I received this question from a woman who is divorcing a man she believes has the traits of a psychopath (according to the psychopathy checklist):
“What psychological tactics can you suggest in dealing with a psychopath? There must be some tools and strategies to stay a step ahead. I’ve read books on identifying liars and tried to educate myself on strengthening my position in recognizing The Predator. There has to be some guidelines somewhere on How to Ride That Horse. I have had hundreds of horses throughout my life and pride myself on being able to ride anyone that crosses my path. Although this horse has been the most difficult and I continue to be dragged, trampled and kicked, I continue to get back up, dust myself off and try again. I have learned much and he has been a great teacher…..but in the final stages of our divorce, he is throwing some wild curve balls and I’m desperately trying to stay in the saddle. I ride all my horses softly, gently…..Can you offer tools for the arsenal?”
Before answering this question I want to make some important comments. Many people have reasons for needing and desiring relationships with people who are very sociopathic/psychopathic (sociopaths). In my view, there are only two legitimate reasons for having interactions with someone you believe may be “a sociopath.” The first is that the person is your boss and you haven’t yet found another job, and the second is that there is a court order commanding you to. That the sociopath is charming, attractive, wealthy, your son, daughter, friend, lover, mother, father or some other relation, is not a good enough reason to risk yourself and others.
Whenever you interact with a sociopath, you not only risk yourself, you risk others. Sociopaths weave a web of deception that is supported by the many relationships they have. If people refuse to participate in the sociopath’s life he/she will be very limited in his/her ability to harm anyone. Sociopaths/psychopaths know how to surround themselves with people who give them legitimacy in the minds of others and who serve as “cover.” They will use anyone for this purpose, especially ministers, priests and rabbis, and of course, children.
If you desire to have a relationship with a known sociopath there is something wrong with you. That something can be ignorance of the disorder and its dangerousness. A sense of grandiose invincibility and a love of risk taking can also feed into this desire. If you are an adventurous risk-taker, take up blizzard mountain exploration or sky diving, but keep away from sociopaths. Many people write me with a tone of wonder, awe and admiration for sociopaths. Save your wonder, awe and admiration for the Grand Canyon, the pyramids of Egypt, or the true miracles of life, please. (Here I am referring also to the women who send love letters to known killers and serial killers.)
Those comments out of the way, how can you cope successfully with a sociopath/psychopath? First, remember that these people are Driven to Do Evil. Just like you wake up every day and feel your drives and desires, sociopaths/psychopaths wake up every morning and “It’s show time!” Whereas your goals are intimately related to the love and compassion you feel for others, a sociopath’s goals are intimately related to his/her desire to gain power over others. If you don’t understand this at the core of your being, you will not be able to deal with sociopaths. Second, imagine a moment what your life would be like if guilt, empathy and compassion did not enter into your decision making processes. Imagine that your decisions were based solely on your judgments regarding what would benefit you.
Now imagine both together, a Drive to Do Evil and no guilt, empathy or compassion. A sociopath is a sports car with an accelerator and no braking system. Now you can see why I say only an ignorant, crazy or suicidal person would voluntarily choose to ride this horse, or drive this car!
I have just armed you with the mental picture of the sociopath who you are compelled to deal with. To successfully cope, keep this picture in your mind at all times. Ignore any of the sociopath’s actual appearance or behavior. Keep all conversations brief and to the point. Set firm boundaries and never give an inch. Insist that you get everything due you, and that the sociopath abide by his/her end of any court orders, or job descriptions. Most importantly, STOP expecting that the sociopath will behave like anyone other than who he/she is. A sociopath is a person who is Driven to Do Evil and who lacks, guilt, empathy and compassion.
To make this point further, let us consider our friend’s analogy of the psychopath and our relations with him/her to the horse and horseback riding. Horses are domesticated animals. Domestication means they have been bred to have the capacity for submissive behavior and impulse control. These two (submissive behavior and impulse control) are supported by a very complicated biology that includes hormones and brain structure. The psychopath lacks both the brain structure and hormonal profile to behave submissively or even consistently cooperatively. The best horse analogy to the sociopath is the horse who dies in the process of being ridden because s/he lacks the substrate for domestication. This horse is not a challenge, s/he is a waste of time and energy.
