I received this question from a woman who is divorcing a man she believes has the traits of a psychopath (according to the psychopathy checklist):
“What psychological tactics can you suggest in dealing with a psychopath? There must be some tools and strategies to stay a step ahead. I’ve read books on identifying liars and tried to educate myself on strengthening my position in recognizing The Predator. There has to be some guidelines somewhere on How to Ride That Horse. I have had hundreds of horses throughout my life and pride myself on being able to ride anyone that crosses my path. Although this horse has been the most difficult and I continue to be dragged, trampled and kicked, I continue to get back up, dust myself off and try again. I have learned much and he has been a great teacher…..but in the final stages of our divorce, he is throwing some wild curve balls and I’m desperately trying to stay in the saddle. I ride all my horses softly, gently…..Can you offer tools for the arsenal?”
Before answering this question I want to make some important comments. Many people have reasons for needing and desiring relationships with people who are very sociopathic/psychopathic (sociopaths). In my view, there are only two legitimate reasons for having interactions with someone you believe may be “a sociopath.” The first is that the person is your boss and you haven’t yet found another job, and the second is that there is a court order commanding you to. That the sociopath is charming, attractive, wealthy, your son, daughter, friend, lover, mother, father or some other relation, is not a good enough reason to risk yourself and others.
Whenever you interact with a sociopath, you not only risk yourself, you risk others. Sociopaths weave a web of deception that is supported by the many relationships they have. If people refuse to participate in the sociopath’s life he/she will be very limited in his/her ability to harm anyone. Sociopaths/psychopaths know how to surround themselves with people who give them legitimacy in the minds of others and who serve as “cover.” They will use anyone for this purpose, especially ministers, priests and rabbis, and of course, children.
If you desire to have a relationship with a known sociopath there is something wrong with you. That something can be ignorance of the disorder and its dangerousness. A sense of grandiose invincibility and a love of risk taking can also feed into this desire. If you are an adventurous risk-taker, take up blizzard mountain exploration or sky diving, but keep away from sociopaths. Many people write me with a tone of wonder, awe and admiration for sociopaths. Save your wonder, awe and admiration for the Grand Canyon, the pyramids of Egypt, or the true miracles of life, please. (Here I am referring also to the women who send love letters to known killers and serial killers.)
Those comments out of the way, how can you cope successfully with a sociopath/psychopath? First, remember that these people are Driven to Do Evil. Just like you wake up every day and feel your drives and desires, sociopaths/psychopaths wake up every morning and “It’s show time!” Whereas your goals are intimately related to the love and compassion you feel for others, a sociopath’s goals are intimately related to his/her desire to gain power over others. If you don’t understand this at the core of your being, you will not be able to deal with sociopaths. Second, imagine a moment what your life would be like if guilt, empathy and compassion did not enter into your decision making processes. Imagine that your decisions were based solely on your judgments regarding what would benefit you.
Now imagine both together, a Drive to Do Evil and no guilt, empathy or compassion. A sociopath is a sports car with an accelerator and no braking system. Now you can see why I say only an ignorant, crazy or suicidal person would voluntarily choose to ride this horse, or drive this car!
I have just armed you with the mental picture of the sociopath who you are compelled to deal with. To successfully cope, keep this picture in your mind at all times. Ignore any of the sociopath’s actual appearance or behavior. Keep all conversations brief and to the point. Set firm boundaries and never give an inch. Insist that you get everything due you, and that the sociopath abide by his/her end of any court orders, or job descriptions. Most importantly, STOP expecting that the sociopath will behave like anyone other than who he/she is. A sociopath is a person who is Driven to Do Evil and who lacks, guilt, empathy and compassion.
To make this point further, let us consider our friend’s analogy of the psychopath and our relations with him/her to the horse and horseback riding. Horses are domesticated animals. Domestication means they have been bred to have the capacity for submissive behavior and impulse control. These two (submissive behavior and impulse control) are supported by a very complicated biology that includes hormones and brain structure. The psychopath lacks both the brain structure and hormonal profile to behave submissively or even consistently cooperatively. The best horse analogy to the sociopath is the horse who dies in the process of being ridden because s/he lacks the substrate for domestication. This horse is not a challenge, s/he is a waste of time and energy.
