By | February 18, 2010 309 Comments

How Sociopaths Think

When reflecting on the sociopath’s style, I often find myself thinking metaphorically. For instance, in an early LoveFraud article (Sociopaths’ Cat and Mouse Game) I explored the mind of the sociopath via the metaphor of the cat toying with the mouse.

In this article, I probe a different metaphor: the small child abusing the captured insect.

But a caveat’s in order: Just as I wasn’t impugning cats as literally sociopathic in my earlier piece, I’m not suggesting here that all children, including bug torturers, are developing sociopaths (anymore than in my last LoveFraud article I was suggesting that all practical jokers are sociopaths).

On the other hand, I am suggesting that there are states of mind—normal states of mind—that approximate (more closely than we might think, or want to think) how sociopaths perceive and relate.

And so I invite you to join me as, together, we watch a small child, who sits  on a curb in front of his house, a daddy-long-legged spider in his clutches.

Let us not mince words: the child has intentionally trapped the spider; and he fully intends, and fully expects, to have his way with it. Moreover, he confidently feels that he has power over the spider to do with it, to toy with it, to experiment on it, as he wishes.

Does any of this, already, sound familiar?

But let us proceed: The child may (or may not yet) have formed an agenda for the spider—that is, he may already know what he plans to do with it, and how he plans to entertain himself with it; or, he may not yet know these things, but rather may be operating more impulsively, or perhaps taking things a step at a time.

In either case, as he stares down at the bug, the child does so with a feeling of omnipotence—that is, he has, and relishes, a sense of omnipotent control over the spider’s near and long-term destiny: he will be deciding its short and long-term fate. He knows that he can dominate the spider any way he likes, and, as we’ve established, he intends to exploit his dominance: the spider, he is well aware, will be helpless to defend itself against his designs.

And so, one by one, the child begins pulling the legs off the spider. He finds this interesting, amusing, and even thinks it’s a little funny. He wonders, fleetingly, in pulling the spider’s legs off, if this hurts the spider?

His curiosity, however, is detached and superficial, lacking compassion and empathy. For, although it strikes him that if someone were to pull his legs off it would surely cause unspeakable pain, yet his intellectual awareness does not translate into empathy for the predicament to which he’s subjected the spider.

(The child, in a word, fails to apply the principle do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Sociopaths, of course, notoriously forsake this principle.)

And so the spider might look a little funny with no legs. And it could be amusing to see the spider, as its legs are systematically ripped off, reduced to the size of a small nipple. And it could also be amusing to watch the spider try to walk with its legs missing.

All of these (and other) prospects for entertainment intrigue the child, and support his abuse of the insect. We can say this with certainty: in his relationship to the spider, the child is solely interested in how the spider can entertain him—that is, he is curious about, and interested in, only the gratification he can derive from the spider (and from, in this case, the spider’s predicament).

The child regards and values the spider purely as an “object” which, if properly manipulated, can yield him some worthwhile satisfaction.

And so the spider, now legless, doesn’t move. The child notices that its legs, however, which lie beside it on the concrete curb, twitch all by themselves, as if they’re separately alive and as though being animated by a mysterious force. This intrigues and amuses the child who, incidentally, has momentarily lost all interest in the spider.

That is, the child presently is no longer interested in the spider, but only with the spider’s legs (which of course he tore off), finding their twitchy, independent movements curiously entertaining.

I think we can safely add that the child doesn’t hate, or feel malice towards, the spider. That’s to say, none of this is “personal.” When he sat down on the curb, the idea of targeting a spider to exploit may, or may not, have been on his mind.

The child may have been actively targeting a vulnerable insect, or maybe not; maybe the spider just happened to enter his attentional orbit at the wrong time (for the spider), and in so doing primed the child’s exploitive inclinations.

In either case, it’s easy to describe what the child feels for the spider; he feels towards the spider precisely what he feels towards any object—appreciative of it only for the satisfaction it supplies him.

Short of this, the spider rapidly loses its value for him.

This is occurring presently: As the spider’s novelty is fading, the child’s investment in it wanes. He valued the spider purely, remember, for its gratifying properties; now, as the spider grows less novel by the second, the child grows increasingly bored with it. The spider’s value, its use to the child, is steadily, rapidly depreciating.

This could be good news, or more bad news, for the spider. As his interest in the spider expends itself, the child may decide to move on. He may be finished with the spider, and so he may, finally, leave it alone. The spider may have a chance to escape with its life. That could be the good news.

But it’s also possible that the child, seeking a last satisfaction of his thirst for stimulation, may decide, perhaps impulsively, to squash the spider, to crush it, like the bud of a leaf. And if he does this, it still won’t be personal. The child doesn’t have it in for this particular spider.

This particular spider merely happened to conveniently enough meet the child’s criteria as an exploitable object.

And so it’s 50-50 whether, in his boredom, the child will move on, leaving the legless spider to regroup after its traumatization; or whether, also in his boredom, he’ll decide to mash the spider between his fingers so he can feel what it’s like to mash an insect into a  paste. That could be a curious sensation, which he’s never had (or hasn’t had it in a while).

He might find that sensation interesting, or maybe not.

And so comes the abrupt, anticlimactic end of our story, which was simply about the intersection of our neighborhood child with the unsuspecting spider.

Postscript: The child spared the spider, not from compassion, but because a cramp in his leg prompted him to rise, and stretch. But in walking away, the child inadvertently stepped on the spider, flattening and killing it. But even had he known this (and he didn’t), it’s not likely that the irony would have impressed him.

(This article is copyrighted © 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns is for convenience’s sake and not to suggest that females aren’t capable of the behaviors discussed.)

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It’s been said here many times before and it’s a fact…it was never about “us”… just as it was never about the spider per say… we just happen to cross paths with evil, it had it’s way with us and it moved on…and in the end… we too must move on.

Quantum Solace

Excellent analogy! In the early days, as I was seeing all the abnormalities in the monster I was married to, I noticed that he wasn’t even trying to be cruel, it wasn’t deliberate but, rather, it came naturally to him like a reflex. It used to freighten me to think if he decided to deliberatedly cause harm, where it would all end. Many, many, many years later, he is still doing the same things, behaving the same way and not only towards me anymore but also towards our children and others around him. In the case of this monster, he’s entirely too stupid, too pathetic and too coward to try anything bigger so he’s stuck in his cruel and malevolent mediocracy, still acting on reflex without thinking, feeling, planning much less considering the effect of his actions on others and torturing everyone and everything around him without a thought or a care.


Great article…

I cant help but wonder…what that childs life was like.. what he/she was or wasnt exposed to up until that point in his/her life…was he/she nurtured well, did he/she ever have the Itsy Bitsy Spider sung to him, played with, was he given love and attention – was there any trauma in his background, was he abused by someone, emotionally/physically, were his parents involved or treat him in a disconnected, preoccupied manner – which too – was nothing personal — just part of the way they were – busy with their own lives, or drugs, or alcohol or personality disorders or victims struggling themselves…

AND I KNOW there are some sociopaths who may be genetically born a Sociopath beginning in utero –and no amount of compassion, love, socialization would make a difference… but as I read this story — I couldnt help but NOT RELATE, and almost got nauseated at the thought of “ripping off, tearing off” the legs of any insect, animal…or getting gratification or having enjoyment watching a spider suffer (or anyone)…

But I have a hard time believing every single Sociopath was born this way. And I struggle with THAT. Because I dont know if Im in denial or if there is some truth into what went on in the lives of some of these children that got them to sit on that curb next to a spider, a family member, a friend, a stranger and make the choices to do what they do.

