This week we received the following letter from a reader of the blog. I wanted to share both the letter and my reaction to it with you:
After 30 yrs of marriage and abuse, I have finally left my passive
aggressive sociopathic narcissist husband. I have managed the No Contact fairly well, of course he is the KING of the silent treatment so it doesn’t seem to bother him.What I simply do not understand is this: We have two daughters, ages 22 and 24. We USED to have a close family, the girls were close to their dad. However after they have witnessed him abusing me, they have had a few ‘spats’ with him lately.
What completely baffles me, is that when I started the No Contact about 2 1/2 months ago, he completely stopped talking to our daughters. He hit me, and they were both angry at him, and they all argued via email and cell phones, since they live far away from us. After they got angry with him for hitting me, he cut all communication off with them. They do not call him or email him either, because they are angry and do not want to ‘beg him for his love,’ so they are all at a complete standoff.
I do not understand why he will not pursue contact of any kind. Our oldest daughter is married and having our first grandchild in a few months. She is angry at her father and yet broken hearted. She wonders if he ever thinks of her, of her pregnancy, if he cares? I don’t understand why he will not contact them, other than he is angry at them for ‘taking my side’ after he hit me, or he is a coward; afraid of how they will react to him. He used to be extremely close to them, but the older they got, the further apart they all drifted.
Both of our daughters are very strong ladies, but are not disrespectful to him. I would like to know what he is thinking or doing? Why has he cut his daughters out of his life?
Reaction 1
I wanted to entitle my next book “Stop Being Baffled” but Donna didn’t like that title so it is now Driven to Do Evil. Here is a quote from the Chapter 1:
”¦nevertheless, the (sociopath’s) behavior has baffled us because we have misunderstood the main purpose of his behavior.
Ben Bursten, M.D. The Manipulative Personality, 1971
Just what is the purpose of a sociopath’s behavior toward others? It usually boils down to either power or sex or some combination of the two.
The reason we are baffled by sociopaths is that it is hard to comprehend an inner world where the love motive does not exist. It is also hard to understand that sociopaths lack the love motive because they seem to enjoy intimacy and affection to a certain degree. It is just this enjoyment is not connected to any deep obligation to take care of another person.
So stop being baffled. He moved on because there was no real reason to interact with his daughters because they stopped being a source of power reward (also called narcissistic supply).
When you interact with a sociopath it is important to always keep in mind that he/she does not possess a love motive. By love motive I mean any need to maintain a relationship where care is given to another person independent of what is gotten in return. Sociopaths will sometimes give care when there is something in it for them.
Reaction 2
We have to educate everyone in our society about what the love and power motives are. We have to teach everyone that love means caretaking and giving, and that there are some in our families who are NOT capable of love.
Just like it is unreasonable to expect a blind person to drive a car, because he/she cannot see the road, it is unreasonable to expect a sociopath to parent.
Parenting means taking care of another person and maintaining a connection out of the joy of loving and giving. A person who cannot love has no joy in giving and so cannot parent. It is that simple.
Reaction 3
Perhaps your adult daughters would be willing to write and talk about what it feels like to have a sociopath as a parent. We need to collect these statements and use them to change our society.
Reaction 4
This disorder is familial and also related to alcoholism/addiction and ADHD. Please consider reading my book, Just Like His Father? to help you think about the needs of your grandchild.
Dr. Leedmon, Thank you so much for posting my question! Your answers fit very well to the situation and answer many of my questions.
I do not think he is capable of ‘giving’ or ‘loving’. This situation just breaks my heart into pieces; our daughters are SUCH good girls, they NEVER caused us trouble, they are trustworthy, moral, compassionate, smart young ladies. HE is the one who acted like a rebellious adolescent, not them!
Here is the real kicker: He seems to think that our daughters should call him!! Back when I asked him why he had been nasty to them, why hadn’t he contacted them, what had they done, he told me, “Well they don’t bother to call me either! They haven’t emailed me! So why should I call or email them?” I couldn’t believe it! He BLAMES constantly, nothing is EVER his fault. EVER! HE is the one who wrote nasty emails to them, then cut off communication, not the other way around. He ABUSED me, and they were very upset about this, but he even denies that he abused me! He blames ME for the abuse! (After this fight, in August, he told us that I had broken his NOSE and gave him two black eyes, strange, when I never even hit him. Then when we, my youngest daughter and I, saw him a couple of days after the fight, I asked him: “where is your broken nose? Where are your black eyes?” He lies so much that he just ignored me, blew off my questions. I had to go to the ER, I have xrays of a broken foot, scrapes, broken glasses, but he fails to acknowledge that! Just lies and says HE was injured! GEEZ.)
