degree of psychopathy matters”. When you see stories like this you have to watch out because my colleagues have rotating definitions of psychopathy that they pull out depending on what they need to fit their data. In some studies like this one, they use a cut-off high PCL-R score. In other studies they separate offenders into groups depending on whether or not they show empathy and remorse. So groups may contain the same PCL-R score but be defined in terms of differing symptoms.
The study basically showed that higher scores on the PCL-R are associated with a higher likelihood of finding a shrunken “emotional brain”. Before you go writing me asking that your ex be forced to undergo an MRI which will prove the presence of psychopathy, let me tell you what is not in the news article. You cannot use an MRI scan to diagnose psychopathy.
A diagnostic test has to be sensitive, meaning that it picks up your ex and everyone else with the condition. Well we already know that there is mild, moderate and severe. So do we want the test to pick up the mild or the severe group? That will depend on what your ex actually scored on the PCL-R. I am sure that a “mild” case of psychopathy, does not make for a good life partner. That is why for the purposes of Love Fraud any comparison between “ASPD” and psychopathy is meaningless.
A diagnostic test also has to be specific meaning that only psychopaths show the abnormality. There is no test for psychopathy that is sensitive and specific enough to be useful. This article only shows us the obvious, that very high levels of psychopathy are more likely to be related to observable changes in the brain than are lower levels of psychopathy.
Since the brain produces behavior, their brains have to be different. The behavior they produce is different. All of the thugs who attacked my student to steal “without conscience” have something wrong with their brains.
strongawoman: I agree with you, what you said:
“In my experience, they know exactly what they’re doing. Perhaps she enjoys your perplexedness? ”they are very twisted. The psychopathic is as cunning as an old fox. The psychopath deliberately manipulates others for his or her own gain.”
Absolutely. I absolutely agree with you. ALL THE TIME THEY DO. Not just once in a while, but ALL THE TIME. Even when they are sleeping, I think. Always plotting and scheming.
You told it like it is, Sister. Absolutely.
Dupey
Thanks athena I will have a look. Sounds interesting.
Dupey, thanks for the thumbs up. Right back at ya sister …lol
Xx
Thank you for this post. Some very good discussion resulted also. I know that science must use very rigid methodologies to come to a conclusion about a hypothesis and I respect that. We were not in any dire straits to go to the moon (though some politicos might have argued otherwise), but I feel we are at great risk of missing the forest for the trees on toxic personalities and helping people that are in or headed for trouble with individuals and a great number of us are at risk for individuals who run companies and head political parties. With an eye to the scientific community to help the cause when it can, I think it is up to our boots on the ground to affect the momentum of our collective futures.
Thanks to Donna for this extraordinary website.
Tox Avoider,
your post hits to the heart of the matter.
There is nothing more important, IMO, than a dis-ease that has been causing pain and sorrow to billions since the dawn of humanity. Yet, part of that disease is denial, so it seems we are all infected.
I think that a close encounter with evil is like a fight with a virulent virus that leaves us within an inch of our lives, but that spath attack also creates an immunity beyond what most people have. It wipes away denial to a large extent.
Sad, though, because denial did make for a nice place to visit, though I’m glad not to live there anymore.
I agree with what Tox Avoider and Skylar both say. I am trying to be boots on the ground and talk about my experience somewhat openly.
I recently spent time with an acquaintance who is a social worker in a public health hospital. As he said himself, most of the population he works with has Cluster B personality disorders. He told me a story of a relationship gone wrong that had many hallmarks, including cheating and the perpetrator moving on quickly and regularly. Nonetheless, he couldn’t believe that I had gotten mixed up with a spath. It couldn’t have been that bad! I must be exaggerating! The sad part was that I ended up feeling ashamed that I had an experience that I had labeled as spathy rather than just a “bad ending.” Of course, it’s not the first time this has happened and I’m lucky to have a lot of people close to me that do understand.
The denial is very strong out there.
Sparklehorse:
This has also been my experience over and over so I have learned to shut up unfortunately as it’s not healthy to hold this stuff in. But I do have certain people I can talk to about it when I am having a downer type day.
