By | April 28, 2012 93 Comments

Born bad

Two young girls adopted by a loving British couple took after their criminal biological mother. For the adoptive parents, it was a disaster.

Read When Cherry adopted these ‘angelic’ sisters she thought a loving home would heal the wounds of their troubled past. how terrifyingly wrong she was, on

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I saw this story a few days ago when the Daily Mail first published it. I’m glad you posted it here, Donna. It’s an important one to educate the public about the incorrigibility of psychopathic behavior.

The story of how Maryann, at only three years of age, brutally dismembered her dolls and gouged out their eyes could have come straight from the script of a horror movie. It’s a perfect example of Life imitating Art. But it also reminds me in real life of how Ted Bundy, at the same tender age of three, planted knives in his aunt’s bed as if he were acting out a death wish toward her.

Cherry’s story is a very sad one, and goes to show how much damage a psychopath can inflict on others even as a child. Cherry and her husband John should have had an idyllic marriage living in their beautiful dream home with their two adopted daughters to make their family complete. Instead, the stress of trying to care for Maryann broke up their marriage, and Cherry ended up living in (comparative) poverty with ruined health: a fate the poor lady never deserved. (We’re not told what happened to John.)

Unfortunately when it came down to the fundamental disagreement that disrupted their marriage—about the “best” parenting approach to take toward Maryann—both of them were wrong. It wouldn’t have made any difference whether they’d taken the “kinder, more nurturing” approach that Cherry believed in, or the stricter measures that John was advocating. Neither approach would have corrected Maryann’s intolerable behavior. The couple’s marriage foundered on an insoluble problem—in part because neither of them realized the problem was insoluble.

There are lessons to be learned from this. One, I think, is the necessity for couples to put their marriage first, and make sure that’s strong, before they tackle issues related to child raising. Children should never be permitted to become a wedge that drives a couple apart.

But there are other, more public issues too. In particular, it’s nothing short of outrageous that Cherry was unable to get the specialist help she needed to cope with Maryann. This is disgraceful for at least three separate reasons.

For one, I’d blow my top if some idiot told me that a child “causing mayhem” was not a matter for concern—not unless the child was doing something this idiot thought was “really bad”… like “smoking,” for instance. SMOKING??? For God’s sake, do these MORONS have ANY sense of proportion? I’m not pretending smoking is healthy, but there is nothing pathological about kids experimenting with things like smoking. And as they get into their teen years, “experimenting” is virtually a way of life. They’ll try beer, they’ll try pot. (To say nothing of sex!) This may not be “good,” and prompts a lot of finger-wagging from grownups, but none of it means a kid is on the road to hell unless it develops into a larger problem. That some blockhead would imagine “smoking” is somehow a “more serious” problem that Maryann’s plainly pathological behavior is nothing but an obsession of the wretched neurotic antismoking nazis. This is turn is just one tiny reflection of the far more widespread idiocy of “political correctness” that’s been ruining Britain for at least half a generation or more. There are too many brainless fools like that in positions of power whose values are entirely upside down in a plethora of ways, from the “Elf ‘n’ Safety” nuts to the clowns who let dangerous criminals go free. Britain would be vastly improved if the whole lot of them were lined up against a wall and shot, and replaced with ordinary people with plain common sense.

Apart from that detail, it’s also disgraceful that Cherry and her husband were, in effect, blamed by the health system for their adopted daughter’s pathological behavior. If the only “help” they could get was “lectures on parenting techniques,” while nobody would recommend that the child be examined by a specialist, that’s tantamount to saying there’s nothing wrong with the girl herself, so her bad conduct must be her adoptive parents’ fault.

However, that also indicates a third and more basic problem: namely, a refusal by the health “services” to recognize psychopathy in a child. Obviously those responsible need educating on the subject.