Trauma, disconnect, no-bonding, abuse, unhealthy parent, genetics…and/or BOTH… and the reason i want to know these things is because with the answers there might be a way to offer to them to make different choices in life — the way we NOW realize we too can make different choices with them around us, in our presence, now that we have the tools and understanding about them. Now that we made the CHOICE to learn about THEM and OURSELVES.

I know many will not agree with me – but thankfully this is a place where everyone is able to share their stories and perspectives and take from it what they may. For me its not enough to just discuss what they do, i want to know what drives them and what can be done for them to instill the knowledge in them that they have choices they havent learned or been taught or were born with a disadvantage of being unable to appreciate the beauty of choices and how it affects their lives and those around them.

I cant help but feel that some of them relate more with the tortured, helpless, spider left empty and alone — and I want to understand why that is for them.

ps. I dont feel sorry for them and I make no excuses for them. They are responsible for what they do — I just feel some of them sat on that curb with hurt and pain and fear and confusion and isolation and abuse and didnt have the tools to deal with it – and as a result – they are at the opposite end of the spectrum than us. It doesnt make what they did excusable – but when will anyone ever start to get to the bottom of it? Or do we just all have to agree they are solely the evil – the soulless – the scum of the earth because they are born this way or because they choose to be? Or ….maybe Im just in denial. I am confused by the origin of them… I think I always will be…

Ox Drover

Steve, GREAT Article–

LTL–all children start out without empathy, they learn it, they learnn what is “right and wrong” and they learn to feel guilty about doing “wrong” (displeasing their teachers/parents) The learn to FEEL these feelings.

The children raised to bomb the twin towers thought they were doing RIGHT, their consciences were CLEAN. St. Paul, when he helped stone St. Stephen, said himself, that his CONSCIENCE WAS CLEAN because the thought, he had been taught, that killing other Jews who “profained” God’s word was a GOOD thing. Later, he learned this was WRONG, but AT the TIME HE DID IT, he thought he was doing “right.”

What is “right or wrong” is a TAUGHT concept of each society or culture. In our culture right now there are some very conflicting views: Abortion, assisted suicide for the ill or elderly, gun ownership, eating meat, animals used for research, and so on.

Our conscience is violated when we do something we have been taught anjd BELIEVE IS WRONG. The psychopath does not believe there is anything wrong FOR HIM/HER, “anything goes.”

I think many if not most or even all LITTLE CHILDREN are curious about “how things work”L and I can’t remember a child I have known who did not dismenber a bug or two, but they didn’t grow up to be psychopaths, and they didn’t do it because they were abused or neglected children, they did it because they were curious and didn’t know that it was “wrong” to tear the legs off a bug.

Certain bugs today I kill without any remorse, just as I kill poison snakes that are about my home or farm without any remorse at all. If there are dogs after my livestock, I put a bullet in their heads, with NO remorse at all because if I don’t they will injure my livestock.

If the Trojan Horse P came after me I would put a bullet in HIS head without any remorse or guilt at all. I’m sure it would upset me somewhat because I do believe it is wrong to take another human life, but I wouldn’t stress too badly over it because I would only do it to protect my own life, and I think SELF DEFENSE is not “wrong.”

I’ve seen little kids throw rocks at each other or animals, and the parents or adult bystanders SHOULD tell them this is “wrong” and “how would YOU feel if you got a rock hit you?” It TEACHES the kids to be AWARE of the other’s feelings, and this is the start of empathy.

A kid has to be a certain age to comprehend what others are feeling, and to be shown that he/she should think about this and CARE about this.

My P son KNOWS what I am thinking, and he KNOWS it is wrong to put a gun to the head of a young woman and pull the trigger just because he is mad at her, but he CHOSE to do it anyway, because he has NO conscience (it made him feel powerful to do what he did) he did NOT care what she felt (NO emmpathy) he did not care about what her family would feel, he was ONLY concerned with the control he was exercising for REVENGE.

A little kid who has not yet developed the intellectual or emotional capacity for empathy cannot be expected to demonstrate it until he reaches the stage in maturation in which this CONCEPT is understandable to him, and the full concept of this I don’t think can actually be fully understood until a person reaches adulthood and the frontal cortex is fully matured.

Sure, some older but still sub teens have been neglected and have not had “good” nurturing parents or teachers and may “run wild” and do a lot of things that we would consider “not good” or “bad” even, so there is always some environment involved, I don’t think a child is DESTINED 100% to be a psychopath by genes, but I definitely think there is a propensity there for psychopathy to develop in even the most carefully nurtured child. I think my P-son is a perfect example of a kid who had a pretty darned good nurturing environment (though not perfect by any standard) but turned into a monster because his genes overcame what parenting I did for him and the nurturing he got as a young child.

I’ve seen really great people come out of HORRIBLE situations, and I’ve seen the opposite. I’d love to think it was 99% environment, but I see WAY too much evidence that genetics play a SIGNIFICANT role.


Thanks Oxy,

I was in no way suggesting that this is strictly about lack of nurturing. There are so many parents who have done their best and no matter what amount goodness and education and love they give.. their child CHOOSES a different path.

I do think it may be a combination of both…environment and genetics…maybe thats why there are so many levels of psychopathy…from mild to criminal….

I certainly have witnessed children throwing rocks and abusing animals and their parents either egging them on or saying absolutely NOTHING to TEACH THEM empathy, compassion, understanding… as well as parents who do exactly that and it falls on deaf ears…

When you said ”
St. Paul, when he helped stone St. Stephen, said himself, that his CONSCIENCE WAS CLEAN because the thought, he had been taught, that killing other Jews who “profained” God’s word was a GOOD thing.

And then you said ”

Later, he learned this was WRONG, but AT the TIME HE DID IT, he thought he was doing “right.”

When where how DID HE LEARN this WAS WRONG????????? When did he learn that??? I guess thats the gist of my confusion — At the time they do it, he thought it was right — thought it was ok — thought it was the choice to make…. but why are they exempt from learning what they do is wrong??

Ox Drover


After his vision of Christ on the way to Damascus, St Paul came to see that the Christians were the fulfillment of the Jewish law, and that they were not “blaspheming” the Law of Moses, so he saw then that following the Jewish law to kill other Jews for their religious beliefs was wrong. His mind was OPEN to new learning of “right and wrong.”

The men ( and those like them that are still alive) truly believe that killing Christians for their religious beliefs is RIGHT and GOOD and that their God will “reward” them in the afterlife for even commiting suicide if it kills the Christian “Devils.” Their minds are closed now to new learning because the old learning that they ahve received as children is so strongly reinforced by their peers, friends, and leaders. They are not, I think, psychopaths, even though what they DO is something that WE think is “wrong.” WE because of our culture and upbringing do not think others should be killed because of their religious thought. Live and let live.

