By | February 21, 2010 53 Comments

ASK DR. LEEDOM: What is dissociation?

A reader asked the following question this week:

Recently, I’ve started doing more research into sociopaths and have run into a condition with which I’m unfamiliar: dissociation. Do you know if sociopaths/psychopaths have been considered to have this disorder, or if it is part of what makes them who they are?

The term dissociation has two distinct meanings in psychology. These two uses of the same word do not necessarily reflect a similar process operating in each.

The first kind of dissociation is a response to stress, and peritraumatic dissociation (dissociation during a traumatic event) appears to be a risk factor for stress-related illness. Symptoms of this kind of dissociation include disturbed experience of reality related to time, memory and nearly every sensation. For example, during trauma, time may stand still and people report that things do not seem real. Male sex hormones or androgens (that women also have in lower levels) protect against this kind of dissociation. For a good but technical article about peritraumatic dissociation read, Symptoms of Dissociation in Humans Experiencing Acute, Uncontrollable Stress: A Prospective Investigation.

The second kind of dissociation relates to the observation that the mind is modular. That means we don’t use our entire brain circuitry all the time, and during different behavioral and emotional states, different circuits are activated. Testosterone is hypothesized to disrupt the connection between the cerebral cortex and the limbic system, and so enhances this kind of dissociation.

This increase in mind modularity has been related to sociopathy/psychopathy by some experts. In a previous blog I reviewed Psychopaths in Everyday Life, a book by Robert Rieber. There is a great quote from the book that relates to your question. It is,

The true psychopath compels the psychiatric observer to ask the perplexing and largely unanswered question: Why doesn’t that person have the common decency to go crazy?

So why don’t psychopaths have the common decency to go crazy? Dr. Rieber explains, “Since psychopaths act as if they were perfectly normal, i.e. sane, they must be skilled in a cunning manner to dissociate any real guilt that they should feel about their antisocial behavior.” He also says that since psychopaths dissociate, they don’t go crazy. He believes dissociation prevents them from experiencing guilt. He also says that many psychopaths do have some level of guilt they are dissociated from.

So there may be a connection between sociopathy/psychopathy and dissociation, but the connection depends on your definition of the word.

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interesting but we, (many of us with autism) disassociate and disconnect and pretty much we also depersonalize in our condition but we don’t or aren’t really selective about it, without proper instruction on how to manage things.

i can and have turned myself on and off. regress to a former period of myself. but i don’t think or feel it is in the same manner as they(socios) do. perhaps yes in a way i would say in some instances it appears that they do in the same way but for different reasons.

for myself and many like me emotions and feelings overall can be extremely overwhelming, and disrupt the process of our thinking. it contaminates our thinking. making what we can objectively think through unreliable through the virus of emotions seeping in, which at the time it can seem to be viruslike,

i love feeling but it does make reality less dependable as it tarneshing the thinking process into completely other shapes and forms. But ever since i have been actively expereinceing emotions, it has been necassary to shut that part off sometimes, slip into my autism state OR go insane.

there is a time to ‘feel’ things out but even then this should be in controlled doses or anxiety sets in and my OCD gets worse. And i can’t function.

to function properly i need to shut it off, and when to relate to those around me i “open that door” i never knew was there when i was a young child. At least now i have that option i didn’t have as a child.

But i wonder vaguely if they have a similar experience or if the way they dissassociate is completely different..


Ox Drover

I just finished reading the study reports, and found it very interesting. Lots of stuff to “chew on” in that report.

Also, makes me wonder if there are genetically determined chemical responses that vary widely in humans in response to stress so that some individuals are more “stress tolerant” than others. I know they have determined that pain tolerance is more or less genetically determined (as well as some cultural training or expectations) so I wonder if toleration to “stress” or “trauma” is also determned by our genes.

I’ve had two “life threatening” traumas, one a car wreck in which when I saw there was “no way I could survive” I “calmly” turned off my mind like turning off a TV, well before impact, and didn’t regain any memory of anything until well after the car stopped rolling and I found myself in the back seat (I was driving, in those days before seat belts). The other was the witnessing fire in the aircraft crash that burned my son and killed my husband. I didn’t “turn off”–but I realize I was in a dissoative state, tunnel vision, etc.

Though each of the “instant” traumas effected me, I sometimes wonder if the long-term roller coaster of the relationships with the psychopaths didn’t do me more “damage” mentally and physically than the two unexpected and traumatic “events.”

Making conscious efforts to decrease stress in my environment and life has been a limited success, because I don’t have control over some of the stressors, but I do believe it has helped decrease some of the physical and somantic complaints.

I remember the article you did on the “fat mice” experiment where the mice under stress (with controlled exercise and diet) gained weight “in the middle” more than the un-stressed mice. I have noticed that though I had been somewhat “overweight” as an adult after the birth of my kids, my “shape” always had a waist and was proportionate. Now, since the “great chaos” of the last couple of years, I have put weight on, but ONLY in the middle, and recently to the point I became uncomfortable because of the expansion of my “belly” to theh point I started to look like an apple, which has never been my shape.

I’ve been on a lower calorie diet for 3 or so weeks, and have taken off about 9 pounds, which seems to have all come off my waist, which now allows me to get back into the jeans I wore before gaining the most recent weight, and I again have a “wrinkle” where my waist used to be. (My son D laughed at me for crowing, “I’ve got a wrinkle around my middle”–and said he’d never seen a woman who was happy to have a WRINKLE!) LOL

On this blog we have frequently (more in the past) talked about the effects (both mental and physical) of the chemicals produced by our bodies in response to stress, and I imagine not only I, but many/most of us here have had high-stress lives for some extended period of time while engaged in interactions with the psychopaths (some of us more, some less, but all to some extent).

One of the things that has concerned me about my own situation is the short term memory problems that I have experienced. After the aircraft crash, they were so bad for several months that I could not read even a sentence as I couldn’t retain the thought from the first part of the sentence by the time I got to the last part. I couldn’t punch in a full telephone number into the dial, I had to do it by writing down the number, and crossing off the digits one at a time in order to keep up where I “was” in the sequence. I could watch a movie and watch the same movie the next day and not remember I had seen it.

Just being aware of the level of my disability in reading, thinking, remembering, was very very disturbing to me. I felt like a stroke patient must feel, or a head injured patient, (which I worked with for many years) and the word-finding difficulty I still experience from time to time (more verbally than in writing) is frustrating, though it has improved since the crash. However, most of the time since the crash I have continued to be in high stress situations as well due to the P-chaos.

