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By | March 25, 2011 120 Comments

Being a “judgmental person” is more than okay–it is wise

By Ox Drover

Many people think of the term “judging others” in a negative way. I think a lot of this comes from the Biblical admonition found in which Jesus said,  “Do not judge, or you too will be judged” (Matthew 7:1). Matthew 7:2-5 says, “For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.” What Jesus was condemning here was hypocritical, self-righteous judgments of others.

I frequently hear others say, “Well, I’m not judging him ”¦” when they talk about how someone they know has done something that is less than morally upright. When I was a young person in this community of mostly Scots-Irish Protestants, people were frequently “judged” or compared to community standards of behavior. If a woman or girl had a child out of wedlock, she was judged for doing so. She was held up to a standard of behavior that she had publicly failed to meet. Her child, unfortunately, was also “judged” because of the mother’s behavior. In fact, I have a friend who was born of an adulterous affair, and “everyone” knew who her father was, and though no one was nasty to her face, my friend still grew up feeling “judged” as a “bastard.” She had a “rough” childhood and adolescence, which included drug use, and early, promiscuous sexual behavior as a result of her feeling judged. Fortunately, she was able to pull herself out of her downward spiral, escape the vicious psychopath that she married. (He was charged with killing his mistress’s husband in a cold-blooded, execution-style murder.) My friend escaped from this man, married a good man, and has managed to raise her own daughter as a “good kid.” She has also managed to salvage her self-esteem and her place in the community as a well-liked and respected member of this community

What is “judging” exactly? What is fair judgment, and what is unfair judgment? Well, to me, “judging” what a person thinks or “reading their mind” is “magical thinking” and it is not possible to do fairly. No matter what people do, I can’t really know what they were thinking. One of the things that frustrated me the most in dealing with this “mind reading” was the gaslighting my egg donor did when she excused herself for lying to me by saying that if she had told me the truth I would have been so upset I would have “thrown a fit” because she loaned money to the psychopath my son had sent to infiltrate our family. I was so upset at the time that she presumed to be able to “read my mind” and I swore to her that I would not have “thrown a fit.” But how do you prove a negative when someone presumes to be able to read your mind and predict your behavior?

Mind reading and behavior prediction, based upon the ability to magically read one’s mind, is unfair judgment. It is, I think what Jesus was condemning in Matt 7:1 “Judge not least ye be judged.” However, showing discernment in our observations is not the kind of “judgment” that Jesus was condemning. James 3:11-12 says (11) Does a spring send forth fresh water and bitter from the same opening? (12) Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives or a grapevine bear figs? No spring yields both salt water and fresh. The author James is showing us here that we ought to be able to discern things that are right and good versus things that are bad by observation, not mind-reading ”¦ and that we should be able to see that a grapevine should bear grapes, and a fig tree figs, not the other way around. We ought to be able to look at a person’s “fruit” (behavior) and tell what that person is.

When we deal with a psychopath, many times they wear a “mask” to cover up what they are doing; they tell lies to throw us off the track. We aren’t perfect ourselves, and we know that we aren’t perfect, so we try not to “judge” others to a standard of perfection which we ourselves cannot reach. However, by trying to be empathetic to others and to not “judge” them, when we know ourselves not to be perfect, we sometimes go to the other extreme of not holding others to any standard of behavior at all. We calm ourselves by telling ourselves we are not “judging” this person, when in fact, we are overlooking their obvious bad behavior that repeats itself over and over and over.

While it may be comforting for us to think that there “is good in everyone” and that “even the worst person can change,” there are people who are quite satisfied to use and abuse others like objects or possessions, who actually obtain glee from using others.

Psychopathy isn’t “diagnosed” by one bad deed, or even two or three bad deeds, but is seen as a longstanding pattern of abusive behavior and an attitude of entitlement. Many times this bad behavior is masked behind a layer of “addiction” to drugs or alcohol, so that we may think that “if only he didn’t drink/drug” he would be fine, but this is “judging” in the wrong direction, by giving the person the benefit of the doubt about why they drink/drug. Judging in favor of someone (mind reading) about why they do bad acts is just as dangerous as mind reading the other direction and blaming someone for thoughts that you have magically put in their heads.

We need, as healthy individuals, to be able to discern behavior as abusive and to avoid the person who does these abusive things repeatedly, and to be able to judge/discern that person as an unhealthy individual for us to associate with. The reason doesn’t matter why they are unhealthy, and it really doesn’t matter if they qualify clinically as a psychopath or not, they are not healthy for us. The relationship drags us down.