The world, however, has historically, been “believe my religion or die, infidel”—it has not been so long in centuries since Europeans killed, executed and persecuted others for their religious beliefs and the “state-run” religion was the ONLY one ALLOWED. In our country, only a little over 200 years ago everyone had to pay taxes to the “state run” religion and many people were discriminated against for their religious beliefs, or drive out of town, or other persecutions.

History as far back as it goes is filled with persecution for beliefs and religious practices.

There are also people in this country NOW who have more recently BOMBED OKLAHOMA CITY because of their beliefs, or bombed abortion clinics, or killed physicians who performed abortions, so there are today people who will KILL with a clean conscience, what the rest of our society thinks is DOING WRONG.

A child must be TAUGHT what is “right or wrong” it doesn’t come naturally. A conscience must be DEVELOPED and trained into a child….some children, however, seem resistent to this training, thus the ODD child or Conduct Disorder child. Other children take the concepts of “right and wrong’ and “empathy” and INTERNALIZE THEM at the apppropriate ages when they have matured enough to grasp an abstract concept.

How can we take these “resistent” children and help them grasp and INTERNALIZE these concepts? THAT is the question.


Oxy –

The spider story just struck a chord with me… Im so thankful Steve posted this story….it begins with the child….the childs choices, the childs beliefs, the childs mind the childs genetics the childs environment the childs experiences or lack of healthy guided experiences….the child…

“How can we take these “resistent” children and help them grasp and INTERNALIZE these concepts? THAT is the question.”

Yes, how can we???????????????????????????????

Thank you Oxy…


When Paul, who was at the time, Saul, stoned Stephen, the Holy Spirit did not dwell within Him, so in his worldly, leagalistic mind, he (Saul) thought he was doing a great service to God by killing and stoning this “cult” of believers known as Christians.. it was later… after his conversion on the road to Damascus, and after the Lord spoke to him, and the Holy Spirit came to be in his heart, that he knew the truth of his actions…As you know, God blinded Saul on that road and when the Lord gave him back his sight, it was then that the Holy spirit dwelled in his heart, and he saw the world, and his actions through new “Christ-like” eyes.

Ox Drover

Thanks, Southernman, for your comments on S/Paul. I’ve enjoyed your posts lately, glad you are back here posting. Glad also that you are doing well!

LTL, science if finally (and slowly) catching up to the psychodynamics of the workings of the brain, both the genetic aspects, the environmental changes in brains after trauma, etc. My guess is at some future time there will be all kinds of things that can be done for folks that are not yet possible, medication, even operations, DNA/gene implantations, or whatever. I’d sure like to be around when all these things come to pass.


Steve and all,

A feeling of relief came over me when I read this article. I felt again, and this has been coming to me for quite some time, that the treatment I received (however much I allowed it) wasn’t ‘about’ me. It was not personal, and not a reflection of my worth. Regardless of my particular weaknesses, blind spots, and vulnerabilities; they did not make him treat me with certain cruelty. They only allowed an opening for him to meet his ‘needs’ for stimulation. He behaved as he always does, and always will, if an opportunity presents itself.

While it was happening, and for some time after, I believed I was being treated so horribly because I was causing it or somehow deserved it. And I my feelings of worthlessness were overwhelming and crippling.

Using the metaphor of the child/spider makes so clear that a psychopath’s abuse of the environment (us included) is about their internal process, and at bottom line has as much to ‘do’ with us as the spider had to do with the child.

I am extremely grateful for this knowledge; for the ability to only let the right one in, because I can now recognize the wrong one. And somehow, in some circular fashion, knowing about what and who I have been intermittently dealing with my whole life has also provided me with the insight that I am ALLOWED to protect myself. In fact entitled to, and a better person for it.

I am feeling so good about being, in my way of thinking, more awake to myself and the world.

Love to you all, Slim


Great ananlogy of the child and the spider. I have also read and experienced that for every cruel blatant act the Sociopath does, there is a small act of “kindness” and “love” that inevidebtly lure the victim into it’s toxic claws.

In the case of the child and the spider, the child might have started out with curiosity of the unseaming spider that just happened to be there but later because of his conciouss upbringing…..lured the spider with the “act of kindness and compassion” by offering it food. this would certainly have entrapped the spider into the close proximaty of the child, and the spider would unsuspectantly not been aware of the malicious fun the child had in mind.

I think I can relate to this very well….as I was allways entrapped with acts of kindness and “love” only to have my legs ripped appart while I was eating it up.


Steve –

I didnt mean to digress … I thought your article was spot on – in the way Sociopaths “think”…

Would love to see an article on the way Empaths “think”….

I “thought” one way for the longest time in my life…and then after being exposed to a Sociopath and caught up in the way they think and do….I learned to “think” and “see” life in a different light (especially mine and the lack of protection and self-awareness as it related to my choices with others.

As Slimone said “I too am feeling so good about being, in my way of thinking, more awake to myself and the world” ( Thats awesome stuff)

But in order to get there – I had to WANT TO improve my ways and my way of “thinking”

SO DO THEY – they dont seem to want to..or have the tools to know they can.. (if they can, I guess)


Great article and metaphor.
This is a very special child”A child without the restrain of “CONSCIENCE”

Awesome article again, Steve

Not to diminish the impact of your thoroughly appropriate analogy, but daddy long leg spiders give me the heeby-jeebies!

I remember staring in horrified fascination at one of their nests cradled in the corner of my Aunt’s country cabin when I was a little girl. My skin crawled then and it still does just thinking about that grotesque spider. shudder…

So weird. I have 0 problem handling tarantulas, caressing their soft fur but put a virtually harmless daddy long legs in front of me and I’m moving in hyper speed to get away.

Ok, so sorry I veered off track from the article’s purpose.

All and sundry know exactly how much I hate psychopaths and their minions. Just take a gander at what I wrote on another thread regarding my sci-fi revenge fantasy.

Unrealistic and improbable though it seems, I would jump at the chance to help rid the world of the fiends. I would. Really.



I have been thinking about the correlation in the behaviours and ‘effects’ on those around them (their children on the most part) that my ED and my ‘imaginary sister’ have in common.

My imaginary sister has had no less that 5 children in care either permanently or at some point. the one she keeps is her ‘supply’ … I am seeing now its in a very similar way to how my daughter has become ‘supply’ for the ED.

What’s interesting (I SO need a better word like..gut wrenching or revolting) is that from the interactions I have had with her, though few, I notice how ‘like’ my ED she is in speech and mannor and general effect on the people who’s lives she’s ‘touched’.

This woman was taken into care at a young age and spent the most percentage of her life away from the daily influnce of ED. from age 3.

So DIRECT nurture, by a person with sociopathic/ narcissistic? tendancies is out? Or was the damage done by 3? *addition*(cant belive I left it out*she came back in her teens for a few months. which I remembered – hence the imaginary*

What I do KNOW is that she has been DIAGNOSED with MBP by British medical professionals. Weather that’s all they are able and comfy with diagnosing and she IS also a P/S/N i dont know.

What I also DONT know is how she got to behave SO much like the ED (different play, same script) unless it WAS genetic…??

