Recently a man wrote me saying that his best friend has been more hurtful than helpful when it comes to helping him recover from his relationship with a sociopathic woman. He had the following comment and question. I am sure many of you will relate to this one, especially you guys out there.
I have a best friend who I talked to (of course I desperately needed to get my self-identity back). He instantly tried to help me by seeing my own flaws in the relationship and what I could do better, and stated that I overreacted. Of course, his “help” only contributed to her brainwashing and manipulation because it further fueled my questioning about myself, and further made me believe that I was at fault. This reinforced my guilt and shame in which I can now see that I had no reason to experience.
In this regard, my best friend became my worst enemy because he had no clue. I still believe he meant well, though. Of course, my friend has a good impression of her and have never felt the damaging effect of being in a relationship with a sociopath.
So now I question whether he really is my best friend, since he made matters much, much worse (probably without realizing). How can we get a friend to understand what we have been dealing with, and the damaging effect on our emotional life and our self-esteem / self-respect?
Many of the behaviors and manipulations of sociopaths are entirely beyond the comprehension of the average person”¦or mental health professional for that matter. This past week, someone else told me the story of how he came to realize that his significant other was a sociopath. It turns out that the sociopath faked having cancer. This man told a family member and ask the question, “Who fakes having cancer?” Coincidentally a short time later that family member saw an MSNBC special on con artists where faking cancer was discussed. The person called my friend to say, “Hey I think I found out what’s wrong with ______ she’s a sociopath.” Well the man had never heard of “sociopath” before and had to research it. To his shock his lover met every one of the criteria!
Don’t despair if your friend doesn’t get it. Who would ever guess that there are people who appear normal and even affectionate and yet who are only motivated by power, greed and sex? Although we understand some people have problems with conscience and empathy, we believe that at heart all people want and need the same things we do. Very few understand that sociopaths have different needs and drives.
That gets me to my proposal. I think eventually we will want to go beyond this blog and web site and have a conference or start regional support groups. I think we should consider a conference for victims. I have had the very good fortune to correspond and speak on the phone with some other victims. We can finish each other’s sentences because we know what comes next. The sociopath’s methods are all strikingly similar. Perhaps that is the best evidence there is as to the existence of the syndrome.
I recognize there are many people who do not understand what I went through and who may blame me for my own suffering and the suffering of others at the hands of my former husband. It has been very important to my recovery that I have been able to talk with other victims who know firsthand the mind games and distortions of reality sociopaths are capable of.
Dr.Leedom,
Yes! I have been hoping this woould somehow evolve into something bigger. People just do not understand this.
A well meaning friend can be under the assumption that the relationship was just one of those things that didn’t work out and so they give misguided advice.
I would say that lack of validation, which is what we are seeking and talking about here, was a contributing factor for me and I am sure others to prolonging the nightmare. For me it definately was. I plan to write about this in the future. Two big things happened connected to an event I will call “Moment of truth” where I recieved some validation that facilitated the end.
And fast forward to after I left and was back home, I still couldn’t let go until I found LoveFraud. Here are LF, we finish eachother’s sentences, we predict for new readers that are still in the throes of turmoil what might happen next or even predict the Sociopaths next moves.. I think sometimes, this is key to pushing people over the line to the other side… the letting go side. The side labeled: “NO.. IT’S REALLY NOT YOU!” or “HE IS THE LIE” or “TREAT HIM LIKE A POTTED PLANT”… etc.
I plan to stick around because I want to be a part of whatever this evolves into and I hope my Grad School will come through and tie into this as well. I am broke but name the place and I will be there for any LoveFraud Conference, for sure!
This was my experience too. When the N started his odd behaviour at the start of the relationship, I was constantly phoning a dear friend and reporting the incidents. She was telling me that I should be more accepting of him, and that if that is how he is …that is him. So I was thinking perhaps I was being unreasonable, I was overriding my instincts. So in a sense by digesting her advice, I was learning to swallow more poison. Neither she, nor I at that point, realised that he was a Narcissist and that his maneouvering behaviour was tantamount to abuse.
Even post relationship, people looked at me mystified – like they didnt get it, because they had not encountered someone with PDisorder. When I explain how it goes, then they get the AHA moment.