So stick with the horses that have been beautifully trained to compete in the show ring, and who lovingly wait by the fence for you to appear. These horses enjoy cooperation and don’t mind having to submit occasionally. The untrainable horses are a complete waste of time. Surround yourself with people you know to be primarily motivated by love and compassion. To do otherwise, is a complete waste of time and energy.
I didn’t know which post to add my question to, but, in a recent conversation with my husband’s ex-wife, she brought up there being a “genetic tie” to her kids [with him] regarding their picking up her lying traits. … This has me wondering, given neither my husband nor I have said anything to her using those words, how much she might have diagnosed herself, while, of course, she continues lying and twisting everyone’s words into her standard manipulation technique [that I’ve seen so far, anyway].
Can I ask this somewhere else more appropriate to this, about how much self-awareness any -paths have? I was really surprised to hear her use the lying-genetic association….
dear Newstepmom,
Just post your questions anywhere…
Yes, there are genetic links with psychopathic traits….as far as HER awareness of this…(shoulders shrugging here) I’m not sure how aware she is or how she phrased it to you–
“My kids are like me and they also lie?”
So I’m not sure just exactly what she indicated. In general, I would say that psychopaths and narcissists are NOT really self aware in the way that empathetic people are. They do not “search themselves” to try to improve their relationships with others…but they do observe us to see how we can be manipulated.
I would strongly suggest that you LIMIT AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE your conversations with this woman. The more you say to her the more ammo she has to turn against you. I wouldn’t be “rude” but just AVOID her as much as possible…be “superficially polite” but BORING and more BORING “Gray rock” her. Don’t have any opinions around her. If she says “The sky is so nicely sunny” and you look out and see it is POURING RAIN, do NOT contradict her, just say something like “thanks for pointing that out” or something else along that line.
If she comes in naked and asks if you like her new dress—“Oh, yes, it is just YOU!”
Be careful around the kids, especially when she is around, and don’t say anything to them or let them over hear anything you do NOT want to be in her ears the next day. She WILL pump the kids for information about you and your husband, your finances, and your lives. Don’t give her ammunition.
If the kids ay “Mom lets us do that” you can reply, “well, your mother isn’t here now, and this is my responsibility, so this is the way we do it at YOUR DAD’S HOUSE.” If your husband is around, you might have HIM talk to the kids, rather than them be instructed by you, so that you stay out of the “middle” between her and the kids as much as possible. I know that isn’t going to be 100% but she will do everything she can to sabo your relationship with the kids and their dad.
Hi Ox Drover, thank you! … yeah, I don’t really ever speak with her. Unfortunately however, I am stay at home stepmom, and she the control queen [of course], so sets up EVERYTHING. While she really needs to copy me on scheduling changes, she has [of course] refused to do so, so it’s up to my husband to tell me things, and he is eternally swamped at work. I had to laugh at this recently though, one kid showed up here, not having seen anyone to pick this kid up at school, and crazy-Mom calls me to ask if I told this kid who’d be picking him up after school! It was kind of… perfect. I noted something like, “I think this is why I have asked to be notified about scheduling.” She refuses to let me know, and then tries to blame me for the kid not seeing the right car. It’s so absurd it’s funny, almost. But for her belligerence and hostility.
Anyway, I heard her use the “genetic”-lying link by hearing her say to my husband, “You keep saying the lying [which we see in one kid] is genetically linked to me. You are trying to take the kids away from me.” Which of course we are not trying to do, but what I found very interesting is that she used that word, “genetically” re this lying, which my husband had that weekend just brought up to her as being a problem, in terms of setting a good example, with one kid in particular. Given SHE used the word, even though I’ve read about that connection and genetic-connection possibility, I just wondered how much about what she may or may not be -path-wise. I have a smidge of interest in knowing if she sees this in herself, if possible [though I can see it would be impossible to hear this from her mouth, if she does know]. I just found it way “coincidental” that she used that word when my husband nor I have used that word with her about her lying and her passing this behavior on to one of the kids [at least / so far].
My husband is way less in tune with the stuff I’ve been researching about this, and he’s not even all that interested. He notes that he has “made it work,” which has basically been saying yes to her every request since their divorce. Which for me is mostly fine except that she has actually gotten into his + my plans on several occasions, as well as our plans with the kids a number of times. That part is no good, and the husband claims he won’t let it happen again. My fingers are crossed.
