By | January 11, 2008 145 Comments

ASK DR. LEEDOM: Are there psychological tactics for dealing with a psychopath?

I received this question from a woman who is divorcing a man she believes has the traits of a psychopath (according to the psychopathy checklist):

“What psychological tactics can you suggest in dealing with a psychopath? There must be some tools and strategies to stay a step ahead. I’ve read books on identifying liars and tried to educate myself on strengthening my position in recognizing The Predator. There has to be some guidelines somewhere on How to Ride That Horse. I have had hundreds of horses throughout my life and pride myself on being able to ride anyone that crosses my path. Although this horse has been the most difficult and I continue to be dragged, trampled and kicked, I continue to get back up, dust myself off and try again. I have learned much and he has been a great teacher…..but in the final stages of our divorce, he is throwing some wild curve balls and I’m desperately trying to stay in the saddle. I ride all my horses softly, gently…..Can you offer tools for the arsenal?”


Before answering this question I want to make some important comments. Many people have reasons for needing and desiring relationships with people who are very sociopathic/psychopathic (sociopaths). In my view, there are only two legitimate reasons for having interactions with someone you believe may be “a sociopath.” The first is that the person is your boss and you haven’t yet found another job, and the second is that there is a court order commanding you to. That the sociopath is charming, attractive, wealthy, your son, daughter, friend, lover, mother, father or some other relation, is not a good enough reason to risk yourself and others.

Whenever you interact with a sociopath, you not only risk yourself, you risk others. Sociopaths weave a web of deception that is supported by the many relationships they have. If people refuse to participate in the sociopath’s life he/she will be very limited in his/her ability to harm anyone. Sociopaths/psychopaths know how to surround themselves with people who give them legitimacy in the minds of others and who serve as “cover.” They will use anyone for this purpose, especially ministers, priests and rabbis, and of course, children.


If you desire to have a relationship with a known sociopath there is something wrong with you. That something can be ignorance of the disorder and its dangerousness. A sense of grandiose invincibility and a love of risk taking can also feed into this desire. If you are an adventurous risk-taker, take up blizzard mountain exploration or sky diving, but keep away from sociopaths. Many people write me with a tone of wonder, awe and admiration for sociopaths. Save your wonder, awe and admiration for the Grand Canyon, the pyramids of Egypt, or the true miracles of life, please. (Here I am referring also to the women who send love letters to known killers and serial killers.)

Those comments out of the way, how can you cope successfully with a sociopath/psychopath? First, remember that these people are Driven to Do Evil. Just like you wake up every day and feel your drives and desires, sociopaths/psychopaths wake up every morning and “It’s show time!” Whereas your goals are intimately related to the love and compassion you feel for others, a sociopath’s goals are intimately related to his/her desire to gain power over others. If you don’t understand this at the core of your being, you will not be able to deal with sociopaths. Second, imagine a moment what your life would be like if guilt, empathy and compassion did not enter into your decision making processes. Imagine that your decisions were based solely on your judgments regarding what would benefit you.

Now imagine both together, a Drive to Do Evil and no guilt, empathy or compassion. A sociopath is a sports car with an accelerator and no braking system. Now you can see why I say only an ignorant, crazy or suicidal person would voluntarily choose to ride this horse, or drive this car!

I have just armed you with the mental picture of the sociopath who you are compelled to deal with. To successfully cope, keep this picture in your mind at all times. Ignore any of the sociopath’s actual appearance or behavior. Keep all conversations brief and to the point. Set firm boundaries and never give an inch. Insist that you get everything due you, and that the sociopath abide by his/her end of any court orders, or job descriptions. Most importantly, STOP expecting that the sociopath will behave like anyone other than who he/she is. A sociopath is a person who is Driven to Do Evil and who lacks, guilt, empathy and compassion.

To make this point further, let us consider our friend’s analogy of the psychopath and our relations with him/her to the horse and horseback riding. Horses are domesticated animals. Domestication means they have been bred to have the capacity for submissive behavior and impulse control. These two (submissive behavior and impulse control) are supported by a very complicated biology that includes hormones and brain structure. The psychopath lacks both the brain structure and hormonal profile to behave submissively or even consistently cooperatively. The best horse analogy to the sociopath is the horse who dies in the process of being ridden because s/he lacks the substrate for domestication. This horse is not a challenge, s/he is a waste of time and energy.

So stick with the horses that have been beautifully trained to compete in the show ring, and who lovingly wait by the fence for you to appear. These horses enjoy cooperation and don’t mind having to submit occasionally. The untrainable horses are a complete waste of time. Surround yourself with people you know to be primarily motivated by love and compassion. To do otherwise, is a complete waste of time and energy.

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That sums it up beautifully.

To add my own two cents worth, I have to deal with two sociopaths (the first was my naive mistake, the second was an outright fraud), and since I have children with both of these things (I am loathe to call them “people”), I have to maintain contact with them.

That said, minimal contact with a psychopath is absolutely necessary. Don’t go looking for answers, friendship, closure, mutual understanding, favours, etc. because as far as a psychopath is concerned, you’re prey, period. Asking anything (literally) of these creatures is like exposing your underbelly to them.

If you are simply dealing with court curveballs, remember that a psychopath doesn’t play by the rules and that judges, by vocation, choose a position somewhere in the middle between what you want and what your opponent wants. If your psychopath is wanting the moon and the stars (ie – a ridiculous portion of the property), then probably you should be asking for that, too, to balance it out, otherwise it will be disproportionally tilted in his favour. Judges seem to operate on the premise that both parties should be equally unhappy with his/her decision. Aim for what you think is fair and go several degrees above that to ensure you DO get what’s fair. (It’s worked beautifully for me so far.)

If you have kids with them (which would be the only reason to have continual contact with these things, other than a boss, unless you’re essentially unhealthy) then don’t ever expect a normal co-parenting relationship. You have to be the boss, take control and don’t ever, ever explain yourself to them or justify your actions. If they badmouth you to to world, stop caring. Follow court orders (as Dr. Leedom suggests) to the letter. Document EVERYTHING!! (And if you’re dealing with a bona fide psychopath, there will be plenty to document and it WILL become extremely important at some point in the not-so-far-off future).