I just find this situation with our daughters so heartbreaking. When he devalued and discarded ME, that was one thing, but our daughters? It really hurt me, but I am beginning to understand. He just is not capable of giving or loving. It seems to have gotten much worse as he has aged. Is this common?
Someone told me once that the reason he was such a good father when our girls were young, was because they worshipped him, idolized him. Then when they got older, and formulated their own ideas and opinions, started having boyfriends and outside interests, he started distancing from them and seemed to lose interest in them. Like what you said in your ‘Reaction 1″: “He moved on because there was no real reason to interact with his daughters because they stopped being a source of power reward (also called narcissistic supply).” Unfortunately for them, they just LOVED their daddy, because he was so good with them when they were young, and they were all so close. Now, it makes it hurt all the more that he has cut them out of his life.
A part of me is having a VERY difficult time believing this, accepting that our daughters were his ‘narcissistic supply”. But I know it is true. I KNOW it is true! There can be no other explanation! I just cannot imagine NOT talking to my daughters, NOT loving them, having them in my life, and he has not talked to them in months! I cannot imagine ‘using’ them for supply! it is a BIG pill to swallow!
I have encouraged my daughters to read Lovefraud and to respond to this blog. I have learned SO much, learned that there are so many others out there like us, so many hurt people. They are both hesitant to ‘open up’ about this but I hope they do, so that they can find answers and healing like I have.
Dr. Leedom, Thank you for this response to ann….you are so accurate…..and we do need to hear from children of S’s…..it would create a very insightful informational eye opening from the unheard victims.
I was in tears last night as I went to bed and caught a glipse of a photograph of the young, beautiful child I birthed with a suspected Sociopath.
Sad thinking how wonderful a father he was in the early years. (This was when this photo was taken), and the question I now have the answer to….what went wrong?
The answer to that question is…..our son adored his father when he was a young child. Once the child developed a mind of his own, his father became combative and controlling for this adoring behaviors. The more his father controlled him, the further away his son got emotionally. Until it turned into outright abuse. Neither won…..the child could not be controlled and the father did not recieve the admiration and ‘respect’ he outright demanded.
You see, the child evolved in a healthy manner, he spoke his mind, he became questioning of authority, he was discovering he was an individual.
The father wanted a clone….an admirer….someone to relish his ego, become a duplicate of him, someone he could claim as HIS own production…..our son never complied. He didn’t enjoy the sports his father did, didn’t think the same way his father did, didn’t have the sams hobbies as his father…..He wasn’t a very good supply for the sociopath…..it created narcissistic injury to his father…
The child was no longer the ‘supply’, the father needed.
It’s been several years since the two have had contact……it’s a sad situation, one I never imagined would occur. But having a sick father, it’s best for the children this way. When these kids choose to remain in their emotionally/physically abusive parents life, it causes further damage and does not allow for healing to begin. (whether or not the abuse is directed to them at that point or not…..it soon will be, it’s all about supply)
As for us, our healing only began after we exited the immediate situation. We were able to see clearly and start the journey from hell.
As mothers…. with love, compassion and empathy….NO we would never have written our childrens stories to involve parentally precipitated pain.
This is why it is so hard to believe. But it is the reality we must accept. We did all we could to provide our children with a stable, loving environment…..we just couldn’t change the ‘other’ party.
It’s up to these kids to see what it is they are dealing with, just like any other person in the Sociopaths life. Some will continue to deny, some will jump ship and minimize the damage…..some will continue to enable and be in the fog and enable to Sociopath to wreak havoc on other family members…..until they see the smoke from the fire.
Being destroyed by a Sociopath, and having family in denial and enableing him to wreak further destruction of me….I say…..count your blessings he is ‘punishing’ them with his own No Contact!
It will hopefully, give your kids the space they need to educate themselves of the dangers a Sociopath .