The Biblical or social admonition to “judge not” doesn’t condemn us to being stupid to the point that we observe not, or that we fail to condemn bad behavior in either ourselves or others. We are expected to use our conscience to monitor our own behavior and when we fail to live up to the standard that we have set for ourselves we should feel “guilt” which tells us, “don’t do that again.” By the same token, we should also be able to see that the behavior of someone else is hurtful to us or others, and is not the kind of behavior that we would allow ourselves to do, so we are not obligated to tolerate it from someone else.

The bottom line is that if we don’t think that someone else’s behavior is something we would think is “okay to do,” then we do not have to allow that behavior or that person to affect our lives. If you won’t lie and cheat, don’t tolerate someone who does. If you wouldn’t steal, don’t tolerate someone who does. Stand up and say, “it is wrong to lie and steal, it is wrong to cheat. I won’t do that, and I won’t tolerate that.” That does not make you a “judgmental person,” it makes you a wise person. It makes you a discerning person. It makes you a healthy person.

 


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wisergirl

SO glad to see this. Unfortunately religious abuse and the portrait of a psychopathic God has been a huge aid and tool to other psychopaths. For many years I tried to understand HOW and WHY I got in this mess. My family was very loving, I never even heard my parents raise their voices at each other, and they were ALWAYS encouraging to me, always giving me positive reinforcement. So it made no sense.
However, I WAS raised in a VERY strict fundamental pentecost church/cult that used fear of God to rule everyone.
By the age of 14 we were out of there but the effects on my psyche were devestating. I truly believed to be a good christian girl I had to forgive unending, love conquered all, blah blah blah. This was a real eye opener for me when I realized that the universe, God, higher power, whatever you wish to refer to it as BEING, is IN all of us, not OUT there somewhere and letting another being, of any kind, abuse us is NOT godly or good. They are part of the eco system I think, like a wasp or alligator. Doesnt mean we have to lay in bed with them. Their purpose is served and move on. If you want to go biblical on this, think on the verse that says how God created all THINGS, even vessels of “dishonor” for a purpose.
Hmmm.

lesson learned

Ox,

Of all the articles you’ve written, this one is one of the very best. Very thought provoking and balanced. I really enjoyed this one.

LL

True-to-Self

Great Article Oxy. There is a verse in the Bible I am not going to take the time to look up that says “Judge with righteous judgment”.
My divorce lawyer helped me about as much as anyone in recent years as he wanted just the facts. I would say, “Well he hasn’t sent the check yet but it is probably because….” My lawyer would say, “Did he or didn’t he?”

I was raised with magical thinking and was also subjected to a lot of that during my last marriage. I hate the fact that people assume that they can speak for me, know my motives, act as if they can read my mind.

Manipulation is another thing I hate. My mother would play a game called “Don’t take what is offered to you.” Just recently my step-father picked up about three items from the store for me. I asked my mother how much I owed him. She said “We are not going to charge you this time, but offer to pay him anyway……that is another variety of write a thank you note to your aunt. I am 60 and should not have to be reminded to write thank you notes. I can pick up the phone and call.

I told my mother that I was not playing that game. I said “Either tell me how much I owe or don’t owe, I am not going to pretend to offer when you just said it was free. I was more than happy to pay the 15 to 20 bucks but was not going to play games.

I think I have veered off the subject, but this subject really hits a nerve with me. Thank you for bringing it up.

TTS

True-to-Self

I believe it is Martha Stout in her book on Sociopaths that says if a person lies to you three times, do not believe them after that. I wish I would have acted on that years ago.

What I mentioned earlier about the playing games about things offered to me, I was taught to be “The bigger person.” If a person seems to be taking advantage of you, let it go. Don’t make a big deal of it. On the other hand, don’t take advantage of them. My mother also contradicted herself and said “You are such a patsy.” I think that means gullible.

I found myself through the years giving her things that she admired in my house because “I was the bigger person, I don’t value stuff.” What that did is really set me up for my last spath who gave me gifts in the beginning but paid for nothing later on. One time he brought over a mechanic to fix the car that I was going to give him, a car that was dead in my driveway. He didn’t tell me in advance. I paid 200.00 in parts and another 100.00 to the mechanic friend of his. He did not offer to pay anything. What we were going to do that day was have lunch at my house in which I was going to cook hamburgers. I cooked them, they got cold, I got resentful, and then ended up feeding hm, the mechanic, and his friend who came to pick him up in the car. Just recently I finally had that DEAD car towed away. I should have done that with spath over a year ago.

TTS

Ox Drover

Dear TTS,

It is the “beholden” principle I call it. Someone does you a favor (a small one) so you are “beholden” to them and if they ask for a “favor” (whatever it is) because you are “beholden” to them, you must grant it even if you don’t wish to.

