By | October 23, 2009 91 Comments

All that glitters is not gold

By Ox Drover

Going through my family photos I came across one of my two oldest sons. We had gone on vacation to Montana to visit a friend for the summer in 1981. They were about 10 and 11 years old. My friend took us around to all the local sights and showed us some old gold mines dug back into the solid rock.

In the photo made that summer, I saw my sons, both kneeling on a huge rock about five feet from the edge of a stream of rapidly flowing water, with a gold pan in their hands. My friend had put a handful of sand from the edge of the creek into the wok-shaped pan and showed them how to swirl the sand in the bottom and let the rushing water wash away the lighter sand, and told them that the heavier gold dust would stay in the bottom of the pan.

They were so excited to be panning for real gold and before long they started to see flakes of glitter in the bottom of their pan. It shone like the sun and made them very excited and they were talking about all the things they would buy with the fruit of their efforts. GOLD!!! REAL GOLD!!!

When they had a teaspoon or so of golden dust in the bottom of their pans, they could come to the bank of the river and put it into a plastic container. Then they would scoop up more sand and go back out on the big rock in the river’s edge. They worked for hours digging and panning for gold dust, excitedly washing the sand they dug, and keeping the glittering dust in the bottom.

As my friend and I sat on the bank of the creek watching the boys enjoying their experience, he leaned over to me and said, “I don’t have the heart to tell them it is fool’s gold they are panning.”

I sort of chuckled that day, and never really did tell the boys that their work was for naught, or that what they thought was a treasure trove of real gold was nothing but pyrite, or “fool’s gold.” Eventually, I think they figured it out for themselves, and my oldest son still has a small jar with the fool’s gold in the bottom.

I was thinking about “fool’s gold,” in terms of false things that glitter and mimic “the real thing” but are, in truth, worthless. A psychopath’s claims of loving us, their claims that they care for us, are “fool’s gold,” because in fact, they don’t have the capacity to love or care.

The miner who came back to “Deadwood” with a big poke (bag) of fool’s gold would be the laughing stock of the town for a while. Sometimes we may feel that we are laughing stocks or fools for having accepted the “fool’s gold” of the psychopath’s “love” for us as real.

Just as my sons were unable to distinguish the fool’s gold from the real gold, we are sometimes unable to distinguish what is real and what is not.

Experience, however, is a good teacher if we will listen to it. Having seen real gold dust, it is easy enough to compare the different sparkle of fool’s gold from the real thing. Having been fooled once (or twice or more) by the fake glitter of false love, we can use this knowledge to protect us. As the old saying goes, and it is so true, “not everything that glitters is gold.” As we learn that everyone who says, “I love you” doesn’t really, we learn to pick the real from the false.

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Thank you Ox Drover for sharing this memory and for the great comparison. I agree. It took my oldest sons maturing love and respect for me to actually give me the experience of real gold. Now I can tell the difference between the real and the fake. I have a very loving brother and mother and don’t mean to deminish their value at all. I think as we get older in an abusive environment we grow more likely to have a more selfish love for one another. We are in such need for validation and love that we begin to offer a love based on it earning love. Sort of like as small children we love those we rely on for our needs to be meet. ?. I don’t know but there is something so unselfish about the way he loves and respects me that is gives me a clearness about love that I’ve never known. I can learn alot from him. I hope to offer that kind of love to others and will be looking for that in any future relationship. I hope this is understandable, I mean nothing gross in the comparison to my son…it’s not romantic love of course. It’s real love.
Any way, Thank you very much. This just brought to mind something I hadn’t realized. Now I know what I’m watching for!


I think the difficulty it that there are many people out there that have not experienced real true love. When you have nothing to compare your experience to, it’s harder to know a fake.


I’m 5 days NC; the longest so far.
I’ve taken almost all of the steps that have been suggested so far. Thank you all. I just wanted to let you all know that.

I just keep reading and this was a new article. Ox Drover, I really appreciate the imagery with which you wrote this!

“Sometimes we may feel that we are laughing stocks or fools for having accepted the “fool’s gold” of the psychopath’s “love” for us as real.” This is where I still am.

I actually began a new project the other day and I worked on that most of today so I feel like I did something constructive as well as enjoyable. I experienced almost continuous intrusive thoughts of PoiSoN but I recognized them, and just said, “Yeah” to myself and kept going.

I’m not very good yet at recognizing the verbal tactics and ploys that he uses. I did notice that the way he ends things when I’m not cooperating with him (“Don’t worry about me, I’ll be ok” or, “but I’ll get by”) are appeals for me to feel guilty and sorry for him. The pity ploy. I feel heartless and cruel for not responding to him.

I don’t like to hurt people and this is a major characteristic of mine that he’s trying to manipulate. If I didn’t know the truth of our situation, I would believe him (the poor wounded creature). He is very good at what he does.

My emotions are very conflicted right now.

I ordered “Women Who Love Psychopaths” last week and I sure hope that it arrives soon!

