This week we received the following email:
My daughter is married to a man I consider a psychopath. My daughter has not spoken with me for many months. She has totally changed her personality, voice, she says things she never would have said before, she attacks me to my friends. My daughter and her husband seem to have their own version of reality, truth, and morality that is not consistent with those outside her marriage or in the world. My husband doesn’t want to invite them to our house for the holidays or have anything to do with them. I feel the same way, too, because of their attacks and saying things that are not true about us. I have gotten advice on this blog to try and have a relationship with her no matter what (she needs us if she ever comes out of this relationship or if she comes out of the fog) and to not say anything negative about her husband. (The prior question.)
I really need more advice on what to do. She called my friends and has repeatedly said lies to them, then she called my husband at work and lied to her father. She has totally changed. I kept thinking she would snap out of it and go back to her “old self”. She used to have affection for us. She never would have lied to us or about us. Is this what happens when you live with a psychopath? Can they so change you that you see the world through their eyes or perspective? She used to be so happy and so much fun to be around. I don’t know how we could be around them now. Do you just agree with their reality and say you are sorry for things they said you did, even though you didn’t do them? It seems like a power struggle and the psychopath wins. It seems like the reason they are calling our friends is because they want to stir up drama and win some kind of “battle”. Our life was so even and no drama before our daughter met the psychopath. I am amazed how one person can affect so many lives for destruction, evil and suffering.
This is very hard to know how to respond to my friends, daughter and husband. Could you please give me some advice?
There are three questions here and I will try to answer each one:
(When you comment on this article please reference these question numbers.)
1. She never would have lied to us or about us. Is this what happens when you live with a psychopath? Can they so change you that you see the world through their eyes or perspective?
2. What do we do about a sociopath/psychopath’s smear campaign?
3. Can we still save our daughter?
Question #1 Is this what happens when you live with a psychopath?
The answer is definitely yes. This is what happens when you have any association with a psychopath, no matter how you know them and whether or not you live with them. This is why I strongly encourage family members to cut the sociopath/psychopath off. Sociopaths/psychopaths whole way of relating to the world is about power and control. This need for power and control is very personal. They do it one person at a time, one victim at a time. They do it very systematically with malice and forethought. When they succeed in hurting someone or getting another person to hurt him/herself or others, they step back, revel in it and say, “I did it again, s__t I’m great!” (they use a lot of foul language also.).
Never forget this
Sociopaths/psychopaths get off on controlling people and hurting people. That is why we don’t understand them, and are unable to predict their behavior. To let this sink in emotionally do the following: Next time you eat that piece of chocolate cake, have an orgasm, or watch your favorite team win at sports, focus your attention on the pleasure you feel, and say to yourself, “This is what a psychopath experiences when he controls or hurts another person.” Once you do this a few times you will have no problem understanding them or predicting their behavior.
Since sociopaths/psychopaths lack the brain wiring and chemicals necessary for love, they can only experience pleasure in relationships through power, control and sex. When a normal person says, I love you, he means he has affection for you and “cares” for you. We call it caring for a reason. When we love someone we take care of that person. If we really love someone we also take care of everyone in that person’s family.
When a sociopath/psychopath says, I Love you, he means I own you. When a sociopath/psychopath really “loves” someone they own everyone in that person’s family, including and especially parents, siblings and any children. When you own something you can take pleasure in it however you want. Again this is very up close and personal, There is nothing distant or impersonal about a sociopath/psychopath’s way of relating to others.
How do victims become psychopathic?
It is important to remember that all non-relative victims are to some degree tricked or fooled into the relationship. The need not to acknowledge the profound mistake causes them to lose contact with reality. Their brains are busy constructing the imaginary world they wish to be in. The victim therefore enters what may be called a hypnotic state. Hypnotic states involve shutting out reality and attending to only certain parts of it. In this state, the victim is easily manipulated. What the victim is willing to do may or may not be a reflection of who he/she is. The evil deeds may reflect the victim’s response to selective perceptions. For example, perhaps the daughter in the story above is now so confused about love that she believes the lies.