It may not be taking matters too far to speculate that the same “political correctness” could be partly responsible for this head-in-the-sand attitude. Namely, the “liberal” obsession with social constructionism at the expense of ignoring genetic and physiological factors governing human behavior—or pretending those factors don’t exist. Much of that overemphasis on “nurture,” at the cost of ignoring Nature altogether, is rooted in wishful thinking. For instance, plenty of people don’t want to believe that a child might actually be “born evil.” So they go into denial about it and strain reality to construct alternative explanations for the child’s awful behavior. Some people need their noses rubbed in reality before they’ll accept it.

I was sorry to read that Cherry herself has still not fully accepted this reality. Cherry is still saying even today: “They’re not evil children, they are just children who never got proper medical and psychiatric help, despite our requests. I still feel guilty for putting them both back into care and wonder if there was more I could have done.” I can’t speak for Nicola of course, whose problems are less severe, and who may well have suffered from unwitting neglect when so much attention was heaped on her sister Maryann. But I have little doubt that Maryann took after her criminal mother genetically, and there’s not a lot that anyone could have done for her. It’s sad that Cherry is still tempted to blame herself after all these years for something that was never her fault. I hope she does eventually wake up, accept reality, and dump that burden of useless guilt.



Your post is so good, being in agreement with you. This poor mother’s life was derailed by her two adopted daughters. She has been through the mill, deserving the public’s compassion and support. No way would I ever adopt a child unless I knew the background of the parents (too risky). I would love it if someone would get in touch with Cherry, letting her know that her oldest child, Maryann, fits the profile of a psychopath, giving her some much needed and deserved information.



I caught a repeat showing of Toy Story on TV the other week.

The bad kid next door dismembered dolls, gouged their eyes out, reassembled the toys in grotesque ways, and blew up things for the pleasure of destroying them.

I hadn’t seen Toy Story in years. It almost became uncomfortable watching that behavior knowing what I know now.

In real life, I have a friend with two special needs children out of three. She said that she woke up one morning with the worst one standing next to her bed. He was three-years-old at the time. He was glaring at her and her husband. The little boy growled, “I wish you were dead.”

Fortunately, my friend wasn’t one of those parents who would dismiss that as a little kid acting funny. She knew something was seriously wrong and got him help.

To her credit, that child, although he has many problems, got a lot of his behavior under control. He is on medication, has been in and out of a children’s psychiatric hospital, and goes to a school that can treat his condition.

He’ll never be normal. They don’t kid themselves what he is and what he is capable of doing. She fully expects that the day will come when he will be too unmanageable to stay at home and will end up spending his adulthood in some sort of group home.

His standing next to their bed that morning was her wake-up call. I wish there were more parents like that.

I have another friend whose granddaughter is psychopath (based on what she has described.) I told her that there was help available, and even suggested that she look in what Dr. Leedom has to offer.

No go. She blames the mother (her daughter.) She thinks the daughter needs to pay more attention to her kids and stop thinking about meeting a new man.

She told me a lot about this little girl and what she does.

The problem isn’t the mother. The child is a P. If anything, I think the mother was trying to get away from the monster because she didn’t know how to handle her.

They make no excuses for her. “She’s got problems.” They recognize that. They simply refuse to consider anything like psychopathy. It’s too over the top for them. They’re chasing down other things. There is lots of ADHD in the family so they’re thinking it might be something like that.

The grandmother is very religious. She prays a lot. She told me that she keeps asking God for guidance. I answered that maybe Dr. Leedom’s book is God’s answer. Nope.

She actually told me that she’s not ready to consider something like that. “Ready” left me hopeful. Maybe I planted a seed.


Excellent analysis, Redwald.

Good work, G1S. Hopefully you did plant a seed.


What most people seem to forget (or don’t acknowledge) is that ALL these P/N/A ADULTS . . . (i.e., parents, co-workers, bosses, criminals) were once P/N/A CHILDREN.