While experiencing these things was very worried me a great deal (made me wonder if I was losing my mind) I asked my therapist to administer an IQ test, which he did, and I scored 1 point higher than I ever had. (Which, BTW suprised him I think, as I think my verbal functioning was not up to the score I made on the test.) It was at least, if nothing else, though, REASSURING to me that I wasn’t “losing my mind.”

The gaslighting that many of us have experienced while dealing with the psychopaths, I think, also, makes us have anxiety about our own “reality testing”—and I know it sure did with me!

In a way, just knowing that the things I experienced in the way of dissociative symptoms and PTSD doesn’t make me “crazy” or out of touch with reality, and that I am not a “nut job” does seem to reassure me at least. My psychiatrist kept reassuring me that it would “get better” but I had trouble believing her. She was right though, it has gotten better, and I have over all gotten better, and am taking better care of myself with as much attention as I can give to decreasing stress.

Keeping away from “distressing” people, NC, and working on a better diet, more exercise, and stopping “bad habits” (like smoking) does help. Thanks, Dr. Leedom for this great article and the link to the study. I appreciate all that you contribute here!


‘The true psychopath compels the psychiatric observer to ask the perplexing and largely unanswered question: Why doesn’t that person have the common decency to go crazy?’

HOT DAMN! LIKE THIS! yes, WHY DOESN’T THE @#$%^&*(*&^%$##$5678U7Y%$$%^&*(&^%$$%

But seriously, if there is some guilt present – perhaps treatment lays in connecting them with it.

i can’t believe i just said that. i hate it when guilt is used against people.

but then, my desire is that these creatures become ‘citizens’ in some way, not just low flying vampires. and it isn’t my concern for their internal lives; i am not there yet. I’d just like some way of stopping their destruction that doesn’t involve me going to prison.

i wonder if my hick library has this book. really like to read it.


geez, Oxy you just described the autistic experience, except many of us start out and remain like that nearly 24/7, from toddlerhood on up. (I don’t much remember infancy).

emergence out of autism is when we aren’t experiencing those symptoms on a constant, but have times when we are expereinceing the world somewhat nearly normally. but the tunnel vision, yep that was basically the first eight years of my life then afterwards some times when the world seemed more assessable when many of us pushed ourselves more into it, fighting our symptoms all the way.

i have at least four to five hours a day of being on full autism mode. the times that i’m pushing myself out of autism to relate and interact with the world around me takes alot of energy and effort to do so. when i get home i have the comfort of losing myself, losing speech, and withdrawing into myself with my autistic family doing the same. you can see us some afternoons looking like three drowling zombies. he he..

Des says there is a little autism in everyone, or a time when every person experiences the autism state of mind.

Stress and anxiety is part of the everyday of autism. even when nothing seems to cause it. We belong to ABMD group.
that’s the autism bio medical discussion group through our integrative DAN! (defeat autism now) doctor. there are ways to take certain supplements to take after a full metabolic analysis is done to even out or tamper down symptoms of anxiety, stress, and brain fuzz. and
article on integrative medicine

now they have also assisted in lessening the symptoms of various issues of ADHD, mitochondrial dysfunction issues, bipolar and schizophrenia, and folks with PTSD as well as other anxiety disorders, not just autism. a metabolic analysis can sort through how the chemicals are running through you and how supplementation and elimination can help.

Being in a autistic state can be disorienting but if you stick around there long enough it can be comfortable almost and some insight and creative ways to navigate through it and other things can be useful in the everyday world.


Ox Drover

Thanks, MIke, that was interesting to get a glimpse of how you see the world some of the time at least.

Since my early days in physiological chemistry, studying the effects of stress (even back then in the old days they knew some of the things) dissociation symptoms (the tunnel vision) etc. were known to be caused by extreme threats/stress.

In my studies and observation of animals what are prey animals some of the things some of them do and what WE do when we are under immediate attack are pretty much the SAME thing. (of course they can’t tell us if they have tunnel vision, but I bet they do!) The experiences I had as I saw the crash site, the fire, my husband on the ground, and could lNOT see jmy son and the two other victims though my son says I iwas within 3 feet of him and “looking right at me” shows I definitely had tunnel visiion, and though I was Having thoughts about “what to do” (I am a traiined medical professional with a great deal of trauma care experience in “the wild” through 13 years as a medical responder with the fire rural department, and always kept my “cool” under “fire” but this time, with it being my family, my friends, I didn’t keep my “cool” at all. I was trying to function, but was not able to focus or prioritize tasks.

The time with the car wreck, I knew there was “nothing I could do” I was preg, and I thought very quietly “I’m sorry the baby is going to die with me.” Then “turned off the TV” and everything went black until probably a minute or more completely after the crash. I didn’t even FEEL scared or afraid, or anything except that sadness that my baby would die and calm.

In species of prey animals that are held closely in a situation that they are not able to move, they “self pacify” and quit struggling. Temple Grandlin’s “squeeze chutes” designed to calm animals while they are medicated etc. uses this self calming action to keep the animal from struggling and harming themselves and/or their handlers. I think I was emotionally squeezed in the car by the fact I “couldn’t get out of this” and I didn’t want to “see it” so I turned my mind off so I wouldn’t have to. Actually that would be a very “self pacifying” way for facing death. I don’t want to die, but one thing that car crash did “teach” me is that I am not AFRAID of death itself any longer.

The FEAR of anything can make us react, and it doesnn’t even have to be present to make us fear it, we can imagine it being there and get the same result in stress.

I made a conscious decision not to live in TERROR (continual fear) of my P son sending someone else out to kill me, and it has I thinkk made a big difference in my hypervigilence and the fear itself stalking me. I just finished a book about the fears we as a nation developled after 9/11, it is written by the same guy who did “The Gift of Fear” and it is an EXCELLENT book on how not to WORRY about things, but to BE AWARE of your gut instincts and listen to them, and how to determine if you are worrying, (which you can stop because it isn’t productive) or if you are assessing a real threat.

I think many of us, especially those that developed PTSD after the psychopathic Chaos have more worry than we do fear, we become paranoid. I know that was my case any way, and I think many others here have experessed the same problems on this front.

The feelings of not being able to keep ourselves safe from every conceivable attack, like after 9/11 happened, or knowing that the world is actually dangerous, or not knowing what the Ps are out there plotting, can make us worry the rest of our lives away in paranoia. We can reject that line of thinking, but first we must realize we are thinking like that, and take action to quell that line of thinking.

