This week we received the following email:
My daughter is married to a man I consider a psychopath. My daughter has not spoken with me for many months. She has totally changed her personality, voice, she says things she never would have said before, she attacks me to my friends. My daughter and her husband seem to have their own version of reality, truth, and morality that is not consistent with those outside her marriage or in the world. My husband doesn’t want to invite them to our house for the holidays or have anything to do with them. I feel the same way, too, because of their attacks and saying things that are not true about us. I have gotten advice on this blog to try and have a relationship with her no matter what (she needs us if she ever comes out of this relationship or if she comes out of the fog) and to not say anything negative about her husband. (The prior question.)
I really need more advice on what to do. She called my friends and has repeatedly said lies to them, then she called my husband at work and lied to her father. She has totally changed. I kept thinking she would snap out of it and go back to her “old self”. She used to have affection for us. She never would have lied to us or about us. Is this what happens when you live with a psychopath? Can they so change you that you see the world through their eyes or perspective? She used to be so happy and so much fun to be around. I don’t know how we could be around them now. Do you just agree with their reality and say you are sorry for things they said you did, even though you didn’t do them? It seems like a power struggle and the psychopath wins. It seems like the reason they are calling our friends is because they want to stir up drama and win some kind of “battle”. Our life was so even and no drama before our daughter met the psychopath. I am amazed how one person can affect so many lives for destruction, evil and suffering.
This is very hard to know how to respond to my friends, daughter and husband. Could you please give me some advice?
There are three questions here and I will try to answer each one:
(When you comment on this article please reference these question numbers.)
1. She never would have lied to us or about us. Is this what happens when you live with a psychopath? Can they so change you that you see the world through their eyes or perspective?
2. What do we do about a sociopath/psychopath’s smear campaign?
3. Can we still save our daughter?
Question #1 Is this what happens when you live with a psychopath?
The answer is definitely yes. This is what happens when you have any association with a psychopath, no matter how you know them and whether or not you live with them. This is why I strongly encourage family members to cut the sociopath/psychopath off. Sociopaths/psychopaths whole way of relating to the world is about power and control. This need for power and control is very personal. They do it one person at a time, one victim at a time. They do it very systematically with malice and forethought. When they succeed in hurting someone or getting another person to hurt him/herself or others, they step back, revel in it and say, “I did it again, s__t I’m great!” (they use a lot of foul language also.).
Never forget this
Sociopaths/psychopaths get off on controlling people and hurting people. That is why we don’t understand them, and are unable to predict their behavior. To let this sink in emotionally do the following: Next time you eat that piece of chocolate cake, have an orgasm, or watch your favorite team win at sports, focus your attention on the pleasure you feel, and say to yourself, “This is what a psychopath experiences when he controls or hurts another person.” Once you do this a few times you will have no problem understanding them or predicting their behavior.
Since sociopaths/psychopaths lack the brain wiring and chemicals necessary for love, they can only experience pleasure in relationships through power, control and sex. When a normal person says, I love you, he means he has affection for you and “cares” for you. We call it caring for a reason. When we love someone we take care of that person. If we really love someone we also take care of everyone in that person’s family.
When a sociopath/psychopath says, I Love you, he means I own you. When a sociopath/psychopath really “loves” someone they own everyone in that person’s family, including and especially parents, siblings and any children. When you own something you can take pleasure in it however you want. Again this is very up close and personal, There is nothing distant or impersonal about a sociopath/psychopath’s way of relating to others.
How do victims become psychopathic?
It is important to remember that all non-relative victims are to some degree tricked or fooled into the relationship. The need not to acknowledge the profound mistake causes them to lose contact with reality. Their brains are busy constructing the imaginary world they wish to be in. The victim therefore enters what may be called a hypnotic state. Hypnotic states involve shutting out reality and attending to only certain parts of it. In this state, the victim is easily manipulated. What the victim is willing to do may or may not be a reflection of who he/she is. The evil deeds may reflect the victim’s response to selective perceptions. For example, perhaps the daughter in the story above is now so confused about love that she believes the lies.