Just my thinks. I am a bit ‘out there’ at the moment. Anyone want to join some dots for me? ( or tell me there are none to join!) you are always so welcome you lovely voices of reason and experience!x


Insightful article , Steve !!!!

Some days he taunts me – like sitting right behind me at our sons’ wrestling match, sometimes he tortures me – frequent e-mails pointing out my inadequacies as a mother . some days he is silent – as if he is planning and plotting his next move.

He enjoys my discomfort , my response , my reactions .

The less I react – the more bold he gets.

He has now reverted to dropping his O/W off next door – without care who sees him. Sad ……. it is hard to watch for me and I don’t want my children to see it.

But he seems to enjoy pulling on my nerves – like the spiders legs – one by one .

Breaking off

Like this article a bunch! Thank goodness we are not as small and helpless as the spider and with our knowledge of the sociopath we have a way of escape or even to a certain extent to fight back. As a child and as an adult I saved the spiders from my sister and mother who feared them. They have a right to breathe too! 😉

Breaking off

Hey Newlife!

I had a thought, maybe you can pretend that the tiny little things he does bothers you greatly (when they don’t of course) and perhaps that will stop him from dong greater things.. if he thinks you are super week? I don’t know. BUT if you show absolutely no sign of pain that he is trying to cause he may soon see that you are tough and won’t stand for it he may cower away.. I find sociopaths shows great signs of cowardice.
I suppose it depends on who you are.. myself, I am a fighter but I know that it is fruitless to fight with him so he doesn’t get one anymore. It helps I am armored with knowledge. Thanks again Lovefraud!!

Good one Steve, Essentially they think only “for themselves” and their impulses. Period. With hindsight I can now unravel all the time he would drop some bomshell- or very scary scenario- or massive unfixable problem on me and discuss it very cooly and without emotion, watching me get uncomfortable, worried, paniced, I though it was his “macho” I can handle stress thingy.

But no, it was all malice, all forethought, and truelly sadistic pleasure he was taking, by FABRICATING the problem and leaving me to live with it. Over and over. Then a little break, a little hoo-haw- I have saved the day aren’t I grand from him, and the pattern in a metter of months would repeat.

What a sad shallow disordered person needs to live a make believe life in a make believe world in order to feel powerful. It is only lately that I am seeing what a very INSECURE person needs to be under the skin of these people…while they project omnipotence- it covers up I believe a deep deep awareness of their own emptiness. A void that can never be filled, hench the drama, the infliction of pain, the risk taking, the cheating, the excitement of having one over on people, the thrill of getting away with it, replace normal function.
I remember that mine once said, when I asked why he never discussed how he felt about stuff said simply ” I don’t have any feelings”.

That was when I coined the term “emotional autism” to describe him…not yet knowing the deliberate agony he was causing me- the physcological poison he was feeding me everyday.

And no, it is never about us. We are totally interchangeable objects of amusement- just like the spider was.

Ox Drover

Dear Blue,

My P-son is SOOOO like my sperm donor that it is unbelieveable, in his stance, his hand writing, not so much actually in physicall appearance but more in the way he talks, the way he says things, and when he is not “conning” someone he talks like him. Just so much in common. Son C actually is a PHYSICAL ringer for the sperm donor, and so am I for that matter, you can’t tell the baby and small kids pictures apart except I am obviously a girl and the clothes are different, everything else is the same.

My sperm donor’s first cousins are dead ringers for him as well, so the physical thing is obviously a strong genetic thing. But SO are the P-genes, but I actually think that came via my sperm donor’s Egg Donor. I never knew her but from ALL the stories I have heard about her narcissism, lack of compassion, cruelty and so On I have NO DOUBT this woman was a psychopath.

Her father, that she did NOT grow up around, was a bigimist and had been married 4 times that I know of, twice at once and had children by all 4 women. My GM was from the second wife. Don’t know what happened to first wife.

My P-son NEVER even met my sperm donor! Not once. So how could he ACT like him if there were not genetics involved, how could he THINK like him if there were no genetics involved?

But I DO NOT think it is DESTINY, I think at some point in his life he had CHOICES, but now that he has made them and “gotten a reward” from those choices even if that reward was just a feeling of superiority and dominance, it is SET IN STONE, and h e cannot change because he doesn’t want to.

It is like the drunk or addict that is so far gone with alcohol or drugs that there is NO hope they will ever try to get clean, they don’t want to. No matter what, they will sell their souls or anyone else’s soul for drugs even if it kills them in the process.

I have seen addicts with big horrible infections on their arms and legs and feet (shooting up between the toes or the jugulalr veins!!!) and still shooting up while they are dying with sepsis.

My P-son knows how to “behave” as he said in one of the letters I read lately that he wrote, but he also wrote it was “fun” breaking the rules in the prison and telling the warden to “shove it up his XXXX arse” he even said he could follow the rules but he didn’t thinkk breaking them would hinder his parole anyway. What kind of LOGIC is that?


Of course, I have a comment to make on this one, but first I need to read it again, soak it in some, analyze, teach a spin class, think some more, and come to my ephiphany…Ill be back soon 😛


Wonderful article Steve,

Brings up a few things for me….my dad likes to tell about the times, as a kid, he caught neigbor’s cats and painted them. All over. He thought this was very funny. I remember asking him–with all that fresh toxic paint on the cats, I mean, cats lick themselves, couldn’t they have died? He’d laugh and say, I don’t know–I never saw them again.

There’s also a group of 4 photos of me as a toddler. When I piece them together in logical order, it comes out as this:

I’m crawling on the lawn, toward a turned off sprinkler. I’m wearing a diaper and not wet at all…
Then I get closer, my face leaning down to look at it.
Then the sprinkler is turned on, and I recoil.
The last photo is me, crying, soaked with water.
My dad took all the pictures back then, and this is exactly his “sense of humor.” He would have thought that was hilarious—to turn on the sprinkler then get the “money shot”–a toddler crying with her face still in the water, soaked, but starting to look at the camera.

This stuff makes my heart hurt.

And as far as those 3 signs of a psychopath~~I think they are bedwetting, cruelty to animals and arson? My dad wet the bed until he was 17, he was cruel to any animal around and never had a pet (until my mom got a little dog & suddenly, for the 1st time ever, the dog “runs away” 3 weeks after my mom died. I think he took her to the pound, or out into the country and killed her–she would *never* have run away)
The arson I don’t know about. He hasn’t mentioned fires.

Nature or nurture? His dad was a good man. But his mom died when my dad was 2, he has no memory of her. And she was sick and in hosptial most of those 2 years. So, did he have a chance? Did he have Reactive Attachment Disorder?

Confusing…my sister is a sociopath, the other sister is a textbook narcissist. I have Generalized Anxiety Disorder.
Maybe with a dad like ours we never had a chance.

CA Mom,

Like folks have asked each other on here periodically…are you and I related?

Or, are we living parallel lives because what you just wrote above about your bio father, sisters and yourself is uncannily similar to my life.

My sperm donor (high five to Oxy pooh) was a psychopath but my oldest sister was diagnosed as a Borderline and the youngest sister is a pathological liar and seems rather emotionally lacking, numb quite often.

