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Bad vibes from a workplace psychopath

Lovefraud recently received an e-mail from a reader. Her company had hired a new guy and she was tasked with helping him learn his job. The guy immediately made her feel extremely uncomfortable. Here’s what she wrote:

I can’t look him in the eye or even stand to talk with him. He is very “nice” and has never shown any angry tendencies. I can’t explain my feelings but my intuition tells me to be wary and afraid of him. He exhibits self-important behavior and is glib and overly polite. Just the thought of him makes me shudder.

He’s never given me any concrete reason to dislike him. However when I very first met him, he was too familiar and presumptuous, calling me by my nickname on the first day, which only close friends and family do. He also pestered me to go to lunch with him every single day or would manipulate it so that he’d be alone in the office with me at lunchtime. He never made any type of sexual advances to me, but would ask me off the wall questions that were not work related and that I couldn’t possibly have an answer to; and once offered me $20 to buy myself lunch because I wouldn’t go with him. I reported him to HR twice to get that harassment on record and had his desk moved away from mine. Everyone who comes in contact with him describes him as creepy.

He has a wife and three kids and his wife is rumored to be well off. He is at work on time every day and doesn’t take time off. On the surface he seems to excel in his work but if you look deeper, you’ll see that it’s all shell with not much substance. He appears to excel at his job but some of us have caught him in borderline deceptions at work but I firmly believe he is manipulative and knows exactly what he’s up to. Others don’t detect that; they think he’s a really nice guy who just doesn’t fit in. He acts kind of like the dumb Southern nice guy next door but my intuition screams that there’s a sinister quality about him. Some of us joke about the target on our backs, don’t piss him off, that sort of thing. Dane Cook’s “Creepy Guy at Work” comes to mind.

I’ve done some minimal Internet investigation on him and extensive investigation into the behavior itself but can’t seem to pinpoint it. I have read so many books, including Robert Hare, Martha Stout and Gavin De Becker. A lot of things fit from the sociopath’s profile and your Red Flags page, though some really don’t; he doesn’t exhibit aggressiveness, hatred of authority or anger at work.

The presence and mere thought of this person causes me tremendous physical and mental stress. So I avoid him and his gaze at all costs. But why is this? I’m so curious to know what quality or element he possesses that repels me. I’ve never in my life felt this guarded around another person. Is there a textbook explanation? The experience has caused me to have a deeper look inside myself as I don’t like feeling this way about anyone.

Intuition at work

I congratulated this woman for listening to her intuition. She was receiving abundant warning signs, by her own physical reactions, that there was something wrong with her co-worker.

Read the symptoms she describes: She can’t look him in the eye. She can’t talk to him. She shudders. Her body knows that she is in the presence of evil. Her intuition is telling her that the guy is a predator, and if she is not careful, she will be road kill. The woman’s co-workers even joke about having targets on their backs.

And that gaze that she avoids? It’s probably a predatory stare.

Yet he hasn’t done anything to cause problems. He is not overtly hostile or aggressive. In fact, he is overly polite.

So she asks, is there a textbook explanation?

Range of behaviors

The answer is yes. The explanation is that psychopaths exhibit a range of behaviors, and some are worse than others. If this woman’s co-worker was tested with the Hare PCL-R, his score might be too low to be officially considered a psychopath. That doesn’t mean he is not dangerous.

The common perception of a psychopath, popularized by the media, is a violent, manic-looking serial killer. In a few cases—very few—this is an accurate portrayal. But the vast majority of psychopaths never kill anyone.

Instead, they do things like create problems on the job. As our Lovefraud reader noted, the guy “seems to excel in his work but if you look deeper, you’ll see that it’s all shell with not much substance.”

Psychopaths at work typically get other people to do the work and then take credit, figure out whom they need to brownnose in order to get ahead, and sabotage anyone who gets in their way.

Executive psychopaths

Some psychopaths, ruthless and cutthroat, claw their way to the top, and then turn into tyrants. Dr. Robert Hare and Dr. Paul Babiak wrote a book called Snakes in Suits about psychopaths in the workplace.

Here’s a statistic that knocked my socks off:

Dr. Hare believes that psychopaths make up one percent of the population of North America. (Other people, using different criteria, believe the number is higher.) However, Dr. Hare writes in Snakes in Suits that three percent of corporate executives are psychopaths.

Did you get that? There are three times as many psychopaths among corporate executives as there are in the general population.

So that’s what happens to psychopaths in the workplace. They move into the corner office.

 

Listening to vibes

 

The Lovefraud reader was not comfortable with how she felt about this guy. I think she should be grateful to her intuition for being so vigilant. I also think she should acknowledge herself for listening to the vibes she was picking up.

I feel sorry for the people at her company who “think he’s a really nice guy who just doesn’t fit in.” They will probably find themselves as either victims, or unwitting accomplices, of workplace treachery.

By the way, chapters three and four of Snakes in Suits explains how psychopaths manipulate their victims. It is chilling.


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“She can’t look him in the eye. She can’t talk to him. She shudders. Her body knows that she is in the presence of evil. Her intuition is telling her that the guy is a predator, and if she is not careful, she will be road kill.”

She’s on to something subconsciously and isn’t really even aware of what it is. How many of us who’ve been duped by the S’path does the above quote describe? When mine reappeared from the ether after five years, this is exactly how I behaved. Couldn’t figure it out, either.

At first, it seemed that maybe I’d just been away from dating for too long. Of course, taking it on my own shoulders, like so many of us here do, assuming the “fault” lay inside of us.

I felt…choked. Thought it would get better, in time, being around him more. But it didn’t! I still avoided his stare and gaze, still felt this malevolence when he was so uber-polite and well-mannered. I just thought he was repressed, maybe, or shy or had this big secret sorrowful life-changing event in the time we were apart that he couldn’t discuss, but that consumed his heart and soul.

Ha! He had secrets, alright. Stuff that would probably curl hair! But they weren’t noble or poetic or sad or the least bit loving.

And I couldn’t shake this image of myself slowly becoming a mute, or a mime. Never before have I been at a loss for words, or intimidated by someone’s mere (superficially benign) presence — and here was a guy I thought I loved more than anyone else, ever, whose gaze I could seldom meet and my thoughts would just not come out of my mouth.

Subconscious self-protection. It’s amazing.

My X and I were having lunch one day in the beginning of the relationship. All of a sudden I had this horrible, dreadful, ‘doom and gloom on the horizon’ feeling in the pit of my stomach. I was looking away from him into space, and he noticed it. He said, “what is it? you had a dark look on your face….” I knew what it was. It was my fear of being hurt. But that is the first time it has ever hit me so hard. I rationalized it away in my own mind. Weeks later, it happened again. He noticed it, again. I didnt want to talk to him about it, but he continued to pressure me until I did. I told him I was afraid of getting close and being hurt and losing the friendship. He said, “i thought we already talked about his. I WANT this. I WANT you. As long as we have that ‘open line of communication, even if it doesnt work out, we will always at least remain friends.”