I also see that I can spend too much time “learning” about all of this. It puts my focus on him though in a sort of disguised way. I’ve been focusing more on my children and spending time with them. I have to admit that the last couple of weeks I’ve been too distracted with the realization of falling for the “fools gold” again. Its amazing how much relief from anxiety watching the clouds and making up stories about them brings!! lol

He drove by I don’t know how many times when I was outside playing with the kids. Then sent me an email (though I didn’t read it until later). I’ve received more than 20 “Goodbye” letters, notes, text, etc. this week. I was thinking that I should show it to you. Okay, I’m going to do that but just remove the names. (I guess I don’t need to mention that this is not quite an account & his compassionate actions are exaggerated a bit. LOL)

Yes, I did send a very mean text, two of them. The last 2 things that I said to him were horrible.

“hey, i dont know why im writin you but i know well never talk again so im sayin goodbye. i cant tell you my feeling right now cause there are no words. the only thing i can say is after time ill forget the preserve, the meetins at the ramp, the star the you kissin my chain and sayin goodnight to me even though i wasnt there the day in wesp palm bch or the day i rubbed you for hours when you were in pain and lots of other things. ill remeber the last phone all the text messages and the im’s which were beyond cruel. i used to think we were one hear one mind soulmates and best friends. i know now were not. i always said i aint like nobody and i aint. were not the same cause i could NEVER do what you did to me. not even to someone i hate. im not yellin at you im just sayin. if we were the same id do that to you back but i cant i just cant. i was never embarassed bein with you never felt shame it was so comfortable but i dont want to put into word the text you said about me and****and now im embarrased and ashamed. i know what you think of me and how you made fun of me and i cant look you in the eyes and not feel ashamed again. well you said you drove a wedge and you did right through my heart. every time i saw you today my heart dropped i wanted you to talk to me but i knew i couldnt talk back i just cant. i could go on for hours but whats the use. you cant unring a bell right? just wanted you to know in a million years you never know how i feel right now. guess cause i trusted you and let you in further than anybody i ever knew.thats my faoult i had the right intention just the wrong person. i want you to know i wish you no tears, no sorrow, no sadness and no pain. i hope someday i could forgive you i really do but aw you know. good bye *****”

I know that there are several common strategies he’s using here to get to me, I just don’t know what they are. I think if it makes me feel like I need to talk to him or respond to him in any way then it must be a ploy of some kind. He sounds so hurt and I sound so horrible. Is this normal guys? Is this what you all go through??

I sure hope that Witsend is okay. My prayers are with you and your son.

Actually, my prayers are with you all.


I don’t think I should have posted that letter. OOOPS!! I was not thinking ahead there.

What I was hoping for was that someone could help me identify the tactics so that I can begin to recognize them for what they are and not fall for them over and over.

I just don’t want to do this again!!


ROTFLOL!! OH SOO TYPICAL! Are you sure you weren’t with my exP?? LOL. Did you ever read “the campfire of my love?”
I posted it here for everyone to see. LOL! It was my exP saying the same things to me as yours did to you.

He is trying to set the mood in your mind of a sad story of starcrossed lovers. That’s how he begins, with goodbye.
Then he must remind you of all the “good times”. That’s to soften you up. Then he throws a quick little dagger: he’s going to forget the good times, but he’ll remember those mean text messages you sent to hurt him.

He says: i could NEVER do what you did to me.
BULL F*CKING SH*T, HE DID WORSE, MUCH MUCH MUCH WORSE. Sorry for yelling but my exP used the exact same words. These words, mean one thing: he is laughing as he types them. He is soooo amused with himself. Because he knows exactly what he is and what he’s done, and his words are the funniest joke he can think of. To accuse you of what he did is hilareous to him.

when he says: guess cause i trusted you and let you in further than anybody i ever knew
He is actually talking about how he conned YOU into letting him in further than anybody you ever knew.

Yes, the common strategies you are noticing are : the pity ploy, projection and camoflauging himself as a normal human being. Notice that he does not talk about your feelings? Notice that he doesn’t approach the horrible things he did to you? All of this is like a movie being directed for an audience. All glitter,no gold.


Thanks Skylar! I didn’t think that I was alone here.

Projection and camoflauging, huh? I wasn’t getting that but I knew it was something; I could “feel” that there was more going on here than “Goodbye”. I’m finally picking up on some of the pity plays because of how I feel when I hear it.

I was wondering about that ” I NEVER could” thing too. He wages psychological warfare, baits me and sets me up and then says that one seemingly onocuous thing that I blow up to. Its like, “Wow! What’s wrong with you? All I said was . . . etc.”

P.S. Don’t believe him LOL

Pizza’s here now and the night’s for fun.


Oxy, you’ve really made me think – AGAIN! Thanks for this article.

I realized I could say now what love is not:

It does not make you walk on egg shells and feel braced for the next blow to fall; it does not make you feel stupid and worthless; it does not make you feel guilty for feeling happy (or for anything you feel); it does not make you feel you’ve failed if all life’s problems haven’t been solved, and the other person has been inconvenienced. It does not make you feel ugly physically, emotionally, or spiritually; it does not tear down your accomplishments or mock your vulnerabilities. It does not make you doubt your worth as a human being.

It’s still hard for me to say what love is, and I realized I saw it in action the other day:

An older couple were walking in the park ahead of me on the trail, and she dropped her cane. She said, “That was dumb,” and he said, “No, Honey; that was an accident.” Then he led her over to a bench and took her hand. “Anyway, now we get to sit here for a minute and appreciate the day.” He spoke to her with great kindness, respect, and acceptance, and you could see the trust and gentleness in their interaction. He even gently cued her not to be harsh with herself (she’d called herself “dumb”).

