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Are all psychopaths/sociopaths criminals and are all criminals sociopaths?

When Donna and I talked with Dr. Hare last week, he addressed the question of whether or not all psychopaths are criminals. He also sent us a paper he wrote on this topic. He said that it is possible for a person to score high on the PCL-R and not have an arrest record and not to have committed felonious crimes. He insisted, though, that “antisocial behavior” is central to the disorder and is found in all people who score highly on the PCL-R. The paper he wrote has the following quote regarding Dr. Hervey Cleckley, the psychiatrist who wrote the first book describing psychopathy.

Cleckley (1976) noted that he was “in complete accord” with the description of the psychopath as “simply a(n) ”¦ antisocial individual” (p. 370). “Not only is the psychopath undependable, but also in more active ways he cheats, deserts, annoys, brawls, fails, and lies without any apparent compunction. He will commit theft, forgery, adultery, fraud, and other deeds for astonishingly small stakes, and under much greater risks of being discovered than will the ordinary scoundrel.”

If all psychopaths/sociopaths are by definition antisocial, then are all individuals who commit antisocial acts sociopaths/psychopaths? As described in the statement above, sociopaths/psychopaths are distinguished by how readily they commit antisocial acts. As the DSM puts it, a sociopath has a pervasive pattern of cheating, lying and disregarding the rights of others. Other recent scientific writers have equated “career criminals” to psychopaths, the idea being that career criminality indicates a pervasive pattern, not just a one or two poor choices.

Since many antisocial behaviors are also illegal, separating criminality from sociopathy/psychopathy is not that straight forward in practice. Where would we find a sociopath who does not engage in criminal deeds? Two groups set out to identify college students with psychopathic personality traits. They used a battery of psychological tests. On the basis of fancy statistics they identified a group of people they called “aberrant self promoters” (ISPs) These people promoted their own self-interest without regard to the rights of others.

Interestingly, as a group ISPs (like psychopaths) are characterized by the combination of narcissism and antisocial behavior. A close look at the group also revealed that they were not particularly law abiding citizens. One of the studies actually measured levels of psychopathy in aberrant self promoters. The average score for the group was 15, well below the cut off of 30 needed to diagnose “psychopathy.” It is also well below the average PCL-R score found in incarcerated criminals. This comparison indicates that many criminals are significantly psychopathic and that their levels of psychopathy exceed those of community “successful psychopaths.” The authors estimated the prevalence of ASP to be 10 percent of the non-incarcerated population. That is a lot of people who are significantly narcissistic and antisocial—but not necessarily felons.

Over the last three weeks I have discussed sociopathy as the combination of narcissistic personality traits and antisocial behavior. I can now say a few more things about psychotherapy and behavior therapy for sociopaths. Most therapy is aimed at reducing the antisocial behaviors that are so central to the disorder. Therapy has been found to be effective in reducing antisocial behaviors in people who are at the lower end of psychopathy/sociopathy. The high end folks are characterized by greater treatment resistance and more difficulty with change.

At the higher end of psychopathy, we see people who are very narcissistic and very antisocial. This combination is especially treatment resistant because grandiose people never think they have a problem.

I also heard again from one of our readers who is struggling to break away from a spouse who is psychopathic and in prison. If you are struggling to break away from a very harmful, antisocial, narcissistic person please help yourself by spending time with some loving, prosocial people. If you do not have anything to contrast the sociopath’s behavior to, it is easy to forget how abnormal they are. Even according to the most lenient criteria, psychopaths at most make up 10 percent of the population. Ask yourself if you want to spend the rest of your life with someone who is at heart, worse than an “ordinary scoundrel.”


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80 Comments on "Are all psychopaths/sociopaths criminals and are all criminals sociopaths?"

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Liane, you wrote, “If you are struggling to break away from a very harmful, antisocial, narcissistic person please help yourself by spending time with some loving, prosocial people.”

Great advice. So simple. Straightforward. And true.

When I was with the sociopath, the further I got from my true self, the more I began to believe he was all I was worth. And, the less time I wanted to spend with ‘normal’ as you describe, prosocial, people.

I remember in those last months looking at couples who were ‘normal’ and thinking, what’s wrong with them. Don’t they see it’s all a lie.

What I couldn’t accept was that I was the lie. By staying with him, I was making my life a lie.