His ‘open line of communication’ conveniently left out the fact he is HIV+.

The feeling of ‘doom and gloom on the horizon’ was dead on.

That was my big mistake. My intuition was telling me, my bad dreams were telling me, but I was waiting for proof – all the time giving him the benefit of the doubt and believing his excuses. My first impression of him was that he had a sense of cruelty and a bitter mouth (I am into face reading). Even his work friends and family kept telling me he was a decent bloke. I gathered all these bits of information and over rode all of my senses. If I had listened to everything I was being shown, I would have ditched him probably after the first 6 weeks and would have saved myself alot of grief.

Dodged-

I can’t believe he’s not in jail.

What he’s doing is tantamount to attempted murder.

I knew noone that knew him. He just moved to town. So, all I had to go on was what he showed me. I knew something didn’t feel quite right the whole time. I knew it wasn’t right. But I let him talk me into believing his love (manipulation) for me. Once we were telling each other what we liked aobut the other. I said all my things about him. He said, “you forgot one thing.” I said, ‘what?”

“I’m LOYAL.”

Some loyality to not tell someone your having sex with that your HIV+.

Once he said, “I’d do ANYTHING for you”, and “I’d never do anything to hurt or disrespect you.”

I have never in my life met anyone that projects themself to be so honest, caring, loyal, and trustworthy- while at the same time- decieving me and putting my life at risk.

It is the most hypocritical, twisted, sickening thing (him) that I have evel dealt with in my life.

Yes, I do know that. I sure do.

Having worked with several psychopaths and seen the devestation that they can do in the work place, to other employees, and even to the companies, I applaud this woman for LISTENING to her intuition.

I worked in a speciality hospital for head and spinal cord injuries once. Our director of nurses moved on to a new place and they were having trouble finding a new one, so took on a woman who was unsure of herself. She hired a psychopath to take her place in her old joy and this P-woman immediately started a campaign that eventually after six months resulted in half the nursing staff leaving (at a time of acute nursing shortage) The rest of us could not believe that no one else higher up saw what was going on, and we hung in for another six months, but eventually, all the nurses from this hospital, some had been there 20 years, left en mase. Only one nurse, who was emmployee health remained. At that point, corporate realized that “something was wrong” and the new DON was fired, the P was fired, and even the hospital administrator was fired, but the place eventually closed because they could not hire enough speciality nurses to replace those that left.

I didn’t realize at that time what was going on, or that this woman was a “typical P” in the work place and had taken advantage of a new director who was unsure of herself.

I have directly and indirectly worked for and with manipulative people, and a few other psychopaths. Some of them actually do a decent “job” in advancing their company, but still leave bodies litered in their wake of people who were “sacrifices” to their power plays.

What does surprise me though, is that so many people don’t detect anything wrong with these people, the “excessive politeness” and at the same time the excessive and uncalled for familiarity do make some people uncomfortable though. But the majority of people don’t “get it” that there is a predator in their midst.

The analogy of Ps being predators is shown in so many real life predatators who disguise themselves among their prey.

Animals who are primarily prey animals (cattle, antelope, rabbits etc) avoid anything that looks directly at them. Their instinct is to run from direct gaze. When I am working my cattle, I make sure not to look directly at the particular animal that I am singling out of the herd, but to watch them from my perpherial vision so that they don’t realize that it is THEM that I am after, otherwise that animal will make every effort to avoid me.

Predator animals also disguise their “look” if they can to appear benign to the designated prey animal. They try to get close enough to strike while appearing not to be direcly targeting that particular animal. They may try to blend in with the surrounding areas, or hide themselves from view of the prey, or move slowly so not to spook the prey, or appear to be after another animal rather than the one they have actually targeted.

In the work place, the predator humans use many kinds of tactics to approach their targets, and to put them off guard. Like the prey animals though, we should not ignore our gut instincts when spotting a predator. If we do it will be to our regret.

I think the socialization processes we are given as children that “there is good in everyone” or that “everyone deserves a second chance” and “it takes two to fight,” “there are two sides to every story” etc frequently put us in the position of ignoring our instincts.

I have also observed that many people who have no malice or guile in their hearts, truly sweet good people, have a total disbelief in the EVIL aspects of anyone else unless they are an ax murderer screaming and swinging an ax at that moment. They become so “nonjudgmental” that their instincts totally die, so that when they are hit blindsided by a P they don’t realize what hit them. Many times, as well I have observed these people being hit again and again, and still hanging stubbornly on to their “there is good in everyone” theory, in spite of the evidence to the contrary.

I remember once my my x and I were talking, and I remember a comment he made about himself, which was actually his mirroring a characteristic of me:

“I’m an open book.”

A book that left out a very important chapter. A chapter that could have killed me.

Here’s a link to a series of FREE articles on Psychopaths:
http://cjb.sagepub.com/content/vol35/issue2/

Psychopaths: What were they like as children?
Research published by SAGE in special issue of Criminal Justice and Behavior
Beginning with the question of whether psychopathy is a stable disorder throughout life, the researchers attempted to trace its development back to its roots. In studying it over time, they found that child/adolescent psychopathy looks quite similar to the adult version but there did seem to be some areas of instability in the young version that could provide hope to those hoping to mitigate it before it’s too late. The articles in the special issue examine many different aspects of psychopathy in the young and over time, including such variables as:

Genetics

Temperament

Parenting styles

Environment

Internal and external symptoms

Peer relations

“By conducting such investigations, possible points of intervention can be pinpointed in an effort to prevent early psychopathic characteristics in youth from leading to persistent deviant behaviors that have severe implications for the individual and society,” write guest editors, Randall T. Salekin and John E Lochman in the introduction. “Although considerable work remains to be done, this special issue serves as a starting point, providing the groundwork for future research in this area.”

###
The special issue of Criminal Justice and Behavior, the official journal of The American Association for Correctional and Forensic Psychology, entitled “Child and Adolescent Psychopathy: The Search for Protective Factors,” and guest edited by Randall T. Salekin and John E Lochman of the University of Alabama, is available at no charge for a limited time at http://cjb.sagepub.com/content/vol35/issue2/.

Ugh! ‘I’m an open book’ – vomit! Oh I know that feeling. Mine would often say ‘I’m a very simple creature.’

It’s like they always say stuff that you wouldn’t need to say if it was true. Like the bizarre ‘I’m a fan of your personality.’ What?!

Dear Holywatersalt,

Thanks for posting those links to the studies…good stuff.

