By Ox Drover
I got to thinking today about being stronger now than I was prior to the last experience with the psychopaths in my life ”¦ but when I really got to thinking about it, I realized I have actually always been as strong as I am now, I just didn’t know it or take advantage of it.
One of the reasons that humans are able to work horses, mules and oxen to pull heavy loads is because the beasts we use for our labor do not realize their strength. They don’t realize the absolute brute force power they have over us. We “control” them because they allow it.
Why do they allow it? The answer is because they are not aware of the strength and power that they have, so they allow us to take it from them and use it for our own benefit. We may “give back” something to them, like food and care for what they give us in the form of their obedience and labors, but the bottom line is that any time they realize that they have the power and strength to break away they could do it. Even if we were to abuse them, not feed them, they would still allow us to use their labor until they dropped over dead of starvation, because they don’t know any better. They don’t recognize that they don’t really “need” us to furnish feed, they could run away and find grass to fill their bellies and not labor for us. They just don’t know it. Even the fences I have around my farm are not strong enough to hold them if they really want through them, but merely “suggestions” for them to stay on this side of it. If they wanted through, the wire and posts would topple.
When we start training oxen, which are really nothing but baby calves (no special breed of animal just cattle), we are stronger than they are, and if necessary, we could wrestle them to the ground, and we also teach them that we are the “food gods” and that ALL GOOD things come from us, as well as some pretty painful ones if they do not conform to our alpha position in the “herd.” When you get right down to it, in many ways we (humans) control animals the way that psychopaths control their victims. The only difference is that I actually care about my animal’s welfare and am emotionally attached to them, whereas a psychopath really doesn’t care much about their victim’s welfare or health.
Intermittent reinforcement
In training animals, trainers use “intermittent reinforcement.” The psychologist B. F. Skinner wrote that this brings on a stronger “bond” with a given behavior than if you rewarded them every time they did the behavior. That’s why a “slot machine” will keep someone stuffing money into it, because gamblers are just sure that “NEXT time” it will give them the jackpot. Psychopaths also use the intermittent reward system with us, and we keep hoping that by doing what they want, the NEXT TIME we will get the “jackpot” reward from them.
We could rebel and tell them to take their intermittent rewards and shove them, that we are not going to knuckle down and be their victims, to “pull their plows” by going to work and giving them our money, but we don’t rebel against them. We are unaware that we have the strength and power to rebel, to stand up on our own. If we are earning the living and giving them the money, why do we need them? If s/he is earning the living and we are staying home taking care of the kids all the time, still, what do we need them for?
Power and strength
We have the power and strength to take care of ourselves if we will just recognize it, acknowledge it and then use it. One working parent, taking care of the children and still making a living and a home, is still a “better deal” for children than one good, nurturing parent who is stressed and depressed most or all of the time because of the drama and abuse from a psychopathic partner.
I really am no stronger today than I was back in the midst of the psychopathic chaos, when I was literally huddled on the floor in the fetal position, emotionally “sucking my thumb,” fearing I would be killed by my psychopathic stalkers any minute.
My psychopathic son doesn’t hate me any less, most of my other relatives are no more supportive than they were back then, but I feel stronger. I feel safer. I feel better, because I recognize that I am strong enough to protect myself as much as anyone can. I can live a good life, a happy life, a healthy life, and take control of my own life. I don’t have to give that control and strength and power to anyone.
I can reward and reinforce my own good behavior, I can exercise my power, my strength and my autonomy to be what I want to be, to be the best that I can make myself.
Dear Brian,
Let me clarify some things about “personality disorders”–there are “several varieties” mentioned in the Diagnostic manual for psychology…and THE SYMPTOMS OVERLAP. Also, just because a person is a bi-polar (what they used to call manic-depressive) does not mean that they are NOT ALSO X or Y as well. In fact, people who “qualify” as sociopath frequently are also Bi-polar, ADHD, and so on. So if you put a person with one disorder or mental illness and ADD another to it, the result is MULTIPLIED in the intensity of the problems.