My culture (Scots-Irish/Southern US) is very invested in this custom, and when people do us a favor we must return one or we are “ungrateful.” The thing is that when psychopaths do us “favors” or give us “gifts” they are not favors or gifts at all but DOWN PAYMENTS ON CONTROL….

Your mother’s “giving” you the things that you had her pick up was an exercise in her trying to get “one up” on you and be able later to say “look what I did for you, you ungrateful child!” LOL

Ah, yes, I have been down THAT ROAD and learned to REFUSE gifts and offers of gifts from people I do not trust, and mostly that is my “egg donor” (X-mother) whatever you want to term her but it isn’t a “gift” it is a payment. LOL

Thanks guys, glad you liked the article…I am learning to be judgmental and to make decisions and judgments, but it has been a steep learning curve! LOL

BTW Martha Stout may say “3-lies and you are out!” but I say ONE LIE AND YOU ARE OUT….no second and third chances to lie to me….just lie one time, and I brand you a liar. I don’t need liars in my life.

Ana

Thanks for writing this article Oxy. It’s so nice that someone can read the bible, make heads or tails out of it and pass that SENSIBLE information on.

Hope to heal

Oxy, Really great post. You have a wonderful way of clarifying things that are sometimes VERY confusing. Thanks and God Bless!!

Stargazer

I remember that specific comment in the Stout book. She said something like: If a person lies once, it could have been a misunderstanding. If they lie twice, maybe there is some issue going on. If they lie three times, suspect a sociopath. This was not to say that you should stay with a person who has lied only once or twice. I think she was saying that normal people sometimes lie. But if you catch a person in three lies, this is a telltale sign that you are dealing with a socipath.

True-to-Self

The BEHOLDEN Principle. That is a great way of putting it. Of all of the spathdom I am trying to recover from these days, my relationship with my mother seems to be front and center. I am quite sure now that she is a Narcissist, but sometimes, like today she can be quite deceptive. She calls me on the phone and is suddenly interested in me. Oh well, I am not going to go there right now.

The problem with being “the bigger person” is that instead of someone just buying the groceries, giving me a receipt and I pay them, I end up over paying them, if not now, then later. My then husband used to cut her grass and do other helpful things for her like driving her to the airport. She would give him money. (not a set amount) I did a balancing act reprimanding him for taking the money. He told me that she wouldn’t take no for an answer, the same thing with my step-brother-in-law now. They try to help her, she pays them and then complains for years how they NEVER do anything for her. When she helped me with my divorce by getting me a good lawyer I walked a tight rope to keep from being beholden to her. That is why I am such a nit picker now about setting a price and paying what is owed. If someone want’s to say “it is on me” this time, then I will say thank you and buy their lunch next time.

One of the reasons I have been such a target for spaths is that I have been generous to a fault. Regarding the topic of judging, yes I not only gave them the benefit of the doubt but sometimes explained them to other people covering for them. It was exhausting. Now the only person I am responsible for is myself. Thank God. Yes I do believe in Him. He doesn’t want us to be stupid either.

TTS

Ox Drover

Oh, Star I see her point, absolutely! But I have just gotten to the point if I see that someone is LYING—and I’m not talking about the “do these pants make my butt look big?” kind of social lie, but REAL lies to cover up wrong doing or to con someone, or present a false front. When someone does something like that and there is no “misunderstanding” it is a real DECEPTION—I am done with them. I may not even tell them I am done with them, but I no longer trust them at all.

In the past, every time I have given someone who openly lied, you know what has happened—they have stabbed me in the back! So NO more….no more second chances. No more “let’s pretend it didn’t happen”—-I’m also not saying that someone couldn’t come to me and SHOW repentance, and make amends and regain my trust—but it will NOT BE QUICK, AND IT WILL NOT BE EASY.

MY trust is my most valuable gift….it goes along with my love and once someone has betrayed that trust and that love, it will be very difficult to get it back.

ACTIONS show how someone feels, and when people act badly toward me or others, it shows me that they do not respect or love those they are abusive of. So what they DO, how they ACT (the “fruit” they bear) shows me what kind of “tree” they are.