It was only in retrospect that I could look back and see the first signs of psychopathic behavior in my P-son. The first episode that I observed, and thought was “strange” at the time (actually out of character for him) was he got caught stealing from my purse (money and some uncashed checks) at age 11, which he “traded” with another kid at school who had a radio that my son wanted and we couldn’t afford.

When the other child’s parents questioned him about what had happened to the radio they had bought him, he confessed and they called me, and them and their son, my son and I met at my house to “solve the matter”–though they had the check, and the money, and my son had the radio, my son totally DENIED that he had taken the money from my purse or the check, etc. He became very sullen and definant.

That night he ran away from home and got several miles before the search party turned out and found him…he looked me in the eye and told me (still very definant) “You can’t watch me 24 hours a day, I will do it again.” I realized he was right–which scared the heck out of me.

I put him in a private school, and managed to almost get him supervised 24/7–and his behavior improved and I really didn’t have much trouble out of him or “attitude” until he hit puberty at which time he started overt definance, lies, sneaking out at night, etc. without any show of remorse or understanding of the danger he was putting himself and our family in.

By age 17 he was totally out of control, stealing, joyriding, etc. you name it. By 18 he was in prison, by 20 back in prison for murder. He is still in prison. He still NEEDS to be in prison.

His biological brother is ADHD (diagnosed at age 6) but though he was a “challenge” to raise, he has finished college and I am very proud of the man he has become. He is a very caring and empathetic man, totally unlike his brother.

Those articles were very interesting to me. Thanks.

I work with my S – and in the early months when he was doing the cat and mouse game with me -he came across as a very witty, slightly shy/quiet, intelligent, successful man who’d later I found out, had had a bad 22 year marriage and was looking for the right woman to have a long term relationship with now that he was done doing the dating thing for a bit. It took 2 months of his ever so softly – nudging me towards him. Witty little emails, the little looks my way, pulling back and letting me ponder him, and then the subtle ways of luring me in and to my finally consenting to dinner.

The first dinner was a beautiful December evening, dinner out on the town, then to come back to his place for a glass of wine and viewing the Christmas ship parade on the lake below. He’d even rigged up a heater to turn on out on the patio for me to stay warm. He was a gentleman – and I went home after the parade.

Its still a shock for me to think back on this quiet man I met at work, yet see the escalating power and control he took over me while all his lies, cheating and manipulations went on behind my back. He played it all out from Night #1 to work in his direction. I knew there were red flags all along, but his carefully worded reasons and promises pulled me back in time and time again. No more dating at work – Rule #1 and No more ignoring my own intuition. Always operate in the Yellow Zone… cautious.

This is very interesting.

At the last job I had for the County, we inherited a man who transfered over from another department into ours, The Department of Family and Child Service. We heard that our Boss was warned about hiring him but since he was the only person that applied for this internal transfer, he took him.

EVERY SINGLE PERSON in the office had an immediate bodily reaction to this man, who was overly nice. He has completely alienated himself from the entire staff but seems to be completely clueless as to how to fit in. And of course, he is the UNION Rep there as well. He is totally and completely inappropriate in the sensitive environment in which we work and makes our clients very uncomfortable as well. His questions during a training on Sexual Abuse cases were so inappropriate that I saw people visually cringe and shrink in their seats. He took it upon himself to take “notes” which he later distributed to the entire staff and they were also VERY inappropriate with misquotes of people that made them look very bad… quotes taken out of context. It was the weirdest thing I have ever seen. YECH!!! Since his tenure there, very kind people have said, “I HATE this man.” He is terrorizing an entire staff of about 30 people. He is definately a Sociopath.

About that sense we can get in our bodies… I had a job right after I moved back from Maui. I was hired to do sales for a local wellness company. I had known about their products for years and thought it was right up my alley. After I started, I noticed that I got a “hit” off the owner that reminded me of the Bad Man. Then, later, after I found out that the history of this company was that she fired people left and right… the poor lady that was fired right before me (I got the ax too), did a little research and found out that this woman was asked to leave her former employment as a Nurse… (I am wondering if this the same Nurse as the one in the story above) because her colleuges thought she had Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

I remember when I recieved this information, I had an instand and powerful anxiety attack and felt like I would vomit. I figured I must have attracted this woman into my life because I still had not resolved what happened with the Bad Man. By the way.. her initials were J.D. Is she the same nurse as above?

The end of the story… she fired me not too long after on the day that a call came in for my sales territory that would have made me a very large commission. Naturally, she wanted to handle that sale herself.

And lastly, a friend of mine is a preschool teacher and yesterday she atarted telling me she had a child that she didn’t know what to do with. His self portrait was a stick figure like all the other kids which he then scribbled out and wanted the teacher to write, “I HATE MYSELF.” He shows no empathy. (her words.. she described this to me without knowing what a Sociopath is.) She wrote to the parents, who are both therapists, and their response was indignation. This child, younger than 4 years old, has already been kicked out of a PRE-SCHOOL. Now this, I find sad. And my friend is worried because the other children are trying to relate to him by saying, ‘I hate myself too. Wanna play?”

If there is a chance of rehabilitation, a child this young needs massive intervention. Still, I feel bad hating on a small child but my friend said this child’s energy dominates the room.

I know that a diagnosis of Sociopath is not supposed to be applied until the child is 18 or more, at least I think… but don’t they need to get a clue and do something?

OXDOVER,

Does the nurse you speak of have the initials, J.D.?

Wouldn’t that be a trip?

Aloha….. E.R.

My father met my socio step mother at work. He had worked hard to become the manager and she was just another worker. I’m sure she used him for his influence and later so that she could stop working altogether, which she did soon after the marriage. I do not know what other people thought about her at work but I know many of the people who have worked there for a long time and none of them mention her around me.
I really am curious about why she was working there at the time. She was living alone in a different state than her whole family. I would just love to know what she was running from. . .

Reading Galvin Debecker’s The Gift of Fear has changed my life. The book helped me get out of a relationship with a man who exhibited sociopathic tendencies.

I firmly believe in trusting vibes. I had bad vibes about this man running a meditation group at a UU church. I quit giong to the group. Almost a year later I read an article in a church publication about some conflict regarding a registered sex offender attending the church. I went home and checked out the SC Sex offender registry. Guess who was on there?

Even before I knew anything about that man’s history, something about him gave me the creeps. When he was talking about how our society is too symphathetic towards victims, i sensed a lot of anger in his voice. This man had a ph.d and was a member of Mensa.

Aloha, no, she wasn’t the same nurse, but you know I think the “healing professionals” have a higher rate of psychopaths than the general population. I would bet that a study would bear this out.

Metachosis, the “Gift of Fear” is a great book!