From what I have read, I see that it will never end, her lunacy will never be sated, so that it ends. I am fearing how much she will attempt to escalate. We have seen it recently over nothing, relatively, which, while it makes me laugh because she is actually using the word “legal” and there is no legal basis regarding anything she’s mentioning, it does make me at least a smidge afraid for the future. And I see how it does influence my husband and gets him to do some jumping, and at least tempering/replying.
Most of their interactions are email, which is good in terms of documentation. He does seem to know that she is absurd and needs to be treated [by him] as if a dangerous person in a looney bin, with kid gloves. He calls it “hurricane avoidance,” but I can see his perspective. She will put us down however she can with the kids, but, what can you do about that? It seems like there’s not really much, and just count on the kids to grow up to see things as they are.
Your advice to simply keep our things to ourselves, which has been what I have been asking my husband to do regarding all of my details since moving here, to avoid the kids saying anything, so hopefully that will stick, with my husband. He notes he doesn’t see the point, so that’s why I would appreciate very much if he would take enough interest to learn more about it, in terms of his kids anyway, I would think he would be somewhat compelled.
But thank you again for your response, Ox Drover. I really do appreciate your advice. *Is there a particular spot on this site for “married to or into close proximity of spaths” ? Thanks again. 🙂
To the awareness question…
I think that spaths know they are different from most people. By the time they are adults, they’ve often heard remarks and reprovals for their lying, questioning about their lack of guilt…
So, they know. But they know in a way to see themselves as superior over everyone else: they are different, a superior human being who is not weakened by morality and feelings of guilt and empathy as the rest of the world is, who can walk amongst them and use them for their own pleasure and benefit without an afterthought.
And with an average intelligence, a spath who knows that they’ve allways been different even in their first memories, would nowadays logically assume it’s genetic, rather than suspecting they’re a changeling who the elfs dropped off
Dear Newstepmom,
No there’s no special place for a “category” of relationships with these people.
Basic learning about psychopaths in GENERAL will help ARM YOU against her manuvers though. KNOWLEDGE IS POWER and so you need to learn as much as you can about how they operate. There is a great deal of sameness in some of them, though NO TWO are exact.
I have a sperm donor who was before his death a psychopath, and a son who is one (in prison for murder) had a DIL who was before she went to prison, my sperm donor’s mother was one, and I have heard enough about her father to think he was one, and my egg donor’s brother and one of her grandfathers were definitely Ps….so even though my family was for the most part “upper middle class” and educated at college level, we had some real “white trash” when you looked behind the masks that they wore in public. My son is the first one to violate the law and GET CAUGHT as a “common criminal.” Several others should have gone to prison though for how they treated their wives and the rest of the family.
Psychopaths can be skid row bums, or they can be in the White House (read: Bill Clinton for one) or the governor’s offices of several states recently. They can be dumber’n’a rock, or have an IQ in the 99.9th percentile (again:read Bill Clinton)
Hi darwinsmom and Ox Drover, I really appreciate hearing from you. … It’s clear that my situation, while alarming for me, isn’t nearly as unfortunate as those I hear from on this site as well as from my new friend in this new-to-me area who grew up with a spath mother.
Ox Drover, you are so surrounded it sounds like, so, what do you do then, in your interactions with all of these people in your life?
My husband essentially has “kept peace” with her by not allowing her hornets’ nest to be activated, or, he just says yes to everything she asks for, including in the past big money (in the divorce, while she earned more than he did/does and spent ALL of his money so that now he and I have nothing), and now all of her absurd smaller charges that come monthly.
He keeps wondering why it’s no good to just keep doing as she requests, as long as it’s nothing that will, really, disturb his life. I argue that at least parts of her monthly bills will end up disturbing our lives in that she will go for as much spending as possible just for kicks, while he and I will not be able to spend anything on us, ever (including getting ourselves out of the house they chose together). He also doesn’t acknowledge that he’s controlled by her, yet I point out tiny things she says that are her attempt to control him and us, and he minimizes those, though will at least acknowledge them a little bit.
The thing is, he does have a point in that I am also -allowing- her to aggravate me, which is possibly her goal. So, mightn’t it all be better for everyone if I just say yes, too?
How can it benefit us for me to be able to convince my husband to be a “grey stone” to her — what will we get out of this to benefit our lives? She will always be relentless, and will never be sated, true, though is there a real reason to say no unless or until she goes for something really big?