The process I describe above also applies to families. The less affected family members do not want to admit that their family has psychopaths (because usually there is more than one) in it. They want to have the perfect family as much as anyone else. They therefore normalize and justify ALL of the psychopath’s hurtful controlling behavior.
An ugly side of victim psychology
Since our drives are contagious, a person who is with a loving person becomes more loving. The person who is married to the power obsessed becomes more power obsessed. This can occur outside of conscious awareness. Part of being power obsessed involves delight in both aspects of victory-delight at being a winner and delight at the loss of the loser. People who are not power obsessed usually feel empathy for the loser. The brain power system turns off the brain empathy system.
Get away from that psychopath before his/her behavior rubs off on you more than it already has!
Question #2 The psychopath’s smear campaign
Please check out the other posts on this topic. A colleague recent told me a very similar story so I will address this again in detail soon. My inclination would be to ask the friends to tell their daughter and her husband not to call. If they call after being asked not to they may be prosecuted for harassment. That will put a stop to the drama. Please focus your attention on addressing this specific problem-the phone calls. The drama comes from the context of this problem. (Daughter in the clutches of a psychopath.) Try to make light the silly lies, that way the psychopath can’t win.
Question #3 Can we still save our daughter?
There may come a time when you will feel the need to let go and live the rest of your life as best you can. Only you can pick that time for yourself. Statistics show that the more psychopathic a person is, the more prone to life failure he/she is. In other words most psychopaths screw up, A truly successful psychopath is so rare that I have never verified a case- again it depends on how you define success. I mean this: all of their relationships are eventually broken, they lose their jobs, they have no real friends and they can’t manage money. They also suffer from ill health because they don’t take care of themselves, They also get into accidents and their life span is 15 years less on average. If the man in question here is a psychopath, he would be in the extreme minority if he is NOT cheating sexually or bringing them to the brink of bankruptcy.
The question here is whether this will take so long to run its course that the victim will lose herself completely. When that happens there is great risk of suicide when the relationship falls apart. So if you do decide to back off of the relationship, that would be time to set the record straight perhaps in writing something like: No matter how old you are you are still our little girl and we have loved you since the day you were born. Your choice of a partner has hurt us so much that we must ask that you not call us or have contact with us until this relationship ends. No matter what else happens, we will always welcome you back into our loving arms.
Has a sociopath/psychopath’s influence caused you to do things or be involved in things you regret?
Please comment below.
In regard to: I am amazed how one person can affect so many lives for destruction, evil and suffering. I had the benefit this week of talking with one of my ex-husband’s other victims. In comparing notes, it was clear, the man has harmed everyone who has had the curse of connecting with him. This is the mark of a person with psychopathic personality traits. Since he cannot love he can only do harm. He doesn’t know any other way of being! Just like an apple tree produces apples because that is what it does, the sociopath/psychopath hurts because that is what he/she does.
Well I never acted like my sociopath ex girlfriend, but I am glad to know more about why my sociopath does what she does: to try and control myself and others, to smear my name and other victims using the internet and other forms of harassment,etc. The craziest thing is she harasses my friends and family online as well as people she has never met before. What a sick and awful human being. I can only hope that one day Karma will come back around and give her a dose of her own medicine. Thanks for a great informative article.
http://victimsofangela.wordpress.com
TDPP,
Normally I avoid giving personal advice. However, you need to drop your P law mentor. You can not play games with these people. He will find a way to F you over and laugh while staring into your eyes. I am sure he already knows that you recognize him for a P. You don’t need him – who really has mentors in this world anyway? Get far, far away. Nonviolent, passing P’s are my subject, please take my advice.
Also having had a P parent you are almost certainly vulnerable to P’s in ways that you have no knowledge of. Your mentor will sense it though. Somewhere in your psyche you probably still think you can find a P who will choose you over their own psychopathicness, who will take care of you the way your mother never did. This is a delusion. It will not happen. Drop him.