Beverly,
Then tell us how you explain because I find it so hard to explain. People don’t get it and I mentioned before that I feel a loss of personal power when I try to talk about this outside of this forum. I always feel like I sound like a pathetic victim. And the story always sounds so crazy that people give you the look that says, “I would NEVER put up with things like that!!!”
I thought I wouldn’t either but after this experience I can not say for sure if I would have left immediately if I had been physically battered. I know too much now about the level of manipulation and the patterns and it can be the most confusing experience a person can ever have with another human being… that’s just what I think, anyway. :o)
BTW… I loved your thing about the potted plant. Perhaps we can move on to the neglected potted plant… the one that is whithering and dying in the corner… too far gone. HEHEHE
May I sit next to you at the LoveFraud conference? :o)
Free,
The “friend” sounds like she has serious issues of her own. I had a female P in my life and didn’t realize she was one for awhile. I think when they are your “friends” the behavior is slightly different, but still very strange. I’m not sure what this woman was, but I do know that whenever I said I liked something this “friend” liked it too, and suddenly would purchase the thing a few days or weeks later, and casually mention having it, pretending like she’d forgotten I ever said I liked it. Also, if a mutual acquaintance said something nice about me, on my taste in books or whatever, this friend would always petulantly chime-in “me, too!” or “I’m well-rounded, too!” or “I read alot, too!”
It got downright creepy as it increased in frequency and in the things I found intrinsic to who I am as a person. She was literally trying to “be” me. Years later, I get word from time to time that she’s looking for me, and last I saw her, when I told her what I did for a living, within a few months she showed up at the court system doing the exact same job for another company. Whatever her problem was, it was clear she lacked a self, utterly.
You can’t run far enough, fast enough to get away from “friends” who are messed-up. Your “friend” sounded off-kilter, too.
Amazing what we learn from bad experiences.
Free: I empathize with your note. After I gained my “freedom,” I found that several of my closest relationships changed, subtly at first, but then in big ways.
Getting people close to you to understand how something like this could have happened in the first place is very hard. Not being able to let go right way is another they don’t understand.
I get, “Well, he seems to have been able to start over with someone new and forget about you.” Well, of course, it’s his pathology to be able to move on without a look back.
I’m still sorting out that I tripped into his web at all and why. Lots of therapy talking about family systems and how my relationships within my family set the playing field early.
I can now see a strong parallel in my adult relationship patterns with men based on my relationship with my father. Emotionally distant, his affection and attention were prizes for me to win during my upbringing. If the niceties and buying him things did not get his attention, then I would act out, especially during my teen years.
During the last few months of my relationship with the Thief, I played head games with him just to watch him squirm–laughable now to think about it, but it was very painful at the time. He had no ideas of the things I did to manipulate HIM–even then, it still took some time for me to fully wake up to the way he had been manipulating me for years.
He got a DWI in another state visiting one of his quickie lovers and I paid for the lawyer. Of course, he told me he was in another state entertaining his ethnic community with song. He was actually with a women he had met at a music festival (I think); he probably met her on line.
He then told me he would be going to jail for nonpayment of child support to his second wife (who probably does not know that he has more kids than the ones she produced for him); I came up with a couple of thousand for that–stupidly, I did not ask him to sign a loan payment–I still thought there might be an inkling of humanness in him and trusted him.
When he ran like a coward out of the country, he never looked back. His last words to me were him screaming at the top of his lungs that he never wanted to see me again, never wanted to hear from me again, and never wanted to speak to me again.
Well, he had to see me at our childrens’ wedding and I think he’d been drinking for hours before that because he looked ghastly. I remember looking at him and thinking that I had been attracted to THAT?