OxDrover –

I worked for hospitals and doctors for years – I am very interested to hear your perspective. I couldn’t help but have an immediate light-bulb go on that A. Nurses are supposed to have an empathetic nature. Leading to B. So does this explain the nurses that end up in administrative positions and no longer do patient care? (UM nurses at both insurance companies and Discharge planning nurses = no empathy = ‘get the hell out of this/that hospital’ to me)

PS – I am not a nurse, nor was I involved in patient care…I was administrative, and I have only had one decent job with one compassionate manager in 20 years. Everything else I did, I worked for some heartless people…which always amazed me and I never understood it.

Righteous woman,

I wasn’t just referring to nurses, but to “healthcare professionals” in general, therapists, doctors, nurses, social workers, case managers etc.

The enablers who are health care professionals, as well as the psychopaths and narcissists who are health care professionals seem to be at a higher rate than just about any other profession I can think of unless it was lawyers and legal people, or cops. LOL

Cops and laywers seem more in the “persecutor” roles, and nurses in the “enabling” roles, but also in persecution.

Maybe it is just because I am “looking for it” and studies would not bear me out, but at least it is an opinon, even if it is wrong. LOL

I have come upon my share and more than my share of physicans wh owere into power and control, and administrators as well, and known but not worked with judges and lawyers who were also into the N and P modes, as well as N and P psychiatrists and PhDs…the damage these people are able to do from these positions is unbelieveable.

After my husband was killed I had to retire because I no longer had the emotional strength and reserve to deal effectively with fighting this battle daily at work. To see patients disabled and die because of heartless Ps at administration level, or because of physicians who should never have been allowed to practice veterinary medicine much less human medicine.

It was vital to my own recovery from my husband’s death that I get away from extra stress at work. I am just glad that I had the option to do that and still keep the lights burning in my house. I know that others don’t have that luxuary andhave to keep going to work some way to support their kids and still deal with their P X. My “cross” might have been heavy, but I didn’t also have a P on my back, stabbing me, and a kid on each hip weighting me down as I tried to struggle to work each day.

The mothers and fathers who struggle to work, deal with a Psychopathic x, and take care of their children, protect the children from abuse of the X and the courts and social workers, and still try to make a life—THOSE are my heroes! God bless them, and I pray for those brave souls every night!

Thank you – I want you to know that I was not accusing nurses, as I know you were/are a nurse, and it takes fantastic empathy and self strength to to dedicate as the profession demands…but I completely understand your position and applaud your decision. I have been through my own turmoil in the last year and suffered at the cruelty of a management person in the healthcare industry, which only added to emotions I was dealing with (not S related, my mother died and I went from being employee of the quarter to having an “attitude problem” because I wouldn’t work overtime anymore while I dealt with my family obligations and grief) I am not sure this management female was an S, but everything was peaches and cream when I worked 56 hours a week, but, but when I needed 5 instead of 3 days for bereavement, well, I stepped over some sort of line.

I posted somewhere else that I was going into business for myself…I am a paralegal that deals with Health Insurance issues…I have been in hell….I can’t work for these people anymore….So I found it VERY interesting that you said that….I was looking for some insight, as my situations have left me feeling very alone without a way to put my finger on my situations.

I went bac to work about 3 months after my husband’s traumatic death in an aircraft crash, (I pulled him out of the fire) I only worked 2 days a week (actually nights) but came in to work one night to have only 2 of us when there should have been 5 RNs, with 3 patients actually dying, and 2 of those were from DEHYDRATION from not enough staff on the day shift—when I called the administrator she was concerned ONLY with whether or not I thought she was TRYING to get enough help. I didn’t care how hard she was TRYING, but was dealing with the fact that patients were DYING because of the FAILURE of having enough staff.

Of course she became angry at me, and told me I had “an attitude” and was “not a team player”—both of which I agreed with. I did have an “attitude” and I wasn’t a team player because there was NO TEAM to play on!

I suggested that if there was not enough staff to care for them that patients be diverted to another hospital that DID have staff, but she let me now that THAT WAS NOT an option.

I turned in my notice. During my best of times I could deal with that “stuff” but not when I was still grieving, and it was more important to me to take care of ME, than to fight a situation that I COULD not win, and quit work and retire.

Most people are given 2 or 3 days off for the death of an immediate family member and then expected to return to work. Since my job required a great deal of concentration I didn’t feel tha tI was able to return to work at all until 3 months, but then realized, really that even then I was not ready. With the other stressers in my life going on at the same time, I shouldn’t have even tried to go back to work.

I don’t care how strong a person you are, there are somethings that NO ONE can cope with and still do a stressful job well. I finally stopped holding myself to a higher standard than is humanly reasonable. I never held anyone else to that standard, but for some reason I held myself to that standard.

Learning to be KIND TO MYSELF was the first of many steps I needed to take in order to start the healing process. I also realized that the “healing process” will never end, it is like an alcoholic “heals” but it is a day-to-day process, that is never “complete”–it is an on-going process, not an end point where you can say “I am healed.” Accepting that healing is on-going was another concept that was difficult for me to grasp. But that concept has made it easier for me to reach twoard the goal and not beat myself up if I am somewhat short of the goal on any particular day.

Life isn’t perfect now, and I am still far from perfect now as well, but as long as I can stay on the “right path” toward improvement, I won’t slide back too far. Right now, though I must accumulate some strength so that when the next “shoe falls” I won’t fall to pieces with it…but will have the reserve strength to handle it “well.”

I am a nurse as is my P husband. I tend to agree that healthcare professionals have a higher number of psychopaths than other professionals, and in my experience, they definitely gravitate toward management positions. I have known very few fair, compassionate directors of nurses. Most of the ones I’ve known have been very cut-throat and self-serving.

I wonder if psychopaths are drawn to helping professions. All the better to fool you, my dear! Well, that’s certainly the case with my husband. He is one of the most competent nurses I know. He is Mr. Hero on the job (and doesn’t hesitate to brag about it; every night when he’d get home from work I’d hear about the wonders of his workday; to hear him talk he was the only decent healthcare worker in the place; everyone else was an idiot).

He gets more compliments from patients. Honest to God, he has patients and patients’ relatives telling him he was “born to be a nurse.” That he is “an angel.” Barf. I guess listening to this day after day helps him maintain the lies he tells himself. Helps to fool others, of course, and fool himself too.

Not only that, for a man, working in a hospital offers an extremely lucrative female to male ratio, which my P, and I’m sure many others like him, do not hesitate to take advantage of.

I don’t want to make it sound like there are no honest, good-hearted healthcare workers. Most are. But if 1-4% of the general population are psychopaths, my impression is that the numbers are higher in healthcare professions.

