When Donna and I talked with Dr. Hare last week, he addressed the question of whether or not all psychopaths are criminals. He also sent us a paper he wrote on this topic. He said that it is possible for a person to score high on the PCL-R and not have an arrest record and not to have committed felonious crimes. He insisted, though, that “antisocial behavior” is central to the disorder and is found in all people who score highly on the PCL-R. The paper he wrote has the following quote regarding Dr. Hervey Cleckley, the psychiatrist who wrote the first book describing psychopathy.
Cleckley (1976) noted that he was “in complete accord” with the description of the psychopath as “simply a(n) antisocial individual” (p. 370). “Not only is the psychopath undependable, but also in more active ways he cheats, deserts, annoys, brawls, fails, and lies without any apparent compunction. He will commit theft, forgery, adultery, fraud, and other deeds for astonishingly small stakes, and under much greater risks of being discovered than will the ordinary scoundrel.”
If all psychopaths/sociopaths are by definition antisocial, then are all individuals who commit antisocial acts sociopaths/psychopaths? As described in the statement above, sociopaths/psychopaths are distinguished by how readily they commit antisocial acts. As the DSM puts it, a sociopath has a pervasive pattern of cheating, lying and disregarding the rights of others. Other recent scientific writers have equated “career criminals” to psychopaths, the idea being that career criminality indicates a pervasive pattern, not just a one or two poor choices.
Since many antisocial behaviors are also illegal, separating criminality from sociopathy/psychopathy is not that straight forward in practice. Where would we find a sociopath who does not engage in criminal deeds? Two groups set out to identify college students with psychopathic personality traits. They used a battery of psychological tests. On the basis of fancy statistics they identified a group of people they called “aberrant self promoters” (ISPs) These people promoted their own self-interest without regard to the rights of others.
Interestingly, as a group ISPs (like psychopaths) are characterized by the combination of narcissism and antisocial behavior. A close look at the group also revealed that they were not particularly law abiding citizens. One of the studies actually measured levels of psychopathy in aberrant self promoters. The average score for the group was 15, well below the cut off of 30 needed to diagnose “psychopathy.” It is also well below the average PCL-R score found in incarcerated criminals. This comparison indicates that many criminals are significantly psychopathic and that their levels of psychopathy exceed those of community “successful psychopaths.” The authors estimated the prevalence of ASP to be 10 percent of the non-incarcerated population. That is a lot of people who are significantly narcissistic and antisocial—but not necessarily felons.
Over the last three weeks I have discussed sociopathy as the combination of narcissistic personality traits and antisocial behavior. I can now say a few more things about psychotherapy and behavior therapy for sociopaths. Most therapy is aimed at reducing the antisocial behaviors that are so central to the disorder. Therapy has been found to be effective in reducing antisocial behaviors in people who are at the lower end of psychopathy/sociopathy. The high end folks are characterized by greater treatment resistance and more difficulty with change.
At the higher end of psychopathy, we see people who are very narcissistic and very antisocial. This combination is especially treatment resistant because grandiose people never think they have a problem.
I also heard again from one of our readers who is struggling to break away from a spouse who is psychopathic and in prison. If you are struggling to break away from a very harmful, antisocial, narcissistic person please help yourself by spending time with some loving, prosocial people. If you do not have anything to contrast the sociopath’s behavior to, it is easy to forget how abnormal they are. Even according to the most lenient criteria, psychopaths at most make up 10 percent of the population. Ask yourself if you want to spend the rest of your life with someone who is at heart, worse than an “ordinary scoundrel.”
Liane, you wrote, “If you are struggling to break away from a very harmful, antisocial, narcissistic person please help yourself by spending time with some loving, prosocial people.”
Great advice. So simple. Straightforward. And true.
When I was with the sociopath, the further I got from my true self, the more I began to believe he was all I was worth. And, the less time I wanted to spend with ‘normal’ as you describe, prosocial, people.
I remember in those last months looking at couples who were ‘normal’ and thinking, what’s wrong with them. Don’t they see it’s all a lie.
What I couldn’t accept was that I was the lie. By staying with him, I was making my life a lie.
Had I stepped back and contrasted what was real in the normal world, versus what was happening in my world, I would have given myself the opportunity to measure my perceived reality against reality — what was real and true and acceptable.
What was happening to me wasn’t acceptable. I just never took the time or opportunity to ask myself the question — do I want to spend the rest of my life with someone who is at heart, worse than an ‘ordinary scoundrel’.