Putting ourselves first feels strange at first, but it is so necessary to get beyond how we have been brought up so that we can do the necessary healing and growing.
well hi all; this is very interesting to me cause i worked with my spath ex boyfriend and he left this place of work thank god but i am still there. a lot of people i work with know him but dont know he is s path. at our work christmas party someone mentioned his name and i was like uh oh i d ont want to talk about him but anyway the conversation got around to how strange he was my friends were doing most of the talking and then i told them he is s path and they looked at me and said thats a bit harsh i wouldnt go that far! its like i could tell right off they thought spaths were only found in movies or mental hospitals or prison. like no idea. and one of my friends is spiritual and he looked at me like how mean to say that about this poor guy who was just a bit strange. anyway i said to him look up the meaning of the word s path they are pathilogical liars and bad people its a mental condition, i had had a few drinks it was a christmas party so i dont know if i explained it the best but after that i dropped it and i thought well as long i know it doesnt matter cause those people dont know half of what happened to me and probably wouldnt believe it if i told them anyway even though they care about me. its like the old saying a woman scourned . they even joked and said maybe i was the one stalking him . as long a s i know in my heart what he is and some people the really close ones like my mother ect thats all i care about its not up to me to explain and then be judged by others cause i wanted them to understand something they never can if they havent been there them selfs. i think some people know or suspect something is wrong with him but dont come out and say he has problems i remember his sister told me once hes not good with people! and she should know him very well i would think. at the time i didnt know what she meant and i didnt question but thought its a strage thing for a sistr to say. .your right about friends who try and manipulate or anyone i am very wary of that now if iam starting to get to know someone and they dont answer my calls or have strange excuses one too many times for not getting in contact i pretty much leave it and think i dont want to get to know them if they are like that thats how my s pth behaved playing games. best wishes to all of you.
hello, jules!
Well, guess it helps to look back at what we believed S’paths were before we encountered them ourselves: probably visions of drooling maniacs killing women, or at the very least, those in prisons.
It occurred to me this morning that the only people who really can understand and who really will NEED TO are those who’ve experienced a P or S’path trying to systemically destroy their lives. And once that happens, they will certainly understand.
I prefer to just point to specific actions, particularly those experienced by others – his lying, weird statements and behaviors – and watch as the “Aha!” bulb of shared realization turns itself on. They may not know what to call it, but they know it’s not right behavior.
Your wariness is good. When red flags are first raised they should be dealt with, and game playing is the hallmark of a P. Of course, some, like mine, got quite good at masking that at the beginning.
He actually said, early on, when I asked if he wanted to change the date of our meeting: No, I don’t want to start doing that to you yet. “
Two things: one, that indicated it was something he had done to people frequently in the past, and someone had called him on it or brought it to his attention. Two — notice the “yet”.
Yet.
As in “someday in the future, I will likely want to do this to you. I will probably do this. I am aware that this is how I operate but at this stage of the *game* I will not be doing that.”
Normal people do not say these kinds of things. I have never once said, “I don’t want to start doing something cruel, demeaning and unconscionable to you — YET.”
But disordered people say that crap all the time! Especially those that know they have a pathology. And trust me, he went through years of therapy — he KNOWS.
With the people I’m starting to see now, the minute one of them tells me they don’t want to do something crappy to me – YET – you can bet I’ll be running far and fast. They’re telling you who they are, doing things like that. Our job is to listen and believe them.
Atthe time of my P exp. I had an onlien friend who was pushing me to dump my husband and get into a sexual r/s with P.
She didn’t know him or really me I have to admit- we met online via blogs and began phone calling. I was (and still am) so lonely (but aware now) and listened to her. I thought I was missing out, that these new people (P and this woman) were
right….it took me awhile but her lying revealed her to me (she claimed tohave some mystery disease, on the edge of death) and he- well he wasn’t really interested in being my friend just duping me and putting a notch in his belt.
I earned some of what I am suffering- i should have never confided in the Psycho nor trusted that woman online. But I have learned be alone is better than surronded by the disordered.
Orphan and Free, it sounds like your two “friends” were Borderline Personality Disordered—first, they want to be your BEST and ONLY friend. If you have other friends they feel threatened.
Their lives are generally risk laden and chaotic as well…typical Personality disordered behavior. RUN!!! Sometimes they can be as dangerous as a P (Dr. Steve had a thread on this). I realize some of my closest friends were also instant attractions, but the subsequent relationships grew OVER TIME to be very close. The first thing that turns me OFF and raises a red flag is when someone upon first meeting me “puts in an application” to be my “best” friend. Starts wanting to do things for me, see me every day, call 2-3 times a day, etc. Or insist that I go with them here or there.