Concerning your tragic daughter, your fears sound very real. I have seen extreme P children respond to male authority, but you don’t have a father figure in the house. She may very well kill your new baby. P’s respond only to superior power. If I were you I would tell her the IEP meetings are to consider putting her away for the death of your dog and birds. If she says you have not proof, slap her. You have to make her fear you. If you can’t do this, then I’m afraid worse lies ahead. Only the fear of consequences (which doesn’t come easily to P’s) could possibly keep her in line.
Good luck. Thank you for sharing your story, there is nothing like the voice of authenticity.
Sharondenson thanks for your post. It seems like you understand from the “mother point of view”. Everyday, I keep saying to myself, “I can’t believe this could happen!” We had a good, loving relationship with our daughter. I can’t believe it changed so drastically! Right now it doesn’t seem possible to unravel all the lies and get to a place where we would have a relationship again. I want to believe you that it will happen again in God’s time and to pray for that to happen. I appreciate Dr. Liane Leedom’s advice and all these posts. It means alot to me that there are so many kind and helpful people when you are in a situation like this.
Dear Pathwhisperer,
I agree with your advice to TDP about getting away from her mentor that is a P. It is playing with fire in my opinion.
As for slapping the little girl….I used spanking with my kids rarely and only for more “attitudinal” problems (like lying) than anything else. However, with my P-son, spanking or any other kind of punishment made him worse, not better. He became more determined to “get even.”
It seems to be something where he MUST “best”me and never let me get “one up on him”–no matter how long ago the time I “trumped his ace” he has to “get back at me” for it. He is willing to scheme and plan for YEARS to come up with a revenge toward me. There is no telling how many years he plotted and planned this last attack (having me killed by one of his friends) just the execution of the plan took at least two years that I know of, maybe longer.
Quite frankly I would not be able to sleep in the same house with that little girl, I would be afraid she would burn the house down on my head during the night. I have known children (in inpatient settings) who DID JUST THAT because their parents punished them for vandalizm etc. These children are quite dangerous because they have NO bonding to other humans, but they DO have plenty of capacity for horrible revenge.
TDPP,
One of the things I did with my kids when they started into the difficult years and felt “entitled”–the P was just starting, but I didn’t realize yet what he was—was I told them. “Look boys, the state says I have to feed you—Oatmeal is food—they say I must dress you—2 sets of clothes one to wash and o ne to wear from the Salvation army is “clothing”—and I have to house you and give you a place to sleep, a pillow and a blanket to sleep on the floor is “housing” I want you to know if you behave in a manner that is unacceptable, I will do for you ONLY WHAT THE STATE MAKES ME DO, everything else you get or get to do is GRAVY, so keep that in mind when you think you are about to misbehave.
I realize she will rebel but you might try taking EVERYTHING away from her completely and make her earn it back.
Once I toldl my kids to clean their room (it was a sty) and they kept saying okay and not doing it so I told them that if they did not do it I WOULD DO IT.
After the 3rd for 4th day, I DID CLEAN IT. Everything that was on the floor or shoved under the bed with the “pizza bones” etc. I took outside and made a pile at the top of the driveway. They had to get off the school bus at the foot of the steep drive. I soaked it with lighter fluid and just as they got off the bus and saw the pile, I set it afire. They ran up the hill but by the time they got there it was a blaze and they could save nothing. They were saying “What did you do?!!!” I smiled and said “I told you if you didn’t clean your room, that I would do it for you. It is really clean guys, you can thank me later.”
From then on my kids cleaned their room without ever being told to do so again. To this day my “good” son is an excellent house keeper and very neat. He can sew, wash clothes appropriately, wash dishes, cook, and do as good a job as any professional house keeper.