If you haven’t read the research article Dr. Leedom linked to on this subject, I suggest that you read it, it really has some good information in it.

Boy, wouldn’t you love to be around in 100 years when they have all these things worked out and have medications for most or all of them? It has not been very many decades when cages and chains were the only opltions for treatiing lots of mental illnesses that can be successfully treated with medications now. Wonder what those physicians and people would think now at the miracles we have compared to what they had?


it’s great,

the abnormal reality of way too many autistics daily.
we have that overblown sense of fight or flight instinct constantly.

i remember being in this barbeque with some veterens, they were just as jumpy as we were. someone had the great idea of doing fireworks. Des as well as another couple of soldiers turned dead white and tossed themselves on the floor.

one guy after trying to pull himself together breathing heavy looked over at Des hiding under a table and asked where and when did she serve. i told him she didn’t, that she’s autistic. he looked at me and said “you mean she was always like this?” i answered yes. “G-d help her.” he answered. “i had a different life before this. We weren’t always like this. but this is how she always was? how can she bear it?” I shrugged and said we just get used to it is all.

he said you don’t get used to this. and i told him when you’re autistic, you’ve no choice really.

right now i’m home getting the new nurse accustomed to Des and the dolphin. Des can ‘read’ a nervous nurse and it ignites her warines. with Des that fight or flight instinct can be scary because she fights more than takes flight. She’s like a cornered animal really these days, not that she’ll do anything but i have to worry abouts these things.

some guy is coming over to talk about autistics and remote viewing which i wonder if it’s to help us turn that aspect off or if he wants us to perform like a carnival show, if that’s the case we have absolutely no control over this so he shouldn’t bother… But i’ll hear him out anyway.




You crack me up, even when you’re as mad as a hornet!

I get what you are saying, though, that it would be wonderful to find a way to help p’s connect to themselves. To rid the world of their harm. I am with you.

It is not so much my care for them as individuals (though I can say I do have some of that). More it is out of concern for a civil world, that has a better chance of survival and improvement.


I am not one who posts long and frequently. But I wanted to say that I am really glad you are here. You have added a level of insight and ‘richness’ to LF, as well as Des. I am glad you are both here.


slim – i wonder how diff the world would look if they all just…died?


one step

The low flying vampires would rather die than connect with their guilt. It was the one emotion (if you can call guilt an emotion, more like an excuse for an emotion) I detected in the P but it was a very frustrating hovering thing…. So failing a forced connection like a plug in a socket… get the garlic out, fast….

Ox Drover

Mike, is that “remote viewing,” as in ESP?


bulletproof – i wonder what would happen to the various power girds world wide if we ‘plugged them in’ all at once?

I watched the move, wonderful world, with mathew broderick the other day. there was this amazing exchange between his character and a self entitled SUV driver. his timing was awesome when he delivered this speech – all the while trying to squeeze into his car, which was jammed up against a wall (and having been berated by the SV driver for parking in a way that made it hard for the SUV driver to manouveur – although m.b. was parked somewhat illegally, the amount of ‘space’ he took up was half the ‘space’ the SUV driver did):

“You know what you are? You’re a vampire. You think you are new to the earth, but you’re not, you’ve been around like for 10,000 years. You’re in the bible. You’re indestructible. You’re like an insect, and when the nuclear holocaust comes there will be swarms of you Driving around in your SUVs informing on each other.”

He was so certain and angry. And although he was parking illegally ”“ he was right ”“ he saw deeper.


we don’t like to call it that. it’s more like being connected through soul singing with another and seeing what they are seeing. feeling what they are feeling, merging with them. our form of non verbal communication.

like my wanting a cup of coffee and des bringing me a cup. it’s like being at work and my linking up to des and dolphin to see if they are okay. i drift away and i am then with them then i’m back again. they too with me.

Sometimes i’m at work and i get a warmth and i know des and dolphin are visiting. if it feels like a little giggle it’s my dolphin, if it’s intense and i get edgey and my sense of smell sharpens i know it’s Des.

I calm Des down this way too. if it seems like she’s about to lose it, i intervene. i step into her and whisper in her head calm down, cool it. we become like one unit, then we separate until another time we can pull into each other again.

we’ve done this many times. drift away and merge with others.

souls have no boundaries, no time or space to get in between. dolphin and des and i all do this. with other autistics too, we’ve been able to with folks with down syndrome too. sometimes with what des calls sensitive everyday people too. like some folks here.

people sometimes get caught up on that things only exist only if they can be seen or measured. but then in that case thoughts and feelings which can not be seen or measured must not exist. but whatever exists can be sensed. doesn’t mean we can make sense out of what we’re sensing. nothing is a clear as it is in hollywood movies.

the guy wanted us to help with missing people. he even had clothing articles for Des to sniff through. this is too much for us to sort through. and we can’t make sense of what we are seeing/feeling. we can’t help him.

we can not control what comes in or not. and even through all our suppossed ‘gifts’ we couldn’t save Odalina. We couldn’t sort through the information and we couldn’t save her. Des screamed as if it were she who was being stabbed, but she couldn’t save her, just writhed and collapsed on the ground living through what O was going through. we can’t save anybody. we’re useless.



this link belong’s to an autistic called Delvyn:

In visionaire messages it describes alot of how des and i (and dolphin still does) experienced and how we saw things.

this other was written by Tito another autistic which i am adding here because we as well had that message of being a Tree of Mind..

The Mind Tree

Maybe it is night
Maybe it is day
I can’t be sure
Because I’m not yet feeling the heat of the sun
I am the mind tree
When I had been gifted this mind of mine
I recall his voice very clearly
To you I have given this mind
And you shall be the only kind
No one ever will like you be
And I name you the mind tree
I can’t see or talk
Yet I can imagine
I can hope and I can expect
I am able to feel pain but I cannot cry
So I just be and wait for the pain to subside
I can do nothing but wait
My concerns and worries
Are trapped within me somewhere in my depths
Maybe in my roots
Maybe in my bark
When he comes next who gifted me my mind
I shall ask him for the gift of sight
I doubt his return and
Yet hope for it
Maybe he will
Maybe he will not

Tito Mukhopadhyay

Ox Drover

Thanks, Mike for explaining….but you are NOT “useless.”





