Just Like His Father? Is nearly four years old now and my own son is nearly eight. At the time the book was released, scientists were still engaged in the genetics versus environment debate regarding the development of antisocial behavior. That debate is now over and every authority accepts that antisocial behavior and antisocial personality traits develop due to a gene-environment interaction. I am working on revising the book because now some specific genes have been identified.
Thankfully, I have not had to cope with the toxic environment a sociopath/psychopath creates for their offspring. Just Like His Father? doesn’t really grapple with that issue other than to encourage people to consider that the child may be better off with only one parent. At time the book was written, my thinking was based on two false premises. The first falsehood, I was taught in residency, “antisocial individuals abandon their young” has turned out to be perhaps the biggest problem at-risk children face. Antisocial individuals do not necessarily abandon their young, but they do abuse them and use them as pawns to damage other people and they also use them in their cons.
Four years ago, I naively believed that the family courts would naturally dictate that sociopaths/ psychopaths should be kept from harming their children. This second premise has also turned out to be false and is the basis for the nightmare many people I now count as friends are living.
It follows that in addition to teaching the material in the book and workbook, to save at-risk children we also have to take on the system-hopefully by working together. The system is composed of mental health professionals who really do not understand antisocial personality disorder let alone the meaning of psychopathic personality traits to parenting. It is also composed of Judges who want to make the tough decisions easy by giving themselves judicial sound bites to go by. Here is the official mantra of the state of New York Family Court:
“Visitation by a noncustodial parent is presumed to be in the child’s best interest and should be denied only in exceptional situations, such as where substantial evidence reveals that visitation would be detrimental to the welfare of the child.”
The important words there are “substantial evidence.” Just what constitutes substantial evidence? I am working on researching the answer to that question and have access to an extensive online law library through the university where I teach.
I am preparing a generic document that people can use as a resource regarding the harmful effects of parenting by antisocial individuals and emotional and verbal abuse on children. Some recent research shows that the developmental damage done by emotional and verbal abuse is as severe as that due to physical and sexual abuse.
But we really have to change the legal mantra. Given what we know of genetic risk, we have to not only protect at-risk children from abuse, we have to provide them with an enriching, nurturing environment to prevent the intergenerational spread of disorder. The new mantra should be:
“In cases where one parent has antisocial personality disorder (psychopathy) the child deserves the best upbringing the least disordered parent can provide.”
AND
“The least disordered parent has a right to live life free of the sociopath/psychopath they were conned by.”
Setting the least disordered parent free facilitates his/her mental health and contributes to the well-being of the child.
Here is what you can do to join this effort:
- If you went through a custody/visitation battle and your children are old enough for you to comment on how the battle and the sociopath affected them please write me. I am especially interested in talking with offspring over 18 about their perspectives.
- If you have an ongoing situation you are willing to share please write. Recently, people from Alabama and New York asked me for help so I compiled the case law for those states. The goal is to compile the case law for every state then make the info available on the web.
- If you want to volunteer to read the case law and help me organize it, I’ll put you to work right away.
- If you are an attorney or legal assistant who wants to help please let me know.
- If you have political connections, we need you.
I am looking to form a committee of workers committed to this cause.
Last but not least, I regret the title of my book because it suggests gender. The title merely reflects my own personal experience. This is NOT about gender or fatherhood versus motherhood. Normal men love and nurture their children and I do not dispute that children need that love and nurturing. This is about a psychiatric disorder for which there is no proven treatment, antisocial personality disorder/ psychopathy.
We are working to save the most vulnerable of all children from abuse, neglect and disorder. We are advocating for those children who carry genetic risk for antisocial personality disorder and who have a mother or father who is not capable of loving and nurturing them.
Contact Dr. Liane Leedom at drleedom@lovefraud.com.