The process I describe above also applies to families. The less affected family members do not want to admit that their family has psychopaths (because usually there is more than one) in it. They want to have the perfect family as much as anyone else. They therefore normalize and justify ALL of the psychopath’s hurtful controlling behavior.
An ugly side of victim psychology
Since our drives are contagious, a person who is with a loving person becomes more loving. The person who is married to the power obsessed becomes more power obsessed. This can occur outside of conscious awareness. Part of being power obsessed involves delight in both aspects of victory-delight at being a winner and delight at the loss of the loser. People who are not power obsessed usually feel empathy for the loser. The brain power system turns off the brain empathy system.
Get away from that psychopath before his/her behavior rubs off on you more than it already has!
Question #2 The psychopath’s smear campaign
Please check out the other posts on this topic. A colleague recent told me a very similar story so I will address this again in detail soon. My inclination would be to ask the friends to tell their daughter and her husband not to call. If they call after being asked not to they may be prosecuted for harassment. That will put a stop to the drama. Please focus your attention on addressing this specific problem-the phone calls. The drama comes from the context of this problem. (Daughter in the clutches of a psychopath.) Try to make light the silly lies, that way the psychopath can’t win.
Question #3 Can we still save our daughter?
There may come a time when you will feel the need to let go and live the rest of your life as best you can. Only you can pick that time for yourself. Statistics show that the more psychopathic a person is, the more prone to life failure he/she is. In other words most psychopaths screw up, A truly successful psychopath is so rare that I have never verified a case- again it depends on how you define success. I mean this: all of their relationships are eventually broken, they lose their jobs, they have no real friends and they can’t manage money. They also suffer from ill health because they don’t take care of themselves, They also get into accidents and their life span is 15 years less on average. If the man in question here is a psychopath, he would be in the extreme minority if he is NOT cheating sexually or bringing them to the brink of bankruptcy.
The question here is whether this will take so long to run its course that the victim will lose herself completely. When that happens there is great risk of suicide when the relationship falls apart. So if you do decide to back off of the relationship, that would be time to set the record straight perhaps in writing something like: No matter how old you are you are still our little girl and we have loved you since the day you were born. Your choice of a partner has hurt us so much that we must ask that you not call us or have contact with us until this relationship ends. No matter what else happens, we will always welcome you back into our loving arms.
Has a sociopath/psychopath’s influence caused you to do things or be involved in things you regret?
Please comment below.
In regard to: I am amazed how one person can affect so many lives for destruction, evil and suffering. I had the benefit this week of talking with one of my ex-husband’s other victims. In comparing notes, it was clear, the man has harmed everyone who has had the curse of connecting with him. This is the mark of a person with psychopathic personality traits. Since he cannot love he can only do harm. He doesn’t know any other way of being! Just like an apple tree produces apples because that is what it does, the sociopath/psychopath hurts because that is what he/she does.
This is so apt to how I am feeling this week. I started working after taking leave for having a baby with a sociopath, after he left me in the most callous and strange way at 6 months pregnant. It had to be the worst thing that has ever happened to me. It is a sad day when I can say well at least I am not dead. At least I am better off then lacy peterson! Sad day indeed! With all the stress that has come from working and taking care of a baby on my own, I have felt anger welling in me. As if I had been bitten by the sociopathic vampire, I have been wishing pain and misery on the other women. Her demise is not coming fast enough, and I have been wishing the most evil things on her! I am relying on him to destroy her, and I hope he doing a good job. Is this part of my personality? Not normally. But I really do think that the vampire myth comes from meetings with sociopaths!
I listened to a wonderful sermon on the topic of loving the people who do us wrong. But, it is still hard.