Dearest CA Mom,I am so sorry, you have been thru absolute hell on earth, first with that sick fucker of father, and then with the cruel spaths in your life,{obviously it was your unconscious trying to re-create the trauma from your childhood, and this time, try to “get it right.}’What was your Mum doing when all this mental abuse and torture was going on? Did she know about it? Is your father dead now? I hope if so, that he is in the worst pit of Hell, for what he put you thru as a defenceless child. Im sending you love, peace, and White light. May the Archangels Raphael, Michael and Hameil protect you and keep you safe.Im so SORRY you had to live thru this.
Love, and {{HUGS!}}}, Gem.XXX
Jesus said,
“If any of you cause any of these little ones to suffer,[children,} ,it would be better for him if a millstone was placed around his neck, and he drowned in the depths of the sea.”
God is not mocked, your sick bastard of a Dad WILL suffer for what he did to you, either in this world, or in Hell, where he belongs.

Quantum Solace

This article explains how they P/Spaths can sleep so soundly at night in spite the horrors they’ve committed during the day. Makes perfect sense!


This reminds me of the film “The Informant” with Matt Damon, about Archer Daniels Midland executive Mark Whitacre, who led the FBI on a wild goose chase about his company’s corruption, only to lead them to his own crimes.

They keep saying he’s bipolar, but he’s clearly a sociopath. He “doesn’t have the common decency to go crazy.” Instead, bipolar disorder causes him to steal, and he covers up his guilt with sociopathy — acting like the good guy, helping the FBI go after the bad guys. He even gives them a picture of his family, to show what a great “family man” he is. Classic dissociation.


Interesting. The person I know that I suspect of being a sociopath has been described as a ‘Pollyanna’ in that things that would typically devastate the average person, those things have little or no affect on this person.

kim frederick

Zen, not only do they lack a conscience, they don’t experience fear and anxiety the way the rest of us do…and from what I understand this is a very real physiological difference in their brains. That being said, I believe they always have an ulterior plan and motive up their sleaves, so that when the bottom drops out, as it surely will, they needn’t stress at all, because they’ve very carefully planned an out…
They know damn well they’re using us up, and at some point the s#$t will hit the fan, but by the time it does they’re already gone.
Nothing phazed my X. No fear no anxiety. I used to comment about it and he’d laugh, saying that He’d been told that all his life. He was very proud of it. He didn’t fear eviction, arrest, being w/o electricity, being hungry simply because he had a plan. He’d leave me in the dust, reeling, dealing with the wreckage, but for him…no stress at all.
When I’d recover, get back on my feet, well…look who’d reappear. Oh, Lord I feel a rant coming on….



kim, That does make sense. To the casual observer one would think she was an optimist but it is strange how removed she is. Well not exactly removed as she will depict herself to the person she’s exploiting as very upset but to me she acts as if she has not a care in the world.

One question, are there any physical mannerisms that are exhibited in these people? I am not of course sure this person is a sociopath but based on behavior that is what it seems to be. In doing searches online to understand what was going on I found this site.

kim frederick

Well Zen I would see a very real red flag if she is acting one way in some situations and another in others…this is a display of disception, or at least hipocracy. One cliche you may be interested in is: those involved with psychopaths either end up as victims or accompices….Be careful that she’s not pulling you into her scheams. I would worry that she shows you the unconcerned part of herself. Do you feel that she sees you as a kindred spirit in the situation, and so can reveal her true colors to you?
Be very careful. Stay true to your convictions. Do not trust tis person. Only my perceptions.

Thank you, Liane, for bringing up this topic. I think it’s really relevant to sociopaths and to us, who have been involved with them. I’ve been digging into it for the last few months, because I’m interested in sorting out some of my residual issues that are a lot like what other people here have been describing as being stuck.

I’m reading a book now, called “Haunted Self: Structural Dissociation and the Treatment of Chronic Traumatization.” It’s written for professionals, and is a little academic, but it provides some very good basic insights into how dissociation works. (I’m also learning to spell it “dissociation,” rather than disassociation, because that’s apparently the right way.)

In my own healing work, I knew I that I had a fractured psyche as a result of my incest background. When that began, I both dissociated from the experience (leaving my body when it happened) and also made conscious decisions to compartmentalize the memories and the emotional reactions, because I wanted to have a “normal” life. What I didn’t understand at the time was that, by doing that, I was essentially burying a part of myself. Or rather making it unacceptable to my “daylight” self.

This compartmentalization had started earlier in my life. Because I was very young when I learned that it was a punishable offense to have my own opinions, desires, plans, etc., and that my survival in that household depended on me being cooperative and acquiescent, and certainly never expressing anger, there were whole chunks of my emotional spectrum that were not directly expressed. (I say directly, because I could not get angry at the source of my anger, but like everyone else in my family, I diffused my anger through sarcasm and sabotage toward the world at large, as well as myself.)

And as an adult, my external personality reflected all that training, while there were significant other parts of me that were not exhibited to anyone else in the world. Most people saw me as insecure. They didn’t know that I was boiling internally with resentments, and constantly struggling with internal conflicts between what I “should” do or be and ideas I had about doing the “unthinkable.”

My relationship with the sociopath provided the benefit for me of really illuminating these issues. There was a part of me that wanted him, and didn’t care what it cost me. I’ve never been in such a battle in my life, as I experienced with him. The sensible daylight me went into the blackest despair as I lost one thing after another — money, self-esteem, feelings of control over my life — while this other part that saw him as the answer to everything would not let go of me. I couldn’t repress it, shut it up, talk it out it, or stop it from doing everything in its power to make him love me.

A lot of this healing path, for me, has been to recover the lost parts of me. Especially the capacity to feel and express anger, so that I could begin to express and then develop a life that was about what I wanted, rather than what everyone else expected from me.

So that is a relatively straightforward expression of dissociation — a picture of separated parts of me, caused by reaction to trauma, that didn’t die, but took on compartmentalized lives that didn’t interact very well. And getting better was recovering them and getting them to work together again.

As far as sociopaths go, the emotional background of their pathology is — according to my theories, which are backed up by a lot of other social research and other people’s similar theories — is that they split off and compartmentalize other capabilities. I mentioned in an earlier post about Temple Grandin’s identification of panic as a primary emotion that is related to the withdrawal of a key resource. I think this is relevant to the development of the sociopathic disorder.