Oxy, I believe you’re right that it was BOTH. And yes, they DO know it’s wrong because they lie and lie. You don’t lie unless you know you have to. He knew he had to lie, therefore he knew it would upset me … but he just had to do it anyway. He told me that the things he did were his ‘needs’. Can you believe it? Yes, you can. Everyone here can. 🙂
One_step, that was a nice thing to hear, thanks. If it’s not too slimey and spath-like (he called my daughter his soul mate, yes he did) your posts always resonate (annoying word? The best one) with me. I often wish I could be pals with some of the people on here. Not all of them, mind, hehe.
*hugs both* I’m getting lots of goodness in my broken head and bod from coming here today. Rock on LF. 🙂
I agree with you Teacher, the “thought police” is not a good thing in any way. Or the “he has bad intentions so let’s lock him up.” I doubt that there will ever be A “test” for psychopathy like a blood test that is yea or nay, like for diabetes or pregnant.
I realize that genetics in some instances CAN be over come with medication (like for depression etc.) or even addictive behavior can be overcome with training, determination, support, etc. (like alcoholic or drug addict) however, I think that psychopaths have so little chance of “reform” that rehabilitation is such a remote chance of happening that they should be some how segregated from society AFTER they have committed and been convicted of a crime. In other words, it might be used to determine sentencing after a violent crime, such as rape, murder, armed robbery, etc. or after a SERIES of crimes, such as the “three strikes” crimes.
I saw an article a while back about a guy with a 30 year history of repeated crimes of low or mid-level violence with multiple incarcerations etc. and he stole a 10$ something and shoved the clerk down in a store, and he was sentenced under the 3-strikes provisions, but it was NOT for stealing $10 that he was sentenced to 35 to life, but for a DECADES, LIFE-LONG HISTORY OF PSYCHOPATHIC BEHAVIOR previous to the $10 theft. If that makes any sense.
That is why I think the 3-strikes laws would be good ways in which to segregate the psychopaths from the “possibly” rehabilitateable convicts. Right now the chances of ANY former inmate completing parole without a new crime or serious violation which sends them back to prison is only 40% according to latest statistics. Pretty grim if you ask me.
According to Dr. Kent Kiehl, a researcher doing brain scans on convicts who score 30+ on the PCL-R (which qualifies them as psychopaths) says that the AVERAGE of all the other “non-psychopathic” inmates is 22. The average score of “Joe Normal” is less than 5. That shows that there are a bunch of guys in prison who are “not” psychopaths, but score 25-29 etc.
Hello (but especially in answer to Buttons).
Well – in the UK SW’s do no receive training in personality disorders or adult mental health as part of generic training.
After qualifying – we specialise in an area be it CP or adult mental health or disability issues etc and start to gain our specialist knowledge around ‘what to look for’ and what are known risk factors for abuse of children (in certain combinations and in certain circumstances).
So I had been doing s47 Child Protection enquiries for some time without specifically understanding much about personality disorders.
I am not qualified to diagnose anyone formally in respect of their mental health. For this reason I would never use ‘diagnostic’ labels in my assessments – unless there was a confirmed diagnosis by a person qualified to make that call. Nor is it possible for me to formally make statements about what is and is not possible in terms of treating adult mental health issues of parents such as bi-polar, narcissistic, obsessive-compulsive etc.
Often we clash with our adult mental health colleagues. Their client is essentially the adult – and ours is the child. Although most adult mental health workers have had CP training – this dynamic can be very difficult to straddle. Adult mental health workers are (rightly) concerned to protect the rights of their clients and there is outcry if children are taken away from parents who are ‘ill’ but who with proper support could give a ‘good enough’ standard of care to their children. Many children of parents with a mental illness are damaged ‘to an extent’ by some of the behaviour of their parent or the parent spending large periods of time in hospital- but also gain other skills and are proud of their role as a ‘young carer’. Many people without a mental illness damage their children ‘to some extent’ – (absent dads, mothers with physical illness etc etc etc
I gather information from speaking to and interviewing children. Watching their behaviour and getting reports from others (Iike teachers, school counsellors etc).