People just don’t get it and when it hasn’t happened to them, they really can’t relate. My experience was for a very short time, but very psychologically damaging. Sometimes I even question myself about that until I Google and read and read and read and everytime become validated when I read how damaging a run in with these people can be.
Blessing and hugs to you.
I’m sorry but this information is incorrect. Mri’s can and do show that psychopathy is real. Dr. James Fallon, Adrian Raine, Kent Kiehl, Adam Perkins all do mri testing for psychopathy and there are some genetic markers as well.
I knew a woman who had a son who was a harmful psychopath. This woman was in a position of authority where she could get him and his friends off when they damaged property or people. Rather than protect others, she protected her son. She did much harm to many before her son was finally imprisoned. I believe this author has a son who is possibly genetically similar to his father (per her book). I myself unknowingly also gave birth to genetic psychopaths. (I didn’t even know what this WAS! What psychopathy REALLY was!) And as a parent of children who will never love or care about anyone else, and will harm others when given the chance, I would rather help the potential vicitms of psychopaths. My children and their father will never change and they quite like who they are (as psychopaths do) and they love to cause strife and chaos and stir up trouble. It is simply how their brains work.
There is a new branch of law that is set up to deal with this (neuroscience and the law) because we now KNOW that many things are beyond our control. Psychopathy is one of them. We can train up a person who has the brain functioning of a psychopath to act right, but it does nothing to change that they are still a psychopath and cannot process the emotions of love, gratefulness, guilt or shame but do process emotions such as jealousy, greed, and display a grotesque form of glee.
Dr. Robert Hare pointed out in an interview with NPR that we wrongly used to believe in the “blank slate” theory which basically says we all start out as a blank slate and whatever is written on this slate by others in ones life is what creates the child. He went on to say this was very untrue and I’d like to add, WHAT A BURDEN THIS HAS PUT ON US PARENTS! That we are responsible for everything not completely perfect about our children. We now know better due to these types of tests (mri, genetic etc.) and I for one am grateful for them.
Timtimmy, I know very little about MRI results, and I’m sorry that you’re connected with sociopathy, in any way. The only thing that I DO know is that sociopathy is a part of the “Human Condition.” It has always existed, it will always exist, and genome mapping and scientific data aside, there is no way to prevent sociopathy from developing in human beings.
If there were an accurate, fool-proof, and irrefutable way to determine if an infant was going to develop into a sociopath, then what? There is no answer that is moral or ethical. The only answer is education – honest, truthful education that does not preclude that “all people are good, at heart.” Blanket statements and beliefs are ill advised, as they often leave doors open that would have been better left closed and locked.
Brightest blessings
Yes, It is part of the human condition.
I remembered a saying today, “envy is the root of all evil”. It turns out that my memory was wrong, and the proper saying is that “jealousy is the root of all evil”. In recent times, it’s been transitioned to “money is the root of all evil”.
In any case, I think envy and jealousy are largely the same.
And what have been been learning? In some of the recent learnings here, there is an assertion that shame and envy are at the core of psychopathy.
So there you go.
The human condition is to have good and bad.
Angel and devil.
Good and evil.
Athena
As I said in my book, Evil Eyes, A Daughter’s Memoir, my father actually admitted to me he has no feelings. He said he learned from a young age how to copy feelings to certain situations. As he did that, he became extremely manipulative (my opinion – he didn’t say that part). And he had no reservations about stealing, writing bad cheques, beating his wives (torturing, really), to bank robbery and rape.
My mother, on the other hand, would never admit to ANY wrong-doing on her part. Blame blame blame and rage rage rage at others who may not give her her entitlement. Plus, she shamelessly preferred one child over another and really hated me. I spoke up (and speak up) too often for her liking. She smear campaigned me to anyone who would listen (and a lot did) and she did so much damage to my self esteem growing up that I suffer with post traumatic stress disorder (as a lot of “supply” of sociopaths do).
I think there are too many of us out there…the supply and the sociopaths I mean. I am reminded of the song (can’t think of the title)….”some of them want to abuse you; some of us want to be abused…”
Some of us are conditioned to be abused. Over and over and over.