My best example is my ex’s story. He was born to a single mother who gave him up for adoption, when he was old enough that he still has a single memory of her face. He was an early toddler, probably about a year old, and he spent a year in an orphanage before he was adopted. In terms of child development, this is a disastrous scenario, enforced separation from “the source” before the child has naturally moved through through the process with his mother. And it was made worse by the institutional conditions, where attention was sporadic and not particularly nurturing.

The result is what could be called “affective disorder,” a common condition among adopted children, in which they cannot bond with the new family and develop symptoms of anti-social tendencies. Which is why I’ve called sociopathy an affective disorder in my writings here. But more to the point, what happened is a reaction to panic, in Temple Grandin’s terms. In M.L. Gallagher’s recent post about “Dancing in the Arms of Love,” she talks about waiting and waiting for the person who will be everything. This is an exact replica of the experience of this child. (And sociopaths do replicate their essential dramas with us, as we replicate our essential dramas with them.)

So what is the child’s reaction when the source never comes? Or comes infrequently, and not in direct response to its needs?

Small children are survival machines. All of us are, but they are undeveloped emotionally and intellectually, so they don’t have a lot of resources, beyond this will to survive. And I believe that in order to survive this situation, they compartmentalize the expectations, the disappointment, the fear and pain, and they start making do, depending on themselves and becoming emotionally independent at an age where they have to literally do violence to their nature to do it. They no longer trust in any kind of safety, reliability or spiritual value in human interaction. Their dealings with people become defined by whether they do or do not get what they need or want, rather than mutual caring and support.

There is a lot of good information about treatment of affective disorder in adoptive children. Sometimes intervention can help. Sometimes the pattern is set too firmly, and there is just no way to break through. Because the loss of trust is a kind of death knell for normal human interactivity. It’s a wall that is impenetrable.

In terms of disassociation, the child that existed before this happened still exists, but in a compartmentalized state. Which is why sociopaths can be so tragic (and so good at the pity ploy). The new “shell” of complete emotional self-sufficiency is a part of self that is completely separated from the needy, emotionally or physically abandoned child that has been compartmentalized as weak, helpless, inadequate, a source of pain, and in identity terms, unworthy of love or nurture. The sociopathic shell is a defense against that reality, and is imbued by an essential feeling of being angry, ripped off and determined be paid back by the world. But the buried child often bleeds through, and we see it in their neediness for acceptance, for love (even though the shell doesn’t believe in it), and the grievous stories they tell and believe. This is also why we are so often astonished at the childishness of their “best” impulses. Their social capacities are literally stalled at the age of the psychic separation. Although they may learn intellectually what they should feel (and mime it to get along socially), what they really feel is a combination of the angry shell and the starving child.

And just in case, this makes anyone imagine that they can help them, you can’t. There are cases of narcissists being treated, if they are willing to experiment with living “as if” trust was safe. But that is rare. The damage these people do is what we live with. But what they live with is the effect of the inability to trust. Nothing can get through that. And they are condemned to this split life of the undeveloping child and the angry, predatory shell.

My ex’s story is a textbook case. However there is a great deal of research indicating that the failure of nurture or the failure of emotional security can have the same effect at later ages. A huge study was done in England — I believe it was almost 100 years ago — looking at the impact on children of domestic violence in the home, as well as poverty conditions and other major disruptions to their sense of safety or ability to depend on their parents. The emergence of anti-social tendencies was statistically very significant. And again, I think that Grandin’s concept of panic is a really good way of looking at this particular issue. Children will endure it to a point, and then they “switch over” to a coping mechanism that may be hard to reverse.

Why some people will go to the codependent strategy and other’s will go to the anti-social strategy is a function, I think, of several issues. One is the developmental stage at which the stresses occur. Another is the requirements presented by the environment (such as an environment where any independence is heavily punished). Another may be whether or not strong supportive or nurturing influences exist outside the home. For example, I had one grandmother who I now credit with saving my life, in psychological terms, and later some teachers who recognized that I was in trouble and took the time to talk with me and encourage me. They didn’t save me from developing as a really self-destructive codependent, but their influence helped me maintain some kind of belief in myself through all my craziness.

So this is a very long post, and a lot of theorizing about personality structure. Having separate and relatively independent personality “modules” is perfectly normal. Simply being socialized to navigate the communal world involves us learning to control some parts of ourself, often through feelings of guilt or shame, and those parts continue to exist and have their say in our psyches. And as I’ve been talking about here, they also have their purposes. Our “inner sociopaths” are really sets of capacities that may be more or less “acceptable” to us, as perhaps too-well-trained social beings. Ideally, as we mature, we recognize what they’re good for, rather than simply denying them, and integrate them into our personalities.

The fact that I responded to a sociopath, in terms of having a long term relationship with someone who had such a dramatically broken psyche of two major personality modules, was directly related, I think, to the fact that I was similarly broken. Just in reverse. On the surface, he was everything I was not and vice versa. But in the background, the same was also true. His dark secret was the the tragic baby, Mine was the furiously angry, impulsive, demanding and self-interested self that mostly bled through in addictive behaviors, because my “outside” self wouldn’t allow it to emerge otherwise.

I hope that some of this makes sense.


super chic

CAmom (((((hug)))))
I am so glad you are here at this site.
I am so sorry you had to go through any of this,
as a little girl, as an adult.
Your father is such a sick SOB,
he set you up to be with an S, you didn’t know anything else.
You are amazing to be able to write about it now.
You said your therapists said you would not be able to recover
all your memories, to me, that might be a good thing,
how do you feel about that?

I should probably add here that this whole theory doesn’t mention the impact of genetics. My personal belief about this is that genetics provide certain temperamental characteristics, or types of nervous system capacities or neurological structures, that naturally support certain psychic capacities.

I’ve mentioned my own family in relationship to this. There is a trend in my father’s side of the family toward aggressive, competitive, independent and emotionally high-strung types. It’s hard for me to know how much of this is genetic and how much of it is the result of growing up in the family. But when these people “switch over,” they become much more like the N/P/S spectrum than codependents in their dealing with people, though they would describe themselves as victims. (Sound familiar?)

However, in better circumstances, they are highly intelligent, highly focussed, social leaders, would have been excellent hunters in hunter-gatherer times, and are extremely competent at a variety of things. They also have been diagnosed variously as ADHD, OCD, and most recently, Aspergers.

I think that all of us who have been involved with sociopaths have been particularly struck by their huge potential, that has been warped by their disorder. I understand that not all sociopaths are intelligent, but I personally have never met one that wasn’t striking in his or her alertness to the environment, ability to manufacture some kind of plan even in the most unpromising circumstances, and ability to focus on their objectives.