I am NOT “nasty neat” by any means but I keep a reasonably nice house and am generally not ashamed to have some one come over when my house is not spick and span. Sometimes you can write you name in the dust on my furniture (but I do ask that you not write the DATE! LOL) But my kids always kenw that there were consequences to their actions and that I loved them and wanted them to have nice things even if we were poor during a chunk of their growing up days.
I never “threatened” and didn’t carry through with a “promise” and they knew that I was consistent. Didn’t have but the one problem with the theft and running away of the P son at age 11, but til he went Mr. Hyde on me after puberty, then it was an all out war. The ADHD son was a challenge to raise when he was little (always in motion) but emotionally he was a loving child and one I was always close to until he married th P DIL and she alienated him from the family.
So, anyway, my suggestion is to take EVERYTHING away from her and make sure that she knows she CAN EARN IT BACK. But if she destroys something (even if she denies it but you know she did it—) CONSEQUENCES— which no amount of acting out will change. You also might if you have room in your house have a “quiet room” where you put her for an hour—it must have a light in it that she can’t reach to hurt herself with, and an unbreakable window so you can look in on her but absolutely nothing in the room. Bare floor and bare walls. Preferably ones that she cannot damage. That is used quiet successfully in inpatient treatment when nothing else works. It is the equivalent of “solitary confinement” with inmates and at her age I would limit it to one hour max. Talk to her therapist aboutit. You might have to construct such a place inside a room in your house. Make sure you talk to the therapist about the legality of it so you are not accused of abuse by using such methods. As long as she is in your house I think you have to find some way to get control of her.
Good luck. I hope I am not sounding like some DRill sargent from the marines, but I don’t know how else to think with children like these and to protect yourself from their revenge. You are in my prayers. Both you and her.
Wow, all I can say is that my heart goes out to all of you through this time. Just know that “THIS,TOO, SHALL PASS.” So no matter what is going on right now, eventually it will all be the past. I am so thankful for CHANGE…
Dear TDPP,
I think at this point that I would take her and hospitalize her in a juvenile facility ASAP. ANY facility to get her out of your house for right now so that you can have some respite.
She is a “CLEAR DANGER TO HERSELF AND OTHERS” with her behavior and that is the only thing that you need to get her admitted. You ought to be able to have her there for several months at least if you have any insurance at all. That will give you time to get your head on straight and to work on your relationship with your husband. YOU AND HE DESERVE THAT CHANCE and your other child deserves a chance to grow up with both parents.
She is consuming your life, your soul, your marriage, your other child. YOU need to take care of yourself. Without some care for YOURSELF how can you help her? Or your other child or your marriage?
Rather than try taking things away NOW, see if you can get her in an inpatient setting just for some time for YOU, while you work on your marriage, get a night’s sleep and see about getting her into the other facility.
Hang in there–I didn’t watch the UTUBE thing, I don’t even want to “see” it, I lived it, I know it already and just watching it just makes me sick to my stomach–lliterally. There is a thread on here about a man who kept his daughter locked in a basement tunnel for 19 years and sired 6 or 7 kids by her before she was found, and I was so mad and upset for a week I ground my teeth at night. Not that I am trying to bury my head in the sand, I know the level of evil in this world, but lately I’ve seen enough of it up close and personal, I just need to stay in a calm and peaceful place.
That was one reason I retired after my husband was killed in an accident, the stress of his death left me with PTSD, my step dad died six months later of cancer (I was his caregiver) and then the crap started with my P son trying to hve me killed. So it has been a tough 4 1/2 years. It is only the last three weeks that I have been able to move back into my own home. I fled it June 1, last year, moved back to here on the farm in my RV Christmas week last year, but didn’t for some reason feel safe enough to move back into my house.
I’m back in my house now and comfortable, feeling secure in my “sanctuary”—-I read a phrase somewhere (no short term memory=CRS) about “sanctuary trauma” and it really struck a cord with me as the entire farm had almost a “black cloud” of evil and unsafeness over it for so long, now the cloud is gone, and it is peaceful again, and a secure sanctuary.