Thanks!
ML
Good, good Post, Liane!
I also agree with what ML wrote, being with them 24/7 and not being exposed to normal people, or discounting normal people as “not getting it” makes you able to be “brainwashed” to think that the P is the only sane one in the world. Looking back, I can see that my Bio-father “brainwashed” me to belive him, to see life through his eyes as “right” and that “normal” people were all wrong.
As far as “all criminals” being psychopathic, I think that most if not all of the “habitual” criminals are somewhere high on the psychopathic trait list. I also believe that all “free world” psychopaths that have never been incarcertated have either been very careful to skate around breaking the letter of the law, OR they have just been cagey enough to do it on a “white collar” level that is not easily prosecuted. The low end of the group that “robs liquor stores” usually eventually get caught, but the “higher end” Psychopaths (the CEO of ENRON for example) are just savy enough to most of the time not get caught out in their “white collar” crimes or to just get a “slap on the wrist” if they do get caught. They get up far enough that they have enough political, financial, or social power to “get away with” their crimes. Unfortunately, I think that “level” of psychopath does more damage to society than the guy who robs the liquor store (assuming he doesn’t kill the clerk).
I am an advocate of “three strikes and you are out” criminal laws that put habitual felony offenders in prison for life without parole. Unfortunately, the prison are so full right now that even the Trojan HOrse Psychopath pled down to a “minor” felony and they were trying to parole him again. The man already has 3 separte sexuall offenses against children, high violence, etc etc. and meets all the criteria plus some to be a “habitual” offender with violent tendencies and attempted murder—-and if I hadn’t raised hell with the parole board they would have ILLEGALLY let him out. After they knew that there would be a screaming woman on the capitol steps with the media, they canceled his ILLEGAL parole which violated the statutes of Arkansas by putting a sexual offender into a half way house (the only place he had to go to).
When he was a “non registered sexual offender” (which is an AUTOMATIC 4 year sentence) I was frustrated at every point in getting him arrested for that, and even after he was arrested for that, that charge was dropped in a plea agreement. Only through threats of media attention did I even get him “assessed” for violence rate after him being in the state 10 months—and there is a 5,000 sexual offender BACK UP of unassessed offenders, that until they are “assessed” are FREE TO MOVE AMONG US WITHOUT THEIR ADDRESSES SHOWING UP ON THE LIST. Since the agency in charge of this for Arkansas is only doing about 5,000 assessments per year, and there are about 5,000 new assessments added each year, they are a minimum of one year behind and NO CHANCE OF EVER CATCHING UP.
When I took the copy of the TEXAS mug shot and internet posting of him around to the neighborhood where I had rented him a house, there were indications that he was already “priming” a 12 year old boy for abuse. The neighbors there had no way of knowing that this man was a 3-time convicted sexual offender because Arkansas wouldn’t post his name or photo until after he was assessed IN ARKANSAS, though he had been assessed in Texas as HIGHLY VIOLENT AND LIKELY TO REOFFEND. So if an offender moves from state to state, they get a “pass” for up to a year of having to register PUBLICLY.
My personal opinion is that EVERY person who is CONVICTED of ANY CRIME, from a traffic ticket to murder should have that posted PUBLICLY AVAILABLE. Arkansas DOES post the picture of every INMATE in their prisons and what the crime is, but once they are out, they fall off the radar. The victim advocate office in Arkansas has been very helpful in notifying me about potential hearings, and releases. It has been a very frustrating task to keep up with it all and to make the courts, and the parole boards adhere to the laws that are in place, much less, ones that NEED TO BE IN PLACE. My local sheriff, on the other hand, has done all that he can do within the law to protect my family.
When I spend time with “normal, prosocial” friends, I end up feeling like I don’t belong somehow. I have a good friend who is happily married for 19 years, has 2 beautiful children, a beautiful home and everytime I am around her and her family, I can feel the love and happiness. I am extreemly happy for her. I just feel like when I do visit, that somehow I am dirtying up her home. She knows nothing of what I have been through, I haven’t told her, how could she ever understand and I don’t want her to look at me with pity in her eyes. So, how do I get from feeling “dirty” and wanting to dive under the table to feeling like…maybe I am just as good as anyone else and hold my head up high. (not better than, but on equal ground)
rperk,
You ARE as good as anyone else. In fact, you are probably exceptionally loving, kind, tolerant, compassionate.
We have learned that many of these wonderful things about as are in part what makes us such good victims of pathological abusers.