I know that a lot of us are dealing with children with anti-social behaviors. And I don’t mean to make any of this the fault of the parents. It may be that some children have the cards stacked against them in genetic terms, and it takes very little for them to switch over. Or it may be that simply growing up in certain types of environments (like my family) puts them in the way of certain types of stresses, no matter what we do to try to protect them.

One thing I have come to think from my own healing process and the studying I’ve done is that we overestimate the resiliency of children. Yes, they cope, because they are survival machines. But the accumulation of stresses has its effect. Which is why I am so convinced that one of the prime responsibilities of parenting is to provide an emotionally safe atmosphere and as much supportive influence as we can gather around. No parent should be alone in trying to support the emotional health of a child. It’s too much to ask. And if I could do my own period of motherhood over again, I would have worked harder to surround my son with supportive influences.


Kathy, it makes a lot of sense, and I believe it is what I am starting to experience–trying to mend the pieces. The difference is that I also have a genuinely caring side as well, that I credit to the years of work I’ve already done. But I notice when I’m with my therapist, a part of me wants to cooperate and “trust” her, while another part just wants to get angry at her. One day I was just pissed off at her for no reason. Everything she said just pissed me off. Fortunately, it’s okay to be that way in there. It felt really good to just be myself because I can’t really do that anywhere else. She says it’s because I’m afraid to go back to some of those old memories. I say I AM doing what I need to do when I get angry. I don’t know which one of us is right. I mean, I’m the one in charge of my own body, right? But she’s the one I’ve entrusted to lead the way. I wonder if I’ll always have one foot out the door with every therapist, wondering if they know what they’re doing.

Then I remember reading some literature years ago about energy work and borderline personalities. It said that a borderline personality can be healed in 3 months, rather than many years, by simply breathing and bringing the energy up to the heart and breathing it out. So I go home and I work with this. I breathe and start to feel all of this anger and fear and pain to see what happens to it. Sometimes it really does shift and change and I don’t feel as angry. When that happens, I ask myself if I should trust this wonderful therapist who genuinely seems to care about me, or if I should trust the years of meditation and energy work I’ve done and just breathe out all of this anger and pain. I honestly don’t know the answer. The selfish part just wants to rage at the therapist. The caring part wants the therapist to feel like I am a safe person for her to be around because I genuinely care about her. Is it co-dependent to place another person’s needs as equal to my own? And of course these are the “perceived” needs. In reality, she’s probably waiting for me to get really angry at her. I think she knows deep down I’m really enraged at my mother. And she’s probably right. But is it necessary to rage at her?

I really feel like I’m in the midst of this huge identity crisis. I honestly don’t know who I am, and I feel like I’m making it up as I go along.

Kathy, if you think you weren’t making sense, I imagine I must sound completely nuts!

Star, I read your post on the other thread, and now this one. I have a thought, for what it’s worth.

In a therapeutic relationship, the therapist expects us to project our stuff on them. And more than that, the therapist inevitably becomes a kind of parental figure. That’s what a guide is, in broad terms. They are facilitating us through some developmental processes that we didn’t get done in our early years, or that we didn’t get done in the wake of some later trauma.

So this is not a normal relationship. You are paying her to help you. The fact that you don’t trust her is something that she is going to take into account as a part of your projection on her. And is probably going to assume that you have trust issues with parental or authority figures. I would if I were her.

But that is just a symptom. If you have trust issues, there’s a reason for that. And that is what she’s trying to help you uncover.

If you have BPD, I have a theory about that too, if you want to hear it. I think that BPDs have experienced a similar experience to one I described above with my ex. A severe lack of nurture, but either at a developmental time or in an environment that didn’t completely destroy their ability to believe in the potential for human interactions to meet their needs. Rather they go off in the other direction, and maintain an idea of the perfect relationship in which all their needs are met. I call it their “emotional home,” because it is a kind of ultimate psychic shelter. And then their intimate relationships become huge dramas reflecting whether the relationship is or is not performing as that perfect shelter.

A former lover is a recovering BPD, diagnosed after we broke up. When I found out and begin to study BPD, it made a lot of sense of what we went through. This is pretty fundamental stuff, deep-seated and old, but you can work through it. However, my understanding of it is that, at least in the early stages, the most effective work is more in the line of cognitive behavioral training. That is, understanding that you have choices about where you go emotionally and learning how to change your self-talk. That might make sense of your dream.

There are identity issues. Certainly the question of whether you deserve to be loved for yourself. And if you’re in a big identity crisis right now, that’s probably a good thing. Because if you’re anything like my friend, you’ve probably identified yourself by your relationships and been working way too hard at taking care of everyone else in order to earn your perfect shelter. And if you’re beginning to re-think that life strategy, you may be wondering what you have left. Like how are you supposed to behave now, if you’re not “doing everything.” And what a good relationship might look like.

Well, one thing is that a good relationship is one that allows you to express your feelings, including getting mad. And if you get mad with your therapist, maybe you two can work together on doing anger more effectively. And also if you let this out, you may also find out that what’s behind the anger is a real need to be recognized as a valuable person, without you have to do a big song and dance to keep everyone else happy. And she could help you explore that.

BPDs, in my knowledge, have a terrible fear of abandonment that permeates everything. And not a very secure sense of their ability to be their own source of acknowledgement and appreciation. So she can help you with all that too.

I know what a smart and commited person you are, as well as compassionate and kind. I also can see in your writing how far you’ve come from when I first saw you writing here. You don’t sound nuts at all. You sound like you’re on the path, and feeling your way along. I’m really glad you have a therapist. And though she’s stimulating feelings in you, I also have a feeling that you trust her more than you know. Or at least feel reasonably comfortable about continuing the relationship. Even though you’re not perfectly controlled with her, and she’s not doing everything you want her to do to make you comfortable.

All that sounds pretty good to me.