I don’t know what her diagnosis would be and anyway, I keep my distance from both of them.

Hell, I moved 2000 miles away from my original state so I’m pretty much distant from everyone now. Sweet.

Oh, and I also suffered close to 20 years with GAD and depression. Not anymore as I just got sick and tired of being sick and tire AND fearful all the time.

The turning point, the beginning of hope, healing and recovery for me was when I ordered this wondeful e-book off the internet called, “Panic Away”

It helped me so much in learning the cause and physical sensations associated with anxiety and panic attacks. And to finally rid myself of the crippling disorders once and for all. Yay! I’m cured!

If you’d like to read it, I would be more than happy to send it to you by email. It’s in Adobe platform.

If so, we can swap email addies or however you wish to do it.

Ox Drover

Dear CAMom.,

The story about your father and you and the sprinkler makes me want to b1atch-slap him!

Not all, in fact, not most, of psychopaths are animal mutilators or abusers, but I would Say that ALL people who abuse animals are psychopaths, some people do it out of ignorance, some out of not caring, and some out of pure Dee old meanness. The last two I think are Ps or at least on the scale of Ps somewhere. But, most Ps don’t abuse animals.

My P son did not and never has as far as I know abused an animal. He grew up with animals and becaue he “owned” them and they were HIS he did take care of them. Not because he had any “love” for them, though, I see now. People like Michael Vic who use “big bad dogs” and fight them etc. make me sick, and after my P son got out of Prison the first time, he was only out for 5 months but he got a Pit Bull pup, because they are “romping stomping bad” and that made him feel powerful to have a “big-bad dog.”

I’ve known other kids who were animal abusers as little kids, who outgrew that quickly by the time they were 5-6, and any one I have known who by 10-12 or so who would abuse an animal I think is a P as an adult. I can think of one for sure!!! But not most.

Janey, I’m sorry that your “entire” family is made up of the Ps, and many times I think a BPD is a “female version” of a P, some of them are extremely cruel but also cunning as well.

I’m also glad that you have taken your life into your own hands and overcome the GAD. Panic attacks are terrible, I’ve only had ONE in my entire life, but have worked with people who had them frequently, and I firmly believe that knowing what they are, and that you are NOT going to die, that you can overcome it is a BIG part in overcoming them. My son D developed panic attacks after the air crash in which he was also burned pretty badly but has overcome them and they are very rare now, but when he does have one, he exercises and talks himself through it. Feeling “helpless” only makes them worse I think. GOOD JOB!


Ahhhhhh…this article resonates with me, on my path of unending and LOVELY ephiphanies…

“We can say this with certainty: in his relationship to the spider, the child is solely interested in how the spider can entertain him—that is, he is curious about, and interested in, only the gratification he can derive from the spider (and from, in this case, the spider’s predicament).”

What I find striking about this statement is how vividly I am now able to understand what I meant every time I said “I feel like he’s riding on my tail wind-like I’ve got all this ‘stuff’ going and he’s along for the ride.” HE WAS! You see, we are POLAR opposites where motivation, drive, status, reputation are concerned. By being with me, it sorta upped his ‘status’ in (what he thought) other peoples eyes. He is a compliment WHORE…so, I served a significant purpose-TO MAKE HIM LOOK NORMAL/GOOD/BETTER/FINE.

“In either case, it’s easy to describe what the child feels for the spider; he feels towards the spider precisely what he feels towards any object—appreciative of it only for the satisfaction it supplies him.”

This explains quite a bit of what I was feeling much of the time when he and his child were at my house or if I was volunteered to do something TOTALLY out of my way, etc. In normal people, when we have ‘put someone out’, we have a sense of guilt and an overwhelming sense of appreciation for what someone went out of their way to do. “Princess” was no more appreciative of me and everything I did for him than the boy was of the spiders inability to leave. The more he ‘assumed’ I would to this, that and the other, the BETTER HE LOOKED, as he took credit for MY efforts. He neither cared about or for the stress or strain it put on me, as long as HE was looked at in a positive light…at my cost.

Ahhhhhh, “I can see (more) clearly now, the rain is gone…”

Ox Drover

Dear R-babe,

Glad you are having so many “Ah Ha” monents! Isn’t that GREAT!?! It all starts to come together intellectually first, I think, and then the emotions kick in too. So expect some ups and downs, but I’ve been thinking this week about some of the things that we learn, then have to process them EMOTIONALLY after we have gotten them iintellectually and it HURTS to do that, but we just take one baby step at a time, and if we fall we just get up and get back on it and keep on.

I also realized that this whole healing busiiness is a journey, not a destination. We are growing, able to grow,, wanting to grow, and doing it so well. So sometimes we stub our toes, but that is okay, we are climbing the mountains! (((hugs)))


Martha Stout talks about “synderesis”.
It is defined as:
“an innate knowledge of the basic principles of morality”.

In other words,
people are BORN with an “innate sense of morality” (or NOT),
(It is on a continueum)

It is not learned . . people just KNOW what is right and wrong (or don’t).
I believe that that is true (and my experience has born that out)



As I was talking with a collegue yesterday, she said something that struck me. We were processing the pain I was in, as yesterday was a day I crumbled. What she said was this…
“I think you grieved the relationship a long time ago. I think you knew that your ‘relationship’ wasn’t real and on some level you knew he was using you. What I think is happening now is you are grieving yourself and the victimization that occured. You couldn’t have known this was going to happen because you dont function from the same place as him. You are normal and expect normal things from a partner. So, your grief may not be coming from the loss of HIM (because I know he is a fucked up hot mess), as much as it is you coming to grips with the fact that you were VERY vulnerable, without you even knowing HOW vulnerable you were. He scraped everything ‘good’ about you raw’…

WOW! With friends like that I should be on my way to healing in no time!!!!!!!!!! 😛

Ox Drover

Dear R-Babe,

You know that concept is so RIGHT ON. I bashed myself on the head for being so FREAKING STOOOPID and I felt so ashamed of having been taken by the psychopaths that I was SOOOOO down on myself and I felt hey, “how can a smart woman be sooooo STOOOPID?” But you know it is NOT about being smart, or cunning or stupid or anything else it is about being HUMAN and making mistakes, letting others con us, but it is not BECAUSE we are “bad” it is because we are human and in some ways “gullible” because we expect others to be good to us because we are good tothem.

Problem was, just because I was good to someone, they were NOT good to me, and being “better” TO THEM, allowing them to disrespect me more, did NOT make them better to me. It only allowed them to abuse and use me without consequences. DUH! Yep, I shoulda been “smarter’n that” but I wasn’t. I had a maliginant hope that if I overlooked other’s faults, didn’t challenge them or make them mad, then they would love me—DUH! Duddn’t work that way! Not on yer tin type, chickie—-EXPECT and DEMAND that others treat you with the same respect you treat them with and if thye don’t, then bye, bye! We were working on the wrong premise.

we were doing unto others as we would have them to do to us, but THEY were DOING US, and it hurt us to realize that they were not what we wanted them to be, the relationship wasn’t what we wanted, but we put up with it. NOW we have learned better—we still need practice, but we KNOW BETTER NOW. We will expect others to be kind and good to us, and we will CONTINE to be good to others, BUT—if they are not, then we will WALK away if we can…if not, we will turn and fight to the death, but we will not allow others to abuse us and we WILL QUIT ABUSING OURSELVES as well!