Oh Sarah999!! You’re so right! LOL 🙁


To me, it is clearly obvious that the children inherited their mothers psychopathic personality. And further . . the reason so many adopted children don’t do well in their adoptive homes, is because their birth parents had personality problems, which the children inherited.
It is NOT (in most cases), because they were in other homes.
Plain and simple . . disordered personalities (i.e.,N/P/A etc) are inherited! It’s been scientifically proven in twins studies!


Yeah, and in a lot of cases if not most, the kids are put up for adoption BECAUSE the parents have problems so the kids are definitely inheriting the parent’s genes. I am not against adoption by any means. I think it’s wonderful when people are willing to adopt, but it’s a gamble…you just never know what you are getting. Even when you decide to have your own biological children, if there is mental illness or spath, narcissistic, or any other kind of personality disorders in the genes, you are taking a risk even with your own child.


I found what my friend said to me about her granddaughter in an email dated August 2010. The child had just turned six.

Within the past couple of months, the little girl has smeared feces twice on the walls, took a knife and threatened “to chop off” the head of another child (laughing while she said this,) and this past week yanked the penis on a dog so hard that the grandmother feared the dog would whip around and snap at the child.

The grandmother called the local children’s psychiatric hospital, which unfortunately is the same place that released my son to my P sister, but they are the best of what we have in the area.

They wouldn’t comment other than to say that the little girl should probably be evaluated. My friend thanked them and said that told her enough.


This is a truly heartbreaking story. This poor mother lost everything…her marriage, her home and the children whom she loved and wanted to take care of. It was chilling when I read the part about going into the little girl’s room and she was destroying her dolls…yikes!! So sad.



If that little girl was doing stuff like that at six years old, she definitely has some psychiatric issues. She’s only eight years old now. Is she still just as bad?


this story is really something. Redwald said it all, actually. I really feel for the mom who apparently has not figured it out and is still at least partly blaming herself, thinking if only this child could have received “services” all would have turned out well.

I am very interested in learning what the research is at this time, on adoptions and twin studies… anyone have links to those?

I find myself wondering, what the world (U.S. and U.K. at least) would be like, if everyone realized and admitted 1) the genetic basis for psychopathy and 2) how untreatable this is.

(I was in a conversation with a friend today, coincidentally, about this very topic. He absolutely refused to believe that genetics had ANYTHING to do with a family we both know, who have (now adults) a bio daughter who is normal, and adopted boy-girl twins, who are sadistic — he thinks it is the trauma of their adoption from the orphanage when infants, or that the children’s father liked to play one child off against another. In other words — parenting or adoption “trauma” — no, genetics couldn’t possibly have anything to do with it — my friend still believes in a blank slate, apparently…) why do so many people persist in believing that?

I guess I mean — I would like to know how far we have come in figuring out how to tell, at how early of an age, that someone is a psychopath. I know that it is not politically correct to write children off as irredeemable.

I do think it is wishful thinking. All of it — the denial of it. Refusal to recognize evil. Always looking for someone to blame. The mother, the father, the parenting techniques, the failure of the social services system to intervene and support… sigh. Nope, genetics can’t possibly have anything to do with it.

There are many reasons children are given up for adoption. Certainly, there are many normal children who are adopted, and many adoptive families where all turns out well. But it is logical that the percentage of kids given up for adoption who have genes tending towards psychopathic traits would be higher. Why does this idea seem so far-fetched to so many people? (and what about sperm banks or egg donors?)

the sisterhood

20 Years- I often find myself questioning if a baby can be born bad. As a society, we have been told either by the bible or by social norms that children are innocent and pure. It is hard to break this belief system because it is so ingrained in our society.

It seems so unfair and cruel that children would be inflicted by such evil through no fault of their own. It is something very difficult to wrap your head around.

I do agree, being an adopted child myself, that very early experiences even at infancy, can influence our mind set and maybe trigger the genetic component to all kids of disorders. I was neglected as a baby and even kidnapped and held at gunpoint by my biological psychopathic father when I was under a year old. I don’t “remember” these things consciously, but there is a sadness within me that I think comes from a very primitive place. I have always been “needy” of affection.