Had I stepped back and contrasted what was real in the normal world, versus what was happening in my world, I would have given myself the opportunity to measure my perceived reality against reality — what was real and true and acceptable.

What was happening to me wasn’t acceptable. I just never took the time or opportunity to ask myself the question — do I want to spend the rest of my life with someone who is at heart, worse than an ‘ordinary scoundrel’.

Thanks!

ML

Good, good Post, Liane!

I also agree with what ML wrote, being with them 24/7 and not being exposed to normal people, or discounting normal people as “not getting it” makes you able to be “brainwashed” to think that the P is the only sane one in the world. Looking back, I can see that my Bio-father “brainwashed” me to belive him, to see life through his eyes as “right” and that “normal” people were all wrong.

As far as “all criminals” being psychopathic, I think that most if not all of the “habitual” criminals are somewhere high on the psychopathic trait list. I also believe that all “free world” psychopaths that have never been incarcertated have either been very careful to skate around breaking the letter of the law, OR they have just been cagey enough to do it on a “white collar” level that is not easily prosecuted. The low end of the group that “robs liquor stores” usually eventually get caught, but the “higher end” Psychopaths (the CEO of ENRON for example) are just savy enough to most of the time not get caught out in their “white collar” crimes or to just get a “slap on the wrist” if they do get caught. They get up far enough that they have enough political, financial, or social power to “get away with” their crimes. Unfortunately, I think that “level” of psychopath does more damage to society than the guy who robs the liquor store (assuming he doesn’t kill the clerk).

I am an advocate of “three strikes and you are out” criminal laws that put habitual felony offenders in prison for life without parole. Unfortunately, the prison are so full right now that even the Trojan HOrse Psychopath pled down to a “minor” felony and they were trying to parole him again. The man already has 3 separte sexuall offenses against children, high violence, etc etc. and meets all the criteria plus some to be a “habitual” offender with violent tendencies and attempted murder—-and if I hadn’t raised hell with the parole board they would have ILLEGALLY let him out. After they knew that there would be a screaming woman on the capitol steps with the media, they canceled his ILLEGAL parole which violated the statutes of Arkansas by putting a sexual offender into a half way house (the only place he had to go to).

When he was a “non registered sexual offender” (which is an AUTOMATIC 4 year sentence) I was frustrated at every point in getting him arrested for that, and even after he was arrested for that, that charge was dropped in a plea agreement. Only through threats of media attention did I even get him “assessed” for violence rate after him being in the state 10 months—and there is a 5,000 sexual offender BACK UP of unassessed offenders, that until they are “assessed” are FREE TO MOVE AMONG US WITHOUT THEIR ADDRESSES SHOWING UP ON THE LIST. Since the agency in charge of this for Arkansas is only doing about 5,000 assessments per year, and there are about 5,000 new assessments added each year, they are a minimum of one year behind and NO CHANCE OF EVER CATCHING UP.

When I took the copy of the TEXAS mug shot and internet posting of him around to the neighborhood where I had rented him a house, there were indications that he was already “priming” a 12 year old boy for abuse. The neighbors there had no way of knowing that this man was a 3-time convicted sexual offender because Arkansas wouldn’t post his name or photo until after he was assessed IN ARKANSAS, though he had been assessed in Texas as HIGHLY VIOLENT AND LIKELY TO REOFFEND. So if an offender moves from state to state, they get a “pass” for up to a year of having to register PUBLICLY.

My personal opinion is that EVERY person who is CONVICTED of ANY CRIME, from a traffic ticket to murder should have that posted PUBLICLY AVAILABLE. Arkansas DOES post the picture of every INMATE in their prisons and what the crime is, but once they are out, they fall off the radar. The victim advocate office in Arkansas has been very helpful in notifying me about potential hearings, and releases. It has been a very frustrating task to keep up with it all and to make the courts, and the parole boards adhere to the laws that are in place, much less, ones that NEED TO BE IN PLACE. My local sheriff, on the other hand, has done all that he can do within the law to protect my family.