I cried for the loss of inocence for my son. His father was horrible towards him as he grew into a teen…..name calling, setting him up with other people, he made him into a victim so he could be the rescuer…..the one who looked like the hero…..this is what people around us bought into…Oh, he loves his child………because it’s just so hard (as a normal thinker) to understand the concept of ‘supply’…..others being used as ‘supply’ as fulfillment of another persons inadequicies.
It’s just easier to remain in the dark and keep your eyes closed to the abuse going on around you!
Yes darling…….unfortunately, there are many, many more of us out here.
And until society chooses to recognize these disorders….there will be many, many more to walk in our shoes!
Ann, Erin
You are not alone…Ann the same thing has happened to our family. Loving father, daugther and son…until they grew up, and started having their own personalities and views . When they understood the abuses I was under, they became very angry towards the father… the abuses continued in disguise but the children were smart and they knew exactly what was going on…up to the point they begged me to separate because they could no longer see the abuses against me…..neither could I..but I knew that from the moment I separated from him he was going to use (to hurt) the children to get on to me…but I could never ever imagine that he was going to abandoned them…full stop.. He used to be our daugther’s soccer coach and they were so close and also our son as well. At the end of their College years I could not accept the humiliations anymore and very inteligently I managed to get out from the relationship. In return he discarded and abandoned us all. Even the daughter begged him to talk to her and to her brother. From the other side of the world he said.. “you guys are alone and you are suffering the pain of abandonment”. “I am happy and enjoying my life very much..”
How much cruel can a father be?..
Well that was enough for the children to become really strong and me as well. Together we stood strong and worked our way up. Today we are really well and still no contact…but after 8 years my son decided to find out what life has reserved for his father and managed to get his number and gave him a call… Well he is not well very sad, poor and this was reflected in his voice.. full of stories and blames..when he tried to blame me my son’s reply was.. “Dad don’t forget that I grew up in that household..mum has never done anything to you..if I am the man that I am today thanks to her …I have also changed my last name because your family name has done nothing for me’.
The father silenced and started crying…
A few months ago he sent an email to our son asking our son to buy something for him.. and just after that he sent another email wishing our son a happy birthday. After 8 years it was the first time he remembered the son’s birthday …why? well now he needed something from his son and possibly preparing to ask for money..
Our daugther can not even pronounce his name. She blocked his existence completed from her mind , maybe as a coping mechanism.
I could never understand how he could have done that…..but after my learning in Love Fraud things are becoming clear. I can now understand things which were senseless and beyond comphrehension.
You are not alone..it is very hurtfull and when I realised what he was doing I nearly broke down, but I could put myself together..
Today my son at 24 years old is a highly paid Executive in a Merchant Bank (very rare talent) and my daughter also graduated from Uni and very successful in her field. I resigned from my Public service career and openned up my own company and I am loving it.. Time will heall all wounds…I hope..
Once we understand their desease and their weaknesses as human beings, we cope better..
Love to you
There are problems and distortions with my thinking and perceptions.
I grew up in a very dysfunctional family, and my mother was such a Narcissist. I did not even know what a Narcissist WAS until a few years ago, when a cousin of mine mentioned that my mother was a narcissist, and I started to read everything I could get my hands on about Narcissism. I was aware that I grew up in an extremely painful environment; mainly I felt unloved by my parents and family; not just unloved but despised! It was so painful that my number one goal in raising my own children was this: My children will NEVER feel unloved. When I started reading about Narcissism, I could not stop-I finally discovered what the problems with my mother were -she was a Narcissist in every way.
My father was physically abusive, my mother put him up to beating us kids, brutally at times. The minute he hit the door after work she had a ‘list’ of our wrongdoings, and he would start in with my oldest brother first. However the emotional abuse that my parents, esp. my mother, inflicted on us was far worse to me than the physical abuse. I cannot even begin to describe it all. We all had nicknames: The Fat Ass, the Asshole, The Bitch (me) and the Prick. That is what we were called. All of my family, parents and brothers, were highly intelligent and everyone in the family is quite educated and is a professional of some sort; my brothers are physicians, dad was an anesthetist and my mom was a Medical Technologist who only worked for 1 yr of her life after attending 4 yrs of college and grad school. We were all overachievers. I knew they were all smart, they were very sharp witted and sarcastic, and I could not even begin to defend myself. Even into my late 40s, I have been unaware of all of the abuse that goes on with my family of origin. My kids were the ones who pointed out so many things to me, for instance my brothers are cruel to me, and I never even really noticed it till my kids pointed it out. They are selfish and rude, and my daughters pointed that out too. I guess I have become desensitized to it all.