Whether this man is a sociopath or not, I wonder when it became alright to pre-judge an individual who has never harmed you and place them into a position of persona non-Grata, for your feelings. I wonder how much your feelings have been shaped by what you have read and by this site instead of based on your own personal experiences. To me it is unfair to project upon someone else that which you would like to see. If the man has not given you any reason to find negativity in him, other than going out of his way to try and get to know you and be friendly, then you must ask yourself, why would you compare him to a sociopath. Secondly, no matter what list of traits you may create for any disorder, most individuals will meet 1 or 2 of those traits at given points in their life. That is why the DSM-IV and most other psychological list demand that a person meet a definitive amount of the criteria. I feel that this is rather catty, a form of finger pointing and a cry for attention rather than a real description of real world sociopathy. I mentioned earlier the act of projection, which in psychology is when you choose to see an individual in the manner that you want to despite the reality of their actions or personality. This is done when you feel a weakness or lacking internally due to a personal affliction of your own. That is what this seems like more to me, than some real life confrontation with a sociopath.

Concerned Viewer,

I don’t know if you are speaking in generalities or talking about one poster specifically, but imo it is more than “alright to pre-judge an individual who has never harmed you and place them into a position of persona non-Grata, for your feelings.”

Besides the fact that most, if not all, of the examples on this thread are about people who are anything but harmless, experience demonstrates that our intuition is there for good reason. It can serve us, protect us, and trusting it is usually the right thing to do.

In our society we are often influenced by thinking like yours. Don’t be judgmental, always look for the good. And being the sensitive people most of us are, we feel vaguely guilty; we think we should change. We don’t want to be unfair. We don’t want to be unkind. We don’t want to think, let alone say, mean things about other people.

And so these people–sociopaths–obtain another advantage. We are demonized for even trying to protect ourselves. We are duped, once again, into suspending our innate judgment and good sense–protective mechanisms we’ve been practically brainwashed to ignore.

Many who encourage us to think this way do mean well, but coming from a sociopath, these admonishments are darkly manipulative tactics: a way to put us on the defensive, a way to deflect blame, a way to gaslight us and get us to suspend judgment so they can get away with unbelievably monstrous behavior.

Don’t feed the troll. Whose judging, whom?

Holywatersalt – Concerned viewer didn’t understand what this page was about…WE know it is about relieving negative feelings and finding peace again…that is what concerned viewer failed to understand…They didn’t read the home page, they didn’t take the time because what they were in search of information that didn’t apply to our situations and they are a college student…they have yet begun to experience life, let alone, have understanding of what we went through, and this forum onto which we gathered. CV did not understand their audience, and as we all know, that comes with time. That IS just being human. Quick to judge? Yes. But we all learn from our mistakes with patience and guidance.

Apparently, Concerned Viewer jumped-in between commercials and has lost the plot!

CV, these aren’t men who “just wanted to get to know” us. In many cases, they’ve been abusive, done despicable acts against us, and have proven themselves liars, cheats, frauds (hence the title of the blog) emotional and/or physical abusers and all around sick [email protected] (Pardon the French.)

Nobody is crying for attention. We’re just going over events in the aftermath, trying to make sense of the nonsensical world of the sociopath, who, by the way, is quick to make judgments and condemn other people for being somehow “inferior.”

Hope you’re not doing that, or meaning to come across that way.

I can well remember when at age 19, in all the narcissistic arrogance of youth I sat in a place in California and expounded on the causes of all political upheaval and wars… my later husband (who was older than I was) and knew much much more about the world than I actually did, smiled benignly at me with sort of a grin that I recognize now as a very tolerant smirk. Years and years later when we married, I looked back on this time in my life and I asked him “Why on earth would you tolerate such a know-it-all adolescent without at least saying something to bring me down a peg?”

He laughed and said, “But you were so cute about it!”

Years later, when I listened to a very “know it all” teenager (who had been one of the most pleasant younger children I had ever known) expound on why he should be allowed to drive his parent’s vehicles even though he did not yet have a driver’s license. This was after a very lengthy and logical discussion on what the ramifications would be if he were in a wreck–both to him and to his parents—and at the end of it all he shouted, “Just give me ONE good reason!”

AT the time I despaired of this young man ever growing up to be a model citizen, but he did—-

When I went back to college as an older student to finish up my undergraduate and then graduate work, I was in classes with people of different ages, and it was a very interesting experience.

Later, when I went back to a college as the health care provider I enjoyed the freshmen’s narcissistic views of the world, and then when they came back as sophomores, after a summer of working in the real world many of them had matured into adults–it took a few more years for some of the others, and a few never matured while they were in college.

Yes, and sometimes I was NOT as tolerant as my late husband was when I was a narcissistic teenager, but opinions are like noses, every one has one. Unfortunately for some of us, we have gotten our REAL educations in the UNIVERSITY OF HARD KNOCKS, regardless of where our academic degrees (if any) came from…personally, I learned HOW to learn in college, and was exposed to “new ideas’ (not all of which I agree with today) but my practical and useful education came from the U of Hard Knocks—and I have awarded myself a Post Doctoral degree in that August institution, I paid a HIGH TUITION and studied hard, as most of us here have. I think many of the people on this list are still working on their “master’s degree” but many if not most of us have at least gotten our “undergrad” work out of the way.

Commencement will be in May—the year is optional. LOL

OXDOVER,

I work with Teen girls. They have it ALL figured out. And yes, they are little Narccissists. Weren’t we all? This is a normal developmental stage. But we aren’t talking about teenage Narcissism, are we?

I was a little harsh on Concerned Viewer on the other thread. I just don’t like when people jump in with big studies and fancy words to try and tell us what this was all about. And as far as Man-Haters, I am definately not one and I left another site before ending up here at LoveFraud because there was a lot of bashing going on but no answers. While we do commiserate and recount the long list of details, I find the level of conversation to be very intelligent and accessible here at LoveFraud. Here, we explain in plain words what a Sociopath is by sharing our experiences and recognizing the common threads.

I have read lots of clinical explanations for Sociopathy and other disorders from the DSM-IV. However, reading about people’s experiences in plain words is what has clarified this experience for me more than any clinical definition. And for us, Sociopaths are not just a chapter we read about in one of our classes. We didn’t know what they were before but now, WE KNOW!

Aloha, I agree with you 110%–

I have worked with teenaged “budding psychopaths” in mental health facilities as well…and they are some SCARY kids.

AT the time I first went to work there I was reeling from the fact that my P-son had committed murder, and it was a very healing experience for me. My first role there was as the admissions person, and I would sit down with the parents and discuss why they were admitting their kid there…and believe me the stories made me have to get up sometimes and leave the room to keep from bursting out in tears.

Some of these parents had “no clue” and others were really well versed—and believe it or not, some of their kids were WORSE than mine! Mine had only committed murder, some of theirs had raped very small children.