So stick with the horses that have been beautifully trained to compete in the show ring, and who lovingly wait by the fence for you to appear. These horses enjoy cooperation and don’t mind having to submit occasionally. The untrainable horses are a complete waste of time. Surround yourself with people you know to be primarily motivated by love and compassion. To do otherwise, is a complete waste of time and energy.
I love that I got another head to put in my hat. And I allow healthy women to fill my head with healthy thoughts and I know peace today. Thanks to you and your honesty and support. This site washed him and out and allows room for a healthy mind to grow and love.
I allowed him to brainwash me. I believe we can change so it doesn’t happen again. But it takes some doing on our parts. I am willing to keep on doing the doing.
Iradessa,
I too get more for myself out of helping others, because we all share so much. Each of us has a different “take” on things but they are all focused on healing. When I see a newbie come here and they are in SUCH pain that I inwardly weep for them, yet I know that they are in a safe place here and they will start to heal, and then in only a few weeks you see them giving advice to another newbie and you realize how you helped them, so they can HELP THEMSELVES AND THEN HELP OTHERS TOO…it is passed on, and MULTIPLIED over and over and over with healing.
I think of all the people in my life that I maybe saw a time or two but they went out of their way to help me…most of those people have moved on in their lives and I can’t help them to “pay them back” for their kindnesses, but if I pass it on to someone else then I am “paying it back” to the Universe at least and just like “bread cast upon the waters” it will float somewhere to do some good for someone.
Sometimes just a kind word or a smile to a harried young mother in a grocery check out line is a wonderful gift to her. You will never see her again, but if you lift her spirits for just a moment it may be the most pleasant moment of her day. I have been on the receiving end of so many tiny nice things like that that I feel if I don’t repay in any way I can I would be ungrateful for those gifts of caring which were given to me.
I can’t fix the world (though I thought I could when I was 18) but all I can do is just help where I am, how I can. It won’t fix the entire world, but maybe it will give comfort to one person for one minute—and that is enough. “A cup of water, given in My name..”
Hello,
I just found this site today and after reading some of the post, I know this is a blessing for me. It is conforting to know I am not the only person that has been a victim of craziness. I felt absolutly stupid for getting myself in a situation to be manipulated. I have come to the conclusion to just leave him alone…no contact…and the minimal by email. It is extremely hard as, we have a 6 yr old daughter. Not that he contributes to her well being, but he puts on the act of father of the year. So ridiculous. But now I have found this blog and it is enlighting to get advice from those who have survived. I regretfully have to deal with for at least 12 more years…or until my daughter realizes her father is different and not like normal people. I hope she get a clue soon so we both can leave this madness behind us and move on.
Can someone help me? My dealings with a step daughter have me doubting my own sanity. I married her father 30 years ago. I knew the first moment I saw her that something was wrong. I had a total and complete biological reaction to her. I felt exposed, like I was prey. She was 2 !!! Now she is 32, married with 2 kids and I still feel like she is in the house. I always feel like she is watching me, plotting against me, but in such a subtle, sneaky way. Her grandmother was a sociopath, her mother was one, she is one, and now her oldest daughter is one! It has only been the last couple of years that I have come to understand what she is. Her mother abandoned her when she was a baby, left her Daddy to raise her, and pretty much stayed away. I was in love, and had a daughter myself and of course had a vision of being able to love her and make a happy family. It was only after we married that I realized the full extent of her problems. By then I was pregnant with “our” child and even though I was so overwhelmed, I have come to the conclusion that I should have never married him. It is only my enduring love for her father that has kept me here for 30 years. She is a demon. But she is so sneaky and so smooth that she has most people fooled. She can’t keep a job, uses people, is a thief, a liar, immoral, and if you ever cross her she will crucify you. She married the most wonderful young Christian man about 7 years ago and has systematically succeded in destroying him.She is horrible to his mother, I mean she has tormented this woman using the grandchildren.And yet he continues to stand by her and always takes her side. I think he is scared to death of her. There is no way I could ever go into every reason she has brought me to this place. She has such total control over the men in her life, they will go to any length not to cross her. She always saw me as an enemy that came between her and her Daddy, she sees the mother in law as competition for the husband. It has to be