When I spend time with “normal, prosocial” friends, I end up feeling like I don’t belong somehow. I have a good friend who is happily married for 19 years, has 2 beautiful children, a beautiful home and everytime I am around her and her family, I can feel the love and happiness. I am extreemly happy for her. I just feel like when I do visit, that somehow I am dirtying up her home. She knows nothing of what I have been through, I haven’t told her, how could she ever understand and I don’t want her to look at me with pity in her eyes. So, how do I get from feeling “dirty” and wanting to dive under the table to feeling like…maybe I am just as good as anyone else and hold my head up high. (not better than, but on equal ground)

rperk,

You ARE as good as anyone else. In fact, you are probably exceptionally loving, kind, tolerant, compassionate.

We have learned that many of these wonderful things about as are in part what makes us such good victims of pathological abusers.

But, now we are loving, kind, tolerant, compassionate and WISER.

Even if these traits were part of what made us vulnerable, we have to learn from what happened and to not feel dirty or stupid, or less than because of what happened to us.

These traits that many of us share.. are still GOOD THINGS!
Now we can use these traits to help people who are in need of some love and kindness… like children, the elderly, a neighbor going through a loss, a lost dog. hehehe… yeah.. a Dog deserves way more from us than those pathological black holes. :o)

I think I know how you feel though. I am not in the married, with kids, own a home, money in the bank club. I feel left out. But I guess I have to embrace that I am a complete and worthy human being even without all that. And I have nothing to apologize for.

:o)

Aloha, Thank you. You are so right. When I read things, I hear that “ding ding ding”, sorta like “duh”, why didn’t I think of that. I think it has to do in part that I am 5′, there is no more and things just go wizzing right over my head. Sometimes tho, if I jump quickly and high enough, I catch ’em. And if I start holding my head up, then maybe i could make it to 5’1 and feel better about me. Thank you…

Perky Am I going to have to get Oxy’s skillit? One thing I know is yes I am good and that’s what (he) saw. Doesnt mean we have to stop being who we are (good), we just have to be aware that there is a predator on every corner lookin for us good people. Stop beatin your self up. As far as I am concerend they don’t come any better than PERKY!!!!!!!!

Skillet?????crap. ok,ok,ok. u win.

Right On Henry!!!! xxx

As always these articles are of a great source of information (knowledge) but also of personal (emotional) pain.

“The authors estimated the prevalence of ASP to be 10 percent of the non-incarcerated population. That is a lot of people who are significantly narcissistic and antisocial—but not necessarily felons.”

This is something that I saw in my ex P some often. My ex P would do things that for a honest person would be construed as “illegal” such as using a alias or lying about a injury to collect money or something with little or no conscience. In fact many times I would beg her to stop fearing that it would get her and us into trouble (legally) and cause us financial hardship. One time I told her straight out that “I wanted no part of this”. Of course this matter little to her and in fact I believe she saw me more or less as getting in her way!

“At the higher end of Psychopathy, we see people who are very narcissistic and very antisocial. This combination is especially treatment resistant because grandiose people never think they have a problem.”

This is something that has now for years cause me to lose hope in her ever getting the help she needs. My own personal cross which I bear today! It is the antisocial aspect of this disorder that causes me the most concern and fear for she own safety and personal welfare. Knowing that someday she might just cross over too much and found herself in even more “hot water” then she is in today.

Dear Perky!!!

((((Perky))))) Sweetheart, when someone has been “beaten down” over and over and over again and then told that the reason they have been beaten is because they deserve it, they are no good, by a P—sometimes that person will become like a sweet little Beagle dog. I don’t know if you are very familiar with this breed of dog, but they are SOOOOOO sweet. I have never known one that wasn’t so loving, kind, sweet, etc. they are just so LOVING. If a bad person owns one of these dogs and beats or kicks them, they do not become aggressive back, instead, they roll over on their back and put their tail between their legs to show submission, and they assume that the “god” (human) that beats them is always right and that they did something (they are not sure what) that made the deserve this awful treatment, and they do their best to belly crawl to seek forgiveness for being worthless.

Other breeds of dogs that are beaten and mistreated, and have differnt dispositions will become aggressive and violent.

People are just like different breeds of dogs in many ways. Some if they are mistreated will be like the sweet little Beagles and others will become like angry wolves.

It is obvious to me that you started out the sweetest of humans, and were “beaten” by the P, but BECAUSE YOU ARE SWEET, HUMBLE, GOOD, you responded to the beatings like the sweet and good little Beagles would—you somehow feel that you must have deserved that horrible treatment—Perky, there is no one in the world who DESERVED to be beaten down like we have all been beaten down.