When you see it, it’s so obvious: two people who love and value themselves and each other. I realized that I can bring love — the real gold — into my life right now, today, by treating myself with respect, gentleness, and acceptance. More than ever, I believe we teach people how to treat us by the way we treat ourselves.

If you watch a snail, you’ll notice they leave a little slime trail behind them:. You can look at what’s left behind when you’re around n/ps and see the unmistakable “slime trail” left by these destructive, entirely self-involved people. While N/p’s are good at what they do (they’re great mimics, great at pretending), real love is unmistakable — and they don’t get it. Real love is constructive and leaves good things in its wake: stronger people and healthy relationships.

My hope is that in allowing myself to dig deep into the real thing, I won’t be fooled by fool’s gold again.



“Slime trail”…I like it.
And, we all know that S/N/P’s definitely leave THAT.

“Slime Trail” = EVIDENCE (at least for some of us).


Skylar: I can’t find the “campfire”. I ran a search and got no results. Do you recall where you posted it?


Hi to all

I very rarely post here but have been reading Lovefraud Blogs for 5 years in recovery form an 8 year expereience with a Sociopath.

Part of my recovery was obtaining an Assistant in Nursing Certificate to work with the aged and disabled. This allowed me to see that there were people far worse off than me.

I then decided to enter a counselling degree at the beginning of the year. The reason for this is I could not find a counsellor in my time of need who knew anything about Sociopaths. I ended up teaching my psychologist. I will one day whenn completed my counselling degree continue with studies on Psychology to become a Psychologist and specialise in thories or narcissists, socipoaths and psychopaths.

Two day ago I received i think the best news I have ever received on a personal level other than hoping my ex had gone to jail for fraud lol.

I received a High Distinction mark of 92% at university in Applied Psychology. I am not a sociopath lol but I sure am proud of myself.

I am letting you all know this because I understand the recovery process is a long and painful journey. However there is hope for eveyone on Lovefraud. Through sheer determination from a near death expereience of a Sociopath I managed to turn the most negative and destructive experiences in my life into the most positive. I just want you all to know and appreciate the painful journey ahead can actually be the most worthwhile. This is not something I could have written 5 years ago. I can now also say my experience with the S turned out to be a blessing in disguise up until now.

I think I will continue to read Loveraud for the rest of my life I have learnt so much on here.

I am with all of you on your journey of healing. One of the quotes I use mostly in my life today was one I oringinally found on Lovefraud (im sorry i cant remember who wrote it). “A little stumble is not a complete wipeout or fall”. Infering that I like most of you continued with contact off an on over the years till finally no contact. All the time keeping in mind that quote.

My blessings are with you all in your jouney of self growth and the recovery process. It is an unfortunate but necessary process to go through. Please keep in mind although it may be hard to see at present, the journey is actually a worthwhile one.

Oxy, thanks for a wonderful gentle lesson.

“I was thinking about “fool’s gold,” in terms of false things that glitter and mimic “the real thing” but are, in truth, worthless. A psychopath’s claims of loving us, their claims that they care for us, are “fool’s gold,” because in fact, they don’t have the capacity to love or care.”

It reminded me of the warning, “If it looks too good to be true, it probably is.”


Ox another good read – thank you..Harmony I have seen your name here before , thanks for sharing your JOY with us …Betty that was a wonderful post and I laughed out loud when I read about the slime trail – I just about have all the slime trails cleaned up –


Hello Harmony, (And Cherre)

Thanks for chiming in Harmony. You must be one of the 1st readers of LF! Congratulations on your honors in school! Truly!

You are in a position to understand these disorders far more than any collegue that is just reading about them in a book. Good luck with your path toward higher learning. I am doing the same with my Sociopath/Bad Man experience. I am working on my Masters of Social Work and then.. further down the road, I will strive for the LCSW. Maybe we can open a practice together… or travel and consult. :O) Imagine.

Your post provided the perfect contrast between you, further down the road of recovery, with Cherre, just breaking in her walking shoes.

BTW, Cherre, perfectly wonderful that you posted that letter. It reminds me of when I knew something was wrong with the Bad Man and his communication that seemed to tie me into knots.. but.. I didn’t know what it was. I found it difficult to describe but I was always unnerved and upset and defending myself. It was exausting! Your example reminded me of what I have learned and I am sure that out there is a reader silently nodding… *this helped me too*.. but doesn’t want to post. Hi Reader! We see you!

Your example was perfect and it gave another reader the opportunity to walk you through it… the patterns and the manipulations are so classic and eventually… quite boring!

Ho hum.. another Sociopath reading aloud from his Sociopath Handbook. How boring. HAHA!

Thank God for what I have learned here. Thank God!

I am strangely thankful for my lessons from the Bad Man. I am doing things with my life now that I never would have done if it wasn’t for the trainwreck he cause in my life… and I never let myself forget… I chose to ride that train long after I sensed danger. There are many lessons in that too and I haven’t missed them.

We are smarter, wiser, stronger for having gone through these experiences.. all of us.


Oxy, thank you for the great post and sharing your memories with your young sons.