I ended up with several roles in that facility over a year and a half that I was there. After an encounter in which a patient tried, and almost succeeded in killing me, I decided that was “God’s way of telling me that it was time for me to seek other employment” but I have always thought that the job offer from that facility when I wasn’t even looking for a job was a Godsend in my own life. It helped me cope with the first couple of years after my son was sent to prison “for life” and to come to grips with the grief I felt at that time at the “loss” of my son.

Later, he sucked me back in with his feigned “repentence” and his con-job, mainly I think just for “fun” and also because if he had me conned, I sent him commissary money which made his life a little nicer there, and visited from time to time.

Again, when I realized the con job that had gone on for YEARS by that time, and I had developed the “malignant hope” that his repentence was sincere–the grief hit me again as hard or harder than it had when he was first arrested…but I was in a place in my life, just having lost my husband, then my beloved step father, and become involved with a P-BF, and then with my mother protecting and enabling my P-son, things spiraled downward at such a rate, at such a time as I had few resources to fight for survival–I finally literally RAN, fled for my life, which was the best thing I could have ever done.

If I had had the strength to “stand and fight” I would probably be dead today, but I feel strongly that my faith and protected me, and somewhere inside me was a still small voice that told me to RUN, and I LISTENED. I am finally learning I think that it is better to be a live dog than a dead lion. LOL

I am also starting to get to the point that I can laugh about some of this stuff, which I think is a big step on the road to recovery. I do know, too that it is a ROAD, not a destination.

I do believe I owe this site, its viewers and its administrator an apology and a clarification. As ‘Righteous Woman’ stated, I did indeed stumble on this site purely by accident. I can not remember the exact search criteria; it was a combination of male, female, ratio, rape & population.

When I came across the article it piqued my interest so I began to read. Yet, I did so with ignorance, at 12 AM, while watching the primaries. I thought this to be a blog, unaware of its homepage facet. So it was with tiredness and a lack of information that my initial response was made. I thought that most comments were pertaining to men and therefore made the anti-male comment. But more so, I disagreed with the ideal of attempting to social engineer certain types of behavior into only one sex.

So I apologize for having stirred up any hurtful feelings or invading a place for personal healing. I was a college student, yes in psychology, but dropped out before finishing my masters degree. I am over the age of 30, which is accompanied by very serious life experience. I suffered molestation and physical abuse as a child. I accompanied a woman to an abortion for a child which I wanted, but did so because it was right for her and ever since have felt anger towards the feminist movement which fails to notice the similarities of problems faced by both genders. I have also had a failed marriage with a controlling/cheating spouse.

I mention all of these things to explain that I have been exposed to similar situations of distress, from which I am capable of understanding your feelings and need for healing. That however does not change my views. I believe that you can not allow others to change your ability to live a fruitful and caring life. I do not believe it should be allowed to make you feel as though you have to be on guard and watchful of every individual who enters your life. I have had the unfortunate experience of trust issues, due to my own problems and I know the stress and difficulties with interpersonal skills it can cause. I have since had to learn to approach life in a new manner, using the things learned as tools in my life and not allow them to be mechanisms that control my interactions with the rest of the world. I have not completely mastered this because it is an unending journey, but I do feel as though we need to make more of an effort to control our fears and not vice versa.

I apologize for any comparison I may have made to the administrator or this sites registered members, when concerned with a negative manner and assumptive nature when comparing them to militant feminist. I again apologize for any disruption I may have caused. I only ask that it be kept in mind that our actions reflect heavily on the world that we occupy and that we may consciously or unconsciously shape our reality and the reality of others by way of our actions and feelings.

Thank you.

CV – Inquiring minds would like to know, since you volunteered some of your own experiences, Was you marriage short? and did you end the madness immediately? despite pleas to try again from your wife? We did not..we kept going and going and going….for many of us, for years.

Concerned Viewer,

What happened to us will forever change how we view the world and others. At first, it may be a bit paralyzing. As time goes by, we move from paralysis to wisdom.

There was something I missed before about a person that hurt me very badly. I will never miss these clues again. I will admit I have a hair trigger response to anything that doesn’t hit me right. At the same time, I know that people can have sad stories about their past and not be a Sociopath. People can have charisma AND compassion. People are complicated. But there is a set of behaviors that I am sure I will never miss again should I encounter them.

Many of us had shakey boundaries, or none at all. Lots of people have poor boundaries and they fall in love with a wonderful person and they live a nice life together.

At LoveFraud, we are learning to see dangerous behaviors that are cloaked in packaging that is not always recognizable for what it is. In fact, lots of the people here that were the “perpetrators” look like upstanding citizens in many facets of their lives. But most of us did have an inkling that something was not right. We now explore that inkling when we feel it or we obey our instincts at the risk of hurting someone’s feelings.. because before, we cared more about others than our own well being… at least I did.

And lastly, as we heal, I believe we look more and more at ourselves because after all, we were there and things don’t just “happen” to you. I played a role.

I now know the role I played inside and out. And I know the inklings, and I know a sugar coated piece of doogy doo when I see one… or at least, I have to knowledge to be careful before I take a bite. EEEWWWWWW. Sorry for that one.

Yes, I hope to love and trust and be free again in my spirit. But I can love AND be wise at the same time.

My experience with a Sociopath has changed me forever. I am stronger, more sure of my place in the world, more sure of who I am and who I am not.

Anyway, blah blah blah. Enough about me.

Thanks for stopping by. You may have learned something here that will help you one day… or help someone else. I do hope so. We talk about our experiences because it helps us heal and it helps others too.

All the best to you….. Aloha!

Dear Righteous Woman,

It was a relationship of 9 years, 7 of those marriage. 5 extra marital relationships that I know of and a lot of crying, anger and apologies were her response to my frustrations. I am not one to give up easily on things when I believe in them.

I do plan on reading the site, when given the chance…I do so if not to further my information base than to experience the concepts and feelings of another group of individuals.

I am going through child support issues right now, and stumbled on the site. Gave me a great source of understanding…because for a long time..I really felt alone, no one I knew had been through it. It is very interesting to read and compare historys. And to lend support, strength and experience to the varied stages of recovery. And it is recovery. As a woman, I hung in there for the benefit of my son..at least in anticpiation of HOW he should benefit from having a father. It didn’t work out that way, but i was tortured and yanked around in the process. Now, ensuring that my son has not been primed and ready to be taken advantage of in the future is a huge priority for me. The behaviors of any S are not acceptable, and many of us were told to respect our parents regardless, that set us up to be victims…as you read on, I am sure you will see what I am talking about.

Who knows, with a masters in psychology…this may become your niche. Psychologist can identify what we are dealing with, but give no tools to help us deal with it…so, now we are here in our many stages of recovery.