When I read Dr. Leedom’s statement: “We have to teach everyone that love means caretaking and giving, and that there are some in our families who are NOT capable of love”, I thought “AMEN to THAT”.
It is no wonder that I married a Narcissist and an Abuser, it was comfortable and familiar. How did I end up being so compassionate, empathetic, sensitive? I feel sorry for nearly everyone, I feel so bad for ppl and all that they suffer. I have ended up getting screwed over and walked a good deal of my life, after befriending needy people. I end up in these situations where I give and give endlessly, to the point of exhaustion. Then when this ‘friend’ has sucked the life out of me, they dump me and move on.
I don’t understand why I don’t cope in a better way with all of this. It is not like it is all ‘new’ to me. Yet each time something happens, like abuse or infidelity or any number of things, I am shocked and outraged, full of disbelief and pain. I usually end up blaming myself, and I get very depressed and full of anxiety. I am baffled as to why I do not ‘roll with the punches’ better than I do. as I am certainly no stranger to all of this. Most people seem to be able to ‘move on’, while I get stuck in each incident, full of pain and disbelief.
At this point in time, I am just stifled with pain and disbelief. I don’t get it at all. I feel so bad for my kids. But EB you bring up a VERY good point: better to have no contact at all than to get stuck in the enabling of the Sociopath (which is what I did with my mother) and live in a fog and WORSE pain. The NC actually IS a blessing, and I SHOULD KNOW that! I have been there! I wish I could look at all this like you do EB. You sound empowered and very much a realistist, have made the best you can out of bad situation, and even though I have learned so much and know/understand much of it, I CANNOT SEEM TO APPLY IT TO MY OWN LIFE! It is frustrating me!
Sorry for writing an epic novel, and thanks for sharing EB! You make some VERY good and realistic points!
Thank you Brilhancy, for sharing your story, very sad story. I have never known anyone personally who had a husband/father abandon their family like this, so I have been full of ‘why me’ thoughts. Your story helps me realize I am not alone.
Just like your husband (ex), mine was a coach for both of our girls, playing baseball. They had so much fun.
You said that your ex called your son (to buy something for him no less) and that when the ex started blaming you, your son said “Dad don’t forget that I grew up in that household..mum has never done anything to you..if I am the man that I am today thanks to her ”I have also changed my last name because your family name has done nothing for me’.
The father silenced and started crying”
(this may be mean, and I am sorry, but I think it is FUNNY that your kids changed their laat names!)
Do you think he REALIZED he had done wrong?
Like your kids, my daughters BEGGED me to separate/divorce because they couldnt stomach him abusing ME anymore.
Thanks for posting your story! I am SO very sorry your kids had to endure all of that rejection and cruelty from their own DAD!
Wonderful article, Liane, as always!
Ann, growing up in such a family, and then continuing the chain of pain is more usual than unusual I think. I am glad that you are cutting the links to that painful past. God bless and speed your recovery! ((((hugs)))
Ann, Brilliancy:
Ditto for me too….
Kids begged me, planned for it, presented me with a new ‘game plan’…..to leave him for years…I couldn’t understand it and discounted how important this was to them.
Kids asked if they could also change their name, he abandoned them, his family abandoned them……Although I am not proud of my parents ,in the least for going along with him, and hurting our children…I will not return to my maiden name…..I am waiting until they are 18….then we will PICK a name together be whoever……
The funny think about this is…..the ex is very, very vocal about me not changing my name back to maiden RIGHT AWAY…..so when we do pick a name…..he will be blown away that we all will be changing it.
Again…..his viewpoint is…..they are mine, all mine….and see they have MY name….they can’t change that!
the ex was also the…..’involved coach’….another appearance thing…..this is something he still spouts….I love my kids….I was the COACH!
Yes, but you only used your children as the pawns to your appearance!
Ann…..you are rolling with the punches…..you are walking through the pain….you are doing the right things…..it hurts…it doesn’t feel good, but what your feeling doesn’t last…..if you continue to process this pain…….
We all question ourselves, we all doubt ourselves……
over time and through your own awareness you will come to trust in what you lived.