You were beaten BECAUSE you were wonderful and good, not because you were bad or deserved it. YOU DESERVE THE BEST. Now, you get up off your belly and STAND TALL–walk like you are THE QUEEN, PROUD, AND WELL. NO ONE is more worthy than you of GOOD TREATMENT.

Do not ever be ashamed that you do not “have” what others have, whether that is love or money or talent or whatever it is!

YOU DESERVE THE BEST—and that SURE WAS NOT HIM! ((((hugs)))) Some day he will “take a swiing” at someone who isn’t as sweet and loving as you are, and he will get back what HE DESERVES—-THE BIG SKILLET!!!

Dear Perky

I know exactly how you feel. I’ve had a lifetime of people telling me I’m not good enough.

When I was a child my mother often told me I was rubbish, nothing to be proud of and that I was just like my father (who she hated). I always thought I was a huge burden and not worth much so I was astonished when my elder sister told me a few years ago (I’m 36 now) that I was a really sweet and well-behaved child. Fortunately my relationship with my mother has changed over the years (after many fights and much drama) and now we get on very well, have quite a close loving relationship in fact…as long as I maintain the boundaries and she continues making the effort to toe the line. I think that shows there is still hope for some people.

When I grew up I went to work for my brother who spent the next 17 years picking at my confidence and the sense of self-worth that I’d managed to build up. I was never good enough, no matter how hard I tried. I endured being shouted at, gossiped about, having my character “analysed” and found wanting…so much else it would take too long to type.

And then I got involved with a psychopath! Can I pick them or what? His technique was more subtle than theirs but in the end he left me with the same feeling – that being me wasn’t good enough somehow.

I still struggle with feelings of inferiority. I still have a sense of not being good enough. I suppose that’s why I’ve always gone out of my way to help everyone around me…so I can “earn” their affection and love. Just being me never seemed like enough. Intellectually I know that’s not true. I know that I am good enough…more than good enough…and I am more than worthy of being loved. But I haven’t yet grasped that emotionally. I suppose that deep-seated belief in myself will come with time and effort.

Oxy & Odette,
Thank you for being so understanding. As Odette says, I know all of this intellectually, but my emotional state says different. It is hard when two parts of yourself fight each other.

I was taught as a child to not look in the mirror and tell yourself you are pretty, cute, whatever—this is conceited. Do not ask “why”, the answer will always be “because I said so damnit”. Children are to be seen, but not heard. No public affection…EVER. My dad and step mom lived 5 miles out of town, (country town). They would always “go into town” for coffee leaving us kids alone in the boonies, they would do this for most of the 6 weeks we were to visit, I would want to scream, “Please take us with you” but did not dare. That was just the way things were. My mom was the same way, always at her boyfriends house, leaving us at home. Thus, the feeling like you were “less than” or not good enough. And, you didn’t dare speak up or mom would give the cold shoulder or daddy would give you that “look”. So, I learned how to “stuff” my emotions back inside of me and be quiet.

I don’t blame either one of them for who I am today because as of 18 years old, I began to be responsible for who I am and my choices. I just wish I would have out grown the feelings of not being good enough. I also feel as though I need to “earn” peoples affection. I truly am working on these feelings. “Follow your head not your heart” sorta thing.

My son turned out to be a fine young man, for 18 years I was a single parent and I know that had everything to do with me, my morals and values. He would not have learned to be the good, kind, caring (sometimes a little snot) person he is today if I had not shown him part of the way. (See,…I can do positive).

Dear Perky,

Well, that post answers a lot of questions about your self esteem, doesn’t it. Apparently you were the child of two Narcissistic or psychopathic people yourself and that is the way they treat their children. It does leave some scars on our souls, but now that you are an adult, this is the thing that you have to work on. There are many sites on the net about ACON (adult children of narcissists) I think you might do well to google some of them and see what information you can get.

BEing an ACON is almost a “season ticket” to becoming a “victim” of the psychopaths because the way they treat us seems so “normal”—just the way mom and dad treated us. We fall hook, line and sinker for the “honeymoon” stage cause we have never been treated so nicely before and it makes us think we have found “Heaven on earth” and then the abuse starts—well, everyone treated us that way, so….and so on. You know the rest of the story.