I stay on my end of the farm, though, and don’t go close to my mother’s house unless absolutely necessary. Unless I go out in the pasture a quarter of a mile I actually can’t see her house. I’m totally no contact with her, I send my son to get any business papers or take any to her. I don’t answer her calls, just listen to a voice mail.
LIfe is good now. Calm, peaceful and I’m content and feel safe. I’m still working on my new attitude becoming a habit, becoming the “real me”—it takes practice when you’ve done it wrong your entire life prior to this.
Peace and contentment to you all.
TDP & OXD,
OXD, thank you — a word of personal experience is worth pages of theory. I was going by fathers of P’s I have known, but there was the whole godlike father figure issue at play also. Yeah, TDP, one more thing, don’t follow bad advice.
It’s just the description of your daughter killing your dog and pet birds (why do you say “mysteriously dead” birds, you know she killed them, yes?) is horrible. From your description it’s seems that a calculus is taking place in your daughter’s head and it’s not leading any where good. She has to see that her actions can have very undesirable consequences for herself.
P’s of course aren’t demons. “There is . . . a core of the emotionally/morally colorblind . . . [that] . . . Robert Hare, author of Without Conscience, terms ’intraspecies predators.’ ”
http://pathwhisperer.wordpress.com/past-notes/
Tdp,
I was referring to my own bad advice. But you already knew corporeal punishment didn’t work, and Oxd backed that up also. I do stand by my advice on your P mentor (POS mentor is more like it) though. It sounds like he thinks he can pull you over to the dark side.
Dr. Hare of course deals mostly with failed or unsuccessful sociopaths who can’t make it in society. So that might slant his view. Would he recognize a sociopath working on his own staff — I don’t know. His 1% estimate for the general population seems to me extremely low. In my own blog I try to flag current news stories and crimes that have that “sociopathic flavor” to spread the word of that possibility. However it’s hard to give it enough time. Thank goodness for the internet, there’s a lot of material available now. So knowledge of s/p’s is spreading.
I hope you filed police or other official reports of the animal killings (even if filed as “mysterious deaths”). I assume you have – you definitely need a record for the future. Your baby is literally an infant, right, too young to live with her father? I don’t know anything about your marriage, but you need both to keep you and your other child safe from your P daughter and you need to make sure that your P daughter doesn’t control your life (which she clearly does now, from your description).
Dear TDPP,
I have thought about you much today and prayed for you and your family.
Yes, I agree that your first priority should be protecting your toddler. My mother’s brother was a P, I call him “UNcle Monster” and from day one he tried to kill her (he was 7 when she was born) Their mother was an ENABLER and kept his abuse of his sister secret until my grandfther found out about it and PUT A STOP TO IT when he was 14 and my mother 7.
My mother, as an abused child, and the example of her mother’s enabling protection of her brother, made her a TOXIC enabler, which she is to this day. I call her a Psychopath-by-proxy as she enables my P son, even after he tried to have me killed and SHE KNOWS THAT. I have gone NC with her as a result. (and I am her only child)
I agree with Path that you cannot continue to let her CONTROL YOUR LIFE, your every waking moment, and ruin your marriage which might have a chance if she were out of the picture in an inpatient facility, which with good insurance you can get her into due to her DANGER TO HERSELF AND OTHERS. It is ultimately your decision, but I can speak for myself, I GAVE UP A GOOD MANY YEARS OF MY LIFE for my P-son, and in retrospect, I should not have done so. I would not do it again. To give up a good man and a marriage for a child (as in this case) that is out of control I would think would be a “high price” to pay, considering that you have another child that needs two parents as well. I know you love your daughter, I loved my son, but you can only do and only take so much. I pray earnestly for your situation and your sanity and peace. I know that whatever road you take it will be a difficult one, but I trust that if God takes me to a cliff and says “Jump” he will either teach me to fly or catch me in his hands. He will not put more on us than we can handle, but he may but ALL we can handle, but never MORE. Peace (((hugs))))