More often Women with the symptoms and behavior you mentioned the “I’m a victim” and the Push/pull would be “diagnosed” as Borderline Personality disorder, but that name is A BAD CHOICE I THINK, because “border-line” in normal terms usually means “On the border of” and when that name was CHOSEN it did mean “on the border of PSYCHOTIC” or in regular terms “CRAZY” and “out of TOUCH WITH REALITY,” so it is a very SERIOUS diagnosis and not a diagnosis that mental health professionals give lightly or quickly, but out of a PATTERN of behaviors over a long period of time.
ALL the “personality disorders” are STABLE and are NOT REALLY TREATABLE WITH MUCH SUCCESS. Any “progress” that a person with a personality disorder makes is usually very shallow and temporary. Also, keep in mind that many of these personality disorders also have LEVELS of the disorder, just like a person is “tall or short” or “smart or dumb” along a continuum not just an IS OR IS NOT situation.
Learning about personality disorders, what are the signs and symptoms, and about the treat ability or not is a big job, but it is also one that is WELL WORTH IT, because learning to protect ourselves from these DYSFUNCTIONAL RELATIONSHIPS is an important part of our having successful lives of our own and successful relationships.
Also, keep in mind that there is both a genetic predisposition to these disorders as well as environmental factors. I am the daughter of a high level violent psychopath, but I am not a psychopath, however I GAVE BIRTH TO ONE, that though he was raised with love and not abused or mistreated in any way is a high level violent psychopath himself, and is in prison for murder even as I sit here typing to you. He’s been there for 20 years and if he gets out he will kill again, no doubt. He is smart as a tack, but mean as a snake and meets every criteria for the worst of the worst in psychopaths. So did my biological father.
So, what I’m trying to say is, it isn’t JUST a matter of getting away from this one woman, but you now have an opportunity to LEARN from your relationship with this woman something that will benefit you and your unborn children for the rest of your life.
ps. if you are sleeping with this woman, be sure to know that frequently personality disordered women especially will get preg to hook you in as a victim for the rest of your life!
@Brian12 “I’m going to wait until, and if, she contacts me, and, if she’s in a responsive mood to present this to her.”
I’m not sure exactly what you meant by that, but I would certainly reconsider if by “present this to her” you mean that you will share this topic &/or conversation with her. If she is Borderline that probably would only inflame the situation. And if she is a sociopath/psychopath that is just asking for a whole lot of trouble. IMHO.
Oh, and I second what LL and Oxy said above. Especially the “prego” thing. Men r-e-a-l-l-y need to be careful around that.
I’m trying guys, I really am. I hear you and agree….it probably is better for me to move on. But, remember I’m still just trying to get a grasp on all of this. I still am emotionally attached, and intuitively want to fix it…..even if it is unfixable. I’m not going to contact her now, so maybe ater a few days thinking, I will have a clearer perspective. I’m very confused at this time, trying to make the right choice. Any more advice or comments will be surely welcome now.
Brian
Brian,
I do understand where you are coming from with the attachment, because the “push/pull” manuvers actually BOND us to them chemically in our brains, believe it or not. And, that longing for what is “gone” or is “away” is a normal part of the chemical connections we have with those we love inside our brain.
I’m not sure if you have been sleeping with her or not, but if you have, sex actually releases Oxytocin which is the “bonding” hormone which attaches to receptors in your brain bonding you to that person. Psychopaths and other personality disordered people do not have a normal amount of this hormone receptors and they actually do not “bond” normally. Sex is “different’ for them but is a tool they use for manipulation. Under normal conditions, sex is a “bonding ritual” between two people, however with psychopaths it is more a ONE-SIDED BOND.
She WILL call you back probably pretty soon—I dont’ need a crystal ball to tell you that. She will play “nicey” again and the push pull will start again and RINSE AND REPEAT…and will continue this way until the relationship explodes or she finds another victim.
I suggest that you read in the meantime, and learn. Go to the BPD sites and read about them, but also the reading here about psychopaths and sociopaths is also very indicative of the relationship results you can expect from a BPD, or ANY person with PD, and that is DYSFUNCTIONAL and TOXIC.