I also pull together everything that is known about parents – police records, probation reports, old CS services files, in some cases relevant information from medical records can be requested also (with certain provisos and safeguards).
If going to court (public law cases) – then (very expensive) independent mental health assessments can be commissioned. Managers are reluctant to authorise such reports without very clear mandates from Court and sure that they are needed a they’re a bit strain on departmental budgets.
We have specialist domestic abuse programmes (24 weeks) for convicted offenders- but there’s not enough of them for the demand to be honest.
I get evidence from getting into a family and recording the behaviour and words that I see in front of me as much as I can. In this way – over time I record what I see and hear about the ‘day to day’ life of that child. Also how parents are doing in alcohol or other programmes, are they compliant with their medication (another area fraught with ethical considerations!).
Where abusers have the advantage is in terms of assessing emotional abuse – it’s very hidden. Even where a child is showing clear signs of emotional troubles – it’s very hard to clearly define the ’cause’ of that emotional turmoil.
Is the child hurting over a ‘normal’ divorce – which can still be extremely traumatic if handled as well as possible by parents/carers?
Is the child missing school cos they’re bullied or because daddy or mommy is abusing them?
Or is there more going on? Both adult parties will pften present as equally plausible. Unless there’s a history of ‘police call outs’, or other clear medical/mental health history – it can be very hard to know who to believe. One adults word against the other basically. Especially if a child cannot express about their experiences and feelings for whatever reason.
I’m sensitive to how each parents treats me – as some of the only evidence as to how they treat others, but even this is flawed due to the ‘light in the fridge’ effect. Also some women who’ve got PTSD symptoms come accross initially as being ‘worse’ that the perp. How to tell between a woman with PTSD and bi-polar – or histronic personality traits – they can look kinda similar from the outside behaviours especially in the early stages. (Clue women with PTSD usually act and seem completely different after about 3-6 months out of the relationship from my own (unscientific) observations.
If person(s) concerned don’t want to see a mental health professional I can’t compell them in the early stages of CP enquiries (though Court can order mental health assessments be done later on in the process). Also – even if Court order an assessment be done – real abusers DO NOT CO-OPERATE of course, sometimes very cleverly.
It can takes months of patient work to get a child to the point where myself (or often a child therapist) can gain the trust enough of the child that one feels we have grasped the child’s experience somewhat.
The hardest part is – we go to Court – we get the Order – the child has no contact with their abuser. Back when they’re 18/19/20 – they’re still emotionally damaged. They blame ‘the system’ for taking their parent away from them and have huge fantasies about that parent who ‘loves them, but was prevented from being in their lives’. So NO CONTACT – doesn’t quite work for kids in the way that it does for adults.
Mostly I work around empowering a child to have a ‘kind of contact’ that they can cope with. Be it none at all, some unsupervised, some supervised, some letter contact or whatever. There’s not right or wrong about ‘what kind of contact’ is right – it varies from child to child – and should include what their level of resilience and personality make-up as a completely unique factor in each and every case.
Some kids benefit from limited contact with the abuser in ‘safe conditions’- then they come ‘to their own conclusions’. Some kids needs the adults to say ‘no contact’ – and are after the fact relieved to no longer have the abuser in their life.
Some kids cope better with the abuser than the former partner of the abuser – particularly in cases where there’s been alot of domestic abuse or violence. – but not witnessed by the children directly (rare but is does happen). That’s a pretty tricky conundrum to resolve!
Anyway i could go on and on – but I suppose in a nutshell I think that the question posed in the original article by Dr Leedon needs to be ‘qualified’ a bit. Not possible to generalise about such an issue.
Blessings
Delta 1
Hi Lianne,
Thanks for your comments. I’m NOT saying that sp’s do or don’t feel. I’m saying it’s moot: personality disorders preculde being able to have empathy for anybody.
I’m just saying that the woman sp in my life “acted” the part of having empathy. She bragged that she tested like “a midwest housewife” on the MMPI! whereas I, on the quirky side of ADHD did not test well!