I remember similar memories with my sons when they were about the same age and discoverd fools gold…I remember thinking back then that the enourmous love I felt for them was like pure gold… and now thanks to the visualization of your post I can see that like a child I am desperatly wanting to beleive that what I have is real gold when he sais ILU, but in reality, it’s only fools gold that I have. The glitter and shine wont last forever, nor will the value, it’s only make believe….to play with for now…for as long as I can deni it’s not real gold.


Hi harmony, congrats and thanks for making time in your life for helping humanity. As I live my life and see the horrible p’s on every side of me, I can still look on the community of LF and say, WOW! there they are, the super heroes. These are the good ones that make life worth living. I don’t have to turn into a P and I don’t have to kill myself.

Now all that’s left to do is move in together, so we can enjoy great people ALLLLLL the time. 🙂


I can’t find the campfire of my love letter. maybe someone else can remember where I posted it. LF makes it difficult to find previous posts but I think that may have been intentional, so that a crazy stalker can’t easily find one person’s posts.


Thankyou for your response and congratulations it was sincerely appreciated. I am sure you will well succeed in you Masters and I wish you well with it. It is my belief that only people who have actually dealt with the NSP’s actually “understand” how difficult the process can be to recover.
Thankyou again. I remember your comment along the lines of “some old man is sitiing in his back yard thinking of you right now”. You are are very sweet and sympathetic to others.
Thankyou also.

Please dont get me wrong I have my occassional thoughts like today I typed a letter not yet sent to the S. Saying I am now “a whole not a hole”. I remember when I first joined love fraud i wrote to Donna I was suicidal with guilt driven by the S. I found Without Conscience by Dr. R Hare a book I read, read and highlighted over the 5 years, which really helped. In the end i “actually got it” he didnt love me because he cant love me. that is sad in itself (I consider, imagine a life with no feeling at all), no good, no bad, no indifference. I actually feel some empathy for him but no sympathy.

I will continue to read all posts here as I have done for years I will understand your desperation, anger, rage, pain, hurt, suffering and all the other emotions you will go through in the process. However I will watch all of you grow here on Lovefraud reclaiming your self esteem, dignity, love, sanity and most especially peace and happiness within yourselves.

To Donna and everyone on Lovefraud thankyou and to those going through the process of recovery, recovering takes time and it is a process you need to go through. Love and big hugs to you all x


That was beautiful Harmony… (I just love the screen aemes people have here.)

I have been lucky enough to find a therapist that for some reason, understands the place I am in with my recovery and we have been able to have great conversations about what I have learned, how I apply my lessons, and also, how I have reached a stuck place.

I used to be so trusting.. and so naive. I miss that part of me… there are things we don’t want to know about in the world.. but once you know.. well, you know! What else is there to say?

I too am so grateful for this healing place.

Also, I am thankful to my friends that took me in when I really didn’t have anywhere to go. If it weren’t for them, I wouldn’t be where I am right now. They didn’t understand what I was going through but the knew it was something big.

They understood that they didn’t understand… and they wanted to help me anyway.

Have a wonderful day everyone and don’t forget to smell the roses and do a little something nice for yourself.

And if you are struggling with no contact, keep trudging forward. I know it’s hard but you can do it and it really is the only way to clear your mind of a most toxic experience.

Love from AlohaTraveler……………E


Hi harmony: Hello to you and congratulations on your new insights and accomplishments! I was very touched by your post, particularly your comment about finding some good out of the bad relationship experience, and now being able to use that new-found wisdom both personally and professionally.

I too have experienced a similar outcome — with stronger personal boundaries than I’ve ever had before, not just with the ex, but also with family, friends and colleagues through my business encounters.

Feels good not to have the weight of the world on my shoulders, especially since I’ve always been a responsible person since childhood — and felt I had to “do right” by all.

I maintain my values/integrity for the most part, but now I also hold others accountable and do not feel guilty when I say no, set boundaries and say goodbye to people who do not deserve the best from me.


Hi Folks . Great little story but I have been thinking about something that has had me a little puzzled for quite a while . It goes like this . Since my encounter with a pschopath , we broke up about 18 months ago , I have noticed that I am in a state of hyper awareness . Now I have read a little about this apparent change of consciousness but am wondering about what exactly is going on in order for this to come about and will it ever subside or am I stuck with it for ever. Being hyper aware I am sure has got something to do with the survival instinct and with what I know about psychopaths and how I seem to attract them like flies I am always on the look out for them , whether they be male or female . I am a heterosexual male so avoiding the female ones is to hopefully avoid the emotional turmoil that my psychopathic X put me through . Avoiding the male ones is to hopefully avoid a physical encounter that may be detrimental to my physical self . What I believe is that I can basically see pschopaths , as in instantly. I am sure that I am not infaliable , but even the smart ones I can figure out fairly quickly upon having a conversation with them . One of the things that is particularly bizarre is that if I am talking to someone I am particularly aware of their hand movements . Also there other things like how people walk or how they stand in fact all facits of body language . It is as if my subconscious has been tuned into all the aspects that make up psychopaths . It has become instinctive in that I do not even consciously realise sometimes that I am observing . So whats the problem you may ask . Well , being in this hyper aware state can make other people even normal ones uncomfortable . I would appreciate any input or perceptions any of you have on this subject


This reminds me of a song by ” the Only ones”

All that glitters is not gold and even serpents shine….