Even if she is not a “full blown” BPD, she is dysfunctional and toxic and does not know how to have a functional normal relationship. You way you are happy 80% of the time and miserable 20%, it won’t be long before the percentages reverse and you are MISERABLE 80% OF THE TIME and only HALF MISERABLE the other 20%—and you will have 2 kids and a mortgage and be trapped forever. Think about it. At this point, you CAN walk away from her, imagine her using the kids you love as clubs to beat you over the head with. It usually splinters the kids in the process.
EDUCATE YOURSELF. It is your best option. God bless and good luck!
Brian
Whether borderline or psychopathic Is irrelevant. These people know exactly how their behavior affects you. That’s why they do it. Discussing the matter with her Will only give her more hooks to grab.
Everything they do is because they Want power and control over you. Everything you reveal gives them more of that.
The only healthy thing you can do for her is to give her a ride to the therapist office.
Brian,
I agree with Skylar on this one. I’m really glad you’re here. PLEASE take it from me, if I wasn’t hellbent on trying to fix the very behaviors that SHE displays (although I refuse to be in a relationship and hurt anyone else that way), I would NOT be (well, shoot, am not NOW) good relationship material!
It will take a LONG TIME for me to “Fix” what’s wrong WITH ME. It’s not up to anyone else to do that, although I have lots of support to move towards healing in general. Going to therapy is a HUGE step. But she needs to do that on her own.
If she has a personality disorder and knows this is what you want to keep the relationship, she may well do it. But it would only be manipulative (only my opinion here), and not for the greater good of herself. Also, she would KNOW that her healing has to begin and progress before a true involvement that is healthy could ever happen. I think an intimate relationship is questionable even if she were to get help. I don’t know what I would do if I didn’t have this blog, my therapist, my doctor and my friends (they do not know the gory details that the rest do), for support, but she has to WANT the support, to WANT to change the behavior.
Because if not, healing isn’t possible and you’re going to keep going in circles with her.
Take care.
LL
ok, so I’m getting the consensus is, I should move on. You think I’m wasting my time by trying? I’m realizing it is a long shot all will work out, and that it may never work. But I can’t help feeling I should at least talk to her, when the time is appropriate. I’m so torn between doing what I think is right, and following my heart and hope for the best.
I’m believe I’m going to contemplate on this for awhile, and prepare myself……I think I have little choice but to move on. It may be too much to handle.
Dear Brian, that “wishy, washy, feeling” of “yes I want to help her because I looooove her” and the “I better run while I can still get my legs to move” is very NORMAL when you are in a relation-shit with someone who is dysfunctional. We have been pulled into the drama-rama over and over, and it has become almost an addiction to us. Disordered people PREY on this “strength” and caring we have, this compassion and this need to “fix” others and “help” them. Again, believe it or not, the brain actually has a positive chemical reaction to helping others (in normal people) so the feelings you have are quite “normal” to this situation.
Hoping against hope that someone will be “fixable” is what I call MALIGNANT HOPE, in that it is like CANCER in that we hang on to that hope even when ALL IS LOST and we almost refuse to give up. Even when my son was convicted of murder, and he WAS guilty, and in fact PROUD of how he killed the young woman, people with GOOD INTENTIONS would tell me, “He’s your sooooonnnn you can’t give up hope he will find Jesus” YEA, RIGHT! Well, YES, YOU CAN GIVE UP HOPE and there are times that you should. Even the Apostle Paul advised that if “a brother” offend us that we should talk to them, if that doesn’t work, go back with a witness or two and if that doesn’t work, to go to the church (community) and if that doesn’t work to treat them like a heathen–in other words as Paul said NOT EVEN TO EAT WITH THEM.
Here at LF and at most of the other survivor sites NO CONTACT is the word of the day. That means that under NO CIRCUMSTANCES do you have any contact with this person. You do not talk to them, text them, or read e mails or any other form of communication. It only gives them a “hook” to drag you back into their web of lies and abuse. NC (no contact) WORKS, but having contact almost always causes NEW INJURIES to our emotions and our spirit. “Evil companions corrupt good morals” and when we associate with people who are unrepentant we hurt ourselves. The personality disordered people can PRETEND TO REPENT but the bottom line is they do NOT but they fake it.