CA Mom, Your most welcome darling girl! I will keep on sending you white light and keep you in my prayers. I was lucky, my dad was distant,but he never sexually ,or physically or mentally abused me. He wasnt a hugger, but that generation werent. It wasnt till 1992, after my Mums death t 82, that I realised it had been SHE who kept me from getting close to my Dad. She married a father figure, and therefore I wasnt allowe to get close to HER ‘Daddy”.Sh e used to nag him constantly, and put him down. He never ever retaliated, but his silence only made her worse.I was sort of able to re-connect with him whem he was old. I am thankful, though, that he wasnt an abuser, and I now know he DID love me very much, but didnt show it.
I cant imagine how frightened you must have been. They are SICk SICK morons.You will probably find that HIS Dad treated him the same way,-“the sins of the Fathers—-Comfort that scared little girl, and place her in your Heart. You will have to re-parent her yourself! I know you can do it! Love, and Peace, Honey!!!Mama Gem.XX”

CA Mom, I think God, or your unconscious, or your spirit, is trying to protect you by not revealing bad memories. I wouldnt go there. You maybe couldnt handle the memories.A bit like ripping up a rosebud, to try to get to the heart, and you kill the flower. Let it unfold in its own time, and its own pace.PEACE. Love, Gem.XX


When I was in my 20’s I was diagnosed twice with BPD. But years later with other therapists, I was told that I was definitely not, and that it’s damaging for me to think I am. Can you see why I’m so confused and why I never know which therapists to trust? In my younger days, I acted out abandonment issues in a very pronounced way with all my boyfriends. I seem to have outgrown a lot of it now, but still battle with trust issues. I’m especially dealing with a few people at work that trigger my fight-or-flight response, which makes it hard to relax at work sometimes. I have enough cognitive skills to at least function well and be cheery and responsive there, but my guard is always up. Just like when I was a stripper, my guard was always up. Some people are just blatantly more trustworthy than others. Secretaries are notoriously catty and backstabbing. Sometimes working with them feels like navigating through a mine field. I also have a young supervisor who does not deal with people very well and gets defensive when challenged. I have to challenge her on something today, and I’m not looking forward to it. I would give anything to walk out on that job. Dealing with all the other personalities can be fun, but lately, it just seems to drain my energy. Speaking of… to work. I will try to check in later.


“Well Zen Do you feel that she sees you as a kindred spirit in the situation, and so can reveal her true colors to you?
Be very careful. Stay true to your convictions. Do not trust tis person. Only my perceptions.”

Kim I have cut off all contact with this person. And you’re right, looking back she attempted to use me. She is my b/f’s ex and consistently plays the ‘damsel in distress’. She totally exploits him and tried the same with me. She tried to say I was the ‘sister she never had’ and he was like ‘her brother’. On the surface she seems the sweetest thing but I began to see her manipulating us, playing us against one another. The problem is he doesn’t see it, he’s very kind and very empathetic and doesn’t believe she’s the fraud that she is.


I do have a couple of questions if someone would be so kind as to answer these:

1) Are there any physical manifestations of sociopath behavior i.e. mannerisms?

2) Is it common for sociopaths to ‘forget’ things repeatedly such as losing an item and cause everyone to drop everything to find the item/s OR purposefully leave items in someone’s car or home ?


kim frederick

Zen, I can’t think of any physical mannerisms off hand, but leaving items in your home or car could be a psychopaths ticket back in. I’m sure normal people sometimes forget things, too though.



I would say a big YES to queston #2.
I have seen that in a female psychopath, too.
I am not sure if it is intentional or not, but “forgetfulness” and leaving things at home or in the car is common in my brother’s wife, as well.
Of course, it upsets the situation and causes unnecessary stress, because someone always has to run back and get whatever was forgotten.
The more I think about it, most of it is probably done intentionally.
Or, they are too busy plotting their scams that they forget what is right in front of them.

To question #1, I have noticed that their eyes move very quickly when they don’t think anyone is looking at them.
They will scan a person up and down, from head to toe very quickly. They will also notice if you have something “new” in your house, I think because they keep close tabs on other people’s possessions…..things they may want to get their hands on in the future. Very observant individuals….they notice the tiniest things.

There is also something machine-like about the female psychopath I know. For example, every summer, she will stand in the kitchen for 3 days straight making homemade salsa using tomatoes from her garden out in the backyard….a garden my brother said “NO” to, because he did not want the yard dug up. Of course, she just went full speed ahead on the garden, completely oblivious to my brother’s objection. Anyway, she’ll stand in the kitchen for 3 days straight making this homemade salsa, when she already has a closet full of home made salsa from the previous year.
Maybe she’s planning for the day when the big bomb drops, I don’t know.

And then there was the phase about 4 years ago, when she spent all of her time in the basement painting these snowman figurines that she saw someone else selling at a Christmas market. She decided she could do that as well, and she spent all of her time for about 4 months straight painting these snowman figurines in the basement…..and they all look alike!!!!! So much for creativity. She tried to sell them, and they never sold.
So, now the basement is full of about 100 snowman figurines, all with the same face and enough homemade salsa to feed the homeless.
That’s what I mean when I say there is a “machine-like” quality.


kim & Rosa

thanks for your responses. The reason I asked re the physical manifestations, is that when this person looks at you she has the blankest look on her face. Not all the time cause she will laugh and smile at times but mostly there is this rather emotionless look on her face.

Regarding forgetting things. It’s not as if it’s occasional, it is constant! Things that she has forgotten over and over again, like her cell phone, her purse, her wallet, on and on. Making everyone drop everything or turning around the car to go back to locate the item/s. Another thing she does is leave items as I said and I think it’s purposeful. Once I was helping her move some thing OUT of my home and had the trunk of my car loaded. She removed the items and when I got home there were two small boxes still in my car. There is NO way she could’ve overlooked them.

It’s so strange.


“They will also notice if you have something “new” in your house, I think because they keep close tabs on other people’s possessions”..things they may want to get their hands on in the future. Very observant individuals”.they notice the tiniest things.”

Rosa rereading your comment, it’s weird but she does the same thing, notices every detail even the tiniest and makes mention of it.

I’ve never know of her stealing or showing any anger or hostility. She’s a very bizarre person and extremely manipulative.

Something just didn’t ring true about this person. I thought it was jealousy or resentment or something but when another person noticed these things as well I saw that I wasn’t being hypercritical. I have her out of my life now, well sort of.


What always struck me as odd was that nearly everything in his place was a gift, or a “given ” to him in some form or another.

When he worked for furniture company – the owner gave him an expensive leather couch.

When he helped move a friend – he gave him one of his TVs – the biggest one on the market!

When one of his friends gf was moving – he came home with an antique dresser/drawer.

Every damn time I complimented something he was wearing – it was always ” thanks it came from this ex or that ex” scarves, gloves, tee shirts, etc..

The very last time I ever saw him, he said look at the watch I got, my boss gave it to me.