Quest, words are the red flags for me. I would love to sit around with you and play “spot the sociopath” LOL, we could have a great time! I feel like I can smell narcissism from miles away. I knew the balloon boy was a hoax from the first moment I heard about it.

But I hope that you aren’t confusing the N-supplies with the N’s since we have some similarities: we like excitement and are gregarious and emotional. A true sociopath is a liar, everything about them is like the serpent in the garden of eden. They will mirror you. They are hard to resist. They illicit emotion just like infants do. They do it without even trying.

My policy with suspected sociopaths is to give them rope and let them hang themselves. This means simply letting things follow their natural course while being fully aware to watch for signs. Definitely not letting your emotions get involved but don’t be standoffish either. I think that this will allow you to interact with all people in the same way, until the point where the P reveals him/her self.

I attract sociopath’s like bees to honey too. So, usually, if they are attracted to me, I KNOW, it’s a sociopath! LOL!

What is it about your mannerisms that you think is making everyone nervous around you. Do u have shifty eyes?


Dear quest
this link may help you understand your hyperawareness. I have found that understanding something actually helps me to deal with the matter at hand.


I just want to say that finding this site has saved my life. I know that I am not mad, and that I am not alone and that means everything to me.

Thank you.


super chic

agnezz, hi, glad you found the site and hope you post again!!


Hi skylar
can you tell me more about the mirroring thing and Harmony thanks for the link . I am not suicidal but there was some interesting observations on the site and explanations that I will have to think about . And Skylar I do not have shifty eyes that I am aware of . Being hyper alert does have its advantages however it can also be a bit of a pain as sometimes I find myself getting sick of it . I sometimes go hiking in areas where I know there could be grizzily bears and actually the concept of running into one of them hardly bothers me at all . Running into a psychopath is a different story . When I do part of my consciousness seems to kick into high gear . I guess its a kind of defense mechanism of some kind . I also find psychopaths quite fascinating as well so when I do run into one I find myself studying them. I guess what that is , is the desire to understand what makes them tick and to figure out what their origin is . Are they really human at all or are there perhaps 2 human species inhabiting this planet and interbreeding .



I think the fascination with P’s is the hallmark of intelligence and also it forces enlightenment as you dance with the devil in an almost hypnotic trance, much like a mouse under the gaze of a cat, or a rabbit frozen in the glare of headlights!

I love my cats. They are cold and ruthless when it comes to a mouse. Their usual kindhearted loving natures turns into an innocent glee as they play with the mouse (torture and conscience less joy at inflicting pain) No matter how much I scold them, take the mouse off them, scream and shout at them…they just look at me like the P that used to shadow my life, a look of ‘what is wrong with you? I’m only torturing something…you are crazy’

Psychopathy is interwoven intricately throughout nature yet when it comes to a human being displaying these traits we get terribly hurt. As a mouse to the cat…you have to get away, and stay away or end up torured and played with by a conscience free disordered person who really hasn’t a notion he/she is doing anything wrong and is puzzled what all the fuss is about.



I love this:

“my policy with suspected sociopaths is to give them rope and let them hang themselves. This means simply letting things follow their natural course until the point where the P reveals him/her self”

The best strategy to let them finish with themselves….

I have done that not aware of what I was doing…but it worked…

I did not have to open my mounth or to lift a finger….just gave him the rope and let him go…..when the rope became tight around his neck he tried to use the elastic (to come back to me) but I was no longer there…I had climbed to a higher ground of self protection by pretending to be content and not interested on his activities.


Hi Quest,
Mirroring is when they take on your values, your habits, your preferences. They become like you so that you think they are your soulmate. They do this to someone who has a very strong sense of self.
My subconscience picks up on a P faster than I do. Sometimes, I’ll realize later that I’d seen a P, but did not realize it at the time. I was hypervigilent BEFORE I knew I was with a P, now that I know what to look for and what they are, I guess I’m not quite as hypervigilent, but I’m not sure.

To spot a P, just look for the person with infantile characteristics: needs lots of attention, selfish, selfcentered, envious, lies a lot.

But you still haven’t told me what is it about you that makes people aware of your hyperalertness? How does it show?

As far as what makes them tick: it is fear. an overwhelming fear from their childhood, that they learned to suppress by being fearless. Shame that they learned to suppress by being shameless. They feel that they aren’t loveable unless they trick you into loving them, but then they hate you for forcing them to trick you into loving them. You should have loved them unconditionally for themselves – except that they never gave you the chance because they never showed their true self, since they were too ashamed of it. And they feel this way toward all people, not just their “mark”. They envy everyone because they don’t have an identity, just a veneer. Therefore mimetic desire is still at work: they want what everyone else has and they want to be what everyone else is.

These are all infantile characteristics.

Ox Drover

Hi, guys, thanks to all of you for your responses to my little story!

I read with interest all your comments, but just got back from a 3 day camp out with my living history group on the bank of the Arkansas river in Ft. Smith, AR and I am so bone-weary tried I have declared a HOLIDAY today to recover from all my FUN!