Stargazer

And BTW, good article, Oxy. I look at two things in people. 1) Their behaviors. And 2) How do I feel around them? There are some people who are very kind and nice to me, but sometimes I get drained being around them – sometimes for reasons known, and sometimes for reasons unknown. I have gotten very good at not letting people blatantly violate boundaries or abuse me. But it’s the subtle energy shifts when I am around people that I pay attention to these days. Sometimes a subtle energy shift could mean the difference between a good mood and spiraling downward in depression. So I guard my space very carefully. I have been noticing all the very subtle games people play – even when they are not sociopaths. There are some people who love to receive compliments but they never give them. Or they have a way of saying something judgmental every time I bring up my trip to Costa Rica. I have one co-worker who is obese and does everything she can to sabotage my diet. I don’t think she is even conscious of it. I will talk about my new diet and how well I’m doing (and looking thin). The next day, there will be chocolates for Easter or Valentine’s Day sitting on my desk from her. There are people who will argue with everything you say. There is a co-worker who is a gift giver. She loves to give very thoughtful gifts. But if you don’t reciprocate, she gets upset. She doesn’t say it, but you can just feel it. Never mind that she just got a giant inheritance and can afford to buy fancy gifts for people. She won’t say anything, but you can just tell she is hurt if you don’t get her something for her birthday. These are all little psychic zings (as I call it) that tear down my energy if I don’t protect myself.

Ox Drover

Dear TTS,

My egg donor kept on asking me (aftr my husband died) “do you need money?” and I said “No, thank you” (I would have starved first!) LOL and finally she realized that I would not have taken money from her and it pissed her off actually. BECAUSE if she couldn’t DO something for me, put me in her debt, then she jcould not have any leverage to control me….then she decided that I was TRYING to get control of her money, since I wouldn’t take it as a GIFT! LOL (head shaking here) One of the last Times I saw her she said to me “I haven’t changed my will you know.” LIKE I CARED. Like there isn’t enough money in the world to buy me, lady! She doesn’t GET IT. LOL

So now I am content that I do not owe her a thing in the world, we are paid up….

Well, I think I am going to hit the hay early tonight….g’nite and see you guys later tomorrow.

Stargazer

Oxy, I agree about the lying. I don’t tolerate it either. I think she was saying that one lie does not necessarily make a person a psychopath. I don’t think she was saying you should tolerate it or that it’s acceptable. I’m on your side on that one, though. As soon as I catch someone in a lie, I’m done.

hens

Very thought provoking subject miss ox – I never judged my x by what I thought was on his mind, but his deed’s…soon the deed’s became so consistant I was able to read his mind, body language, swagger, stagger, happy, sad, mean or sweet. It was uncanny how we could read each other’s mood’s..I never judged him at first, I realized he had some issue’s , well so did I. But the reality became a living nitemare, his reality was that he could leave when he got tired of the game or the dance. I judge him now because I know what his reality was and it was wrong, my reality was working hard to keep the relationship strong despite all the combined issue’s, circumstance’s etc..I loved him but feared what I realized I was trying so hard to love and keep strong..we both failed but on the scales of justice his deed’s trumped mine tenfold..
So sometimes I judge myself and am scared to death maybe it was me that was wrong and the reason I cant let go of the memory is because I failed the one I loved so much….ponder that ~!

True-to-Self

Stargazer,

I agree with you about people who seem to zap the life out of us. Besides lying there are other betrayals like not showing up when they said they would or not calling to apologize. I had a boyfriend who did this once. I broke up with him, but then got back together.

That seems to be my problem. I either give people the benefit of the doubt too often or forgiven too quickly. Since I am not dating now nor am I looking to, I am taking the time to heal. Part of that healing, I believe, is periodically a lot of anger comes out. I seem to “get it later”. What I used to believe was that a person could not steal from me if I gave them whatever it is they took. (I mean I conciously would tell myself that they didn’t steal from me because I gave it to them – like forgiving in advance.) I never made loans but gave them what they needed if I thought I could afford it. If they took advantage of me, I felt that they would feel guilty later because they would know the truth. I am just now starting to absorb the fact that since they have no concience they don’t feel guilty and never will. During a years time I was actually stolen from not only by my spath boyfriend but by a painter I hired to paint my bathroom. He was very tricky in that I gave him cash to by materials, but when he finished the job he didn’t figure the cash into the total amount that I then wrote a check for. I have learned the hard way by making some very expensive mistakes. It was not that I was stupid, but I just didn’t have enough guts to actually stand up to that painter. He was talking quicker than Harold Hill from The Music Man.

TTS

True-to-Self

Hens,

I posted over you. I can identify as I believe that sometimes about my ex husband. I think that maybe I drove him away because I acted like my mother. Now that is a scary thought. I may have behaved like her a little, but my exhusband’s verbal abuse and gaslighting far outweighed any thing I may have done or said to him.

Hens, let yourself off the hook.

TTS

hens

TTS – Thanks for comment..Intellectually I know what happened, it doesnt take a brain surgeon, just a dumbass to put the pieces together…but all in all I would rather continue working on improving myself, as i have said Life Lesson…

True-to-Self

Hens,

It is so hard sometimes. Even though we want to improve ourselves and know that that is the only thing that will work, there are other times that we want instant romance.