We are programmed as children with the parents we had/have…I know I was…..keep helping, keep giving the last of your food and all will come back around………..
NOT SO…..
You have to be able to have charity to give charity.
We don’t have to give the shirt off our backs…..for some reason this has become this admirable feat……IT”S NOT…it’s stupidity!
Your a good person, trying to find balance in your thinking, your actions and such.
Don’t be too hard on yourself….it’s not YOU, don’t take it personally……
The whole design of this disorder is to make doubt!
AND NO……he didn’t realize he did wrong…..they never do….they cry tears other than we do….other than why real feeling persons do……..
I am prepared for the end of the restraining orders…..and him showing back up again……
Oh, no there won’t be any heartfelt apologies, no lessons learned, no miles and miles of counseling, no changed man…….there will be more blaming, pain and shame…….
We have educated ourselves and grown…..he never will!
Liane, thanks for stating the obvious – sometimes I need a reminder: By love motive I mean any need to maintain a relationship where care is given to another person independent of what is gotten in return. Sociopaths will sometimes give care when there is something in it for them.
I’m always the one with the love motive but the other person turns out to have ulterior motives. I will be more vigilent from now on.
Reading about how perplexed people feel over the sudden change in behavior of their P’s when the N-supplies stop giving supply, made me realize that I lucked out.
In my situation, my xP was so nice for a few years and I thought that the bad parts were just him being inconsiderate and thoughtless. At the end of 25 years, he was vicious. But even still, I would have chalked it up to a change of heart if it weren’t for the fact that my dad overheard him tell someone that he was only with me for my money. Of course it took my P-dad 25 YEARS to mention it to me. Still, I feel lucky that I have conclusive proof, that there was no “change of heart”. He never had a heart at all. There was a change in behavior when it no longer benefited him to be nice, but there was no point in time when he actually WAS nice.
Dr. Leedom,
Thank you for this article. The timing of it makes me wonder if it is divinely inspired.
In March of this year, my ex took me back to court crying “Parental Alienation Syndrom.” The truth is, he didn’t even attempt to excercise his parental rights to visitation. He would set the kids up, then cancel. Or, he would lie about the kid’s behavior, which upset them. They expected an apology and admission of his lies, before they would spend time with him, again. In stead, he took me back to court.
At the end of July, the Judge determined our oldest daughter, together, was old enough to make up her own mind (15). She no longer was court ordered to go with him. I told my attorney, “Watch. Now that he cannot use her to theaten me, he will “target” her. His motive will be to get her to refuse to go when he has the other kids. This way, she will no longer be a witness to his manipulative, brainwashing, intimidating behavior. Within a month, my ex was setting the siblings against each other, saying to our 15 year old daughter, “WE have more FUN, when YOU are NOT HERE. I don’t want you to come with us. Why don’t you stay home? We (implying the other two kids) like it better when you don’t come with us.” (which is not true. The two younger kids refuse to go with him, alone, without their older sister.)
She was no longer useful to him. All his carrying on about how much he loves his children, misses them, and is heart broken over not participating in their lives, and as soon as the court releases his grip on legal control, his true intentions are revealed. In response, my attorney said, “Wow! You really called that one.” Sadly, it is predictable.
So much of what I read in here blows me away with how text book their behavior is. Except for changing the names, the stories all have the same threads of truth. I’m really surprised that the affects of this type of personality disorder is not more widely known, as it seems the commonality of the motives, deception, and devistating effects left in the wake of their distructive influence is marked by very clear patterns of behavior.
An another note, can anyone help me? I’ve read some articles, and posted comments. When I come back, I don’t remember which articles I posted the comments on, is there any way to check where previous comments/questions were posted?
Isabell, I have the exact same problem about which ‘which article did I post one”? I keep wondering if there is a ‘feed’ or something where we can find the most recent articles first, so we can find our own! However I have not found anything like this so far. Does anyone know?
It is amazing that you are so well in sync with the behavior of an “S” that you could predict it like that! I feel like a fool most of the time, because I forget that he is not ‘normal’ and doesn’t think with compassion and empathy like regular people, esp regarding our children. I keep forgetting he doesn’t care, so when he acts this way, I am shocked and befuddled all over again.
I am sorry to have to read all of these stories about how these people treat their children. I always felt like it was an ‘instinct’ to protect and care for our children but it is obviously not.