Yes, PEOPLE DON’T GET IT.
It seems to me that the people who are the LEAST LIKELY to get it are (A) personality disordered themselves or (B) so guileless that they can’t believe that there’s NOT “good in everyone.” (PUKE! REALITY CHECK!) It seems that the B-people are somehow threatened to admit to themselves that some people are SIMPLY EVIL.
I was fortunate that one of my sons, and my best friend DID GET IT about my P-son, and about my P-XBF during that break up. My psychiatrist “got it” and my therapist didn’t get it at first, and I am not sure he really does now even with the court documents, etc. to confirm that I was not and am not a “paranoid delusional nut case” thinking “everyone is out to kill me” (even though it was true! LOL)
Yes, I would love to see survivor support groups in every burg and city in the nation–and media coverage and educational programs and speakers that spoke to the GENERAL PUBLIC, not just to former or current victims. The whole thing I think is an EDUCATIONAL PROBLEM, or rather a lack of education to what a psychopath REALLY is, it isn’t just “Ted Bundy” or “Charlie Manson” but it is the minister, the doctor, the uncle, the daddy, the boy friend, the wife, the mother, the son, the daughter, the Boy Scout leader, the child molester, the lawyer, the PERSON NEXT DOOR, in short, ORDINARY PEOPLE.
Teachers need to be able to know how to recognize the “budding Ps:” in their classroom and have the knowledge of how to deal with them, to refer them, to differentiate them from the “normal acting out” that all kids do.
Mental health professionals need education, physicians need education, nurses need education, police, firemen, social workers, government officials, judges, family court professionals, in short, EVERY SEGMENT of society needs the education of what a P is, and how to deal with them successfully in all aspects of life.
Professional organizations need to know how to weed these people out, who may be quite bright and have some good academic credentials, for admission to law school, medical school, etc.
While there are of course not enough shelter beds for women and children of domestic violence, the domestic violence workers need to be educated and facilities expanded and funded appropriately.
The STIGMA of being a victim of domestic and/or sexual abuse needs to be addressed.
The Politically Correct notion that all social problems can be solved with “money” and “understanding” needs to be addressed in a REALITY MODE.
Criminal justice needs an overhaul so that psychopaths can be diagnosed and that taken into consideration with sentencing and parole guidelines. White collar psychopath’s crimes need to be addressed and realistically prosecuted and punished (or at least keep them out of circulation).
There are so many needs, both for care and healing for the victims, and preventing people from becoming victims by educating them so that they can spot the RED FLAGS before they become victims.
Family courts could make a big dent in helping this I think, by using the PCL-R as a mandatory screening for child custody hearings that are disputed or visitation etc. rather than force a mother to allow her child unlimited contact with a P-parent, or even giving custody of the child to the P-parent against the wishes of the nurturing parent.
Though I think that the general public’s views and the “blaming the victim” mentality is somewhat changing, as more courts and police are seeming to recognize that PHYSICAL domestic violence is unacceptable, NOT ENOUGH PROGRESS has been made in this direction.
In a way, SOME victims continue to contribute to their own victimization for some period of time (I did) by staying in an abusive relationship or returning to it over and over while in the FOG or Stockholm Syndrome, or malignant hope syndrome, be they parents of Ps or significant others. In my area, men who hit their wives are mandated into an “anger management” course, but the victims (who called the cops) are not given or mandated into any kind of treatment, and I think that they should be. “Treatment” I don’t think will help the P-wife beater, but “treatment” MIGHT HELP the victim break out of the fog.
Sorry for the “rant” guys—things may not be any better in November when I am “elected president” (or dictator) but they would sure be DIFFERENT! LOL My first official act will be to claim antarctica for the US’s P-prison colony and any “convicted” P will be shipped there one-way, no return. No guards, just let them fend for themselves and the biggest meanest one can be “king” there. LOL
If we can get a “convention” together, I think we would have to rent the astrodome and still might not have room enough for all who wanted to come!
The instant attraction is suspect, but not the defining symptom.
I met my husband and I knew,he knew- and we were basically together from when we met.