The past two weekends (prior to this) ahve been stressful for me and this weekend was a wonderful change and a chance to see some really great long-term living-history friends, explain history to children and adults who were interested in seeing “real” history —-

but I had one TERRIBLE thing haoppen—I LOST THE LIARS’ CONTEST for the FIRST time ever, and I told one of my most wonderful stories! The man who beat me was a 75 or 80 year old man (I am sure he cheated and there wasn’t a word of falsehood in his story!) but I was gracious to him about it—and even though I had PAID THE JUDGE and then I still lost, I think the whole thing was RIGGEd, otherwise I would have WON as I usually do, sooooo I am going to pay TWO of the judges next time to make sure I WIN, as I am ENTITLED to do! LOL

Looks like cherrie is doing well on starting NC–CONGRATULATIONS, but next time, I recommend you do NOT READ his communications and whatever–DO NOT RESPOND!!! YOU ARE ON YOUR WAY!!!!! ((((HUGS))))


Oxy, welcome back.
I’m soooo sorry to hear about your tragic loss in the Liars’ Contest. If anyone is entitled to winning, it would be you.
Next year, you must remember not only to BELIEVE your own lies, but also to FALL IN LOVE with your lies. By following this advice you are sure to win next year. In the meantime, we will simply just tell everyone that you actually WON the contest, but since it is a LIARS’ contest, your win must include the lie that you lost. Right?

super chic

Oxy, good to hear you had such a nice weekend, but what a crushing defeat in the contest!! Yes, next year you must do WHATEVER possiblet to win!!!

Ox Drover

Dear Skylar,

OF COURSE I REALLY WON!!! Who is their right mind would vote against the saintly person that I am!!!!??? LOL

In truth, I usually DO win that contest, as I usually have some really GOOD outrageous story, and I also “act out” the story line, using different voices for the different personages in the story, but the old man this year really did BEAT THE SOCKS OFF ME. He was a HOOT, though I did have several people come up and tell me they voted for me! It really was fun!!! I like to make people laugh! In another life I will be a stand up commediene! (is that how you spell it?) LOL

Actually today I am working on NOT FEELING GUILTY to send my son out to start unloading and unpacking (we took 4 tents,–I was offering 2 big ones for sale-) our clothing, cooking gear —all cast iron—blankets and so oon, so there is a big truck load of stuff to unload, but we did do well in our “living history yard sale” (we call it a “trade blanket” sale) and sold a ton of cast iron ware, dutch ovens etc. and then used that money to buy some leather we needed, and a Montana Peak hat for me from one of the hatmakers there. I have admired his hats for years but couldn’t afford one, so now I OWN ONE (it doesn’t take much to amuse me) a hand made to perfection unique, full beaver felt hat made just for me!!!! I spent a lot of time watching him make hats from a circle of felt through putting in the sweat band. He has done this for 30+ years, traveling around the country. I have known him for about 15 years and he always adds so much to an event. He is definitely a UNIQUE individual. That’s what I love about the living history reenactors though, the ones with great skills are always so bright and entertaining.

It was such a wonderful thing for me to “get out amonog them” and have such a good time and I NEEDED IT. Plus, I came home with a pocket full of money and only half as much stuff as we went with! I’m getting lazy and am no longer going to cook for 50-100 people at these events so I don’t need 10 dutch ovens. “Them there thangs is heaver-n-ell”

super chic

HOW did you find it? I can never find anything around here.

kim frederick

Dearest Oxy, I was wondering where you were. It sounds like a hoot, I love to camp. I have very special memorys of camping at Pacific Beach, and rising at the butt-crack of dawn, (low tide) to go out and dig razor clams. My mother then made the most incredable clam chowder over a coleman stove on top of a pic-nic table…………….:)

They told me my first camping trip was when I was 5 weeks old. No wonder it’s in my blood. But I digress. I still try to make clam chowder like my moms’, but with no access to razor clams, it’s just not the same. I’ll bet you don’t know what a gooey-duck is…..

I am making some super, super hot chili with three varieties of fresh peppers in it. It smells good. What do you put in yours that makes it special? How do you add your signiture?

Don’t feel too bad about losing your contest. Remember practice makes perfect, and if at first you don’t sucseid, try try again. (just like I did in try to spell suc…well, never mind. LOL.

super chic

google: lovefraud skylar campfire

Ox Drover

Dear Kim,

Yea, I had a wonderful time and I sure did need it after a couple of weeks of dealing with our friend’s drama queen wife so that my sons could have fun with HIM. LOL They both know I “sacrificed” a lot for them and our friend by hanging out with her in order for them to have fun with him, and he is quite ill (heart problems) so we may not have too many more opportunities and I don’t want to let HER spoil his and their enjoyment of each other so I was upfront with the guys about what a “sacrifice” I was making for them. LOL So son C stayed home and farm-sat while son D went with me to be my “indentured servant” and another young man friend of his showed up as well to be my second young man to “boss around”—-lift that box, tote that bale! LOL Oh, the JOYS of old age and decrepitude! NOT!!!!

On top of everything else we ran into (unexpectedly) some of our favorite camp mates from the last 15 years and so it was a big “family reunion” as well as meeting new friends. I made contact with another woman (a bit younger but not much) who camps with her horse (we didn’t have livestock at this one) and we are making plans to do a horse-treck in one of the state parks that is equine friendly and even though we will not be demonstrating for the public, we will dress “period” and camp “period” etc. so it will be fun to refine our attire and accutrements and get our “act” together!