genetic. Her oldest child is exactly like her! But her other little girl doesnt’ have IT !! It is so strange. You feel like she scans you , her facial expressions can turn in an instant. She can get you back for stuff in ways that you would never expect. She can think on her feet better than anyone I ever met, she can talk her way out of anything. She lies about everything. She can seduce any man she wants and she is not even pretty, she just knows how to work it. She is so scary because she comes across so normally ….she can strike when you least expect it. There has always been an animalistic quality about her. She toys with people. She loves to watch them squirm. She loves to throw you off balance. She loves to corner you and put you on the spot. Her father and I have been able to hold the family together for the most part, but I am a Christian and am finding it harder and harder to even have her in my life. I am trapped and will have to just put up with it. I have become very good at “bobbin and weavin”…if she is at my house I keep a very close eye on her, hide my purse and try to keep her at arm’s length. If she is in one room, I try to go in another room. I try to change the subject when I can and just keep the peace when possible. I just want to tell you how much this site has helped me and if others have the chance to “get out while you can”….my gut, my instincts, and everything in me screamed at me to run all those many years ago, but I did not listen. If you gut is telling you to run….listen to it……when somebody shows you who they are….BELIEVE THEM !!!! They don’t get better…..they don’t change…they will destroy you,one little “gotcha” at a time, until you don’t even trust your own sanity…it is a really bad feeling to try to explain them to someone and they just don’t get it ! My normal baby daughter and I have always used the term “icky” to describe her…..I cannot even remember what life was like before she was in it. Thanks guys for listening to me vent. God Bless
Dear creampuff, you have EXACTLY described BOTh of my spath daughters, aged 44 and almost 46! If you care to look back at my blogs about them, you have described them both to a T!
More later! Love, geminigirl.XX Ps I am not the same,’gemini’ as the one in the post above yours.Gem.
Creampuff:
Your post kinda freaked me out at first…..(noharm meant)….because I keep expecting my ex mil to show up here…..or someone from ‘his’ family……
Your story describes the s ex perfectly…..although i’m sure if you’ve read any of the posts….it describes a lot of our ‘stories’…..
I’m not sure what your asking for…..but I think it’s what do I do?
I think you have a great handle on ‘what’ your dealing with and have listened to your gut….and your advise to others is so spot on!!!
Tha’ts the first step…..’getting it’!!!!!
You ‘got it’ girl!!
Well….I am assuming your tired of it and don’t wish to live like this anymore…..without some validation from your husband or other family members of ‘her’ behaviors….
It’s tough…..and the best way to expose it to do it silently and with intent.
Never let anyone ‘close’ know what your up to……but YOU have to change the way you’ve dealt with her up until now….
You need to ‘plant seeds’ and let HER water the seedlings……and you can sit back and watch her expose herself.
Remove yourself from her manipulations….subtly….if she usually comes to you for something…..pawn her off on her father……(this will piss her off too…..)
Things like that.
Never be in a room alone with her……always have a ‘witness’…..to her behaviors…..soon enough….they will see….
then you can plant the seeds of CLuster B’s….in your hubby’s head……maybe leave a book laying around or a pamplet on cluster B’s or sociopaths……in a ‘not so obvious’, but obvious place…..like by a telephone or on top of the desk you both share……. covertly….
Ya see….you’ve probably already figured this out…..that you can’t ‘shove’ this info down someones throat by speaking about it……they get defensive…..and until they see the behaviors and ‘get it’….and connect with it…..they remain or may even go closer to the S.
Like your husband defending his daughter or grandaughter…..I could see this no doubt…..defensive….
And you’d be the old bitty who is jelous of them, for whatever reasons…….
that’s how that’d go….
So….educate yourself as much as possible….read the articles here….and post whenever you need to…..we can relate and you will find support and validation here……
Maybe if you share a computer…..leave up a screen on sociopaths….like the warning signs….when you know hubby will be on the computer……
If you wnat to remain anonymous and continue to post freely, I’m not so sure I’d leave up LF….maybe later….
Eventually, he may start ‘getting’ it…….but you just can’t hold your breath…….
They will always have someone in their corner to scream to the world that they are just ‘misunderstood’…..or they are like this because their mother abandoned them……yadayada…..
These are my thoughts……and I hope they offer you something to think about….
Welcome to LF….I’m very glad you found our little slice of society that ‘gets it’…..and can understand what your going through!
In the meantime……take care of YOURSELF!!!!
Again, welcome!!
XOO
EB
Dear Creampuff,
Welcome, I’m glad you found LoveFraud, but gosh am I sorry you felt a need to search for this place.