Dear CV,

it sounds very much like your X “fits the profile”—the extramarrital relationships in great number is one of the “RED FLAGS”

You may just be at the RIGHT PLACE after all.

“Hanging in there” is another one of the very common things about people who are “chosen” victims. Most of us have that same committment to working things out logically, or overlooking “small faults” until they become BIG faults, and we are by then emotionally “trapped.” It is sometimes almost like Stockholm Syndrome.

Psychopaths have no conscience, their brains are literally hard wired different than “normal” people’s brains and there is unfortunately a big genetic component to the disorder. It is NOT a “mental illness” though these people can also have mental illness or bi-polar, depression, etc. at the same time.

Many self medicate with drugs or alcohol, as well.

Good reading and do keep an open mind, we are not “bashers” here but I think many of us are pretty “opinionated” and you can see that some of us (me included) can have a hair trigger if someone acts in such a way that we perceive it as trying to invalidate our approach. LOL

Healing is a journey, a long never-ending road, not a destination, as the encounters leave you changed in some ways. It can be a change for the better, and you can come out much stronger and a better more understanding person. But even healing doesn’t make you want to get a tattoo that says “door mat” on your back. In fact, it may make you a bit cautious (not paranoid, but definitely CAUTIOUS)

CV: you said “I believe that you can not allow others to change your ability to live a fruitful and caring life. I do not believe it should be allowed to make you feel as though you have to be on guard and watchful of every individual who enters your life. I have had the unfortunate experience of trust issues, due to my own problems and I know the stress and difficulties with interpersonal skills it can cause. I have since had to learn to approach life in a new manner, using the things learned as tools in my life and not allow them to be mechanisms that control my interactions with the rest of the world. I have not completely mastered this because it is an unending journey, but I do feel as though we need to make more of an effort to control our fears and not vice versa.”

Your goals certainly are my goals.. and I would guess most people on here as well. Only it will be with greater wisdom and caution and the ability to have boundries for those wish to abuse them. But I fully intend to heal from my experiences and move on with great hope and positive thinking.

This site has never felt to be biased – as for the label Sociopath – I believe many of us are too kind, forgiving, loving and looking for the best in someone to loosely throw that word onto someone. And from the varied experiences read here, there are no man/woman, rich/poor, young/old criteria placed on who these Sociopaths will be.

I think a common thread is most of us seem to be caring, forgiving, intelligent, willing to try and try again, giving the relationship our all – until we have no more all left. The very real events that occured; be it lies, cheating, stealing, manipulation, putdowns – have left us temporarily in disbelief, hurt, disappointed and struggling to regain our former healthy and hopeful selves.

From what you have shared – you likely have felt the pain as well. Whether consciously or subconsiously, everyone who has been hurt to that degree needs healing, comfort, understanding and what this site offers most, is validation that you werent crazy for trying to be part of what appeared to be a happy relationship in the beginning and not being quick to give up on it.

I think many of us here actually have HUGE compassion towards others including men and we have hung in there with these men over and above what we should have put up with. Man hating women would have the reverse behaviour, similar to a male with Personality Disorders, who would secretly be controlling the relationship and would infact be ruling the relationship on their terms. The blogs here prove that many of the targets here have not behaved as man haters.

Good points, all. We’re not man-haters. If we had been, we’d have turned around and done the same things to the people who did these things to us. The best I could muster was a little innocuous pranking of him before my conscience took hold. Yes, some of us are angry — but you would be angry too if you were cast in a play and moved around a stage like a pawn, never being told that a performance was even underway.

It’s a very strange, bumpy adjustment, resuming a reality already in progress while we were in the N Fog. Bumpy, angry sometimes, but ultimately, we acted in good faith. Even me, who tried to hide my true self from the P, somewhat subconsciously, in order to avoid being hurt by his eventual betrayal, still tried my best to believe in him one more time .

If anything, most of us have been people with huge tolerance for a spectrum of behaviors, large levels of acceptance and love for others and benevolent faith in the universe.

Unfortunately, acting on those traits has sometimes gotten us into trouble. So, we come here, discuss it, work on ourselves and try to keep moving upward and onward.

‘Bad vibes from a workplace psychopath” was my e-mail to Lovefraud. Thank you all for your views and support. My heart goes out to each and every one of you who have ever crossed paths with a wolf in sheep’s clothing. I highly recommend Gavin DeBecker’s book The Gift of Fear. It changed my life and tuned me in, intuition and instinct is everything. Everything.

To Concerned Viewer, apology accepted. When you state that “our actions reflect heavily on the world that we occupy and that we may consciously or unconsciously shape our reality and the reality of others by way of our actions and feelings” I couldn’t agree more. But it goes both ways. I did say “Everyone who comes in contact with him describes him as creepy.” This is not entirely my perception. There’s something dreadfully wrong there. Like the rest of you, I’m a kind, generous and very compassionate person. To feel so involuntarily repelled, physically and mentally by another human being so totally goes against the grain of all that is me, that it has caused me hours of anguish trying to figure it out. I attribute it to the truth, and you better believe I sit up and take notice with every neuron and fiber. I am my protection.

AwakeAlive. Interesting to read your posting on LoveFraud. I agree that an encounter with someone with personality disorder is not your simple love scenario. It strikes at the very core, deep. We question every part of the shadow and I have had to examine recesses in my mind, around my own thinking that I never thought possible. This has been a deeply painful but enriching experiences for me that has shakin my very foundation, and I am a very strong intelligent person. It doesnt matter, whether you are intelligent or not, the intelligent ones always make better targets, I learnt from ‘The art of Seduction’ book. The intelligent ones take in the brainwashing better, they are more responsive, more analytical, more switched on to the N,P,S – and that is what they want – they want your energy.

Beverly, I agree that N’s/P’s tend to seek out intelligent people. From what I have read so far on this site, and on a couple of other sites, the members come across as very intelligent and very articulate.

My ex loved to talk, in fact he could talk for England and often berated younger women for not being able to ‘hold much of a conversation’. He was intelligent, and knew a lot of information about many subjects, which made for interesting conversations. And he was full of energy most of the time, though there were times when he would sleep until 2pm. I guess he burned himself out from time to time. His mind was constantly ticking over, even as we sat together eating, or watching TV, I could tell that his mind was working overtime…..probably trying to work out how to manage his time with OW! Or how to keep me in the loop without making too much of a commitment!