Remember, though, that that is what got us in trouble in the first place. 🙂

hens

Yes, but it has more to do with regret’s than wanting romance, I dont believe romance will ever happen for me, not now, or at least i dont’t want to go there ever again..

geminigirl

This is a good slogan or mantra for us all, maybe we can pin or stick it in every room in the house, including the loo!
“I may not be rich, but Im rich in LIFE!!
Im SANE Im SAFE, and Im SPATH_FREE!!!
TOWANDA for ME!!!
Love,
Mama gem.
Plus, every time we read it, we read it aloud!!
And do a little spath- free dance!!

hens

Hi Gem – your no poet but what you say is right on

geminigirl

I AM a Poet, actually, hens, have had a few published, Ill send you some if you like!
Love,
GemXX

hens

I would love to read your poems Gem….

geminigirl

Hens, Ive just posted you a link to some of my better Poems!
Love,
GemXX

one/joy_step_at_a_time

Hens – “So sometimes I judge myself and am scared to death maybe it was me that was wrong and the reason I cant let go of the memory is because I failed the one I loved so much”.ponder that ~! ‘

we only failed ourselves hens. no one else.

True-to-Self

“We only failed ourselves hens, no one else.”

Very profound One/joy

I have been feeling lately like I just want to tell my mother that, yes everything she said about me or predicted about me was true. I am failing at this that and the other. The truth is I am getting a few health problems that stem from “not getting that weight off.”

She has been projecting her weight issues onto me for some 30 years now. Instead of her being right, I have to realize that because of self-defeating rebellion I proved her right.

But is she right? No. She may be “right” about a lot of things, but she is a mean, nasty, judgmental, critical person with a beautiful house and wonders why no one wants to visit.

We all need to start taking care of ourselves…….and I mean right now.

TTS

Ox Drover

Dear TTS,

Well, my health issues related to weight—and smoking—etc. I AM CORRECTING….I quit smoking nearly two years ago, and I have lost 30+ pounds and am on a low sodium diet as well as a lower calorie one….and I realize it is a LIFE STYLE CHANGE not just a “diet” for a short time. I have a CHOICE to live a healthy life or a short and sick one. My choice. I can dig my grave with a spoon, or I can choose to eat right, exercise and be healthy. I am choosing to do the things that are healthy for me.

I think the things in which we don’t live up to our own expectations are things in which most of the time those expectations are for “perfection” and we feel if we don’t meet being “perfect” we are not good enough. WELL, NEWS FLASH!!!! We do not have to be perfect to be “good enough” or “acceptable” or “OK”—

Funny thing has always been I never expected others to be perfect, but I expected ME TO BE PERFECT and I darn well know I am NOT perfect. In fact, I know a lot of things about Oxy that are LESS THAN PERFECT, that are even LESS THAN NICE…and I hold every one of those things AGAINST HER, but if I knew the same things about YOU, I’d give you a slide on it….wellllllll….that’s the way I use’ta be anyway. Now, I’m giving old Oxy Gal some slack.. Nope, she’s not perfect, but she is also a pretty good old gal and she makes mistakes but her heart is good. Now she is learning to take care of herself first and that’s a good thing, and cutting herself some slack! That’s also a good thing. I’m no longer judging Oxy so harshly! But I am also NO longer making excuses for OTHER PEOPLE’S BAD, NASTY, AND MEAN BEHAVIOR.

ps: It is too late for me to “die young”– but I still have a chance to live to be really old as well as judgmental and crabby! LOL

seriously

Need some help here. I have posted before but have not posted in quite some time. im asking for your help now. my ex sociopath and myself co own a vehicle together. we are both on the title and loan. i have given him one year to refinance w no cooperation. I have a buyer for the vehicle. He is currently driving the vehicle. He will not give me the truck, keys or sign off on the title unless I sign a document stating he has no financial responsibility for vehicle debt or other outstanding debt. I need the vehicle returned to me. I am on the main line of responsibility and he is a co owner. I have keys to the vehicle and all paperwork. What can I do?

seriously

Oxdrover….any advice. You are wise.

Ox Drover

Dear Seriously,

Sounds like he is trying to hold you up using the vehicle as a “gun.”

I am not an attorney. I suggest you contact an attorney.

That said. If you are on the title, and if you have keys, there is no legal reason that I know of (remember I am not an attorney) that you could not legally put your key in that vehicle and drive it off.