Sounds like you have already got the part about figuring out what they ARE and HOW THEY BEHAVE down pat, and it sounds like the 30 years “experience” you have with this child/woman has been not only educational but painfully educational.
Her manipulating the “men” in her life is very typical, and I am assuming from your post that maybe her father doesn’t “get” what she is doing either.
Having one of these PEOPLE in the “family” and dividing the family is very painful as many of us can testify as there is always a “division of sides” where they are concerned.
I gave birth to one of these monsters and grew up in a family with a high proportion of them, and their ENABLERS/DUPES behaving as their “psychopaths by proxy” doing their bidding.
I’m not sure what the “answer” to your “question” is—if there is a question or if there is an answer, but YOUARE NOT ALONE in this, there are others of us out there who have these human reptiles in our families, and we know the pain of trying to deal with it.
“Outing” them may or may not be possible as it isn’t just a matter of LOGIC or TRUTH, it is “emotional” attachment, or trauma bonding. Protecting yourself with witnesses may be the best tactic for now until you decide what you want to do with YOUR life. God bless you!
Thanks everyone….such a comfort to know we are not alone. I guess I really wasn’t asking for a solution to my problems….just advice on coping. I appreciate the suggestions. Does anyone out there experience how to deal with them from a Christian perspective? On the one hand my Christian beliefs demand us to love everyone, but on the other hand I do believe in evil in this world and think they are pawns of Satan, used to distract and destroy us Christians using the very tools that make us loving and compassionate. That has been my biggest struggle. Trying to resolve in my own head that she is not redeemable. I have just felt so torn inside. Is it ever right to just give up on someone? I went to a Christian counselor a few years ago trying to resolve some of the conflict in my heart, but she didn’t “get it”…..after a few sessions I felt like I was the crazy one, so I didn’t go back. I am convinced that until you have dealt with one in your own life, you cannot really describe them to “outsiders”. Looking back over these past 30 years so many things are now explaining themselves to me. How she had absolutely NO impulse control as a child, how she lied about everything, how she was insanely jealous of other females, how she NEVER slept, she would roam around the house at night so quietly and sneaky like she was a ghost or something. And when she did sleep she looked so strange, almost like she was dead or something. I know this is so strange and I have never uttered this to another soul, but I have always thought she had immoral thoughts and desires for her own father (my husband).She would kiss him right on the lips and look longingly into his eyes in an almost romantic way. Of course he would brush her off, but I think he thought it too, but could not allow himself to “go there”. She has always hugged him a little too long, a little too closely, it just really creeps me out! I sometimes wish I could just scrape her off me, like she’s a virus or something that lays dormant for awhile, but in the end it always rears it’s ugly head. Does anyone else feel like that even if you moved 1,000 miles away they would still be in your head? It drives you crazy. I am just so tired of feeling like prey. Trying to outsmart them or at least stay one step ahead of them is so draining. As for her father, he has admitted that he knows she has problems, but he is so passive agressive himself that he will avoid conflict with her at any cost, mostly for the sake of the 2 grandchildren. I think deep down he is scared of her too. My main concern is the Christian vantage point. I feel guilty because I CANNOT LOVE HER !!! All I ever want to do is just get away from her. Thanks again for all the help. We all need a place to vent.
I’ll tell ya……the religious view was what brought my MIL right back to her spath stepson…….
I’ve questioned it, since watching her quandry….
She would tell me of the conversations she had with her pastor….and the forgiveness deal…..
Then I KNOW the reality…….and how the S would exploit her religious viewpoints and niceties…….
Funny thing……no one in the church would turn away someone claiming to be ‘with god’…..or a believer……
This is the spaths new approach…….he’s a christian?!?! YIKES…..
But, thats the whole deal of the church……accept everyone…..
I just can’t buy into it! Watching the spath exploit those true believers…..
This is where I believe its prudent to mesh/blend…..real life….2010…..with your religious beliefs…..
and the wisdom to know the difference.
I don’t mean to offend anyone….this was/is a sore spot to me….cuz of the spath…..and seeing what hes’s currently doing to gain supply and more victims…….through his ‘newfound’ religion.
Just my view.