One and maybe even a few of my biological siblings have gotten the Psychopathy gene. One in particular is a flat out sociopath. I was the only one adopted, so maybe nurture does play a role in some of this.

Ox Drover

Part of the problem too, is that professionals won’t agree on a NAME FOR PSYCHOPATHY, or the CRITERIA for psychopathy, and they say a person below age 18 can’t be diagnosed as a psychopath, and also you can’t diagnose someone over 18 as a psychopath unless he has had a diagnosis of conduct disorder prior to age 18…DUH…on the dark of the moon but only if it is thursday or you play tiddly winks first…..WTF??

When are professionals going to realize that there are kids who are “the bad seed”? Kids who start to show pathological signs and symptoms at an EARLY age.

I have worked with kids as young as age 10 in inpatient settings that there is NOW WAY I would have ever gone to sleep in the same house with those kids unless someone was watching over them.

That poor Nurse in Tennessee who sent the adopted kid back to russia had a case of that kind of a kid. There are some kids who by age 8 or 10 there is no way one couple can control them and work and sleep. The kids have a GLEE at destruction and being out of control that is blood chilling.

Of course not every child that is a “hand full” at age 8 or 10 grows up to be Ted Bundy or Charlie Manson, but many of them DO wind up in prison…repeatedly.

Yes, this story is sad, it is also bone chilling.



My psychiatrist at least pointed out to me at the end of my in-take at the start of my therapy last year that I was to consider myself lucky for not having a child with my ex-spath, and stressing the genetic reason for it. She literally told me that I was saved from having a sword of Damocles hanging above my head regarding what my child otherwise may have inherited. So, she admitted the importance of genetics to me, and it’s the main reason why I knew she confirmed my suspicion about my ex: that he’s a psychopath.

Alas a lot of professionals are not convinced that genetics may never be overrun by nurturing. They believe in the exception myth, even though they’d otherwise admit that temperamental identity is what you were born with and that it never will alter, even that it’s unhealthy to alter it.

I guess it’s the same mythical belief as our beliefs that we thought that our love could make a difference in the spath we loved. We thought that someone, the right person with the right attitude, can make a difference.

As for those who belief a newborn baby is a clean slate… those are often people who in my experience have little contact with toddlers. It’s clear as day imo that if you spend some time with a toddler (especially if they are siblings) over an extended period that they have their own unique personality they were born with and you can almost predict what they most probably will be pursuing for say a career as an adult.


Reading what you wrote about your childhood’s first year makes me feel sad with you. Thanks for having the courage to write that, and I’m sorry your start in life was so difficult.


I think it was in Scott Peck’s book “The Road Less Travelled” or “People of the Lie” he states that we are all born being natural liars and theifs. It’s amazing(Grace of God) any of us turn out ‘good’ at all.

Yes, when you ask the toddler who has crumbs all over his mouth and clothes ‘did you eat that cookie’ He’ll deny it evern tho the evidence it right there..


I have a number of friends about my age who were adopted. One of them has a sister who is the biological offspring of her parents, and a brother who was also adopted. The brother is a bi-polar malignant narcissist, the sister is a full-blown socipath, and the friend has a number of emotional issues that she’s trying to manage. The parents are both gone. The mother was nurturing and very protective of all of the children. The father was a heartless spath that played very nasty head games.

When we’re conversing about her siblings, it is always disturbing to me that the sister seems (by all descriptions) to be a female carboned copy of the father.

I think that knowing that Ted Bundy and other noted psychopaths were once children does not help to understand spathy/psychopathy, at all. Whether it’s nature or nurture, children who demonstrate obvious symptoms of spathy/psychopathy are truly terrifying. I think that, because they are “CHILDREN,” it is much easier to live in denial of that fact than to “do something” about it. What could possibly “be done” to intervene?