If you want a court order changed, don’t bother trying to reason with a psychopath or come to an agreement on your own with him. It probably won’t happen and can, in fact, make things much, much worse (psychopaths love an opportunity to make a mess of things if it’s to their advantage – which means baiting you.) Just go straight to the courthouse. Trust me on this one. I’ve been there. (Twice.) Consider it the same sort of expense (and convenience) as car maintenance. I’m in love with my family court lawyer for the fact that he is the brick wall between me and these two idiots I have to deal with. I gladly accept the expense because it’s so much cheaper than dealing with the stress (and complications that psychopaths create) on my own. (Keep in mind I am a single mother to three children and I’m currently a student. Money is something I DON’T have but I wouldn’t give up my lawyer for ANYTHING).

Don’t expect that, if you do them a favour, you’ll have one down the road from them in return. Psychopaths don’t work that way.

Raise your children as if you are on your own because essentially you are. You are the only one who will be teaching your children the full scope of what it means to be “human.” If your psychopath has access to your children, expect them to be damaged. It’s inevitable. All you can do is provide balance and be there for them when they hurt. (For example, my middle child, Faith, was molested by her psychopathic father last year just before Christmas. I can do nothing about it except support her and give her the tools she needs to protect herself now and in the future. She’s only three years old. I thank God I There’s nothing I can do about it because unless I have a videotape and notarized confession from him, nothing she says matters. And she’s said a lot.)

Don’t ever, ever make the mistake of thinking these things have the best interests of their children at heart or even that they care a little bit for them. They don’t. They would as easily destroy their own children for their own needs and desires (and that may include destroying you, too) as they would order a latte.

So, to summarize, don’t apply the same human standards to psychopaths as you would with someone who is normal. These things are closer to insects (emotionally) than actual human beings. Not only will you be bitterly disappointed by your attempts to relate, but you’ll also (probably) be at a horrible disadvantage.

Lastly, if you have children, consider your family lawyer as invaluable as your mechanic. DON’T SCRIMP on this essential. The cost of hooking up with a psychopath is hiring an excellent lawyer on your behalf from now until forever. Get used to it otherwise you and your children will pay a much larger price. I’m resigned to living in this hell and this is probably the MOST valuable advice I could give.


Yes, we are forced to deal with him due to a court order. His other child has taught his younger sibling how to abuse their family dog. We can’t get anyone in the legal system to take a good look at this person (who is blatantly bizarre) and terminate his parental rights!! Originally the sociopath was just angry about paying child support. Now he is determined to torture the child’s mother and obviously intends to do this until the child is 18 by either being cruel to the child or by teaching the child narcissistic/sociopathic disorder treatment and passing it off as being normal. The child is not even 2 years old but she already knows how to scare dogs. The small child is a normal child in the family with custody’s home but there is no way to know what the child’s father is teaching the child to do!!

Another tatic is to watch for movement within their silence-the seemingly good behavior. That’s when they are thinking deeply about YOU and how to manipulate you into doing their will. The signs are subtle, but they’re there-always. Train your eye for the things unseen, hear the unspoken word, sharpen your instincts for the signs of the next movement before it begins. THINK. Have a plan of action, activate it immediately and never show a violation of your own boundaries. And know that as this interplay is going on-YOU are being watched, with intense scrutiny for any signs of weakness-a crack in your armor that they can ooze through. Stand tall, stand firm, don’t waver, don’t compromise. And quickly move on out of range.

In my recovery from a relationship with a sociopath, I’ve encountered a number of people who were either in a relationship, trying to extricate themselves or trying to manage one of these relationships (usually in a work environment).

The one rule we’ve found to be most useful is “when you’re dealing with a sociopath, be a sociopath.” That is, as Dr. Leedom said, turn off your compassion, understanding and guilt. Get clear about what you want to happen, and operate as cold-bloodedly as they do.

That means to view them as the enemy or the competitor for resources. Have no qualms about tactics you would ordinary consider unethical or destructive to relationships. Just put the full force of your intellect and will behind whatever your objective it, and do what needs to be done.

The main reason, in my mind, that you want as little contact as possible with these people is that is not good for you to have to behave this way. Basically, what you’re doing is unplugging everything that separates you from the sociopath. The justification for doing this is that you’re up against the wall, in a survival situation. But you are regressing your personality to a state of pure will, not moderated by social and community concerns.

I’ve done it. Virtually everyone I know who has been involved in these situation has done it, when they get their minds free of the brain cloud the sociopaths create in them. And it leaves all of us feeling icky, like we’ve been corrupted by the experience. It doesn’t leave us liking ourselves. And some of us, myself included, have gone through periods when we feel like we may be becoming sociopaths as a result of exposure to the sociopath.

But often there is no choice, especially if there are children involved or your own survival. You can’t rely on the “social contract” when dealing with these people, as Dr. Leedom pointed out. You have to become ruthless.

Ruthlessness is one of those words that needs rehabilitation. It’s not necessary a bad thing. Not when your children’s wellbeing is at stake. Nor your own, nor other people you care about.

As clever as sociopaths can be, they are ultimately like robots. Predictable in their intent, if not in their actions. Winning, power, and anything that makes them feel like they actually are something rather than a big black hole around which is wrapped a lot of phony identity.

Every situation is different, but in my experience, the best tactics against them are more power and threat of exposure. They view people in terms of having more power than them or less power. You may think that they have wrapped up all the power sources, but if you think about it in these terms, you may realize they haven’t. You may think they are invulnerable from exposure, but if you think about it, you may see an opening.

The ultimate objective is always to make them go away and stay away. To make you and whatever you care about too expensive to keep playing with. It’s not just a matter of stopping giving them what they want. It’s also making it unpleasant, costly and dangerous for them.

In my experience, sociopaths are not competitors. They don’t like to play games to see who wins. If there is any chance of them not winning, they go find another game. (After they’ve done everything they can think of to win.)

The first time I ever acted like a sociopath was when I got my sociopath out of my life, because I was sick, almost broke and at the edge of suicide. I broke deals I had with him. I made his life uncomfortable. I stopped money he was expecting. I made it impossible for him to maintain his “front.”

And then I watched him trying to change my mind. It was like watching one of the old ViewMasters I had as a child clicking through the different pictures. He acted pitiful, he acted seductive, he made promises, he got mutual friends to talk to me, he told me I was a bad person, he told me no one loved me and I was lucky to have him, and then on his way out the door he whined, “But you said you love me.”

I wanted him out of my life. Since then, I have done things I have never done before to make sure he stays out of my world and the world of anyone I care about. I made two mistakes. One was reaching out to his next victim to offer her support, if she wanted it. (She didn’t.) The other was to imagine I’d ever get back what he owed me.

There is only one thing to do with sociopaths — eliminate them from your life and your world. The best and easiest way to do this, if you you recognize them early enough, is simply to give them no attention and refuse to engage. If the sociopath is already entrenched in your life, do you have to do to get get rid of it.