But, now we are loving, kind, tolerant, compassionate and WISER.
Even if these traits were part of what made us vulnerable, we have to learn from what happened and to not feel dirty or stupid, or less than because of what happened to us.
These traits that many of us share.. are still GOOD THINGS!
Now we can use these traits to help people who are in need of some love and kindness… like children, the elderly, a neighbor going through a loss, a lost dog. hehehe… yeah.. a Dog deserves way more from us than those pathological black holes. :o)
I think I know how you feel though. I am not in the married, with kids, own a home, money in the bank club. I feel left out. But I guess I have to embrace that I am a complete and worthy human being even without all that. And I have nothing to apologize for.
:o)
Aloha, Thank you. You are so right. When I read things, I hear that “ding ding ding”, sorta like “duh”, why didn’t I think of that. I think it has to do in part that I am 5′, there is no more and things just go wizzing right over my head. Sometimes tho, if I jump quickly and high enough, I catch ’em. And if I start holding my head up, then maybe i could make it to 5’1 and feel better about me. Thank you…
Perky Am I going to have to get Oxy’s skillit? One thing I know is yes I am good and that’s what (he) saw. Doesnt mean we have to stop being who we are (good), we just have to be aware that there is a predator on every corner lookin for us good people. Stop beatin your self up. As far as I am concerend they don’t come any better than PERKY!!!!!!!!
Skillet?????crap. ok,ok,ok. u win.
Right On Henry!!!! xxx
As always these articles are of a great source of information (knowledge) but also of personal (emotional) pain.
“The authors estimated the prevalence of ASP to be 10 percent of the non-incarcerated population. That is a lot of people who are significantly narcissistic and antisocial—but not necessarily felons.”
This is something that I saw in my ex P some often. My ex P would do things that for a honest person would be construed as “illegal” such as using a alias or lying about a injury to collect money or something with little or no conscience. In fact many times I would beg her to stop fearing that it would get her and us into trouble (legally) and cause us financial hardship. One time I told her straight out that “I wanted no part of this”. Of course this matter little to her and in fact I believe she saw me more or less as getting in her way!
“At the higher end of Psychopathy, we see people who are very narcissistic and very antisocial. This combination is especially treatment resistant because grandiose people never think they have a problem.”
This is something that has now for years cause me to lose hope in her ever getting the help she needs. My own personal cross which I bear today! It is the antisocial aspect of this disorder that causes me the most concern and fear for she own safety and personal welfare. Knowing that someday she might just cross over too much and found herself in even more “hot water” then she is in today.
Dear Perky!!!
((((Perky))))) Sweetheart, when someone has been “beaten down” over and over and over again and then told that the reason they have been beaten is because they deserve it, they are no good, by a P—sometimes that person will become like a sweet little Beagle dog. I don’t know if you are very familiar with this breed of dog, but they are SOOOOOO sweet. I have never known one that wasn’t so loving, kind, sweet, etc. they are just so LOVING. If a bad person owns one of these dogs and beats or kicks them, they do not become aggressive back, instead, they roll over on their back and put their tail between their legs to show submission, and they assume that the “god” (human) that beats them is always right and that they did something (they are not sure what) that made the deserve this awful treatment, and they do their best to belly crawl to seek forgiveness for being worthless.
Other breeds of dogs that are beaten and mistreated, and have differnt dispositions will become aggressive and violent.
People are just like different breeds of dogs in many ways. Some if they are mistreated will be like the sweet little Beagles and others will become like angry wolves.
It is obvious to me that you started out the sweetest of humans, and were “beaten” by the P, but BECAUSE YOU ARE SWEET, HUMBLE, GOOD, you responded to the beatings like the sweet and good little Beagles would—you somehow feel that you must have deserved that horrible treatment—Perky, there is no one in the world who DESERVED to be beaten down like we have all been beaten down.
You were beaten BECAUSE you were wonderful and good, not because you were bad or deserved it. YOU DESERVE THE BEST. Now, you get up off your belly and STAND TALL–walk like you are THE QUEEN, PROUD, AND WELL. NO ONE is more worthy than you of GOOD TREATMENT.
Do not ever be ashamed that you do not “have” what others have, whether that is love or money or talent or whatever it is!
YOU DESERVE THE BEST—and that SURE WAS NOT HIM! ((((hugs)))) Some day he will “take a swiing” at someone who isn’t as sweet and loving as you are, and he will get back what HE DESERVES—-THE BIG SKILLET!!!