This, I believe, is the bottom line: even if a clear diagnosis of spathy/psychopathy could be rendered, what good would it possibly do for any child? Anyone ever seen the movie, “Bad Seed?” There were clear indications that the9-year old character, “Rhoda,” was a psychopath. The mother recognized this and took a desperate step to end her daughter’s life (and, her own) to prevent Rhoda from murdering, again. “Bad Seed” is, IMHO, the first and BEST screened depiction of a child psychopath, to date. I highly recommend this movie to everyone who has had exposure to a sociopath, and to everyone who has not.

The characters interact in precisely the same manner as people do in Real Life. The mother suspects that something is amiss with her daughter when Rhoda says, “I don’t feel any way, at all,” when her mother tries to comfort her after hearing the news about the drowning death of one of Rhoda’s classmates. The well-meaning neighbor dismisses Rhoda’s glib remarks, demands, and comments as coming from a “girl who knows what she wants and isn’t afraid to ask for it.” The absentee father is seduced and manipulated by his beautiful daughter’s parroted response to what she would give for a basketful of hugs, “I’ll give YOU a basket of kisses.” Or, vice versa.

There is no “cure” or treatment for sociopathy. There is no litmus strip that turns blue to conclusively diagnose sociopathy. And, the greater majority of socipaths never commit murder but they certainly leave a wake of emotional, physical, and financial carnage.

There is no clearcut answer to child sociopathy. Some indications are that they can learn to mimic “normal” social interactions, successfully, but only if they are raised in a strictly specific environment. “Good intentions” and unconditional love do not factor into this – since spaths do not “feel” either shame, remorse, or empathy, they do not respond to good intentions or love.

What a sad, sad story I gather this article is – it wouldn’t load, but Rewald’s initial comment rather gave the gist. How very, very sad.


Louise, I haven’t been in touch with my friend on the subject of her granddaughter. She doesn’t want to talk about it. That happened soon after we had that discussion. I respect her boundary.

Darwinsmom, I’m a bit worried about the children that my son might have given the Ps in my family and that his father is a P. My son is fine, but we know how genetics work.

Ana, there is a theory that children lie when caught red-handed because even though they know that they did something wrong, they feel guilty. They lie not to get away with something, but to re-set things back to what they wished they had done.


G1S, the lying theory does make some sense – typically, when a child is caught in a lie, they experience harsh consequences. But, what I find interesting about adult spaths is that they’ve discovered how to circumnavigate the outright “lie” and they will find a grain of truth and build an elaborate hoax on that one grain of truth. Therefore, they avoid being guilty of lying (per se) and are, in their warped universe, telling the “truth.”


NOBODY DOUBTS that dogs and horses etc are bred for disposition (& skills) that they INHERIT. Think golden retrievers vs. pit bulls.
We are animals and we also inherit our disposition and skills.
Those psychologist that don’t believe this are idiots . . . and yes, they inherited their idiocy!


Sarah999, LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Inherited Idiocy??? LMAO!



Yes, genetics can skip a few generations. When I was a child the family joke was that I was the spitting image of my mom in looks (and the genetics lector who was a colleague of my mom’s wanted to use us as an example; my paternal grandmother mistakenly thought a child pic of my mom was a pic of me), but the temperamental image of my dad. As I grrew up this became nuanced. I actually have several features of my father in my face and frame (but only for the real investigating eye). More, my mother at some point concluded that I was very much alike to my maternal grandfather when it comes to dreaminess, idealism, chaos, etc… (inherited his creativity too… he was an architect, and I’ve been going to art school since I was 5 and got a master in industrial design) She only realized how much I resembled my grandfather when it comes to functioning, coping and talents when I was past my mid 20s.


That reminds me of two things.

My paternal grandfather died two years before I was born. My father would often tell me how much I would have liked him because we were so much alike in personality.

In the other case, I was at a good friend’s house one day and looking at some antique photos of her family that she had put on her walls. There was one that was from the 1880s or so. I said, “Boy, there’s no doubt about (your brother) being part of this family.”