Good friend you have there, too! Keep her around! ((hugs))))



Good to see you posting. How is your daughter doing post-surgery?

Today I got great news! After being out of work over a year I got a great job offer doing exactly what I want to do for the employer I had wanted to work for! I am still floating in the clouds. To ice the cake, after I got the offer, two more employers called wanting to interview me. Go figure.


I am so touched by your deep understanding of the problem, Steve. Excellent analogy. Sad to say, it is true.


JANE SMITH : I would like to read the panic away book!


Jane I would love to read that book. i heard this phrase on Oprah tonite – ‘You can’t find peace until you find all the peice’s’. you seem to have gotten your peices together the past 2 years – so anything you recommend is worth reading. I wish I had the confidence you seem to have in your writings, they are always positive and uplifting.


I watched Oprah too.
I WROTE that phrase down….
DOn’t ya just love it!!!
You can’t find peace until you find all the pieces.

I have had a hard time explaining to some why I feel the need to put my million piece puzzle together…..of my life….
THis quote sums it right up!


JANE SMITH: ME too! I would love to read the book. Still struggle with panic attacks. How do we exchange emails? Is it OK to put mine on here?

Thank you for a very kind offer. And sorry your dad and sisters are so much like mine. Good for you–2,000 miles away!


Steve and all

I do not experience any relief at all knowing that the torture of me (or the spider) was “nothing personal” in fact, it makes it more traumatic.

As a human being I connect through feelings, intelligence and empathy/sympathy/understanding so to find myself in the hands of someone like that is nearly unbearable….

This post is possibly the coldest, most clinical account of sociopathy.

It fills me with horror and sadness that any child would sit and torture an insect. I would (and have many times ) intervened

There is cruelty out there in every form imaginable happening right now,


Bullet proof signing off…very upset (another layer)


(((((bulletproof: i hear you girl.)))))


warning – rant

i must be a bit numb, i cannot take this article in. it seems in the distance from me.
i am ill, and today is bad.

i have been reading and writing about other’s experiences with spaths. i hate them. i hate the hurt and the unhealed lives we have to endure, as we try so mightily to persevere and then to heal. i hate that my spath goes on, doing what her spathy self does. i hate that people say to not out her, instead of helping me to figure out how to be smart about it. it is hanging over my head, making me sick. sick bitch of a spath. i feel soooo lonely, and so very isolated by the phyiscal pain and feel friendless – and unable to reach out – to sit at the computer somehow drains me right now. i try to rest and not do more than i can – but so much more needs to be done. and home is not a safe place to be.

i am in a lot of pain today – and know i will lose at least half of the work day because of this.

i looked at this week – and knew i had to go to the doctor and got good info from a friend on how to deal with the physical after affect of the mugging , and thinking that massage might help, so i called a massage therapist i know and told him i was sick and need help and have no money to pay him, and would he give me a free massage – he said yes. so i will go in a couple of hours.

i slept with the window very wide open last night – i have to because of th echemicals and my neck and shoulders cramped and now i am not good. i had a couple of days of atavan to deal wih some of the mugging stuff – i would not become addicted to any street or any other pharma (beleive me, i tried)- but i swear, for someone who has spent so long in physical pain , i could def. go for atavan. so day 2 no atavan and all the pain is weighing on me. i have just taken some pain killers, and if i take the max i can i will kill this headache. and taking the max in not what i need to do to detox my liver. but i have to be patient. AND kill something.

thie virus i have hits the stomach – so puking and coughing – my god i feel like shit. next week my job ends…..i have so
much to do.

i fucking hate how hurt i feel. i am in a cafe to work – wish i was private i need to cry. i feel abandoned and dismissed in so many ways by so many. i get so angry at those who have done this. every fucking day i am angrier and angrier.


MATT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THAT IS SUCH GOOD NEWS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Maybe you should even interview for the other two jobs – you never know what contacts you will make !!!!

Thanks for asking – darling daughter is going back to school this coming Monday – she is a wonder and an amazing person !!!! I am so proud of her in so many ways.

Hoping Spring comes in close to being divorced. HE is not budging or being reasonable about anything but I know the walls are closing in so he either has to sell his B-B-Q joint or take on a partner to raise cash.

Like you waiting for the right job- I am waiting for my release !!!

So happy for you , Matt – you offer people here so much support and help – you deserve the best …..

And how is that relationship going ??????

CAMom, One Step, Hens…

So sorry it’s taken me til the next day to respond to your comments.

After my post to CAMom, I laid down to take a wee nap and ended up sleeping til midnight. Then I woke up, bright eyed and bushy tailed and watched a french film on TV. Silly me!…haha

Of course I will forward the e book to all of you. You can request Miss Donna to send your email addies to me and I will send it on it’s helpful way.

I should have mentioned that yes, that lovely lil e book helped me tremendously when I was seeking answers and a solution to my anxiety and panic attacks, but it was only the first step in overcoming the disorders.

Baby steps, that’s what it took over months and months to win my years upon years battle to reclamation and recovery.

First step is to educate yourself on what, why and how anxiety affects your mind and body. Your mind, those obsessive thoughts, irrational fears are what cause the anxiety and panic attacks in the first place.

If you can reprogram your mind to use your wonderful logic in realizing that those consuming irrational fears are just that…irrational, fruitless and insubstantial, your panic attacks will stop in frequency and the underlying anxiety will disappear. Over time and with determined practice.

Ok, I’ll continue chatting with you folks about this after you read the ebook.

I’m not bragging about being completely free of anxiety and panic attacks; I haven’t had a panic attack in over 3-4 years and now if I feel a bit anxious, I’m not afraid and welcome the adrenaline rush.

No, I’m not a junkie as of yet…haha, but I’m no longer afraid of trying anything new and maybe a bit dangerous, like flying in airplanes (love the take offs and landings. like a roller coaster ride) and other such fun stuff that terrified me in the past.

I will try to help anyone who suffers because I am factual proof that you most certainly can reclaim your life, independence and liberty from debilitating anxiety and panic attacks.

Peace, Love and Joy

One more thing…

I would be remiss if I didn’t mention that there’s no way I could have rid myself of generalized anxiety and panic attacks without the loving, merciful, compassionate, invaluable help of the Triune God.

I tried for years to just do it by myself and always failing, never going forward but moving backwards instead.

I guess I came to a point where I was so very weary, energy depleted and realized that my obstinacy, my do-it-yourself attitude was just not working, accomplishing nothing.

I reached out, body-mind-spirit, to the Heavens and my prayers were answered. It felt like a tremendous burden had been taken off my shoulders and I felt free for the first time in my life. Really, I did.

I was agoraphobic at this time, terrified of social situations, people and simply going outside my house. Awful time.

But I was firmly dedicated to conquering those stupid, suffocating, irrational fears and began taking long walks through the neighborhoods of the little town in Central Texas that I’d move to after leaving Houston.