BTW, Dr Leedom I love your book not like his father. I was just reading it again today. I find it interesting that the care givers at the babies daycare tell me they never have to hold him/her because him/her doesn’t ever demand it! So, when I get home I hold that lovely baby until I can’t take it anymore. baby is so sweet, but really doesn’t demand to be held. So unlike other babies:)….
My dear lovely wonderful Bird,
I am so glad that you are posting sometimes again, you have been through so very much, and you are so strong.
Your feeling of wishing harm on her is a natural feeling in response to the injury you suffered at the hands of the P.
But you know, I had that same feeling of wanting to “get them back” have them suffer. It (that feeling) was bringing ME DOWN, though, Bird, and I had to force myself to get rid of it.
I started out by praying FOR THEM. Praying for God to bless them. Jesus tells us to “pray for your enemies and those that persecute you.” WHAT? The very people that hurt me?
Well, I said the words, out loud, and I DID NOT MEAN THEM. God knew I did not mean them. But I did what Jesus said for me to do, even though I DID NOT WANT TO. But you know, before long I started to mean the words, and I realized that the prayers for these people was not to benefit THEM, those prayers for the people who hurt me, BENEFITED ME. It helped me to get the bitterness out of my own heart, the bitterness that was EATING MY SOUL.
Yes, in many ways, the pain that they heaped on my head made me somewhat like them, striking out in anger, rage, frustration and malice. But I DO NOT WANT TO FEEL LIKE THAT, TO BE LIKE THAT, so I had to FIGHT to get those feelings of anger vengence wrath out of my heart.
Bird,you are taking care of your Birdie, and doing the best that you can do. Being a single parent IS DIFFICULT at any age. Working and trying to parent as well, and find time for yourself as well.
Bird, try praying for these terrible people, even if you don’t mean it. Ask God to bless them, and the blessings will come to YOU as well, because the bitterness in your heart will decrease.
Also, thank God that your P left you. Can you even imagine how hard your life would be if he was stil there? God blessed you by him leaving. Give my Birdie a big hug from Aunty OXy, and know that I remember you in my prayers daily.
To the woman whose daughter is married to a psychopath:
One of my sons IS A PSYCHOPATH, and the other biological son MARRIED ONE. He met her on theinternet, and she was looking for a meal ticket. She immediately started isolating him from his family. They were married for nearly 8 years.
In august of 07, she and her boyfriend tried to kill my son after he discovered their affair. She also stole money from my mother. Fortunately, God preserved his life and she and her boy friend were arrested.
She, her boyfriend (who was posing as a friend of our family and of her husband) influenced my son and my elderly mother and I literally had to flee for my life from these people, but though my son would never have hurt me, he went along with their assessment that I was “crazy”—
I had to cut off my son, the son I loved, as well as the psychopathic son (who is in prison) and believe me it hurts to cut off a child that you know is being influenced, brainwashed, etc. by someone who is EVIL. But in order to protect my own sanity I had to do it. I don’t even have an idea of how many people in the community they told how “crazy” I was. Eventually when my DIL tried and failed to kill my son her husband, and she and her boy friend were arrestd, I was vindicated publicly.
I can only say that praying for your daughter and just being HONEST with your friends and with your daughter is your best hope for resolution in YOUR life, and only SHE can get out of the FOG she is in. She may do it and she may not, but unfortunately it is out of your hands.
It’s a big step to cut off a child, but sometimes it gets to the point that you have to be honest with the child you love and say “Darling, I love you and always will, but I cannot tolerate the behavior any longer. It hurts me too much, so until you are willing to stop this kind of behavior, we can’t have a relationship.”
The happiest day of my life was when my son who was married to the psychopath put his arms around my neck and said, “Mom, I am so sorry, you were so right, please forgive me.” At that point, I felt like the father of the prodigal son in the Bible, I wanted to kill the fatted calf and celebrate the return of my son, who was lost and is now found.
God bless you in this terrible situation and give you peace.