When she wondered what I meant, I pointed to a man in the group. “He looks like (your brother) got dressed up for a period picture.”

She was amazed. Then she told me that they had often kidded her brother about not being a member of the family at all because he didn’t look like anyone that they could think of.

Her brother was a clone of the man in the photo.

Ox Drover

I kept the female cattle from my original stock as I increased the size of my herd, and though they were all the same breed and my original stock all were half sisters, and of course each generation were half sisters as well (all of each generation having the same father) so these animals were closely bred, (with them being 3/4ths siblings to each other rather than just half sibs) Yet, I could tell by looking which “family” they came from from the original stock by looking at their faces.

In addition, I could also do so by how they behaved. I had one cow that her calves were always kickers, except her last calf, which I still have as a 10 year old cow who is very gentle and isn’t a kicker. The mother and even her sisters got culled from the herd. She was an “iffy”until she proved she was not a kicker.

You can take a calf that is “born wild” and tame it down some, I’ve seen it done, but it is very difficult. You can MORE EASILY take a calf that is born calm, and make it wild as a March Hare by abusing it. I think that with people too, you can tame down a difficult one by using the right tactics, and you can take a tame one and make it into a killer if you abuse it enough but I do think that there are general tendencies on how we are born just like there are with cattle, breeds of dogs, and horses. Any dog breeder can tell you which breed of dog is more likely to bite, and any cattle raiser can tell you which breeds of cattle are more calm than others—–and that’s why the bull fighters breed a distinct and dangerous breed of bull to put in the bull ring, rather than use some bull out of a farmer’s pasture.

Genetics has some influence on our personalities, but it is NOT everything, environment has some influence too.


Yep, Oxy ~

I find it somewhat amazing that we can see this so clearly in animal breeding and raising, yet, we find it so hard to believe in the human animal.

I often think of the famous bull from the bull riding circuit – “EVIL DOER”, about sums it up.


I know pit bull owners who love their dogs and repeatedly call them gentle. They get upset over people assuming pit bulls are vicious. They insist that they are trained to become that way by their owners.

We had a Siberian husky who died a few years ago. Yesterday, my son sent me a photo of a Siberian husky puppy that he saw in a pet shop. We spoke later on the phone. He was close to tears over remembering our husky and how much we both miss him.

We love that breed. I don’t know if we got a particular gentle dog, which was a male, but I’ve seen it said everywhere that huskies do not make good watch dogs. They think everybody loves them as much they love humans.


Oxy, I agree… environment is a large part of our personality and life makes for identity… and yet life is also about getting rid of the cultural and environmental stuff to get back to our identity chore, which is genetic.


Yep, a doctor told me years ago that we actually get our genes from our grandparents and not our parents hence the skipping a generation. I believe it…look around and notice how many people look like a grandmother or grandfather…interesting.


We get the genes from our parents who got it from our grandparents… but some of the genes are dominated and thus not visible, and yet they can still be passed on. In combination with other genes, these passed on, previously dominated genes suddenly aren’t dominated anymore and can become apparent.



Thanks for making that clear.

I go to a quaint little cupcake shop and there is a young girl who works there and she has the most beautiful blue eyes I have ever seen and she has dark hair. I complimented her on her eyes (never quite saw a color of blue like hers…can’t describe it) and I was just getting ready to ask her if both of her parents have blue eyes when she said, “Both of my parents have brown eyes!” Then she proceeded to tell me that she looks just like her grandmother eyes and all. I love the whole genetics thing…it’s so interesting to me.


There is more to this than “genes” per say. Epigenetics is a relatively new science that looks not a genes, but their expression. Thus, genetic expression can be altered without genetic modification and behaviors of a grandparent can effect grandchildren without any true genetic modification. From an evolutionary perspective, this makes a lot of sense, as true genetic modification can take many generations.

IMHO, a good deal of sociopathy is due to Epigenetic.


Anyone seen we need to talk about kevin…?



I haven’t seen that movie, but thought about it worth it?