Being able to sell it without his signature is another matter and will depend on HOW THE TITLE IS TERMED. Is it “John AND Sue Smith” or is it John OR Sue Smith”—-my understanding is that if it is AND you cannot sell it or transfer title to it without his signature but if it is OR either of you can sell or transfer it…..SUBJECT TO PAYING OFF THE LIEN HOLDER. In order to get a clear and free title, you (or you and he) will have to sign off the title AT the loan holder’s and take any money paid for the vehicle and pay off the loan immediately.

Most of the time if a bank has a lien on the title they either keep hold on the original title itself and you only have a registration certificate not a title, and after you send them the money to pay off the loan, they send you a signed and clear title…but each state may vary. If you don’t pay off the ENTIRE amount owed on the vehicle at the time you sell it, they will not let you sell it.

So, if you can find the car and get into it and drive it away, I would suggest that you do just that and hide it where he cannot find it while you check about selling it and paying off the loan.

Be careful though. And, GOOD LUCK!

seriously

I have a lawyer but we are at the beginning stage. I am scared that if I find and get the vehicle he will never cooperate with signing the title over. Our sheriffs department told me legally I could drive off w the vehicle but it cannot be on his private property. As you know if you don’t play by a sociopaths rules the game gets uglier. Should I hold something over his head that I think may get him to comply or play by my rules? Or is it not worth it?

Ox Drover

Dear Seriously,

Not sure…. don’t know what the legal angles are and don’t know him…you just never know what they will do. Sometimes if you get a “retraining order” against them it will make them leave you alone, sometimes it just makes them more determined to kill you.

You just need to play it by EAR and listen to your attorney.. YOU know him probably better than anyone…and so you just have to make a decision and do it.

ONE bit of advice I can give you is DO NOT TELL HIM WHAT YOU INTEND TO DO….Don’t get mad and pop off at him and pre-warn him. LOL (been there and done that!) LOL

I would communicate with him ONLY in writing—no name calling or anything like that—and preferably only through the attorney.

If he is trying to get you to “cooperate” by holding the vehicle hostage you can bet before it is over he will do something else that is pretty cheety!

Also, I don’t know how much money is involved, it might be worth it to just blow it off, but keep in mind that if he keeps the car and does NOT pay the loan each month, YOU will have to in order to keep your credit. Or another option is just to let the bank repo the vehicle…especially if you think your credit is going to be ruined anyway.

I wish you the best of luck. Keep on reading here and learning, it is the only way we can truly heal from these monsters. (((hugs)))

hens

If vehicle is in both names and payment’s are being made then your in a pickle. If the vehicle is not worth alot I would get my name removed from title and walk away…

candy

Seriously – sounds like he is using the vehicle as a trophy and a link to keep you hooked. I have no knowledge of the legal system but Ox’s advice sounds good.

Ox Drover

Hens, most lenders (especially in these days) will NOT remove one person’s name from a lien just in case the other person doesn’t pay up. Lenders don’t care WHO has the property as long as ONE PERSON (at least) makes the payments.

That’s the problem with JOINT property….or co-signing for someone. States with community property marital property laws and all that complicate matters too. The psychopaths can usually find some loop hole to screw the partner through though….

Part of the problem is that they de-fraud you by getting you to GIVE them things or take responsibility for them (co-signing etc) so the responsible party ends up having to pay in order to protect their credit rating, etc. With the economy in the shape it is in now, it is difficult enough to get credit for anything like a house or car and impossible if your rating is bad, so it might be worth it to pay (if it isn’t tooooo much) just in order to keep the credit rating intact, but my guess is that this is JUST GETTING STARTED….like Seriously said, it’s in the early stages yet.

skylar

Seriously,
I tried to post this but it disappeared, I think.

To beat a spath you have to understand how they think.
They do what they do to make us suffer and no other reason. Your spath like the fact that it eats you up inside to pay for a car that you can’t use. And yet, you CONTINUE TO DO IT. He feels he has your strings and he can manipulate them. happy happy spath, gloating over your position between a rock and a hard space. The spath can’t really be put in that position because his motivations are not like ours: he will happily cut off his nose just to spite his own face. WHO DOES THAT? A SPATH.

To backspath him, you have to not care about your credit and let the bank REPO the car from him. Talk to your loan officer and perhaps you will get a sympathetic one. Explain that he is a spath who will not pay for the car he has. Therefore you will not be paying for it anymore. If they REPO it they will sell it at auction and make very little. But maybe they will be happy to sell it to you again for the amount you owe on it??? might be worth a shot because it’s a win/win for the bank and you, but a lose for the parasite. if they don’t want to sell it to you, you can buy it at auction yourself. Just keep track of all the auto auction houses in your area – they list vehicles online. Eventually your car will pop up.

You have to think outside the box when dealing with spaths.