I am the mother of a daughter that is married to a man I consider a S. Everything I am learning on this blog is very helpful. I appreciate all your comments and information. It helps to have people explain the situation to me because I am still “in shock” or can’t believe this is happening. We had an extremely warm and loving relationship with our daughter and this is very different than anything I would ever imagine living out. I haven’t had any conversations with my daughter since May. I have left messages on her cell phone and she sometimes calls me back for a few minutes of strained conversation. My husband and I don’t know what to do about the holidays. Our daughter and husband live in another state and I don’t know if we should invite them here, or what. I can’t imagine they would want to come, but if we don’t invite them, would that be another thing they could critic us on? I already have realized there is not a correct way for me to act. I have already been told by the S our family doesn’t say “I love you enough”, I didn’t respond happy enough or I was too happy. It just seems like there is no way to make the S happy, so I am constantly trying to figure out what I should do or say. That is one reason I don’t think it would work out to have them in our house for the holidays. It seems like no matter what the S would have lots more ammunition to fire at us. I am sure I would not have the right expression or say the right thing to him.
Bird……..
Was the sermon online?.. if so could you provide a link to it?…
I’d like to pose a question to Donna, M.L., and Dr. Leedom….
Is it normal to go on with your life.. develop new relationships… have new goals and new ideals….. years go by…basicly move on from the sociopathic experience.. but yet.. still feel a emptiness in a part of your heart, or a tugging at your soul…a sort of grieving…maybe partly for them, or about them, but also about yourself…. even though in hindsight, you have gained so much because of this experience and have used it as a springboard to a new life with a new mindset….?
Donna, I know that you have since re-married after your sociopath experience… Does that bad relationship ever come up in your thoughts, effect your emotions or thinking… even though you are happily married?….. At what point does this “go away”… or does it ever?
#1From my perspective, although I don’t think I became psychopathic, I did experience an extreme drop in empathy that I felt while with my P. My feelings became so numb that I didn’t feel much of anything, no matter what happened. Felt sorta like a zombie. But I never tried to hurt anyone or smear anyone else, however, due to my numb feelings, I didn’t really react with much empathy when I witnessed someone else being hurt or smeared either, however, I still knew it was wrong–just my feelings or reactions to it wasn’t what they were prior to P. It took months away from him for my feelings to gradually start to thaw and me to feel high levels of empathy or any other real feelings of depth again. So, in the sense of can being around a P make you feel or react somewhat like a P (even if you don’t hurt someone else), I would say yes, just due to the numbness and lack of emotions you begin to have due to your self defense mechanisms in order to survive.
Onajourney, google traumatic bonding and stockholm syndrome as it sounds like your daughter is bonding with her P due to that.
#2 The smear campaign sounds like he is taking any little fault he can find with you and your husband and presenting you in a bad light to your daughter, so he can form a “It’s us against them” type bond and is probably blaming any of her reactions to HIM on her upbringing, trying to make her think her upbringing is at fault and ya’ll are at fault, meaning she isn’t normal and any negative reactions she has to him is not normal. Plus if he can keep the focus on you and your husband and ya’ll’s faults, it keeps the focus off him and his misdeeds. He probably also senses you see thru him and therefore you are now the enemy he must destroy. Since your daughter keeps contact with your friends, he is gonna want to alienate them too, eleminating your support system also and have them on HIS side for when they talk to your daughter.
Although only you can decide what to do for the holidays, since they are already smearing you with friends and neighbors, I doubt an invitation to the holiday gathering is gonna make things better as far as the smearing goes. Like you said, it may just give them more ammunition. Of course they may use not getting an ivitation as ammunition too, but since you are already being smeared anyhow, why suffer thru the holidays with them. You might just want to follow both your and your husbands gut feelings on this and skip the invitation for holidays.