Thanks for that post on epigenetics. I looked it up and it’s extremely interesting. I am going to study this more…

kim frederick

Joss, I read the book, shortly before comeing to LF, and couldn’t put it down. Very, very chilling.

When I first came here, I recommended the book. Then, as a reminder to myself, I googled it, and read the back cover and a few pages inside the book. As I recall it’s fiction, isn’t it? Anyway, what I found there was a tone, that implied parental responsibility…ie, nurture, and not much implication on the part of nature. When I read the book, it reenforced what I had come to believe about disordered children: that the parents were somehow to blame, but after reading post after post written by the parents of children just like Keven, who claim to have done everything right, I quit recommending the book. It is a good read, though, and does strikinly portray the infathomable evil that is incomprhensible coming from a child…utterly calculated.

Ox Drover

Different breeds of dogs and livestock are bred with different temperments and instincts for various purposes. You cannot take a Lab and make it into a sheep dog no matter how you train it or how young you start, it is a bird dog bred to do a specific kind of thing naturally…a Border collie is not going to make a good bird dog no matter how much you train it or how young you start.

You can’t take a wolf pup and take it away from its mother the second it is born and nurse it on a bird dog and make it a bird dog, or a sheep dog. It has taken hundreds of generations of SELECTIVE breeding to convert wolves into bird dogs, sheep dogs, rat killers, retrievers, bull fighters etc.

With cattle, some breeds have calm docile temperaments and some have very aggressive tendencies. That’s why the Spanish fighting breeds are not used for milking. LOL It just isn’t gonna work.

While the human race is more mongrel than we might like to admit, at least as far as our aggression, etc. is concerned, I think it has been pretty well proven with the twin studies if no other way, that temperament is somewhat genetic, and also that the EXPRESSION of most/all genes is also effected by environment.


OxD….yepper, a lab will never be a herding dog!

And, your last remark brings me to this: the discussion on “nature v. nurture” for me is a moot point. I know what I WISH were true, and that would be that sociopathy did not exist. But, it does. I don’t particularly like having to accept this fact, but it is fact nonetheless. It can’t be bred out of human beings, nor can it truly be successfully “taught” out of human beings. There’s no easy answer to the human condition.

So, since eradicating socipathy is out of the proverbial question, EDUCATION should be a cultural and societal priority. “Education” should begin at birth and throughout school years. NOT the kind of edumakashun that would have children terrified of the bogey man lurking behind every bush. The kind of education I’m talking about is setting boundaries and recognizing “toxicity” in other human beings. If we can recognize the toxicity, maybe we don’t have to stick around to confirm that someone is, indeed, a sociopath.

For me, it’s not a matter of why or how…’s simply a matter of “IS.”

Ox Drover


Part of it is too the MYTH that environment is everything in the way an adult turns out…the “there is good in everyone deep down” myth….the professionals who truly believe in this MYTH, and who try desperately to “save” these “misguided poor souls” unfortunately seem to be the majority in many of the helping professions—psychology, teaching, prison administration “do gooders”, political “do gooders” who want to throw money at this or that social program to “save” these people, etc.

It is like the LoveFraud version of the Emperor’s New Clothes, it just isn’t what the truth is. LOL the truth is too horrific for anyone to accept it except those few of us who have been victimized by it and realize what it is. The emperor is naked! There are people who have no conscience who can’t be helped, who are truly EVIL and all the love and head start programs in the schools and all the treatment programs in the prisons are not going to help.


The psychological profession has a lifelong annuity in believing (and fostering the belief) that all people are good (underneath) and that people can change with “enough” therapy. DU-UH!