I was never alone. Jesus the Christ was holding my hand the whole scary time. Little by little, forcing myself outside every day when the weather was nice, my fears began to evaporate.

I would greet people in the street and start to chat with them about anything and everything under the sun (this is a little town in Texas…most people were very kind and friendly.)

I’ve always been a curious gal so as my irrational fears of being judged harshly and critically disappeared, my gentle smile emerged and the true, real, personable, friendly woman appeared.

It was marvelous to say the least…haha. It felt so darn good conversing with people. And, with many things, practice makes perfect. Or, maybe not perfect, but much more comfortable, relaxed and calm in my own skin.

Please believe me when I say I’m not discussing my experiences to elicit sympathy. I no longer suffer from these disorders. They are gone, poof, in the past. Vanquished and forgotten are the terrible obsessive thoughts and fears, the creepy physical sensations.

I write about it on LF only to help others. Or at least try to help.

If I can be totally healed from GAD and panic disorder so can you. Have faith and love for yourself and it can happen!




Thanks for your good wishes.

Glad to hear your daughter is making progress and will be back in school on Monday. I’m sure that her father will revert to his usual self now that the crisis has passed.

Also glad to hear that you are making progress on the divorce front.

I was thinking about your situation and how your S-ex drained funds from jyour joint accounts and properties and then plowed them into “His” restaurant, construction company, rental properties etc. Has your lawyer traced the proceeds from the jointly held accounts and properties to “his” accounts? Tracing the proceeds (following the money) is the way fraud is proved, etc and then recalling the funds. Seems to me the same principles would apply in a divorce situation. A court could take the position since they were jointly held assets he had the right to use them, but it seems a strong counter argument could be made that while that is true, he cannot convert them to assets held solely in his name during a marriage. That flies in the face of marriage being viewed as an economic partnership. Just a thought.

As for my relationship, it is going very well. We’re going on 8 months now. He’s 100% supportive of my taking this position and is planning to start job-hunting in WDC himself once I get settled in. In the meantime we’ll commute back and forth on weekends. Fortunately with my new job I get every other Friday off so I get extra time that way. How different life becomes when you have somebody who supports you instead of undercuts you every step of the way.

I was also thinking of your S-ex’s recent behavior toward you which seems to be escalating. I disagree with the blogger who suggested you respond to his little things. I think you should hold the course and not respond at all. My take is the more he escalates, the more he’ll screw up and the more people will figure out what he’s all about. Basically, you’re helping him to self destruct. Not a happy place to be in, I know. But, I’m of the school of thought that you cannot placate these creatures even for a moment, because then they detect it as a sign of weakness. Once the divorce and economic turmoil are over your only contact with him will be over the kids, and since your son is younger that means what? 8 more years of his nonsense and then you can tell him to fuck off? Sounds like a plan to me.


Thanks, sweetie. But it is what it is. Some members of my “family” are dysfunctional, toxic. So I keep my distance from them. Literally and figuratively.

I don’t think my older sister likes the improved, blunt, intolerant for bullchit, fully aware and awake me.

Yes, I believe she loves me as I love her and my baby sister equally but she becomes frustrated when I insist on being realistic, truth oriented, residing on terra firma when she begins spouting her ridiculous, selfish nonsense to me. I got no patience for her crap and tell her so.

Guess that’s why I don’t hear from her anymore. Oh well. As the Cave Man boss tells his befuddled Cave man employee on that Fed Ex commercial…”not my problem”…haha!

I love reality. I accept, embrace and celebrate it cuz it’s the only way to fly! The path to mind blowing liberty, independence and universal truth.

Big huggles for you!!

(ps…totally diggin the edit/delete feature Miss Donna installed. Thnxs!)

Jake B.

Bulletproof :”I do not experience any relief at all knowing that the torture of me (or the spider) was “nothing personal” in fact, it makes it more traumatic.”

One_step ‘i fucking hate how hurt i feel. i am in a cafe to work ”“ wish i was private i need to cry. i feel abandoned and dismissed in so many ways by so many. i get so angry at those who have done this. every fucking day i am angrier and angrier.”

Girls I feel your pain. I know because I have empathy also.

To be honest, I hate empathy….it’s a damn curse. Other people say it’s a gift….all it’s given me is grief…it’s held me back all my life…..some days I’d love to be a psychopath….oh the freedom of not being accountable for any of my actions…ahh to live without any conscience… do what I like…bliss!

I read, I read, and damn well read!!!,….I get it, I get it, and I damn well get it!!!……

Knowledge is power they say. Workout the past so you can move on into the future…

I sit looking out the window of my apartment, over looking Sydney Harbour with the million dollar views. Tourists everywhere taking it all in. People say it’s so beautiful here..I should be sooo lucky…it’s paradise….couples walking by, hand in hand and in love…….I really don’t need to see this shit…paradise sucks big time….bring on a friggin tsunami!!

But me, I sit here looking out the window…..dazed, confused, angry, angry, angry, hurt, abandoned, used, devalued, sad, and ripped off!……

Logically I get it, I’ve gotten it for a long time, but my heart…oh the stooopid heart…’s pathetic…all I ask and want now is for this friggin pain to stop damnit….

God are you listening to me?…well are you?…I don’t want another day like this…I want some pain relief for shit sake!!


Dear Jake: what i bring to the table is my own pain and my empathy. these are the things that crawl most quickly to the surface in repsonse to your post. brother of the broken hearted tribe.

– warning to all who don’t wanna hear it, it’s goona get ugly now –

i have done what i had to today. I could not work. there was too much contained anguish and too much physical pain. so i came home and took something for the physical pain and the anxiety, and i lay down in my shitty apt and tried to rest. i have lost another day of work, which i will have to make up tomorrow. and i try to think of this without anxiety – how much i need to do my work to finish my contract in the next week, and how much i really need tomorrow off – but here are competing needs.

i have flopped as a worker in the last months since the spath left. day in day out up and down. laid waste somehow.

i am running out of steam. i struggle to write here. i struggle to write email. to commit to caring for myself; it is a job bigger than me right now.

and i need so much more love and help and gentleness in my life. i cannot pull it out of my ass right now – i am laid waste.

i don’t know how old you are jake. but i always thought it would get easier with age to do live and to take care of myself an d fend for myself and really do what i want. but it has gotten harder and in hard moments – i see the spiral continuing. i know that if a few things went right that i would be more alright. the spath showed me how terribly wrong things could go.

i did everything i could for her. everything. i loved her like she was a child in need of care. it fullfilled me in ways no one knows. and she gave me laughter – gold dripping laughter. honey to my ears, balm to my spirit. time every day, just to be together. to ‘be’ with someone, to feel deeply connected.

she has eaten others like me. like bulletproof, i am not comforted. l feel lost, abandoned, hurt.

people feel like more trouble than they are worth. ’cause truly, what i am going to get? people give so little. they are callous and uncaring and full of themselves. and it’s okay if this is self pity that i am expressing. i don’t know what it is. i just fucking know i have been run over by a truck, am on the side of the road, and the flies are gathering.

i am melting down. no doubt spurred on by the assholes who stole my lunch money last week. i look at most people’s actions and hear their words and i think, liar, coward, poser.