Jesus said to look at the FRUIT of a tree—in other words the ACTIONS of a person, not at what they way. “Forgiveness” is not just allowing someone to repeat their bad behavior over and over, it is getting the bitterness out of your heart, but at the same time, NOT TRUSTING them until you SEE what their behavior is. Joseph forgave his brothers a long time before they showed up in Egypt, but he did NOT trust them until he had TESTED them to see what kind of men they had become.
You have SEEN what this woman does month after month after month—you have seen her SAY “sorry” over and over but then her bad behavior REPEATS itself over and over. It isn’t going to change. Get out while you can, then come here and read and learn. It starts out about them, but ends up being about US. Our healing so we don’t get involved with another one. God bless.
Hi Brian12,
I’m going to try a different tack here, just for the sake of argument.
I agree that you’re in a tough spot. You’ve come to a LF forum because you have suspicions and you want to learn more. But they’re only suspicions, and you are a decent person who doesn’t want to unfairly jump to conclusions.
That is a very fair, reasonable and ethical approach to take, and you’re right to take things slowly.
However, most of us here have learned the hard way that being fair and reasonable and not prematurely condemning someone is NOT the same thing as being *entirely* trusting and leaving ourselves unprotected while we allow enough time for the truth to uncover itself – whatever that truth may be.
So she may be exactly what you’re hoping. She may be just confused and hurting. Speaking for the other side here, she may have bad PMS – you DID mention that this happens once a month! 😉
On the other hand she MAY in fact turn out to be Borderline. Or sociopathic. The points that have been mentioned above are all very relevant.
At this point you just don’t know. Bringing this situation to her to discuss puts all the power into her hands and takes it out of yours. And that’s just not a necessary thing to do – not now at this point in time. If she really is what you’re hoping, she’ll be worth waiting for. For everyone’s sake – hers included if she’s hurting and can’t see straight for the time being – you need to be patient, and quiet, and responsible here. And, I would suggest, do less ‘talking’ and more quiet ‘observing’.
One important lesson we’ve all learned from P/S/N’s is that they ‘test’: they test people, situations, etc… They test them for vulnerability to exploit. They test bystanders to see if anyone will intervene, for that matter. They test your loved ones to see if you’ll defend them.
And WE need to learn to test people too. Not test for vulnerability. Test for ethics (which, come to think of it is the opposite of what Ps do). Test for compassion. Test for someone’s willingness to exploit vulnerabilities (but make them small ones!!!) Test for the simple truth. And this always takes time.
Even when people fall instantly in love, they prove that they are right for each other for the long-run via the long slow process that every long-term relationship goes through in its initial stages. Rushing anything is not wise. It’s very important to ask yourself “Is this a *good* person that I can see myself with for the long-haul, who will be there for me, for my family, for my/our children in OUR time of need?”
I know you already know this, but it always bears repeating: If she really is that good person who completes you and makes both of you better than you were alone, THAT will be worth the wait.
But in the meantime USE PROTECTION!!!!!
Brian12,
“I’m so torn about doing what I think is right, and following my heart and hope for the best.”
Brian…everyone here at LF is here because we followed our heart & hoped for the best. I know how painful it is…you love someone so much and think they can’t be this “horrible” person. That there must be something else going on with them to act this way. My ex is a drug addict (currently clean & actively working on his recovery) and bi polar. He is not allowed in my life or our baby daughter’s. He was the sweetest person, loved me, adored me, and then morphed into a monster. For the longest time I thought if he just got help for his addiction he would become the old person he used to be. This was before I found out he was sociopath? I’m not a trained mental health professional, so I don’t like diagnosing people…but my ex definetely displayed sociopathic traits. Therefore…he is not allowed in my life. Thankfully too he lives 30 – 40 minutes away from me. A good thing!!!
Take it from me, because I learned the hard way. You need to follow your gut, and do what is best for you, not what is best for her. She is a grown woman and should take responsibility for herself…right? It’s not your responsibility, it’s her’s!!! Take care of yourself!!!
This is all said with love. I hope your situation turns out for the best!!