If psychologists believed personality disorders were INHERITED and “etched in stone” . . . they would be out of a job. So selfishly . . . “they can’t handle the truth!”. Therefore WE (those who know better or are not in on the take), must do it for them.


and further . . . those that go to psychologists (the victims of personality disordered people) . . are in and of
themselves a substantial annuity for the psychologists.
But if they tell the victims . . the truth . . that they have a healthy reaction to psychopathic/narcissistic individuals . . . they might lose them as patients. Better to keep them in the dark.


or the psychologists make them think . . “it takes two” and the victim had a part in creating (or not properly handling) the personality disordered individual or the insanity. All to often, the victims only part, is the fact that they WERE THERE (i.e, targeted). You can’t CHANGE an insane relationship. You can get only get out (if possible).

Ox Drover


I agree that there are those professionals who make a living by ‘believing” that every mental problem can be “cured” or “treated successfully” and that is unfortunate.

Medicine changes SLOWLY. Physical medicine as well as mental medical practice. Freud has been proven pretty well wrong on much of what he thought…there was a lot of the brain and the mental wiring of it that was not known at the time that Freud started his theories…he could not have known that much of what he thought was correct was not. But yet, there are still people who practice “therapy’ based on Freud’s philosophies. Ditto Jung.

Back when the mainstream medical establishment thought that stomach ulcers were caused by “stress” a physician found that BACTERIA caused ulcers and that treating stomach ulcers with antibiotics would CURE them it took 12 years before mainstream medical science started to treat ulcers with antibiotics.

There was a great period of time when the baby was viewed by mainstream medical people as a “blank slate” and that environment was what made a person what they ultimately became. Of course we know now that is not true, that there are genetic things that are in play as well as environment in the development of personality. However, it will take decades before the old “blank slate” ideas are done away with in practice.

Look at how long it has taken for psychologists to come to an agreement with how psychopathy should be viewed, and even named. Psychology professionals seem to be even more loath to accept change than physical medicine.

A young doctor told me once that medical education is like trying to get a drink of water from a fire hose, no matter how thirsty you are or how fast you drink, most of it gets by you. I agree with him.

I do think though that we, as EXPERIENCED people from our encounters with the psychopaths do have a great deal to add to the knowledge base about psychopaths. I hope that more professionals will listen.


People are always quick to say . . it’s a combination of Nature (genes) and nurture (environment). The facts are however, that it’s nature (genes) period. The studies done on “identical twins raised apart”, show that they are MORE similar than “non-identical twins or siblings raised together”.
Implying genes have MORE of an effect than environment.


and some people maintain (Judith Harris- The Nurture Assumption) that the effect of family of origin is negligable. –



It’s interesting you bring this up about therapy because I decided today I am not going back to my therapist.

He just is not helping me and I have gone six times now and spent $110 each time so after $660 I feel the same. I talked to him for an hour today and I could have talked about the same things to my best friend for free. And then I handed him $110 in cash. GRRRR. It’s just not worth it to me. If he was helping me, I wouldn’t hesitate to pay the money, but I am feeling angry again tonight. I feel like I am spending MY money because of a spath and at this point, I just don’t feel I am fixable. I’ve been through too much and now after spath, I feel like I am beyond repair. And I don’t say that in an angry or spiteful way…I truly believe it and I think the sooner I accept that I am the way I am, the sooner I may heal and get on with my life.


Many of us have been targeted and abused by P/S/N/A.
We did nothing wrong. It is not our fault. If anything, we were too good, to trusting, to loving. None of that is wrong. We were duped by experts (i.e., P/S/N/A). The thing you can do now, is understand that “it was your good qualities he targeted”. We have to learn there are evil people (lots of them), and how to recognize and protect ourselves from them . . . These posts and the many books suggested here are monumentally helpful.
You will be stronger for it.



I know I didn’t do anything wrong and that thought does comfort me. Yeah, I was too much of all those things. But that makes me the person I am. I won’t let it happen again, that is for sure.

Thanks for your reply to me.


Also Louise . . . be grateful for the good person you are.
Actually . . WE are the winners! We have a conscience. We have the ability to love. They are nothing but empty shells, manipulative automatons, (and often also sadistic and abusive ). THEY are losers . .big time! WE are the lucky ones, and now we have further learned just how lucky we truly are.

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