One way or another, you’ll probably have to spend some time heading yourself. From the experience or from what you had to do end it. Being unfeeling is hard on you. But sometimes it’s necessary.

Fleeced Ewe

Redheeler, THAT IS A VERY IMPORTANT point; you said: “Another tactic is to watch for movement within their silence-the seemingly good behavior.”

And to the opening post:
I worked with horses for years. and even the most abused, the most wild, are trainable. If you are inclined to do so it is possible-but as Dr. Leedom states, they are NOT suitable for showing.

The mistake we make with these people are that they can be “trained”. They can’t. They are more like a wild animal that can NEVER be domesticated. Like a Raccoon, or a snake. I have worked with them, too, and they will turn on you, whenever they please.

Every time we get a calm in the storm, we mistakenly fuel up to love them more while taking it as a sign that we are making progress. As Redheeler said, there is STILL movement going on…watch for that!
WATCH FOR UNSEEN MOVEMENT and prepare for your defense. This is what you do while working with a wild animal. This is what you do when dealing with a perpetrator.

At least, that has been my experience.


One of the thing I noticed about my ex is that he is basically lazy, uses the method which causes him to expend the least energy. As a man quite abit younger than me, he had very little staying power in many aspects of the relationship and certainly hasnt got the tenacity and courage I have.

Also watch for when they drop their comments in – usually after a good time together when they are just about to leave and you are left pondering what they meant. My ex kept talking about ‘voices in his head’ and his ‘demons’ and not having come across this behaviour before I thought it strange. I put my ex in the spotlight a number of times and he carried his ‘honest look’ and body language off to a point which looked convincing but didnt feel convincing.

Red Flags, gut instincts, moments of silence are all good. Test them out as well, I used to test my ex out by asking him to meet me for things I had arranged – needless to say he always turned me down and if I initiated sex he turned me down. If he initiated sex, he said I had initiated it – and I used to say to him that he must have double vision because I was as clear as anything about who did what. He just wanted to be in complete control.

I used to test him by asking him the same questions in a different way weeks or months apart and then remembering his answers to see if they were the same. They cant be that clever all the time. That’s where the mind control comes in – it is draining for them to keep the nonsense up, so if they confuse you and weaken you, make grand promises and let you down. The push and pull effect destabilises you causes a kind of addictive reaction – in that you feel comfortable and reassured when they return and anxious when they are away – perfect set up for someone who wants to possess and control another. Then to finish it all off, they make sure you doubt yourself and take the blame for their nonsense!


Oh and I forgot. There’s the bit at the beginning, where their false persona gives you the impression they are the person you have been seeking, (they tap into that) they are polite, attentive, reliable, they want to help you chase your goals – you are the perfect person for them – your prince – knight – usually when we are most vulnerable. As a single mum, I was weary, he promised to relieve my burdens – and that was attractive.

This is the polished false persona they use to trap us with – they have perfected it with others, they have tried many others. There isnt much continuity in their lives – look to see what they have created in their lives and how their lives have panned out. Next time I wont take anything they say as gospel, nor what anyone else says – even their mother. As proved, they often fool those closest to them.

My instinct will be my guide and I will allow much more space before I commit anything of myself – in a sense I will use some of their tactics, not to control the other person but to give myself protection and I will give a little at a time and I will pull back if I am feeling disturbed about anything even if I cant make sense of it (my mistake last time – I could smell the rats, but couldnt make sense of them, so didnt act early enough).

I guess I am learning to value myself in a way that I will not just give away parts of myself, my money, my attention, my energy, or anything else – until someone has proved they have earned it on a consistent and ongoing basis.


I think it’s just an elongated version of the pity play, but for my ex the big thing was threatening suicide every time he did something bad. Out of nowhere:
‘I think about it all the time?’
‘Killing myself.’
His dad did just that so it seemed to have force. There’s still a part of me that believes him!


My ex had narcissistic committment conflicts, which helped to create a great deal of push and pull dynamics. Which I couldnt understand at the time because he wasnt the catch of the century, infact he had next to nothing going for him, if I look at it coldly. Additionally, he could be hard work to be with and I felt I could never be my real self. Why I put so much effort into someone who gave very little back?

A very good book that goes into depth into the behaviour of those with active committment conflicts and myself as a passive pursuer is ‘He’s Scared She’s Scared’ by Steven Carter and Julia Sokol, published by Dell. This book helped my understanding of why alot of the behaviour takes place and the various stages of it. Has anyone read this book?


I have had to deal with my psychopathic ex’s through the years and they LOVE to play the game but now I do everything I can to stay “unhooked”. I recall toward the end of my marriage (when after 9 yrs, I knew it was finally OVER), I started listening with my head and not my heart and I was amazed on how he would try to manipulate me…it was as if I was seeing it for the first time and I couldn’t believe what a fool I had been and how I would continuously give in to his childish tantrums when he wanted me to buy him something or let him have his way. When he saw that he wasn’t getting through to me, I saw a side of him that had not revealed itself before then…he got real ugly with me and said some really mean things trying to put all the blame on me…and I just sat back and listened while watching in disbelief at this monstrous man who was transforming right in front of my eyes. Yes, if you want to see how ugly they can turn, try turning the tables on them and do not give an inch…hang out with friends, find a hobby….totally ignore them and see what happens. If you want to fall out of love with this person, this type of behavior will definitely be a turn-off… was for me and I was able to move on.


Hi All,
Luckily my husband, I agree with jofary about what to call him, died in an accident two years ago. But that doesn’t change the loss of my son whom he has told so many lies about me that this son has said that he has no respect for me and that he doesn’t want anything to do with me. I haven’t heard from him over Christmas, New Year and even when I went for back surgery. Just a scary reminder to everyone who thinks that they can still have some kind of relationship with a psychopath. He WILL turn everyone, especially your children, on you if he gets the chance! And they are SO convincing that no one is going to believe you. He convinced many that I was crazy and had a serious alcohol problem. He told our friends that I took tablets to calm myself – which was of course plain lies! And he was a master manipulater – as was his mother and father.

Beverly says her ex was so lazy. Mine too. He was asked to leave all his jobs – and he had a new one every 5 years!
I am so sorry that I didn’t know what I know now, but what dr Leedom has said is so true: they are Driven To Do Evil!