In looking towards the new DSMV, it makes me sad that they’ve simply made more divisions about everything under the sun.
I’m wondering how we can use the categories (and the reasons why) to get the police, etc. to help US, the victims of such people. We are the last ones to be considered, I think. The sp’s keep on perpetuating crimes, then they move on to the next person.
There seems to be a disconnect between the psych community and the crimes perpetrated against us.
I’ve had the same therapist for the past ten years. But it has taken this long to help me to face this issue. Actually, neither one of us knew for sure about my ex, until now.
thanks.
Dear Delta1,
I hear you, a very well written article. Yeppers, definitely understand how your hands are tied so much. It IS frustrating. And almost never “black and white” except in rare instances where a parent is proven to physically/sexually molest the child and is in prison.
Also, by the time the assessments are all in, the kid may age out of the system as well.
It is also quite common for BOTH parents to be co-abusers or co-psychopaths. I call it the “gasoline and fire” relationships. Some times BOTH parents are Cluster Bs and disordered, and the kid hasn’t got a Snow ball’s chance in hell from either parent.
It is estimated that 75% of Domestic abusers are psychopathic as well, so that statistic ought to shed some light on what percentage of children are in a situation that is at least ONE parent a psychopath.
Of course children “love” and are attached to a parent, even an abusive one…and the trauma bond (Stockholm syndrome) is the common connection that keeps them hooked to the abusive parent, making the SW the “bad guy” in the situation for keeping them away from “daddy” (or mommy).
My opinion, though, is along with Dr. Leedom’s that children should not be with a psychopathic parent at all in most instances. Sometimes, too a parent without a “disorder” is so dysfunctional from the stress of the DV that they are not an adequate parent either…and I know that foster care (even good foster care) is traumatic for children, so it isn’t a black and white issue. I wish it was just a black and white issue. Sometimes life just SUCKS! LOL
Thanks for your post, good thoughts and food for thought, Delta 1
Yes good thoughts Delta 1 and Oxy as usual. My problem with the PCL-R is that while yes it is a valuable and maybe reliable TOOL to diagnose psycopathy- it is just a tool. No test is fool proof. Frontporchtalker mentioned the MMPI which I believe I took one time when I was like 18 years old to determine if I could become a checkout person insteasd of a bagger at the grocery store I worked at. The test came back unfavorable, and they let me go. My co-workers were in disbelief as I was that I was fired because of the test. I had stolen nothing, was a good friend and co-worker (2 years), but was let go because of the results of the test. People who lie can easily beat lie detector tests while someone who is nervous may seem like they are untruthful. And as even the many experts here attest to there is no clear definition of the cluster B disorders to begin with. I say maybe if we find one (psycopath) that we all know for sure is one- lets beat the crap out of them. Just kidding.
‘if we find one (psycopath) that we all know for sure is one- lets beat the crap out of them.’
I’M IN!
Thanks for the chuckle. 🙂
Dear Teacher,
ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!!! I have little if any confidence in the MMPI and for it to be used to fire people is a terrible thing in my opinion. Every time I take the MMPI I come up with a different result completely, so what does that mean?
There is also some “circular logic” in the PCL-R, so I am really not sure that it is valid except with habitual criminals. There are plenty of toxic doctors, lawyers and judges that I would rate a psychopath who don’t rate very high on the PCL-R because they are so good at the social cover up that they can mask themselves for the most part.
It’s like using an IQ test to decide if a convict can be executed for a crime or just kept in prison. One point one way or the other can make the difference and the IQ test will vary more than 1 point either way when a person takes it. It is not THAT reliable, but yet it is used to say whether a person lives or dies. And is an IQ test really a valid indicator of intelligence? It mainly shows how someone will do in school, but is that a reliable indicator of anything else? There are different kinds of intelligence that are not even tested on an IQ test.