Very interesting, Beverly. Especially your comment that it’s shaken your very foundation. I relate to that and your words that it strikes at the very core, deep. My experience with this man at one point nearly consumed me in and out of work. He did get my energy and at times still saps it away! I say at times because I go out of my way to not have contact with this man, but his presence seeps in to my day. Some of his offhand comments bothered me so much that I did a basic internet investigation of him and even went as far as to check the registered sex offenders in my state and the state he says he’s from. But to no avail. I even considered having him investigated by a professional on my own dime. Yes, I have put this on record with HR twice. When he was hired, he was not thoroughly investigated by our company, in keeping with the privacy act for our state. Strangely, the HR Director commented that he gives her the creeps as well. Ha!
Thank goodness for this website. It has allowed me to voice my opinion, (almost a taboo opinion) about another person, pretty much without repercussion. I would never even consider referring to this person as P, S or N to anyone but my closet friend who understands, least I be judged.
So point taken, the intelligent ones are more responsive and pose much more of a challenge to P,S,N. But touche’ because he in turn, presents a challenge to me on a scale to which I’ve never experienced before. Why do I feel this way? Why? I’m salt of the Earth, feet on the ground and I am fascinated.

i met my ex spath at work how ironic, he was watching and listening before he made a move on me. he was surounded by attractive girls at this work place a n at a loss for which ones to go for i think now. the first intro to him he just was listening to me talk to someone else and he cut into the convo un invited and started to ask me questions about my personel life almost right off, did have boyfriend blah blah do youlive with him, i was shocked he would ask me this stuff. he walked around a t work in his suit all thinking he was very well to do. he only worked casual, spent his free time loafing around at home,. he didnt get on with his boss, and seemed to not do much work more socialising. when he took an interst in me and we were becoming friendly i heard other girls saying he was annoying touching them and calling them in other departments uninvited, while he was persuing me at the same time red flag big time. with me he was watching me all the time from where he worked i could feel his eyes on me. he went out of his way to help at work when one else would help me, he was touchy feely one day he brushed my hair out of my face like invaded my personel space to me that is something only a lover or family member does i cringed when he did this and he laughed and said you dont like that do you and i said no. then he once said to me he was going to come ova and kick my boyfriend out of my place, and i said well he pretty big, and he laughed it off saying i was only joking. so he had his sights set on me and was doing all this stuff to win me over. i wish i had listened to my self more. he also said stuff like i adore you id do anything for you and i am a person who likes simple pleasures, all of these and other things he said to me now i know have hidden meanings i wasnt aware of back then. hed aslo say; if i tell yousomething you should believe it! and if he didnt want to talk about something hed say ive already been thru this with you! yeh great words to say to someone you love……… thanks to you all its like reading my own story reading yours too.

AwakeAlive. I almost went down that route. I googled him, I thought he must be safe he has a security industry licence. Towards the end, I got in touch with a private investigator to find out what services available. He has very few official ties, no passport, etc. I thought at times I was going crazy. I even went to counselling 9 months after I met him to ask why I kept feeling so unstable with him and even she didnt diagnose him as an N. I since found out that even security industry licences are sometimes issued to unappropriate people and some offences are considered spent after a period of time, so a licence could still be obtained and the procedure to get a licence attend one days training is not difficult. So the Licence turned out not to be reliable. He even got his current job by fooling me into giving him a reference and he only needed a reference from last job, so he was in. Into a place where 95% of staff are females in the caring industry. I was even told by HR that what adults get up to in their time is their business.

I met a guy at work and have had an ongoing relationship with him. He has had all kinds of financial issues and I have given him thousands of dollars. I really didn’t believe that things that people had said about him not being trustworthy and being a liar. He seemed very sincere and kind. I fell in love with him.
I had began suspecting that he was being untruthful to me in the past few months. There were women’s underwear and lingerie in his laundry basket. He told me that they were his grand-daughter’s (she is 17).
Recently I came across some pictures of his cruise in the summer with his family (what he told me) and there are pictures of him and his godson’s mother posing together. I bought this man suits and a tux for this cruise and he took another woman. He says he is going to Vegas with his family this summer but I know now that this isn’t true. He has had an ongoing relationship with this other woman the whole time he has been seeing me.
He even told me that there are no other women in his life, only me.
He has been in the hospital with pneumonia and I am waiting for him to get better before confronting him. Any suggestions?
By the way, the Cadillac that he drives is owned and being paid for by me. This man is very manipulative and a great conversationalist. He sounds so sincere and convincing.

hummingbird – all I can say is Listen to your Instincts! I dont know how long you have been seeing him, but its likely not going to get better, given the information so far. I know how it is, to keep looking for the good in him, believing his perfectly arranged words, your hear what he says, but your gut tells you different.

I fell in love with a man that could convince me of anything – he kept lying, cheating, and manipulating me and yet I still went back for more, over and over. I wasted two years trying to “give him a chance” and he just kept trying different tactics on me, he would learn what he could and couldnt get by with and become a better liar or a better sneak the next time.

I finally got to a place where I did not want to worry anymore. It was making me physically break down and my mind was getting so very tired. I’m out for good, only since December but it feels such a relief to not be bothered by his whereabouts or who he is sleeping with tonight.

Listen to your inside feelings, the little voice that tells you what you need to do. Dont second guess – you deserve so much more than what he is forcing you to take.

best wishes and keep reading this site.. it is medicine for the soul as you go through breaking away from this kind of man.

L.

Thanks findingmyselfagain.
I read the definition of a sociopath and there were so many similarities in his behavior.
It is so odd that I still feel something for this man after finding out how truly unfaithful and untruthful he has been.
Truthfully, I felt sorry for his financial situation. He does work full-time and has to pay child support for a child that lived with him but is not his child. He hasn’t had money to pay for his medicine – he has a lot of health issues including diabetes.
I know that I should not have jeopardized my own financial situation to bail him out over and over again.
He always has an answer for everything. I know I need to get him out of my life. Unfortunately we both work for the same government agency so I will see him at work.

hummingbird – I work with mine too. I have to deal with him once a month pretty heavily with his projects. Like you said, you dont get why you feel something for him when you know what he’s all about. I do too. I miss him and I still feel drawn to him but I have to self-talk daily that what I miss and love is not a real person. It is a person I “wish” he was.

They always have sob stories.. are down on their luck for all kinds of reasons. What better way to win over a caring, giving, sympathetic woman? Then once they have you, they can begin to play their games. You have to stop feeling sorry for him and begin to feel sorry for yourself.. then begin to heal and become strong again. Become the woman you were before you were pulled down into his little tornado of needy, poor him.

It takes alot of strength on your part, to do what is best for yourself. They have a strange power over us and when they sense you are becoming strong and trying to break away, all the charm or the tears, or the needs come out of them like crazy. They know your buttons to push that will get you right back. You have to set your mind to believe in better for yourself. If you stay or go back to him, you will begin the vicious cycle of unrest and unhealthy patterns that so many of us on here have done from 1 year to 18 years… the stories are so varied.

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