I would disagree that sociopaths are driven to do evil, no matter what a books says. Evil is a term directly relating to religion and the devil. I think sociopaths are driven by internal motives relating to their own decisions and what would benefit them the most, and are by no means directed or guided by any religious force. I think if a sociopath were aligned with a devil they would without a doubt screw them over just the same as they would a regular human.

So, Mr. Green, why would a sociopath lie about HIV and knowlingly expose his partner to HIV two months into the relationship and knowing it (the relationship) was about to end? How could infecting another person ‘benefit’ them? It seems the only reason would be he just didnt care if I was infected- and maybe hoped I would be.

I would say you are right. He didn’t care if he infected you because if he was going to break up with you it did not matter if you were infected or not. I would not consider this behavior “evil”. I would call it neglect. Evil usually has a religious connection and I doubt the devil told him to do it.


Evil [evel]: adjective. Profoundly immoral and malevolent. Harmful or tending to harm. (Of something seen or smelled) extremely unpleasant.

I think this qualifies.

I agree. The “Devil” didnt have to tell him to do it. Evil can come from hisself. ‘Neglect’ was failing to tell me in the first place. You seem to rationalize things just as he would. Go figure.

You will quickly learn, if you already haven’t that a sociopath can rationalize himself out of most problems.

Trust me. I’ve learned. First hand.

Mr. Green, you’re off base. Evil is an appropriate word for it. Do your homework on the meaning of the word. A good place to start is “Genealogy of Morals” by Nietzsche.

If you don’t want to buy the book. We are, in fact, driven to do evil. The difference is, likely it’s not for the sake of doing evil, it’s just because what we actually gain something substantial from a lot of times ends up being considered evil by others.


SM, thanks…….and again, I can find no substantial ‘gain’ from KNOWLINGLY infecting or even trying to infect another person with HIV. If anything, it could have landed him in the ‘box’. And doing something like that, obviously, exposes the sociopath. Everything he projected himself to be…honest, truthful, trustworth, was wiped away by that one lie.

Once again SecretMonster, you are correct. You have called me on my BS. You also made me think about it in a different light. I don’t think of what I do as evil but viewed from another’s perspective, something I am not very good at doing, It could be seen as evil. Your experience is something I am lacking but I am trying.

Nietzsche is now on my reading list. Do you recommend any other books that I should look into? I have been on a self exploration phase lately and have quite a few books already accumulated but I still feel I am lacking.

I can think of a few – the old adage “Misery loves company” comes to mind. I can reasonably see being so angry at the world for the condition, that it somehow is vindicative to be kind of a typhoid Mary, and spread the plague even further.

You also have to realize that a lot of these guys aren’t driven by the same motive as I am – don’t get caught. So, it isn’t in their play book to avoid these sorts of complications or confrontations. It’s likely part of the thrill of the entire encounter. You have the romance, the string along, and the reveal. It’s almost like a bad movie script.


Maybe you’re right. He must have been a complete idiot to think he could move into this town and get away with that, and me actually never find out- or he knew I would eventually, and infact wanted me to. So as it stands, he’s gotten away with it- but his secret is out…and spreading…probably just like his disease.


Hi-I know my daughter is a sociopath. She has no guilt, no matter what she does. Some examples–she “accidently” burned down the house they were living in-she had a candle lit to cover marijuana smells-she felt no guilt-even though her family was homeless. She was invited to a church dinner and stole money from people’s purses-she tears pages out of library art books and frames them as her own and then returns the books…..she has stolen all of her life…….now she is a mother and is teaching by example to her beautiful daughter……


I would like to draw your attention to the recent Robert D Hare scientific paper which came out in 2007. That paper says that there is some kind of SUPERfactor that defines psychopathy. I will post an abstract below followed by two question/thoughts :
The super-ordinate nature of the psychopathy checklist-revised. Neumann Craig S; Hare Robert D; Newman Joseph P Department of Psychology, University of North Texas, Denton, TX 76203-1280, USA. [email protected] Journal of personality disorders (2007), 21(2), 102-17. Journal code: 8710838. ISSN:0885-579X. United States. Journal; Article; (JOURNAL ARTICLE) written in English. PubMed ID 17492916 AN 2007284846 MEDLINE


Psychopathy, while perhaps the earliest and most recognized personality disorder, is the subject of intense debate about its nature and measurement. The most recent proposal on its structural nature suggests that it is a multifaceted construct, made up of at least four dimensions reflecting Interpersonal, Affective, Lifestyle, and Antisocial anomalies (Hare & Neumann, 2005, 2006). These dimensions are significantly interrelated, suggesting that they are indicators for a super-ordinate factor. The nature of this higher-order factor may reflect the unifying feature which comprehensively defines the disorder. To examine this super-factor, the current study used several very large data sets of male (N = 4865) and female (N = 1099) offenders, and forensic psychiatric patients (N = 965), who were assessed with the Psychopathy Checklist-Revised (PCL-R; Hare, 2003). Structural equation modeling results indicated that the four first-order factor dimensions could be explained by a single second-order cohesive super-factor.
1. if super factor exists does it mean that there could be some ONE magic question which would give an answer if you deal with psychopath :))) ?

2. Does this super-factor concept contradict “inner-triangle” theory or in fact it does not contradict? Since inner triangle has to have all 3 features present in psychopath does that mean that there could be that super factor which defines all three?


abstract sounds interesting for me, any one can translate that paper into “normal language”? :)))



Showbirdz – So, easy to get into these relationships with these wily monsters and getting out can also be very tricky. But thank God you kept your wits about you and you have got him out of your home – that is a huge step for the good, because then his direct manipulation and access to you and all the nonsense and illegal stuff he brought to your home stops. Cant you just give him the pool money to get rid of him once and for all?


Ox Drover

Dr Leedom, that is a wonderful response to this woman’s question.

I would like to add a bit to your explination. Years ago before I went into the medical field, I worked as a wild life photographer in Africa and South Americal. I got to know quite a bit about wild animals, and wild animals in captivity.

I am also a life long horse trainer. I also used to think that I could get up and dust myself off and get back on the rankest of horses, and even did so with a BROKEN LEG.

It is sort of like the old country and western song about the “winner”–an old man sitting in a bar talking to a younger man about how the old man is always a “winner” in bar room fights. he h as had an eye gouged out, but he “won” he had his legs broken, but he “won” the fight by inflicting more pain on the “loser” and on and on, and the old man shows that even though he “won” every bar room brawl he was in, he is a broken hulk of a man, barely able to walk–but he was a WINNER! LOL

I have a farm with quite a bit of large stock, cattle, horses, donkeys etc. but I made a RULE years ago, after getting back on the horse that deliberately broke my leg, that ANY animal no matter the monetary worth that TRIED to deliberately hurt me (whether they succeeded or not) DIED. Period. No second chances. Large stock can hurt you without meaning to, either through fear or pain, but an animal that WANTS TO HURT YOU, and I have had horses and cattle like that, is NOT WORTH THE RISK.