#3 Can you still save your daughter? IMO, No. Only your daughter can save herself. IF and WHEN that time comes that she figures out what he is, he has turned on her and hurt her to the extent that she has had enough, all you can do is be there for her THEN. You can offer her a safe haven then and help in any way you can to help her get back on her feet.
Others on the board my disagree with me, but in my experience anyway, although I might listen to others and even verbally agree with them and feel they were right, and I would make attempts to leave and get him out of my life, it was just a vicious cycle of whining and complaining and saying I was gonna do this or that, and making some attempts at it, only to cave to the P’s manipulations and end right back with the P at square one.
Wrapping my mind around the fact that a person has no consicence and accepting that as reality was one of the most difficult things I ever had to do. I still have problems with it. I mean, they do after all, do nice things sometimes, which is in conflict with the evil things they do, so you get into “But–but–but he did such and such and it was soooo nice.” I just so wanted to believe that he loved me and he was changing every time he said he was, in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I also didn’t want to leave my former location, a house and business I was about to open etc.
Until I got to the point where I had had enough and was able to accept the situation as it really was, I don’t think parents, friends, a therapist or anybody on earth could have really changed things or my behavior or forced me to leave and make it stick (short of locking me up somewhere). I think if a person is receptive to advice it may help them to talk about the situation and steer them in the direction of leaving, but like I said I feel they can hash it out forever, but until they actually get to the point where they’ve had enough they’ll find excuses not to leave and stay gone.
But once they’ve experienced enough pain and they decide leaving is the only alternative to end the misery, no house, no car, no job, NOTHING will stand in their way of getting away from the psychopath–they’ll cut their losses and leave because no location or material possession is worth the misery of trying to hang onto if it means having to deal with the P. It’s just getting to that point of understanding you have to cut your losses and leave, and rebuild or salvage whatever you can once you’re out, is the problem.
Oh, and on Dr. Leedom’s comment about P’s using lots of foul language, that is sooooo true. That is another fallout from being around a P and picking up their habits, cause I found myself cussing like a sailor just like him. I’ve got it down now to just the occasional H*** or S*** for the most part, but it is a habit I have had to work on breaking.
i just want to comment on that ive notice that when im out with friends i feel like i have some of the sociopaths attiudes. i have notice ive become cocky, ive become mean to other men. and i make like rude comments like trust me i want nothing to do with you. i feel like how the x was has rubbed off on me. is anyone else like this? i hope im not like this forever bc i will never meet a good man being like this.
i talked to one of mine mutual friends that i work with that i have with the ex. the one and only mutual friend we have thank goodness.. but he told me that my x says that he talks to me all the time. its unbelievable they still lie and make up stories even when you dont even date them or talked to them anymore
OnaJourney,
I was in your daughter’s position and my parents in yours. My ex S isolated me and criticized my family. I grew closer to his family because there I wouldn’t hear the truth. They enabled him and still do. I knew how my parents felt about him but I couldn’t handle the truth. I was in that fog; I was very numb. I believe that I was numb because I have a conscience. I knew what he was doing to me, his family, friends, business associates/aquaintences, but my conscience weighed on me so much that to get through his chaos my emotions went numb (this is what I believe). I did in some ways turn into him, such as being antisocial and critical and I enabled him; I was not myself–I lost myself. He sucked the life right out of me. It wasn’t about me anymore, it was ALL about him. But, I wasn’t a sociopath…
I have talked to my sister after all of this and she told me that she told my mom that I would wake up and wise up to this eventually. I did, but only when he found another victim. In a sense, she saved my life. Wow, that was a light bulb moment.
2 1/2 years after I separated/divorced from my ex S I finally had the courage to face my father and apologize for how I hurt him. This is something I knew I had to do. (I am crying while I am writing this) His eyes weld up with tears, he stood up, sobbing, and hugged me and said that is all he needed to hear. We just held each other and cried. I knew that was going to be the hardest thing I had ever had to do. But I knew I had to do it. Now with my mom, she passed away before I could apologize where she could understand. When she was in the hospital I crawled into bed with her and told her that I was so sorry for not being a good daughter. She told me that I was a good daughter and to get that out of my head. She was very sick so we couldn’t have the conversation that I would have hoped.