Dear Creampuffr,
The problems I had with being a Christian and “loving” them was the DEFINITION of the word “Love”–I studied the Bible on this and talked with very educated ministers of several denominations and what I ended up with is this>
The word “Love” in the Bible is NOT A GUSHY FEELING, it is an ACTION. If you “love your neighbor as thy self” you are TREATING THEM WELL, not setting fire to their panties.
Forgiving them is kind of the same way. Forgiveness as demonstrated in the story of Joseph whose brothers sold him into slavery was not the same as TRUSTING them again. He got the bitterness against them out of his heart, but he TESTED them to see what kind of menn they had become in the 20+ years since he had seen them. He TESTED them pretty harshly, but saw in the end that they had changed and would literally SACRIFICE themselves to save Benjamin rather than let Benjamin be taken as a slave and their father go to his grave grieving because of it.
The apostle Paul told us that in dealing with a brother (fellow Christian or I think also someone in close family would qualify) if we had a problem with them to go to them privately and to talk to them about it. If that didn’t work, then to go to talk to them with witnesses. If that didn’t work, to go to the church about the problem. THEN if that didn’t work, to WITHDRAW FELLOWSHIP with them, NOT EVEN TO EAT WITH THEM.
This is what I did with my egg donor, actually, though, the “church” would not listen or believe me or what I had to say. However that is what my way of going about it was.
Jesus also said that we must look at the FRUIT that people produce and see what kind of “tree” they are. If the fruit is rotten so is the tree. Now it may be that your husband doesn’t see what is going on at all.
Yesterday in post 116 ROSA posted a quote from the book “Stalking the Soul” about EMOTIONAL ABUSE that might apply to what you are going through. ” this is a cold, verbal violenced composed of disparagement, implied hostility, and condescending and wounding insults. The destructive effects come from seeminglharless but continuous attacks that one knows will never stop. Every insult echoes previous ones, which makes it impossible to forget….” and so on.
You might want to get this book, in fact I think I will do that myself.
If your husband and other men in the family are under her “spell” it may be difficult to rally forces against her, because she WILL NEVER CHANGE and will turn this around to bite YOU and your daughter in the butt. The only way to deal with these people is to get away from them, NO contact, or such limited contact that they can’t damage you.
You can ALSO train your mind to not let this get to you as it has in the past (difficult but doable.) My son and I have a dear friend who is married to one of these “drama queens” and we tolerate her in order to maintain a relationship with HIM.
It used to be much more difficult and painful for me to be around her than it has become, because I turned off my emotions toward her. I really do not have any “love” (the gushy kind) for her at all. She is just in my opinion, something I don’t want to be around and I limit the amount of time I spend with her.
It is difficult if your husband insists on entertaining her and her P offspring, etc or giving her money etc. but you may want to come to an understanding with him about your involvement with this P.
A cousin of mine and her husband adopted his biological niece and she is a P. Finally after several years they agreed to disagree. He continued to support the adopted dtr somewhat by buying a small house she could live in, but no other financial support and he would go see the dtr whenever he wanted to, but he did not come home and talk about the girl/woman and he and his wife did fine, agreeing to disagree and he had at least some relationship with the dtr but his wife did not. So each at least was able to “live with” that arrangement. I hope you are able to work something out with your husband and the rest of the members of your family.
Backk years ago my egg donor (previously called mother) made my life hell because I did not want to share holidays with her brother Uncle Psychopathic Monster, she would try to guilt me by crying and telling me how I was RUINING HER Holidays, obviously she never got it that SHE was ruining mine. But I would pick up my kids and go else where for the holidays rather than share them with her Brother Uncle monster. Rinse and repeat next holiday. To this day I don’t really care much about the “holidays”—
But I am hoping that you can work something out thatj will be at least semi satisfying with you and your daughter and your husband and THAT daughter and the rest of the family.
One of my step son’s wife is a “drama queen” and when he would come to visit with his father before my husband’s death, I would just go somewhere else—“OOPs, sorry, had plans.” We get along okay now and she has become much more “civilized” in her behavior and the nasty cracks have stopped. Thank goodness he finally laid down the law to her after their only child was 18—and set boundaries. You want to keep bieng married ot me, cut the BS! Act nice or else!
I hope your husband will “get it” and be supportive to you, but if he doesn’t that wouldn’t be a big suprise either.
I think that book that Rosa quoted from though might jbe a good one for you. Good luck and God bless ((((Hugs)))))