Even places he travelled were always because a friend invited him (company retreat – all expenses paid – all he had to do was show up )

He often offered to do odd jobs for friends and ultimately would get key to their homes – one was at the beach (his friend travels for work so he spent one summer going there every weekend )

They seem to have a knack for getting people to adore them, and think of them as someone who could use this or that — or are always people take them under their wing or they will be like ” by the way do you need that chair in youre storing in the garage — or ALWAYS getting someone to give them something or selling something on craigslist.

All of these things we may have experienced in our lives,but it was CONSTANT with him, he seemed to live/survive on others kindness…cant explain it…its done in such a way that they look innocent in the whole transaction but really they banked on alot of it happening anyway….

Ox Drover


My X-son-P used to tell me someone “gave” him things or “loaned” him things that he had STOLEN— so maybe these people didn’t KNOWINGLY GIVE him these things.

coming up with the “gift” or “loan” explination when the person they are showing them to knows they can’t AFFORD them is often a ruse that they use.


Yes Ox,

that is true too – but I also was there to witness the TV, The free vacations from friends, the “tagging along” as a “Friend” theme, always living “off” others… and so many women (me included) would “Fall in love” with him and shower him with our love and kindness including special “gifts” along the way. Some of these “males” just know how good loving kind women work – and they literally “bank” on that – and even their male friends seem to pull out all stops for them – hooking them up with jobs, etc…

He just never earned his way in life by working hard and giving back. Just taking and expecting…day after day after day….

Wish I had known you back then – you would have skillet-headed some sense into me 🙂

Ox Drover

Dear LTL,

I couldn’t “skillet-head” any sense into MYSELF, what makes you think I could have pounded sense into your head!?

Each of us has to come into the wisdom of it all in our own time and manner, sometimes I just (now) tap someone to get their attention, but they have to do their own learning. I’m still learningn and falling and getting back up.l



Thanks for posting here and sharing the information that you posted. It’s been a long time since I’ve been here at LF, but I guess I needed the info. you put here. It will help me with my son. I am excited to read some more tomorrow at the sensory processing website.

Also, I needed/need to learn to “turn off” my empathy/sensitivity and found a teacher named Rose Rosetree who’s helped me some. You might like her, I don’t know


Re physical mannerisms … they fall asleep and wake up instantly – no drowsy periods like a normal person – it’s like a machine switching on and off – this has been noticed by many people about them. They also frequently wake up in a sweat even when the weather isn’t warm (I have to wonder if their subconscious is processing the shitty things they do while asleep>>?)

They can have unusually thick hair – like three or four strands out of one follicle – my P ex had this – I had never seen anything like it in my life before.

I agree re noticing everything new. And that they are frequently given things. In the time I was with the P ex he never bought an item of clothing – I bought everything when he wasn’t with me. He just wouldn’t shop. I see that he is still being given things now. He also tried to get everything for free – always on some scheme so he could ‘claim back’ expenses for dubious items or conning his employer into supplying what he wanted.

Also look for quick changes in emotional states – t his is freaky the first time you see it. The P ex was one of the ones who faked being sensitive and self aware. He pretended to be devastated when I ended it and even forced tears. When I said I wasn’t buying it he snapped out of it in a second and said ‘Okay’ as though I had just said ‘Let;s go out to dinner’ and was in a cheerful mood in an instant. Normal people go through a spectrum of moods and states when upset and getting calmed down. Not him.

Lack of eye wrinkles – look out for someone who doesn’t look their age – particularly if they have no ‘crows feet’ when they smile. Yes some people are blessed with good genetics but this is not so in the psychopath / sociopath case – they have no eye wrinkles because their smiles are not genuine. Only one smile is genuine – the Duchenne smile and it causes the whole face to smile and the eyes to wrinkle at the sides – over time it leaves lines. Sociopaths smile fake smiles with their mouths only – hence no eye wrinkles.

Some will use their hands a lot when lying – they are literally moulding and creating reality so the hands are a physical sign of it.

Of course no single sign in isolation can help us identify in a definite sense = we have to look for patterns and constellations or clusters of signs in unison to see patterns.


Midlife, whenever you talk about your ex fulla, it reminds me of mine. In particular the falling asleep/waking up instantly. And the lack of wrinklage.
I don’t know why, but I was thinking today of the first emails me and him sent to each other on findsomeone. I had noticed that his spelling was good because (this is going to sound snobby..) I had the idea in my head that I would avoid guys who spell really badly. Although of course I hadn’t told him this as it would sound utterly snobby.

So guess what..turns out he can’t spell for sh*t, and he must have run every single email through spellchecker.

He also used the pity play in saying he lost most of his pals in the divorce, which couldn’t be further from the truth.


I actually came on here to have a big rant about how my ex is now using my son to build up his new partner while simultaneously dimishing me as a mother, which he also did with his girls to his ex-wife.
However, feeling much calmer just from reading blogs and getting a sense of other peoples backgrounds kind of puts things in perspective and re-affirms my resolve to be a calm secure loving and consistent base in my sons life.

Arohanui to you all


“Why doesn’t that person have the common decency to go crazy?”

LOL!!! Yes…actually laughed out loud!!!!! AMEN!

When I was in my mid-twenties my therapist told me, after meeting with her, that it would be easier to accept my mother for what she is if she were in an institution. That statement has stuck with me for the past fifteen years! I apply it frequently in my mind when I find myself questioning my son’s father’s mental health and how I personally ended up in a relationship with a sociopath!



Ox Drover

Dear Banana,

That is one of my favorite movies, it was also a great book. I sometimes refer to a psychopath as “he must have a painting in the closet” in reference to this story.

I never thought about it as connected to dissociation, but yea, it fits! Thanks!


I would like to share a recent example of dissosociation.

Recently there devistation is a city where I live. I was praying and feeling people pain at losing their lives. I felt so terrible and helpless becuz all I had to offer was peayer. Peoples lives will never be the same EVER.

Spath ,”Imagine all the money that must be flying around if a bank was hit. Imagine how much stuff can be taken becuz the major retail centers were blown down. He didnt feel anything for the victims & how if affected them. All he can think of is how he can get into the stores and/or homes and “”find”” something he wants. I asked him,remember when your truck was briken into and your sterio was stolen? He was angry. He said,yeah “”BUT”” this is a natural disaster why do the cops keep people from taking things their insurance is gonna pay for it all anyway. He said it is better for the things to be taken and used than to have it bulldozed and wasted.

Send this to a friend