It is “funny” (in some ways and in others not) that in our living history group one of the “leaders” is a very N-ish and I believe Psychopathic man who is SO manipulative and because of his manipulations etc. he has driven away many of our even founding members, and many others as well. there has been some talk for years about splitting off another group and I heard more of that this weekend, as because this man is so controlling a great deal of the REAL history, such as “draft animals” are not welcomed at events where they would be very appropriate and instead of being the real history that we are SUPPOSED to be displaying, a “citified” pseudo-histroy that is not true is being displayed instead, and I realize that large animals are NOT appropriate at some events becausxe of the facilities available, but even in ones that it is MOST APPROPRIATE AT he is causing problems because of his specific and very apparent dislike for ME because I have never been one to knuckle down to his high-handed rule.

I shouldn’t chortle I guess (but I will anyway! You know me!) one of his “henchmen” that has been a problem for years with outlandish and even dangerous behavior (I had him prosecuted by the law for pointing a very REAL muzzle loader at me at a park event and threatening to shoot me—he was arrested and tried) anyway, this guy that was his “henchman” was arrested for being in the house with his mother’s body—and she had been DEAD at LEAST TWO WEEKS.

So anyway, I have been vindicated by this guy’s further outrageous behavior besides pointing a gun at me. LOL

In addition, after the gun incident with his henchman, I was elected to the board of directors for a two year term and so was a constant thorn in the side of Mr. Control, excuse me DOCTOR CONTROL, he does have a PhD you know—-piled higher and deeper! LOL

It is amazing how, like Kathleen said, when you recognize these people doing their “control dance” or what ever their agenda is, that you can DEAL with these people without getting your EMOTIONS involved and just go for whatever goal you have. I no longer even get mad about this PhD jerk, but just sort of do my own thing, and if he prevents me from being able to attend an event, no big deal. He informed me recently that I couldn’t bring “livestock” (goats and a dog to herd and milk the goats) to an event that I have gone to for YEARS with the oxen which were 2,000 pounds each and which the parkk people welcomed, vs the 100 pounds of the “dangerous” goats! LOL I simply e mailed him back and said “NO problem, I was just doing this because the kids always like the goats and dog herding, and the milking demo, but it was a FREEBIE and I DO have so many where they are PAYING me to come that losing a freebie is no big deal, I’ll just do the PAID ONES.”

I do several demos that I get paid pretty handsomely for that HE does for FREE and doesn’t get paid (the same shows) and it rankles his nerves that I am so well received and ALSO paid when he isn’t. so it is a tit-for-tat thing, except the difference is, he grinds his teeth over my success, and I could give a rat’s behind about the few events he manages to keep my critters out of. The shame of it all though, is that the kids don’t get to do a hands on thing with something most of them will never get a chance to see in RL.

One show I have done continually (except the year my husband died) has about 400 kids that we demo too, and there are about 15 different demonstrations, including Dr. Control, and each kid is required to write a letter to their FAVORITE demonstrator and I have never received less than 150 letters out of the 3-400 kids, usually I get a bit over 50%.

The ONLY thing that has changed, is that I NOW DO NOT GRIND MY TEETH AT THIS GUY’S CONTROL TACTICS….I can’t change that, but I CAN change my REACTION to it. And, I am MUCH happier since I have changed MY reactions.


Dear quest

Sorry I should have written it under hyperactivity which is under Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (sorry i was not infering you were suicidal). According to the site hyperactivity is a sympton of post traumatic stress disorder which is classified as a psychiatric injury on the site. Makes for some interesting reading.


Thanks Harmony I will check that out . Skylar , I think the thing that shows my hyper awareness is something to do with an aparent ability to see straight into a persons soul so to speak . I do this without really realising it . If I happen to be looking at a psychopath they get angry , if I am looking at what I believe is a normal person I detect an uneasiness in their expression . Its almost as if even normal people don’t want their inner self seen . Psychopaths on the other hand , realising that I can see inside go into attack mode . I have been able , on occasion , to freak out a psychopath as they are not use to people seeing straight through the mask in an instant . Of course the other thing that can happen is that I end up freaking myself out . It appears to be a two street . If I can see them they can also see me , seeing them .


What is it you are seeing? What does the P soul look like?

Also, you can throw them off by acting nice. They can’t tell when you are acting. Even the best of them are constantly looking for a cues to your emotions so they can mirror you. Just give them some fake emotions from your reservoir of real emotions. Real people might pick up on phoniness so unless you are sure it’s a P, don’t be fake, it will make you look like a P.


Hi Skylar ,
Faking is not something I do well . I cannot even brew up a fake smile for a photo that looks half genuine . The only photos of me that look any good are the ones where I don’t know they are happening . My best defense that I have discovered so far is to criticise them . That just drives them insane . My wit is not bad also so I can sometimes get them with that . Psychopaths may be very cunning but at the same time they can be quite stupid . It is this stupidity that is my defense against them . It is as if they have no common sense . This lack of common sense can give them away as they do not seem to be able to think things through like normal people . What else ?


Skylar , the psychopaths soul is dark . One time when I realised that my X was a Pschopath I told her so and also told her that she might as well quit with all the games and the confusing conversation as I now understood what it was all about . I had just read a book called “the psychopath next door” . She gave me a look I had never seen on a human being before . I don’t believe in God but I now know where the devil is hiding .


hi quest,
yeah I know the look. My xP gave it to me a couple of times. One time was when I told him his snoring sounded like something from the exorcist. LOL! the look was chilling. But now that I know what it was, (confusion and fear on a psychopath) it is no big deal. He actually believes that he has close ties to the devil.
In truth the devil wouldn’t bother with him because he has taken his own hand down the road to hell. The devil is looking for people that need to be tempted, not those who go willingly. 🙂 The sociopaths all go willingly and the devil is free to find an innocent victim. It cracks me up how delusional they are. They need to feel important because I think deep down they know they are just infants that need their diaper changed.