My P-bio-father was a BIG TIME P, my mother is a dyed in the wool TOXIC ENABLER, and I have a family history going back generations of Ps and enablers. Now though, I am going to STOP the CYCLE with me. IT ENDS WITH ME. I am glad that your son didn’t continue the cycle, so maybe your “family heritage” will end with you.

No child deserves to be treated that way, but because we don’t have anything else to show us what “real parental love” is we assume that the verbal and emotional (and sometimes physical) abuse we were given is “normal.”

We have to educate ourselves emotionally and intellectually, and that’s a difficult task, but it CAN BE DONE. So, hang in there! Keep working on healing. A lot of the things the P did to you will bring out some of these old fears, pains, etc. but it gives you a chance to “clean out the closet” and sweep up all the supressed pain and emotions. In the end, the P-experience may set you free and on a better road than you have ever been on. I actually feel now that this P-experience, as painful as it was, and still is sometimes, is a BLESSING FROM GOD that FREED me from all these old wounds. ((((hugs))))

Until I realized what my mother is I wasn’t able to process all the other wounds, the losses. Now that I am NC from her, I am making BIG STEPS toward healing. I’m working on getting the bitterness against her out of my heart, accepting that she is what she is, and isn’t going to change, she did what she did, I can’t change the past, but I am SURE AS HECK GONNA CHANGE THE FUTURE! STARTING WITH TODAY.

It’s too bad we can’t see ourselves through the eyes of many folks that we come in daily contact with.

I know that when I meet a genuinely kind, sweet, sincere person that they have a powerful effect on me. They leave an indelible mark on my heart and I think of them quite often, even if our chance meeting was short.

These wonderful people are constant reminders of the beauty and the good that is all over this great big planet Earth.

I have chosen to view myself through the compassionate, merciful, loving eyes of the Lord. He loves and accepts me just the way I am, because he created me this way. I am beautiful in his eyes.

My gentle, caring, empathetic, compassionate nature is my solid strength and not my weakness. That goes for you all, including you, Perky.

You have risen above the terrible experiences of your past and maintained your loving beautiful spirit through the grief and sorrow. Please don’t forget how powerful and strong you are. And incredibly wonderful. **hugs**

Dear Sweet Janie,

As usual you are so incredibly poetic and so right on! YES!!!!! You know I think some of us have all kinds of self esteem issues, either from a psychopathic or narcissistic parent(s) or something else and when we get blindsided by the Ps it crushes our spirit even more. Building up our own self esteem, and seeing ourselves for the remarkable people that we are is so difficult for me at least, and I would guess, many of us.

I know about myself sometimes (frequently) when I do something, I pick at the flaws, rather than seeing what a remarkable thing I have accomplished. Just like in the years we have been here at the farm, it had gone back to “brush” and ruin and now, compared to then, it looks like a park or a golf course and when people come here they rave about how beautiful it is etc. Yet, when I look out across it I see the things that still need doing, a fence wire not quite straight, or a weed up by a fence, etc. rather than focus on the POSITIVE accomplishements. I’m aware of this and I try to reframe my focus, but with so much going on in my head, sometimes I let this slide and go back to being “negative”—thtnks for pointing out the POSITIVE, I’m gonna make that THIS WEEK’S PROJECT—-FOCUS ON THE POSITIVE, COUNT MY BLESSINGS, AND QUIT THINKING ABOUT THE THINGS STILL LEFT TO DO. ((((hugs))))) and thanks, Janie!

good morning friends and good night. im still awake from yesterday at 7pm bc im at work. its just one of those days were i cant image how everything we shared and had together he just up and moved on. already having another girlfriend. i shouldt be shocked its the same girl he was cheating on me with. its just the shock of it. how do you just get all comfy with someone new in less then two months. its such an unbelievalbe feeling that someone can be that way. its like he is continuing what we were or was with her. the funny thing is he denys that he is dating her. i read and read all this books about these bad people and i get it. just accepting that i didt mean anything to him for two years, that for two years he was just playing a game with me. going along with me, stringing me along. how can people be so heartless?? how can you share a bed with me for two years and then once iam gone share it with someone else. my mind just doest wrap around that. how do you give yourself to more then one person at a time? how does that not feel odd? sorry just rambling on this early morning.