Depending on how much you owe and the value of the car, this could work out better than what you are doing now, which is providing free car and free supply to the spath. If you keep giving him supply, he will never detach. he is addicted to you.

hens

Sky – that’s what I did, I thot screw good credit I got to get this parasite out of my life…good credit just get’s you in debt anyway…so life goes on….hell most car dealerships will sell you a car with bad credit anyhow these days…

Ox Drover

Henry, there are those of us who have worked hard to keep our credit scores good…and are still not in debt.. I don’t owe a swinging cent to a swinging soul, but I want to keep my credit score good because I never know when I might NEED IT.

There are several professions too where you must have a good credit score or you can’t get a job…or a security clearance…as far as buying a car at a “tote the note lot,” sometimes that’s no great deal! LOL

So each person’s situation is different depending on where they live, what they do for a living, what they own, what they owe on it, can they pay it off, and so on….just like Star’s X BF, the P got in some BIG trouble with the military for adultery, where as many jobs don’t care if you are screwing around on you wife or husband, but in the military it is a big deal—-SO IS NOT PAYING YOUR BILLS if you are in the military or not paying your child support, etc. So each case is different.

I just read an article the other day bout a 35 yr old woman arrested for having sex with a 17 year old guy. In that state, the “age of consent” is 16 so she wouldn’t have been in trouble except SHE WAS A TEACHER and because of that, him being one of her students, she had done a NO NO, and got arrested for a FELONY. If she hadn’t been a teacher, it wouldn’t have been ANY DEAL, much less a big one. Now, she is facing FELONY TIME.

Reputation, credit scores, and a lot of things, make a difference in how you have to handle things in order to get/keep your job, your home, etc. or are ever able to buy a house again.

seriously

He has been paying me each month for the vehicle and insurrance. My concern is getting my name off the loan and title with him. hes made payments for one year so hes mad bc hes losing thT money if i sell it. i have given him 1 full year to refinance and he cant w out a co signer and cant by himself. i have the full amount secured for truck if neede3d and a buyer. i have several plabs but he will not give me the vehicle back. he wants me to have to keep contacting him every month to get the payments. It’s a game to him. I want him out of my life.

hens

Ox I admire you and your hard earned credit score. Suzie Orman say’s the american dream is to rent, not own a house these days…My home as humble as it is is almost paid for. As for my reputation, well that is another topic…
But my point along with sky’s is that after identity theft, fraud and being conned some of us have no other choice but to start over…I have decent credit but I want to buy a yacht and cruise around the world, will you co-sign for me please?

seriously

He wants to play by his rules. He wants to keep paying me monthly for 4 years. Hell no.

seriously

Thanks ladies. I’ll keep you posted. My attorney is calling him Monday. I just want the vehicle back and I pray he will sign the title over.

hens

seriously – and then there is the issue of insurance, you could also be held accountable…I am so sorry your in this mess – I would get an attorney..many of us are guilty of doing what you did, what a fricken nitemare – i hope you find a solution..

seriously

Oct is correct. I have a high profile job and am well respected in my community. I have to be careful how I conduct my affairs. Also I have very good credit and I am not taking a hit on it bc I fell in love w a sociopath.

Ox Drover

JUST THOUGHT OF SOMETHING….

On the insurance. If you are not driving the car, the insurance company may be legally able to VOID the policy and call it fraud….especially if he is not living at the same residence with you… and there is a wreck where he is at fault.there are some TRICKY clauses to this kind of thing. Once when I was living in Florida (HIGH insurance rates!!!) I had to actually cancel my kids’ drivers licenses in order not to pay like $1,200 A MONTH for LIBALITY ONLY insurance even if I did NOT cover them or let them drive, as long as they lived in the house with me and had drivers licenses….by cutting up their licenses and canceling them, I saved like $1,100 a month! I had to drive them everywhere though…and of course the P son stole the car in the middle of the night and drove it anyway to rob our friends’ business….but you might want to check on this.

Hens, darling, I couldn’t qualify for a row boat with my income level, so the answer is it WOULDN’T HELP YOU if I co-signed, the answer would still be NO! LOL

When I got divorced the first time there was no “equal credit” score, the husband (at that time I was a stay at home mom) had the credit and the job. I worked really hard to establish credit, and I worked my butt off to keep it, and to build my paid for house with my own two little hands—and believe me I learned to do a lot and can finish sheet rock with the best of ’em! And plumb, and paint and wall paper and other stuff too. Once I finally got all the debt paid off on everything I owed, I did my best to not get back into debt again! But who knows, I might NEED to some time or other. So, I would like to protect my credit since if I did lose it at this age, I would never be able to get it back.