So skylar are psychopaths born or made . I think I am on the side of the genetic predisposition . And how come the women psychopaths seem to be all good looking , or is it just that, the male in me is attracked to the beautiful ones . Where I live I know of about 6 psychopathic women . If you lined them all up side by side you would think they were all sisters . The one that I lived with did not look anything like her actual sisters . The other thing that I have mentioned before is physical deformities . Two of the women above , the one I lived with and one that nearly got me into all kinds of trouble both had deformed feet . Their toes splayed outwards so that they did not line up with the rest of their feet . weird huh . Needless to say I am always looking at womens feet when ever I get a chance


My opinion is that the psycho is born with the ability to feel very intensely. Then something happens to them which hurts them and they can’t deal with it emotionally because they are children. So they choose to develop coping strategies for not feeling. Once they succeed with that strategy, they hang on to it for the rest of their lives. It’s old, childish and out of place but it becomes automatic until they can longer distinguish it from who they are.
I’ve never heard the foot theory. but I’ll keep my eyes open. LOL! But my xP did have bizarre claw-looking feet. I also agree with you that narcissists can appear quite attractive even if they are actually ugly. It’s possible that they just know how to present themselves better because they are more self-conscious of appearances.


The last 12 or so pics of my daughter on facebook, she has the same fixed phoney smile on her face which doesnt reach her eyes.She has very red lipstick on, and is always in black and red, ie, red dress,black jacket. She looks so “posey, and phoney. I NEVER saw her like this when she used to visit with her kids. She hardly spoke to me, spent her whole time in my home buried in a magazine, grungy clothes, no make up. Its like I wasnt worth dressing nice for, or worth talking to. I put up with it, so as to see my G.Kids, and basically waited on her, I actually felt sorry for her as I knew she worked hard. So, I felt the least I could do was to take over and give her a break, cook her a nice meal, bring her cups of coffee, etc.
She hardly spoketo me,, or smiled. Now when I see these facebook pics, I wonder if its the same person. The pics give me the chills, as they are so phoney and plastic looking . her ex husband says she looks like shes made out of wax, and they give him the shivers,too.She looks like what she is,–a vampire. we are all food for her, we are prey. She gives nothing back, no emotion, nothing. She still manages, so far, to reel in new victims.At 45, she still looks good, beautiful even,but no emotion in that face, it scares me. Love, Gem.

Ox Drover

Dear Quests—“are psychopaths born or made?”

There is clear SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that the answer is BOTH born and made.

There are several studies of the workings of the hormonal and chemical workings of the brain that they don’t have the recptors necessary for Oxytocin (the bonding hormone) and identical twin studies (where the children are genetically identical) raised apart in two completely different environments are much more likely to be both psychopaths if one of them is. So there is great evidence that there are large genetic components, yet environment also plays a part in the “production” of a psychopath.

Testosterone also seems to play a large part in the condition as more men exhibit this than women, however, there are still researches going on about why men seem to be “diagnosed” more often than women.

There are many good scientific articles here and on the internet where GENUINE and VALID research projects are going on about this disorder.

Dr. Leedom has also done research and complied research information and her book “Just Like his Father” is available here in the LF store. If you are truly interested in this, you hve a wealth of scientific information available for you to study.

Ox Drover

Dear Gem,

Can I make a suggestion to you my dear? Don’t even LOOK at her facebook page, that is a sort of “breaking NC” when you follow wht they are “up to” and how they are faring.

Cut out all thoughts of how they fare, what they are doing, I used to worry 24/7 about my P son’s physical and emotional welfare in prison, and how he was in danger from other criminals….and he took some bad beatings and received lilttle medical care etc. but you know what? I no longer worry, but part of it is because I don’t want to know about him. He is DEAD to me.

Except for here on LF I don’t even talk about him anymore, I don’t WONDER about him or how he fares.

Separating ourselves emotionally from them, like they are “dead to us” does help in decreasing the grief. I actually had a little “memorial service” for him, like I buried him. I even got rid of all photos of him after about 11 or 12 years old, back when he was my beloved son, before he morphed into satan himself. I don’t even want to remember that MAN that is a toxic stranger to me. I miss the young child, the bright funny and loving little boy, but that “man” who has his organs, that man is NOTHING TO ME.

Maybe that would help you if you could love and mourn that lovely little child, but disassociate youself from that evil woman who is a STRANGER to you. That lost child will always be prescious, but that woman who is so evil and toxic…she is a stranger to you. See if you can separate them, and hve good memories of the child who is now gone (we all “lose” our babies when they grow up, but we form different relationships with the adults they become. I still miss the little boy my wonderful adult son C WAS, but the man he has become is a good friend). (((hugs))))


My father refers to my X as persona non grada
“He is dead to you” he says.

Until he pulls another stunt or makes a scene.

Last week he said me as I said “goodbye, I love you” to my son. “No you don’t!”

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