i am accountable in a sociopathic world. i don’t know how to reconcile that with what i am. that’s the crux of it.

where are the people with their hearts opened by suffering? hwere are they in my life? do they not exist anymore? did they ever? cowards, fucking cowards, everywhere. shallow callous cowards. i fucking hate them.

i never knew what a lack of empathy was. to literally not be able to undertand that someone else feels pain. and that it matters. i have been not only empathetic, but empathic, my whole life. and trauma bonded by my family. but i was not BORN with THAT. that was a gift from generations of fucked up cocksukers: my family. i think that the gift and secret lay in unraveling the trauma bonds. these last days i cannot feel that. do not see it. feel only pain adn illness and fear of what is to come in then next weeks. and i swear to god if one more person tells me to ‘take care of myself first’, (deleted, cause i don’t mean it personally, but good fu8cking chr**t …and this piece is deleted too.) i need depth. i need people to fucking listen to me. to sit with me. to stand witness. to fucking care. to actually fucking listen to what i am saying.

there are spaths here. and others. i see them weekly. fuck you.

Ox Drover

Dear Jake,

Yea, I too live in what I always believed was MY “paradise” and it became like Dante’s HELL, covered with a black cloud, and the total feeling of “home” is no longer here, even though my family has lived on this piece of dirt for more than 170 years. It is like I disconnected from this place when I had to flee it for my life.

I have since come to see that our “home” is within our hearts, and “paradise” is within our souls. I know you are hurting, and that you “get it intellectually”—but that is the first step. It is a big one too, so don’t undercut yourself on how BIG a step it is. It is ESSENTIAL to healing.

The second step, getting it emotionally, is the difficult one as well, and is a roller coaster ride, up and down, swaying back and forth, and feeling like you are going to fall, going down the hill with your stomach in your throat, but it is not fatal, just painful.

Google Elizabeth Kubler-Ross’s name. She is an expert on grief processing and that is what we/you are doing now, processing the GRIEF that we have experienced from the losses we have suffered. Even if you didn’t get financially ripped off, you “lost” what you THOUGHT you had. It wasn’t REAL, not really, just an illusion, but you thought it was real, it felt real, it touched real, and now…it is gone!

We also I think lose TRUST IN OURSELVES to keep ourselves safe, and that is a big loss besides the other things.

My life is not all roses and violets, but it is sure a lot better, and what I do have now IS REAL, and the friends I have left are REAL, the love I have now is real, and there is no one who will betray me left close to me. I have cleaned all the rats out of my cellar and my heart! Hang on Jake, stay here and keep on reading, learning, growing and don’t give up. No matter what, don’t giv e up! (((hugs))))

Ox Drover

DEar Bullet proof

Like Steve I am sorry you got triggered by this article, but it does happen sometimes. My own posts have sometimes triggered others, and others have triggered me. I think I saw the article a bit different than you did, partly because of my med/psych background. SMALL children are not capable of real empathy when dealing with an insect, and so they do things that you or I would not do.

Hang in there, Sweetie, a BIG cyber ((((HUG)))) for you!


This article does pinpoint the attitude of many sociopaths. They do play with us like everything/one else they find entertaining at the time. Some of them swing both ways and would probably do the insect too if that would be possible. But what I want everyone to see is that they are not powerless against psycho/socio path. We are not little by any means compared to them; we are better because we can take a licking and keep on ticking enough to pull their wings off or take off their fake halos or whatever is necessary. That is what I think anyway. But not because we are mean- because that is justice prevailing. Sometimes the wheels turn a little slow for our liking, but think about it in the long run when God let’s you shoot that everlasting burning arrow into their back. Or maybe things will be so good for you that messing with the insect won’t matter anymore.


Hello Steve, we just re-watched a movie with some kids in our learning collaborative called “Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter, and Spring”…by Kim Ki-duk:

“….We are introduced the life of the very young Buddhist apprentice with his master on a small floating monastery, drifting on a lake in the serene forested mountains of Korea. The apprentice and his master live a basic life of prayer and meditation, using an old rowboat to reach the bank of the lake where they regularly go walking, for exercise and to collect herbs. One day, in a creek amongst the rocky hills, the apprentice torments a fish by tying a small stone to it with string and laughing as it struggles to swim. Shortly after, he does the same to a frog and a snake; his master quietly observes on all three occasions, and that night ties a large, smooth rock to the apprentice as he sleeps. In the morning, he tells his apprentice that he cannot take off the rock until he unties the creatures he tormented – adding that if any of them have died, he will “carry the stone in his heart forever”. The boy struggles with the load on his back through the forest, and finds the fish, lying dead on the bottom of the creek, finds the frog still alive and struggling where he left it, and finds the snake in a pool of blood, presumably attacked and killed by another animal, unable to get away. The master watches as the boy begins to cry heavily upon seeing what he has done to the snake….”

We also are to watch this coming week, “Butterfly: The Story of a Life Cycle” this is to help teach the children at an early age respect and wonder for all kinds of life as well as biology … we watch nature shows alot as well as having real life interaction with them…

I love to show movies like Babe and Milo and Stitch, The Bear March of the Penguins to individualize and personalize animals to children so they learn empathy and to relate to insects and animals at an early age.

Watching and being aware of children’s behaviors and intervening even when kids ar just being ‘kids’ is also something we like to do with them like when once a kid was taking a magnifying glass to burn ants under the florida sun. and he laughed and we waited. Then we we asked him now we’ll give you ten dollars if you last ten minutes if you take your turn under the magnifying glass and set it on your arm. Ten dollars if you last ten minutes… In the blazing sun of the Florida sun so of course he didn’t last ten minutes… a bright red burn on his arm showed up and he flinched and pulled the magnifying glass away to stop himself from burning any more… some peach fuzz hair on his arm frizzed from the burning sun magnified in strength by the magnifying glass.. Who do you think suffered more? we ask, you or the ants?

Maybe it’s just kids playing but it’s never too early to teach them awareness, respect and empathy for life.

I also like Kind Book : Educational Stories on Moral Education… We also do Philosophy for kids, where kids as young as four are asked to contemplate the purpose of life.

I like teaching awareness and thoughtfullness to kids. and subscribe to international mediums if limited here.

Also our parent groups and myself limit television exposure in kids unless it’s nature shows or Sesame Street, or educational stuff. Most of the other parents are Waldorfy too, just as i was instructed and nurtured under. So some of us don’t even own televisions.

We teach mindfullnes and fill the kids days with working activities so our kids make and create alot of stuff. (this is in the learning collaborative that i also assist in) They are making and selling natural handmade soaps locally now.

We try to push for learning to use their energies to create so they exhaust themselves with creating that it also overpowers their inclination to destroy things.

Appreciating taking time to enjoy things, like growing an organic garden and then eating from it. things like that. we make this part of our routine and rythym, mindful instruction early on as a habit and so the addictive pull of television and it’s promise of superficial instant gratification may be delayed or put off altogether by making self discipline habitual early on and very young.

Not that the child is a sociopath in the story but things like this story when we witness something sort of the same we take notice on and try to make a lesson of it immediately.

I truly beleive in whole child education.


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