I wish I had applied that logic years ago to people as well. As I had unwisely gotten back on the horse that broke my leg before I went to the ER, tried to “control” and “tame” the untameable Ps. How foolish on my part was that? What did it prove that I got back on the EVIL horse? Or that I “got back on” the Evil P? That I was tough enough to endure their injuries and get back up?

Now, older and wiser, anyone who TRIES to hurt me is not worth the RISK of trying to deal with them unless I am forced to and as far as risking my chldren being around a P, I am afraid I would break the law and take them and RUN and hide. In the case of dire necessiaty to protect my child from molestation, laws and courts be hanged–I am gone.

At age 60 I have finally gotten wise enough to realize that I can’t “defeat” them without becoming like the “winner” in all the barroom brawls—injured and infirm–and at some point I will “lose” the fight and they will finish me off. What kind of life is that?

A mean horse, whatever the reason it is trying to hurt me, even if it is “mean” because it was formerly abused, is not something that I want to risk my life and my soul to try to “rehabilitate” it is just not worth the risk. Ditto with EVIL humans…it is not worth the risk to fight with them. Besides, it will NOT work.

My symapthy goes out to those valiant men and women who battle with them day to day to try to raise their children in the chaos and pain created by these monsters, who will use their own children as battering rams and baseball bats to try to injure their x’s—How sad is that? How messed up is our court system to fail to realize and recognize these monsters for what they are and to give some comfort to these defenders of their young?

Wild animals can never be completely “tamed” or their danger over come, the tiger incident in Las Vegas is a wonderful and horrible example of this fact. Anyone who thinks otherswise is either ignorant, foolish or stupid. They are and always will be WILD animals. They do not understand the “love” and “kindness” shown to them by their “owners” the way a dog does. But a dog is thousands of generations away from the wolf from which they all sprang geneticly. Not so the tigers and lions and wolves of this world. Even if you take them away from their mothers at birth and raise them on a bottle, they will NOT fail to be tigers or lions when they grow up, they will just be tigers and lions that have NO RESPECT OR FEAR OF HUMANS the way wild ones do. So actually, they are MORE dangerous than their wild brothers.

To me, the “domesticated” P is more dangerous than the one who has not learned the social skills necessary to “pass for human.”


Are we talking about the same guy? Do these men follow a pattern? I wished I had read a book on sociopaths before I met mine, my life would be a lot better now. We are not together now, because one day he just decided not to call me anymore, now I realize that I was probably one of many or at least a few. My dad always told me, this man is lying and using you, he runs around and then goes home on weekend and plays the good family man.
I have no doubt he still thinks he is the best thing that’s ever happened to me, I have never been so manipulated, and lied to about the smallest things, he was such a jerk and I believed him, he used me and I let him. I am so angry at myself, has anyone gone through that?

Ox Drover

Blackrose, yes, there are patterns, and yes, being angry at yourself for allowing him to use you is ‘normal’ but it will pass.

I suggest you read and learn and learn and read…and the anger at yourself will pass, you will forgive yourself as we all must. They are crafty creatures. God bless.


Can you – or someone else – expound on this experience:

“I’ve done it. Virtually everyone I know who has been involved in these situation has done it, when they get their minds free of the brain cloud the sociopaths create in them. And it leaves all of us feeling icky, like we’ve been corrupted by the experience. It doesn’t leave us liking ourselves. And some of us, myself included, have gone through periods when we feel like we may be becoming sociopaths as a result of exposure to the sociopath.”

I feel very much like that, lately. The first time I made a clean break from him back in 2001 it didn’t involve any weird maneuvers. This time it did, and I cut myself off from feeling. I’ve been numb from being around him even though I was suspicious of him once he returned in 2006 and those suspicions abated only slightly during the “idealization” phase when he was being pretty terrific. They got much worse during the D&D, and rightly so.

At any rate, I felt like one and sometimes still feel this (for lack of a better term) residue from engaing with him. Even when I tell others the truth of his behaviors towards me, I feel like I’m being an S’path, telling tales out of school, abusing him somehow by proxy. Even though the things I’m saying are 100 percent true things he did and said. Plus, there’s so much anger towards him for coming along again when life was bad and attempting to make it worse that I was contemplating things that were, basically, abhorrent: retribution fantasies, continuing in his twisted game, trying to win it.

Until one day I realized it can’t be won, wasn’t worth trying and was a giant waste of talent and energy. But still, the residue feeling…this ickiness and slight emptiness….does it go away?

Ox Drover


I’m not Khatalyst, but maybe I can shed some light on your questions.

Quote: “The icky feeling, like we have been corrupted by the experience” I think is a COMMON feeling to many/most/all of us. I know I was ANGRY at myself, downed my self for being “so STUPID”

Quote: “gone through period when we feel like we may be becoming sociopaths as a result to exposure to the sociopath”

The intensity of the stress and pain which they inflict on us, which we suck up and allow them to create within is, I think causes “abnormal” reactions, out of character reactions within us. Frustration, stress, pain—all make for our own crazy or unwise behavior. The “need for revenge” or the desire for it, is also a NATURAL human response to injury. But we control our own impulses to go burn their house down, or shoot them, or do bad things, because we are NOT Ps…even by association.

Telling other people (who have not had experinece with this kind of person in a very painful way) sometimes leaves us feeling bad because they are NOT ABLE TO VALIDATE our feelings,,,,,it is TOTALLY FOREIGN TO THEM. They cannot relate.

I got the sense that I was telling someone about my “abduction by aliens” story and they were looking at me like I was CRAZY—and that the “abduction by aliens” would be more believeable to them than telling them what the Ps had done. Normal people who have not dealt with or know about Ps are not able to validate your feelings—unfortunately. Therefore I gave up trying to “explain” myself to these people or even talk about the Ps with them. No matter what I said I could not convince them that I was not the crazy one. LOL

Your ANGER is also a NORMAL RESPONSE…anger at him, anger at yourself. Yes, he was EVIL. Yes, you let him back into your life.