My ex S and I have two kids so my parents maintained a relationship with me and him so they could see them. My parents kept a distance from him and things were strained. My kids have a much better relationship with my side of the family now. Being mentally and emotionally healthy I have realized how his family enables him and my family may not be perfect, but they are honest and loving people who look out for me and my best interest.
A few months ago I spoke to my aunt and she told me that my mom told her that he could sell me the Brooklyn Bridge. That was the truth. If I were looking at the sky and I said look at that bright blue sky; he would say the sky is pink. I would look again and I would say it was pink.
I am not sure if I answered your questions, but I hope my real life situation may help you in your journey to have your real daughter back…
(((HUGS)))
-Ginger
Hi Southernman,
I saw your question to Donna and our other leaders. :o)
I am in a relationship now and I am struggling. I have noticed that I am easily triggered by certain things. I am always looking for patterns that might emerge. If my boyfriend has a bad day, I wonder.. will this start happening every three days?… will he take his moods out on me?
I am hyper vigilant and perhaps unfair in my constant monitering. ONe thing I have done is that I don’t put him through every thought I have. If something nags at me for a long time, then I bring it up and talk about my triggers. So far, he’s patient but I think it would be too much for him if I treated him to my every doubt and worry. I processed my pain for three years before I attempted a relationship like this. And.. as an aside, this man is someone I dated 20 years ago.. an old friend. So there is some comfort there from knowing him.
Anyway, I do hope the anxiety does go all the way away at some point. But for now, I would put those distressing thoughts at about a 2-3 out of a 10. That’s a major improvement considering that about a year ago, I felt as if everywhere I looked there were predators and I felt very anxious.
I think the main thing is that we had to learn to love ourselves. I have made progress there and so I trust that I will take care of myself. That lowers the anxiety.
Sorry if my post doesn’t make much sense. I am tired.
:o)
Thanks, everyone is helping me understand the situation. I really appreciate it. This is really hard, because I feel like I lost my daughter on so many levels. I don’t have a relationship with her, I can’t talk with her and she doesn’t even seem like she is the same person I knew for so many years. Over all, I miss her alot and have cried almost every day for over three months. This seems to be the hardest thing I have ever dealt with. I think eventually, my daughter will “come out of the fog” and recognize the truth, but it could take 5,10, 15, 20 years. I questioned her about the things she told me about him over the last year, his stealing,lying,sexual abuse case at work, etc. She just seemed to trust him in everything and not have any doubts about him. Some of her friends questioned her about his character and how they had seen her change over the last year. She ignored their letters and pleas and chalked it up to “they don’t really know him”.
She told me on their first date, he was bragging about violence he did. I told her that was not good and googled “violent boyfriends” (this was over a year ago). I wish I would have found this site a year ago or known about S five years ago, so I could have talked about it and warned my children or other friends. I have never studied this before or known this was a serious problem. It seems like a whole subset of information that is valuable to know about and understand.
My son was there when he called her some names- some foul names. I couldn’t believe she would stand for that and not say something to stand up for herself. That was not the way she used to be. The S husband used degrading remarks and belittled my daughter on the phone to me and I stood up for her, that is the beginning of him turning against us (or it could be that we are “on to him”) Shortly after that, we got to see our daughter one time in July at our home. She wouldn’t talk with us, or look us in the eye. She just had this weird smile on her face and kept nodding and smiling at the S. (She looked like a battered woman to me) That night I told my husband, I was going to “get to the bottom of this. My search led me to this site and I am grateful, because I think this is helping alot to understand and learn about similar situations. I really appreciate all the above comments. They mean alot to me. Thanks for sharing…