Since the airplane crash and my PTSD I have extremely frustrating “word finding” problems and it was bothering the heck out of me really badly. I have always “tested well” on the IQ test and vocabulary is a pretty good indicator of how someone will do on an IQ test. So needless to say, my vocabulary has DROPPED dramatically since the PTSD. Finally my therapist gave me an IQ test and I scored even a point higher than I had ever in the past, and he was STUNNED. How could my “I Q” be the same when I stutter and stumble and can’t find a word as simple as “tree” and where larger words are completely out of reach? I don’t know, but it is a fact. So am I “as smart” as I was, even though I can’t use language like I did before? Or am I less smart because I can’t find words?
I don’t guess there is any reliable “test” of anything emotional or mental when you get right down to it.
And, actually I do not have much confidence in the fMRI that is being used to do the brain scans on the convicts’ emotional responses.
There is a great deal of research going on about the brains, both normal and abnormal, or “abby Normal” as Young Dr. Frankenstien would say but as of yet, we are still very much in the DARK AGES I think, though research is progressing at an every increasing rate.
Anytime you get into a situation where you are “discarding” the “defective” genes or people in the population, you end up with a Nazi situation.
The only way I see that it could even be done, and not persecute the innocent or the ones who can be saved, is to incarcerate them based on number and violence of the crimes committed (like the 3 strikes laws) and actually make our “criminal justice” system work. Now, “criminal justice” system is sure an OXYMORON. LOL
Good debate folks, but, and there is always a but, who’s overseeing the tester of such tests?
personality disorders preculde being able to have empathy for anybody.
I am curious to see the evidence of this. There are quite a few personality disorders. Also the DSM is made by the psychiatry profession rather than the psychology profession.
As for the PCL-R I there are problems with it. It may be fine in the hands of a select, small, group for research but it seems when it hits the world at large that there is a large difference in scoring, something like 10 or more points.
I am probably gonna catch some flames for this next piece but I think it is something that needs said. The media and places like here often only talk about the cases that go wrong/badly. We never or rarely hear about all the cases that go right in the court system. If you want to try to fix the system you need to put yourself in the shoes of the people doing the system and toss away any preconceived notions/beliefs and openly look at it.
Divorce court some times comes down to trying to tell who is lying the least! While I applaud the idea of trying to change the system I think that it will be next to impossible. The system has had people working on changing it for ever, just look at the DV advocates for example.
Another piece is that people get hung up on the name that it can be a problem itself. It doesn’t matter to me one bit what label is slapped on someone, what matters is if they are being abusive/harmful to the children involved. By overly focusing on the label of psychopath it can easy have the unintended consequence of allowing those who are not labeled that but still hurt to slip through much easier. Add to that the fact that you can score under the cutoff score on the PCL_R and still be just as destructive/harmful as someone who may max out on it BUT it can be claimed your not “psychopathic” because of the score.
Another piece is that sooooo many people overuse/misuse the term psychopath/sociopath and apply it to people who really are not. Feelings get hurt, bitterness and anger creep in and whamo someone is calling someone else a psychopath. As Oxy pointed there are also times, more than most would think, where both people are abusive and you get the abused abuser complaining yet they are just as bad. Or you get the abuser making the claim and the abused is so distraught and damaged that they appear abusive. How to sort all that out?
For me I think the thing that will have more impact is to try and do what sites like this are doing and that is to educate people about toxic relationships and how to (hopefully) avoid them before you get married and have children.
What a lot of these things comes down to is money. And while it “shouldn’t” be that way it is. It costs money to have evaluations done, judges, lawyers, therapists, foster homes, etc. It all costs money and there is a limited supply of money. Why do a lot of children get sent back into homes where maybe they shouldn’t? There is no where else to go or no money to send them to the few places there are unless the case is really really bad. Not enough foster parents, not enough residential centers for kids, not enough anything.
It is all so complex and can be very frustrating. There is no system that will be perfect or that can’t be beat. There will always be horror stories.