Forgiving myself I think may be one of the most difficult things that I have faced. I look at how I allowed them to dupe me, and kept trying, expending massive amounts of energy, love, etc trying to “fix” them when they were unfixable. WHY? But I must come to forgiveness of myself and I believe as well, forgiveness of them as well. Not “forgiveness” in the context of saying that what they did was right or justified, but GETTING THE BITTERNESS AND ANGER AND RAGE out of MY HEART, for MY benefit. Letting that go. It is PAST. I can’t change the past, I can only ACCEPT it for what it is/was, and move on from here.

I am changed by the experience. I DO look for red flags in new relationships of ALL kinds. I DO set boundaries with people in my “circle of trust” and in any kind of relationship with me. I no longer feel the “need” to “please everyone” without expecting anything in return—like respect of me and my own boundaries.

I don’t let uncomfortable trespasses of my boundaries “accumulate” until there are enough of them that I explode and act inappropriately myself. I address each trespass of my boundaries on the spot (most of the time) or as soon after the trespass as I am aware of it.

Now that I am not spending so much emotional energy on others and what they think about me, worrying that I might not “please” someone else–I can focus more energy on me, and my own recovery, restoring my own emotional reserves of energy so that in the event a big emotional upset of some kind (unexpected death in the family or whatever happens) that I will have some reserves to deal with that.

I am ELIMINATING what I call the “UNnecessary” crap. There are enough things in life that “just happen”–illness, injury, etc that can’t be prevented—but there is NO NEED for “UN-necessary” nastiness on anyone’s part and I will not tolerate that at all.

I consciously avoid situations where I may be in contact with someone that I know will try to inflict some kind of emotional nonsense on me, etc. Thus avoiding a situation that I know will take away from my PEACE or energy.

I don’t discuss the P-experience with anyone outside my very close “circle of trust” and then not too often unless something comes up that we need or want to talk about it.

I read and learn and reinforce my learning about appropriately setting boundaries, and enforcing them. Since this is not yet a “habit” and I must sort of “work at it” and “work at” not feeling guilty about it, it is still in the learning and working at it stage. I am getting better at it though, and not requiring “validation” (from others) that my boundaries are appropriate–I am making PROGRESS from where I was. Early on I actually would have to ask my son D if my boundaries were appropriate or if I was over reacting. I didn’t trust myself to know what appropriate boundaries were. Now I know and am trusting myself. I set them without having to get validation from him. I have taken off the “training wheels” as it were.

It all takes time, study to see where WE need to adjust our thinking, guilt feelings, emotions, etc. and the old saying “Rome wasn’t built in a day” and neither were we “built in a day” we have a lifetime behind us of habits, thoughts, etc. that we need to examine to see which are helpful and which detrimental to our well being. Which to keep and which to toss out. I wish I thought I could ever reach “perfection” but I know it isn’t a destination, but a journey in which I will stumble again and again, but as long as I work at it, and put one emotional foot in front of the other, I’ll get closer to what I really want to BE.


It has been a while since I was victimized so I definitely went through that stage of being numb. I know how that feels. It is kind of scary, because when I was thinking of how to get back at the S, I started thinking of ways to manipulate the situation that I’m sure she would have thought of if she were in my place. I had dreams about murder and revenge.

But now even though she turns my stomach, I have given up on revenge and I rely on indifference to fight my battles. Now that I have gone through feeling icky and guilty about my responses to her, I feel like I can look at it objectively. I try to dissect what she says and find a motive instead of listening to the craziness she spouts. (I can’t go NC completely because of my father.)

Also, practicing indifference with sociopaths at work has also helped me with that. I obviously have to have some type of contact with them, so I ignore them to the best of my abilities. Now I am to the point where I can see what they are trying to do with each fake laugh and snide comment. It’s kind of pathetic actually.

Having said that, I DO know how difficult it is to distance yourself from the emotional aspect of the interaction or the memories. It is hard not to feel vindictive when you tell such bizarre (but true) stories. They can sound so off-the-wall to other people. That’s why I don’t tell anyone but close friends and people here about it.

It was hard for me to stop taking the crap personally, even about my memories. But really, that’s just what they do. I really think it will go away for you eventually. I think it’s just a matter of time and the icky feeling is a stage in healing that you’ll pass.


I agree with the last post, sometimes I feel, well, all the time, I feel as if I have been emotionally raped. I would love to forgive him, not because I want to, but because it would be better for me. But, right now I’m at the hate him/still love him stage, I hate him for what he did to me, for the lies, the deception, for getting away with it. I even hate him for not thinking of me enough to try to call me and manipulate me again. I keep thinking that if he called and gave him a piece of my mind, tell him how I feel about him now, that I would feel better, I don’t think he would listen though. Months ago he even stopped talking to his niece, who is my friend and the one to give him my number. He started telling me she was a compulsive liar, and I should not believe anything she said. Now I see how he was trying to discredit her, so I would believe only him. What bothers me the most was the way he ended the relationship, he didn’t, he just stopped calling. So I have not had that closure, it’s this door that’s just been left open enough, and as much as I’d like to tell him how I feel, I’m just at that vulnerable state of mind where I could fall for his lies one more time, and the feeling is just as unbearable as it was three months ago. The funny thing is I only saw this man twice in one year, the rest of the time we just talked on the phone, so I don’t know why he still has such a hold on me, maybe I think of all the times I thought of breaking it off and didn’t because I did not want to hurt him, and he ended up hurting me instead with absolutely no regard to how I would feel.

Ox Drover

Blackrose, all your feelings about this man are so common to us all I think. Especially in the early stages.

AFter I realized what my P-son was, and how EVIL he was, I wanted SO BADLY to “tell him off” to “give him a piece of my mind” to say something that would make him know or care how much he had hurt me—OH HOW I WANTED TO LET HIM KNOW—but I restrained myself (finally) and now at this point, I really don’t care if he understood (though I know he can’t really, or if he does, he doesn’t care).

Your pain will pass as your healing progresses….that I can guarentee you…but it will take time. I think the most healing words in the world are “and this, too, shall pass.”


I guess my sense of loss comes from remembering what he was like on the “phone” before we met, but he mirrored my wants, desires, his good qualities were my good qualities. THAT man left such an in print in my life, and to realize that he was a lie it’s devastating. Any explanation would have been fine, we were talking about it with his niece, and she stated that the last argument we had gave him an easy way out, he could just use it as an excuse to end the relationship, and maybe he just doesn’t care to know how much I hate him now, and I agree with feeling “icky”.
I keep thinking, how could I have made love to this man? How could I have loved him at all, knowing I deserved better. We were talking about the relationship with a friend of mine, and I made the comment that if I had made the effort to go see him more often, he never had the time to come and see me, that the relationship perhaps would have worked out, and her response was,”no, you would have seen the real him sooner, and you would have ended it.”