I mean, I see those future costs ahead, and have talked to my husband about those (college, she will try to make it all his responsibility), but other than that I’m wondering what else can happen? We have heard through the kids that she is thinking of moving to Europe, though we have consulted with an attorney, and it’d be best for the kids if she does want/try that because there are strict laws in this state making that illegal and pretty much impossible for one parent to execute, and the kids would need to stay here with us which would minimize their contact with her.
I’ve been reading more, also, and the “type” I am seeing in her, and in the kids unfortunately, is the bullying type full of criticism, tattling, complaining about little things but non stop. Unfortunately both kids do this, though more so in one, who I’ve also seen lying, manipulating, bossing around, and disturbingly to me occasionally faking injury, and is recently talking about the technique to strangle people that kills them, poison, and … something else like that which I’ve forgotten at the moment that freaked me out. This kid is 9, for pete’s sake. The other kid talks about lying to win court cases to win copyright materials from their creator, oddly, but the slant disturbs me of course.
It sounds like you need to leave your DH. he is abusive. My DH has a sociopathic ex wife but he is a wonderful man and husband and father to my child. So I can deal with his crazy ex wife. She has no friends, her own family tells us what she is really doing or rather not doing. They report to us always. But we have been sworn to secrecy not to tell her what we actually know, we are just recording the conversations, documenting her every move, and keeping our distance and we are both going to expose her for who she is when the time is right. My DH is loving and supporting and hates his ex. Yours seems to be confused on who to support. Screw that. He is crazy. U will be crazy to if u stay in this situation. My husband is am attorney and an awesome one. But passive at home, he is my best friend and the ex has tried to cause conflict. And it was stressful at first but after 5 years of marriage we have learned how to deal with her. We DONT DEAL WITH HER! WE DO NOT EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE SHE IS ALIVE. WE PRETEND NOT TO KNOW HER. WE DONT TALK ABOUT HER TO ANYONE. We let her talk talk talk and we say nothing. We have given her the rope, And leaving her just enough to hang herself with. She will soon enough. Because she doesn’t know that her family is reporting back to us about everything. If she found out she would kill us all. So we would deny it and they for sure would
What is a DH?
This article was very helpful to me. I noticed in your last post you are questioning saying ‘yes’ to her to get her to shut up. I think the answer is the opposite. Say NO. NO MORE, as the article i copied and pasted states below. This truly did turn the tables for me and put ME in control of my life.
Dealing with a sociopath
Have absolutely No Contact
The best way to deal with a sociopath is not to deal with him. Reject him. Cut him off. Have absolutely No Contact.
No Contact means do not talk to him on the phone. Do not send, open or reply to e-mail. No instant messages or text messages. No cards, letters or packages. And certainly do not see him. (All of this applies to female sociopaths as well.)
If you’re in the midst of legal battles with the sociopath, let all communication go through your lawyer, accountant or another intermediary. (Make sure they understand how sociopaths operate.)
Change the dynamics
Why is No Contact important? Sociopaths are experts at breaking down their victims, piece by piece. If you have contact with him or her, you will be back in the game and the sociopath will continue to manipulate you. To begin your recovery, you must put him or her out of your life.
“No Contact changes the dynamics of the situation. The victim is now in control.” That’s the view of the manager of The Narcissist and Psychopath website, who has helped hundreds of people.
With No Contact, you are saying “no more.”
If you must have contact
Unfortunately, you may have no choice but to have contact with the sociopath, especially if you have children with him. If you’re in this situation, here are two important guidelines:
1. Always be on mental red alert when dealing with a sociopath.
2. Never deal with a sociopath alone; have a witness.
For more communication techniques, visit the abuse management page on The Narcissist and Psychopath website.
Out of the blue
Months or even years after you end it with the sociopath, he may show up again. He’ll tell you he’s in trouble, and you’re the only one who can help him. What do you do? Don’t bail him out. Ignore him. Let him suffer the consequences of his behavior.
He’s testing to see if he can start bleeding you again. Remember, sociopaths do not change.
I absolutely agree. NO CONTACT is a must when dealing with sociopaths. Our sociopath can’t stand the fact that her ex husband will not respond to anything she text him. I sometimes feel bad for her. Because sometimes she seems to just want a response to a question about that kids. But then I have to remember the horrible thing she has said about me and my husband. And I have to wonder is she really a sociopath, or maybe she is suffering from mental illness like bi-polar disorder.