BTW my “reputation” in this community is as a nut-job who abuses her pitiful little old egg donor! LOL If you don’t believe it just ask her! LOL

Yea, the insurance thing is another part of it too…and believe me I KNOW about that one. That is why I dropped that “guy” when he just couldn’t understand why I wouldn’t let him take an illegal joy ride in my little plane…sheesh, talk about hanging yourself out to DRY!!! And there was NOTHING in it for me for sure except RISK, RISK, and MORE RISK!

I drive older vehicles and just carry liability insurance, but believe me, I carry HIGH liability insurance not just the minimum. I can stand to lose a $3,000 car/truck, but if someone gets hurt and they sue me and I don’t have enough insurance to cover it, and an insurance co lawyer to defend it, I AM OUT TO DRY—I’m insurance “pore,” but I couldn’t sleep at night without it.

Fortunately, I haven’t had to use the insurance much, but just want to be protected. It is like a fire extinguisher– you may not use it often, but dang, when you need it, you NEED IT NOW! Same with other things too, like defensive weapons. LOL

Yea, dealing with a psychopath is a night mare–when your credit is tied up with them, your finances, etc. whatever it is, they can get their hooks into you and make you suffer. Cost you money to just get away from them. That “summer of chaos” that I spent running from the psychopaths and the stuff they were pulling cost me a great deal of what I had saved, but in the end, it saved my life I do believe, so I guess whatever it cost it was cheap at twice the price! LOL

Getting away from the psychopaths is an important thing for us to do….whatever it costs, but I think the best thing is to CUT THE COSTS as LOW as possible without staying hooked into them.

seriously

I would pay a pretty penny just to be free of him. They are no good and are a waste of space on this planet. When our relationship finally reached the end I asked him why he cheated on me and he told me the only person he had to answer to was God. I told him I would love to hear that conversation and also told him he does not want to have a conversation with God because it would not go well.

Ox Drover

Seriously,

LOL I am like you, I’d like to be a fly on the wall with that conversation, I don’t think it would go well either. LOL

Were you married to him? I hope that your attorney can give you some advice that can get you free of this parasite reasonably quickly and reasonably cheaply.

Since your name is on the title and you can get in (or your AGENT can get it) and drive it off you may actually have to hire a re-po argent to snag the car when it is off his property (like if he drives it to work or whatever) and your attorney should be able to tell you if that is legal or not.

I am gonna bet it IS LEGAL to hire someone to go get it for you off of a public street or parking place…and probably wouldn’t cost that much either, and in the long run might be worth it. At least you could hide it in a storage space somewhere and keep him from having it IF YOU MUST HAVE HIS SIGNATURE TO SELL IT. Tit for tat, at least!

I wouldn’t worry too much about him being pissed off and NOT COOPERATING–he isn’t cooperating NOW so what have you got to lose? LOL With him pulling this carp I don’t think he is likely to START cooperating. He probably has no other way to get wheels so is going to hold on to these as long as he can. Good luck! (((hugs)))

YesIt'sMe

Dear LF Family,
I only have a minute to write, but I’ll write more tomorrow.
I just found out last nite that J did finally answer to God….
he hung himself in Mexico on 2/22/11.

I have a lot to unpack here, but the only emotional image I have is like one from a movie, of a dark door slowly closing in the distance…….[picture fade]……The End.

I have no tears to cry…..I think I cried out all the available hydrogen in my being in the months after he walked out….now he’s walked out the final door….&, looking back, I have to realize my depression had Suddenly lifted back around the end of February…..I had attributed it to several other things…..now I feel that his walking out his last door left me free to live the rest of my life without anger or pain because of what he did. Maybe it’s because we don’t (I can’t) let people leave the planet without my forgiveness…..or maybe the image of the door closing which immediately came into my mind when I got the news was his way of telling me I’m free now.

I treasure all your love & support. LF has helped me come to this place, & I can see the sun rising over the horizon.

Any thots, links, theories about sociopath suicide would be appreciated.

seriously

After Monday we will know my plan. I have several good ideas. My spath was with me for 2.5 years. I found out literally over night while in the bath tub and doing some thinking. It hit me…I was like oh my God his degree didn’t come in the mail bc he never went to college. I called the University and I was right. He lied to me about school, lied on resumes, stole my credit card for porn, called in prescriptions, stole pills from my family, ( WE WERE PRESCRIBED OUR MEdS. WE ARE NOT UNHEALTHY PEOPLE) We moved in together and got an engagement ring. Electronics, furniture and vehicle all in my name. I did a background check and he had a felony for stealing a car. Long story short. I got out. The only thing left is the vehicle.

seriously

Yesitsme…I’m sorry be strong. I’m too angry to give you advice bc I would hVe mean word vomit come out. I don’t know your story. Staystrong.

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