Ox Drover


Your friend is sooooooo RIGHT—there is NOTHING you could have done that would have made this relationship “work out” for anything in a healthy manner—giving up the belief that we could have done something different to have changed the outcome is I think one of the first steps to healing ourselves, to forgiving ourselves for pouring so much energy and love into a BLACK HOLE of humanity.

I sought for years for the elusive “right words” to convince my P-son that he shouldn’t destroy his life, that he shouldn’t do the things he did–I just kept feeling that there was some “magic phrase” that would make him see how much I loved him and how I was concerned for his welfare, not trying to hurt him, etc etc. I wanted to somehow open up his skull and pour in my life to make him “see” that he was ruining his life, and ruining my hopes for my much beloved son—

Well, Black rose, there is no Santa Claus, no Easter Bunny, no Tooth Fairy and NO MAGIC PHRASE that can make them CARE. The only place any of these things existed was in my hopeful imagination—it didn’t really hurt me to give up the Santa Claus myth, or the Easter Bunny, or even the Tooth Fairy, but it tore out my GUTS to give up the myth that there was a thing in this world I could have done to have changed the outcome of my son’s life.

He was determined to be his “own man” and do whatever he wanted, no matter who he destroyed, even himself. He is in prison now for murder, where he deserves to be, and where he needs to stay. He has never repented, only gloried in how bad he is. It is a shame, this is a man who had it all, looks, intelligence, charisma, and a full-ride scholarship to any school he had wanted to go to including the Ivy Leagues. He blew it all off, threw it all away in order to be a THUG and a “badA$$”—well he succeeded in his efforts.

Giving up the “fantasy son” that I wanted was as painful or maybe more so than anything I have ever done, but though TRUTH is painful, in the end, it sets us FREE if we accept it.

The “fantasy ADULT son” is no longer there, and the real child son that I loved is no more, he i s essentially “dead” and the coffin closed and buried, and the grief for his loss turned to acceptance and peace—and just as I can remember the pleasant times with that long-lost child, and I can remember the good times with my late husband, without undue pain or grief, I have come full circle to where life is good again.

I still have issues to deal with, like setting appropriate boundaries, and some other things, that will keep me from being a victim of another P that I might meet, but the worst of all is over, and I am on the upswing. Still healing my wounds, but they are no longer bleeding profusely and are knitting closed.

There are many people here who can validate your feelings as “normal” and your “pain” as transitory in spite of how intense it is. There IS LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL, and it is NOT an ON-COMING TRAIN! lol


Thanks for all the comments, I am really sorry about your son, it must be painful for you to have gone through that. Sometimes, I think maybe I am making this man to be worse than he really is, then I look back at our so called relationship, he was never there for me. He did tell some of his family members about me, (I should have told you, he’s married, on his third wife). He said he had told his brother about me, basically that I was good in bed. At the time, I thought what an odd thing to say about the woman he loves, but when I would ask him what he liked about me, he would respond the same way, “you’re pretty and good in bed.” He always blamed his wives for all the problems in their marriages, that should have been a clue, actually it was, just chose to ignore it. The red flags were always there. He did love his son, but it took him ten months to tell me he had indeed fathered another son, did not remember how old the child was, and he said it as casually as talking about a puppy he gave away.

Ox Drover

ALL PSYCHOPATHS cause horrible pain to anyone they interact with, or are related to.

They give us a “fantasy” of them being what we want and need, but it is all a FAKE, a LIE, “smoke and mirrors” and UNREAL. My son used my love for him, and used me like toilet paper–somehow he got joy out of “putting one over” on me, more than doing it to others—he had a special hatred of me, I think because of the few times I SERIOUSLY stood up to him…I think he actually wanted to prove himself smarter, more cunning, and more sly than me…

But he didn’t hurt me emotionally any more than anyone else here has been hurt emotionally—the pain from them fills our entire being—regardless of who they are to us. It is just that I let it go on for longer than most people have, though I know women who have been married ot them for 40+ years and finally broke free—

Anytime we continually interact with anyone who is “not behaving morally” (whether they steal, cheat on their wife, sponge off others, or what their immoral behavior is) we are letting ourselves interact with a potential, if not actual, Psychopath.

I’ve “enjoyed” all the pain I care to from psychopaths in my life, from my son, to my biological father, to bosses, to boyfriend, to business partners–I’ve ignored the red flags, and ignored warnings from others early on in the relationships, but I think I finally got the message.

Blackrose, your P can’t love you, only use you…just like a cat plays with a mouse (read that thread it is a good one) and sometimes it is difficult to get our heads around that concept. I know it sure was for me and most people on this blog seem to echo my feelings on that (not trying to speak for everyone though) Because we don’t have the same mental constructs that they do we can’t understand them much better than they can us–it would be like us trying to understand the thinking of our 15th century ancestors as they lit the fire under a heretic to burn them at the stake for thinking the world was not flat.

I have no doubt that somewhere one of my ancestors was burned at the stake and that one of my other ancestors lit the fire…but I can’t really imagine how they felt, thought, etc. as it is just too foreign to me to think about such a thing as “logical” or “rational” or “right”—

I can’t really fathom how someone can strap a bomb to their body and think they are doing right by blowing themselves up and taking innocent children with them. I can’t imagine how Timothy McVey bombed the buildings in Oklahoma…anymore than he can imagine what I thought about HIM. It is like two different species, except THEY LOOK HUMAN.

I can observe their behavior in some circumstances, but I can’t fathom how they really “think.” I know when I go to drive up my herd of cattle, how they will behave if I do X, and How they will behave if I do Y, but I can’t get into their heads, I can only observe cause and effect.

Ps in some ways are just as predictable as the cattle at herding time…if you look directly at the cattle they sense this as aggression and move away from you, so if you are trying to walk by one without disturbing it, you look away and it will stand in place, but if you look directly at it, it will run away from you.

All the “behavioral clues” that he gave you, and that you chose to ignore, are pretty common with other people too. I had RED FLAGS waving not in a “breeze” but in a hurricane and I ignored them totally because to notice them would have been to give up the “fantasy” I was invested in, and I wasn’t ready to do so until the pain got so intense I had no choice if I was to live (literally).

The one thing I would contradict you on is that I don’t believe he did love his son—they are not capable of love as we know it, but only of “ownership” of others, especially children. Notice what you said about “did not remember how old the child was, and said it casually as talking about a puppy he gave away.”