She has many sociopathic traits, like the pathological lying, the spreading lies about me to ruin my reputation, lying to the kids about me, starting drama between me and the kids. But she also is up and down. We will hear from her nonstop for about 4 days and she is texting my husband or me – novel long text. And she seems to be on some sorta manic up, then we hear nothing from her for 5-6 days and the kids will text us and ask us to do this or that for them because their Mom is asleep. She will literally be up, and awake and doing and going and nonstop for days at a time, then she passes out for days at a time. When I say passes out, I mean she is out cold, nothing will wake her up. She won’t respond to text from her kids when they are with us. She is in the bed dead asleep. Then all the sudden she is up again, causing chaos and conflict and texting my husband, knowing he won’t respond to her. He established the “no contact” rule about a year and a half ago. He says that since he hasn’t responded to all of her crazy demands and drama, that he is less stressed.
He doesn’t give her any money, except the monthly child support. He of course pays their medical and dental. This really makes her angry. Of course she blames me for it. She said that before me they got along great. My husband tells a different story. He said it’s been hell since she decided she wanted children (which was only about a month after they married) and she could never have children on her own, they went thru many failed IVF treatments.
Then after they got their 2nd child she started cheating and partying. Which she wanted to be a “mother” so bad.. I don’t get it why if she wanted to be a mother so badly, why she went to the desperate measures she went thru to have children, only to neglect them and never be home afterwards… I just don’t get it.
I always appreciate comments about human behavior that show how much we operate on instinctual/animal levels. In particular, Oxy’s comments regarding her experiences with various animals are right on.
I also liked what Dr. Leedom said in this piece:
“…let us consider our friend’s analogy of the psychopath and our relations with him/her to the horse and horseback riding. Horses are domesticated animals.
“Domestication means they have been bred to have the capacity for submissive behavior and impulse control. These two (submissive behavior and impulse control) are supported by a very complicated biology that includes hormones and brain structure.
“The psychopath lacks both the brain structure and hormonal profile to behave submissively or even consistently cooperatively.
“The best horse analogy to the sociopath is the horse who dies in the process of being ridden because s/he lacks the substrate for domestication. This horse is not a challenge, s/he is a waste of time and energy.”
I used to think that with enough love and understand, people could be turned around. I also thought that everyone was born good. I believe we are taught that.
I don’t know of any school of thought that teaches that people are born evil. If anyone knows, I’d appreciate hearing about it.
I hope as we learn more and the information gets out that people will realize that smiles and pleasantry do not equate with “goodness.”
I do not believe that the Devil makes people do evil things. If we have free choice, then our decisions are ours.
But what about Ps? Is it free choice that drives them to do what they do? I cringe when I read suggestions that their behavior should be tolerated with the insinuation that they cannot help themselves.
This isn’t politically correct by any means, but I feel that psychopaths don’t qualify as humans. It is the normal human being’s capability for remorse that makes us as humans. Without it, Ps are monsters who appear in human form.
In keeping with Dr. Leedom’s statement that attempting to train a horse that cannot be domesticated is a waste of time, and Oxy’s experience that there are animals that will hurt for the sake of hurting, I no longer am opposed to the death penalty.
To paraphrase Dr. Leedom, not using the death penalty on a P is a waste of compassion.
I also believe in reincarnation. We cannot kill the soul. If the body/mind is flawed, release it. Put the animals down. With luck, they’ll be born again with minds capable of remorse and guilt.
Am I serious about this? Yes and no. I do not expect society to ever take a stance as I just described. I realize that the suggestion is too extreme, calls all sorts of ethics into question, and will make many people very uncomfortable.
But if I were ever asked to flick the switch to start the execution of a convicted P, would that trouble me? Not if I were convinced that invidual was a true P.
I’d like to add, as a cat lover, that I’ve read that there are two types of feral cats.
One type is submissive. It will fight if challenged, but given enough space and patience, this type will tolerate some kind of human interaction.
The other type is aggressive. They will never change no matter how cute we think they are, how often or what we feed them, or what we do. They will never let humans approach. They will attack.
Stronger now….great post.
Been there…done that.
And, yes, they are NERVY and they do come back…waltzing into your life as if nothing happenned!
I am “stronger” now….and I am wise to them…
I avoid them…and I will never be fooled again….
Ever.
I have been reading a lot of James Patterson books lately…
WOW…..he really understands sociopathy and can create characters that are true sociopaths.
He worked in the field…..firsthand.