Blondie I don’t think we ever wrap our head’s around that. It would be impossible for a normal loving caring person with good moral’s, value’s and a conscience to do such a thing. He is not normal, he is a Sociopath. All the analyzing in the world and we will never understand why, I guess we have to accept that – that is what they do and just move on and stay away from people that are so strange and evil…

Blondie, my ex. went straight onto someone else within a month after he and I had a very intense 14 month relationship – that said everything to me – that deep down, he really COULDNT care for me – and that really hurt. He even sent a message through a mutual acquaintaince to ‘tell me’ that he had found a girlfriend who was 13 years younger – it worked, I was and still am deeply hurt.

See Henry, I notice that there are more men coming to this site.

Beverly – My X moved in with a guy 40 I am 53. I think that hurt’s our ego regardless of what label we put on it….

Yes, because by being younger, they had one over us from the start – but it depends what side of the coin you are looking. If its the wisdom of being 53, I think I would rather stick with THAT. Hugs. xxx

I agree Henry. I sometimes think that they move on to younger people hoping the young un’s are not wiser and won’t catch on to the fraud as quickly as us “more seasoned” people…maybe…

yes and we know they are not (in love) with these younger victim’s that does help….lol

Good observation reperk. Of course, they think the younger ones are less worldly. Right On !!

Hey Henry, that has perked my self esteem up no end. Thank you RPerk.

and we realize they are emotionally 6 or 7 and screwed up what the f— we are just fortunate not to have to baby sit any more

Yea, but Henry, you and me, were caring from the child that we carry inside. That is what made us fall for them in such a STRONG way. xxx

Henry, we both said that felt a strong paternal/maternal pull towards them to want to caretake them. Am I right?? x

I love nature, but I have a big really hairy a…d spider running around my lounge!!

yes you are right I did I did I did

but I didn’t pursue him he pursued me because he needed taken care of the whole thing is screwed my next bf is going to 99 and richer than Mr. Trump

Once, you realise what was behind, what happened to you, you can break free of it. That is the lesson from the experience. Good Luck, Im with you Henry. x

You are welcome Bev. good old truths. Good one Henry.
I know when I was with “him”, every day I looked in the mirror and saw all of what he had done (and what I had allowed him to do to me) was written in the new wrinkles in my face and the stress written allllll over my face/body. Once he was gone, after awhile, I started looking more myself. You cannot tell me this will not happen to the new gf also once she has gotten the “real” taste of what and who he is…and I don’t care how YOUNG she is!

yea, That pursuing bit. They were clever there. he pursued you first, because he probably knew you were unlikely to pursue him, and that he could romance you and condition you.

perky I am coming to CO aug 28 will think of you

Henry, that is coming up very soon…if u want, get my email from donna.

Yea, Too right Rperk. Same thing, he zapped my vitality, I started to look tired and many people commented on it. He also made me cry alot and my eyelids went baggy, which is a blast, because at 55 I dont have wrinkles – Yet!!

So Henry and Rperk – you two going to meet up??

not braggin here but I could keep up with him had more energy and vitality than he does and yep Perky he eventually sucked all that energy out of me made me feel old and exhausted, but the ole Henry is a coming back….

You are so lucky Bev, I even have “butt wrinkles” and am only? 41. But, no more sleepless nights and like you, black eyes in the morning with red seeping out of them.

oh ok but i better hurry going to have my internet cancelled tomorrow but i still have acsess to internet, would you like to meet for coffee and tears?

butt wrinkles lmao thank for the giggle perky

Yea, same here henry, stamina wise, I could easily match him, if not outstrip him!! LOL

yes bev he used to say “and your a grandpa!) wow

Henry, that would be great! Denver is a halfway point…just add @yahoo.com to my screen name…
And yes, butt wrinkles, Haven’t been working out lately, I think they may be actually called, dimples, divits, too much tush fat….(not to worry, I am only 15 lbs over weight, all in the tush)

You dirty devil Henry. Ha Ha. Yes, mine had to ‘check’ my birth certificate, because he said I had a better body than some 30 year olds!!!! x

but he always assured me he didn’t think our age difference mattered at all to him, but again we were just supply

Henry, Yea, mine said that too, said he didnt want a mother. But when I mothered him, he soaked it up. I spent hours and hours rubbing his back to make his pain better. Phew

i will be going to CO Springs how close r u to that?

Bev,
That has got to be a good feeling. (checking Birth certificate and all) But I am curious, did you mean outstrip as in…clothes?

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