You sound like a pretty “sharp cookie” and I know that there will be pain for a while and the “crazy making” confusion etc. but the pain is transitory and there is light at the end of the tunnel if we look for it!


What bothers me the most, and I don’t know why, is to think of what he’s telling those people who knew about me. The things he would say about his niece to me to try to discredit her, and then he’d say that he loved her. I just feel such shame, his niece told me that I had given him an easy way out when we had that argument, but thinking about it, I had given him the chance to break it off a couple of moths. before, and what did he do? He asked me to wait and be patient, now I see that he could not be the one to be “left.” Like I said before, it feels as if I have been emotionally raped, and when I asked people if they thought this was a good man, who maybe decided to work on his marriage, the response was always the same, no.
Maybe they’re right, maybe he’s moved on to someone else, maybe his wife is now providing him with the ns he needs, I don’t know, what I do know is that he never loved me and that’s going to be a hard pill to swallow for sometime.
The one thing I remember about him is he always said that if we were going to be together, it was going to be his way of noway.
But, then he’d say how his wife called the shots at home, I don’t know if that is true or not. I know that he has some deep emotional issues with women, he confessed to me that he had been sexually abused by his mom, that she would lock him in a closet for hours when he was little, and that is why he punishes the women in his life. I wished I had never met him, that is one of the things I would change about my life if I could, just erase him out of my memory.

Ox Drover


It really doesn’t matter if his mother tortured him with lit cigarettes, that does NOT excuse his behavior to women.

NOT every person who was abused as a child becomes an abuser. It is a CHOICE.

He will talk about you badly, that is what a Psychopath does. They place blame for what they do on others–the poor abused dear…that is part of the LIE.


You can’t “normalize” his behavior, or make sense of it in a way that a normal person can understand, all we can do is to observe his behavior and say “He is acting like a psychopath” because he can’t understand empathy and we can’t truly understand how a person with NO CONSCIENCE TRULY FEELS.

He is POISON. He is EVIL. Just like a rattlesnake is poison, and will bite, Ps do what they do. They just ARE.

Trying to “understand” him, or “pity” him is crazymaking.

All the “love” and “kindness” in the world won’t make a rattlesnake not poison, and it won’t make it grow fur and love you like a puppy—it just IS a snake. It does what snakes do. It thinks like snakes think. (if they do)

The time will come when you will remember the experience without pain, with acceptance, but in the meantime, focus on healing YOU. God bless.


I know, but even now, and it’s only been three months, I keep blaming myself, and then I have to keep remembering that this man NEVER LOVED ME. When he would talk about the love of his life, his drug addicted ex-wife, he’d tell me, “as much as I loved her, I used her.” I never asked him to go into detail, I think I was just afraid of what the answer would be. Sometimes I just pray that I am wrong about this guy, but it always goes back to the same thought, no, he is what he is. They can’t even be called animals, that would be too good of a name for them.

Ox Drover

Blackrose, the “blaming yourself” is part of the healing process. I think 99.9999% of us all do that…but that too will pass as you heal, you will forgive yourself as part of the healing process.

I don’t think anyone felt as STUPID as I did, I think us all thinking that WE are the QUEENS of STUPID is part of it too. LOL Now I just realize that I am HUMAN and that I made poor decisions, ignored red flags, and that even though I have made poor decisions in the past, today is a new day with new decision choices and I want to make better decisions today than I made in the past.

By looking at the past poor decisions I made, seeing why they were poor, and in some cases deciding why I made them, I am able to see where I went wrong and correct that today and in the future. Beating myself up for being “so stupid” isn’t productive at all.

I got some therapy and that has helped give me more insight into the “whys” of why I allowed someone(s) to abuse me for extended periods of time, or why I got involved with them in the first place. It has also made disconnecting from them easier, though it was still difficult as many of them were family members. But today I feel more centered and rational and emotionally happy and healthy than I have ever felt I think. So over all this may have been a very painful but very good lesson for me.

Did anyone read any Steven Carter, like “He’s Scared; She’s Scared” or “Help! I’m in Love With a Narcissist” when they were in the relationship? Somehow found those books last spring, in the middle of it all, and recognized so much of the patterns, both those of the P’s and those of us who were with them.

That was the beginning of the end for me and the first step to stop self-blame. It’s ok to realize something is wrong with how we reacted and what we accepted, but that didn’t make the P do the things he/she chose to do to us.

I’d highly recommend them to you and others, blackrose :

Steven Carter’s Relationship Q&A:

Steven Carter’s books:


Thanks for all the tips, I am now beginning to see, slowly, what a loser he really was, and he even told me that one time. Do these guys have some moments when they actually say the truth? All of his bragging about what he had accomplished, the years he served in the Navy, I always felt like saying, dude, you would have to be a hundred years old to do all of that. But I never made fun of him, if he sensed I was laughing at him in any way, he would become angry, but he always made fun of other people.


“Blackrose” keywords “He is the lie”. Your p was burned by cigarettes and locked in a closet. Mine was punished with her hands being put on stove burners and locked in the basement while her mother had her affairs.”She is the lie”. I really believe we somehow need to start our own sort of PCL-R-R using the power of the internet. The constant comments of “were we dating the same person?” or the similarity of so many of the stories to our own is a very powerful statement to exactly how they work.


Hi LilOrphan. I have that book (He’s scared, She’s scared) and its the best book ever. I have the other one on order but it is out of print and its called something like ‘Help Im in Love with a Narcissist’.

When I knew my ex was messing with my head, I went on the web to find out signs of cheating, then I was thinking he was committment phobic, so I bought the book and there are lots of references to narcissistic behaviour, but the penny still didnt drop for me until I went on a site about sociopaths and then the pennies starting falling like bricks. Then I found my way here six months ago.

I also read the ‘Art of Seduction’, a training manual for users and abusers.


So true, all the good things I remember about him are really the things I imagined in my mind. My dad was able to see through this guy from the beginning, even though he never talked to him or met him, he always said this guy was a compulsive liar. When my dad passed away unexpectedly, my P was very supportive, but he had no choice, he had to play the role. He did say a strange thing, that he had expected his dad to die before mine, his niece stated he was probably envious that he didn’t and that he was deprived of the attention he feels entitle to. I think that makes sense, when we did see each other, he always accused me of wanting other men to look at me, and that I wanted to take them home to have sex with them.

I know am better off without him, but the humiliation of having been used bothers me. How can these people say they love someone if they don’t really mean it? I would never think of doing that to anyone, but he knew how vulnerable I was at that time in my life, and took advantage of that.

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