By | July 30, 2010 220 Comments

Life support

By Ox Drover

A thought struck me the other day as I was musing ”¦ many people today have at least thought about how they want things to proceed when they come toward the end of their lives. Do they want to be “kept on life support” with feeding tubes and ventilators and lying unconscious in an intensive care nursing unit?

Is that kind of “life” really anything but prolonging drying? Or, is it possible that if you stayed there with mechanical life support, that you might actually wake up and heal, and go on and enjoy more time in a healthy life? Many of us have made decisions which we have placed into “Living Wills” and have appointed someone to be our decision maker if we can’t make our own decision at the time. (BTW if you don’t have a living will which is legally valid, your nearest relative or your spouse will be automatically appointed.)

When the time came to make the decision about providing life support for my husband with the terrible burns he had, between the medical knowledge I had about his chances of survival (zero) and his wishes, there was no decision to make, nothing could have helped him live longer, only prolong the unavoidable.

In my career as a registered nurse practitioner I have watched families vacillate over whether to put their loved one on mechanical life support, to take them off, or put in a feeding tube or to take one out. I have seen them cry and fight and have seen childhood jealousies come to the front to make decisions which should have been made by a cooler head.

Life support and psychopaths

As I was musing about these physical end of life life-supports, I thought about the fact that sometimes in my relationships I’ve done the same thing. I’ve kept a relationship that was essentially “brain dead and suffering” on life support, loath to let it die a natural and peaceful death by just not sustaining it artificially any more. Hoping against hope that it might improve if I just gave it enough time and energy. Later realizing that I had expended a tremendous amount of energy sustaining this relationship which only became sicker and sicker, sucked away resources I could have used for other more positive things.

Looking back, hindsight is always 20/20, I can see that I kept my relationship with my psychopathic son on life-support from the time he was 17, and when I went to the local jail to get him, as he walked up to me and my husband he said, “What the f&%k took you so long?” At that time, I said to the jailer, “Sir, there’s a problem, this isn’t my son, because my son wouldn’t talk to me like that, take this young man back upstairs.” Right then I had seen the relationship was dead, there was no mutuality about it, there was no respect for me, or for my position as his mother.

But I couldn’t conceive that my relationship with my son couldn’t be somehow miraculously saved by some magical miracle so that “everything would be all right.”

So because I couldn’t stand the thought or the pain of pulling the rest of the life support for the relationship, I put it back on life support and kept it there for decades after that. Even when it took turns for the worse and he wound up not just in juvy  jail, but it big-boy’s prison for a felony robbery,  then back again for murder.

I kept on refusing to let myself disconnect from the corpse of our relationship, refused to let it die a natural death , and feel the grief. In my prolonged denial of how seriously flawed our relationship was, I tortured myself with hope. Hope that was unfounded on reality, malignant hope that my son might survive inside this corpse of a soul.

Had to pull the plug

Eventually there came a time when I realized that the relationship was not repairable. I could not, medicine could not,  nothing could fix the relationship, and in addition the relationship on life support was poisoning everything about itself—including me. It was requiring all the energy I had to keep it as the living dead.  It was a source of contagion that used my energy, infected other relationships around it and me. I had to pull the plug and let it go, in order to survive.

I actually had a memorial service for the boy that was, the little boy I had grown to love so much, oh gosh was he cute, but he’s no longer living, and my relationship with him is only in my memory. Just as my late husband and I are only in my memory. Yet, by letting both of them go, and doing the appropriate and painful grieving, I have released those good memories to be enjoyed and loved the rest of my life.

Nothing should outlast its time. When something is dead or broken and can’t be fixed, it is time for us to let it go. Cherish the memories if we can, but let the rest of it go.

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Dani S

Oxy Can you please write a book? x


OxD……thank you, so very much, for this outstanding article. You’ve shared your grief with me and helped me through some of my darkest days, of late. Yes…life support plays an ugly role in maintaining that connection with the spath.

For those of us who were (or, remain) married (or, bound) to a spath partner, I believe that your description of emotional life support is 100% applicable. We remain because we belive that there will be some epiphany for the spath, and that our “love” and “tolerance” of their atrocious behaviors will win the day and they will magically evolve into the people that we believed that they were.

Life Support……..superb piece, OxD. Thank you from the very bottom of my heart.

Frank Lee Speaking

Very moving. Thank you for that. Must of took some strength to post this here.

I could not imagine having to pull the plug on someone you love so much – it is one of them seminal events that only decent people seem to have to suffer. A sociopath would be off somewhere else wondering what the fuss is all about and texting the nurses to do it.

To illustrate this, a freind of mine was married to a sociopath woman and near the end of their relationship which he was still trying to save, he developed a brain infection of some kind and he was in a terrible way. His only next of kin around was his wife whom the hospital called after he was rushed in. What he told me was just amazing.

He said she was completely disconnected in any humane manner from what he was going through. She showed no support, or even the basic empathy and decency that we would give to a stranger in the same position. He said she just stood there acting puzelled by the entire spectcle. She had no idea how to behave. No understanding of support – the lack of basic humanity is like she had no psychopath manual on how to behave.

As soon as he got well he threw her out of the house and divorced her. But he kept telling me that when she was wooing him she was in total lovebombing mode, could not be more “loving” – yet when he was almost dying and in agony and needed just basic human compassion, she was to use his words “a worthless human being”.

I think situations like these shows the difference between a psychopath and a normal person. A psychopath is completely and utterly useless in such events when you are in serious medical trouble and need their support and help. Even then they are thinking of their own agenda if they act concerned. Or somehow you are bothering them with you suffering.

Not to play down the tragic events you went through, but there is a song by The Smiths from the 1980’s which is a brilliant insight into a psychopath having to deal with his dying girlfriend written in a brilliant and very clever way. I think I even read once that the songwriter Morrissey (who has written loads of songs about everyday psychopaths he grew up with) said it was about someone who knew who tried to act all concerned in the hospital to hide his true nature. But in reality he wanted to date her sister.

Girlfriend in a coma, I know
I know – it’s serious
Girlfriend in a coma, I know
I know – it’s really serious

There were times when I could
Have “murdered” her
(But you know, I would hate
Anything to happen to her)


Do you really think
She’ll pull through ?
Do you really think
She’ll pull through ?
Pull through …

Girlfriend in a coma, I know
I know – it’s serious
My, my, my, my, my, my baby, goodbye

There were times when I could
Have “strangled” her
(But you know, I would hate
Anything to happen to her)

Do you really think
She’ll pull through ?
Do you really think
She’ll pull through ?
Pull Through …
As I whisper my last goodbyes



I’m trying to keep up with Ox Drover’s analogy here….

Socios are also very adept at keeping us “under the anesthesia” of their gaslighting/manipulation, so we cannot see how deadly the relationship actually is.

It’s only when we “pull out the IV of the anesthesia (of illusion)” and take back our power, that we can see what is really going on.

Then, hopefully we regain our strength and can pull the plug on the entire parasitic relationship.

Because as long as you are under the “anesthesia” in any relationship, you are powerless.


Ox This is your best article..When we love someone we rationalize the abuse and hope things will get better. When it is our parent or child we put up with so much because after all they are family, and we all have those good memories to keep us bonded.. It was lack of respect for me that pulled the plug…If we continue letting them treat us with lack of respect then we are not respecting ourselves, and that affect’s every good relationship we have…good article – good analogy..

Ox Drover

Thanks, Guys, glad you enjoyed the article… know me, I think in analogies. But I can sure see the “desperate hope” that we have with our RELATIONSHIPS that are DEAD, and that we keep on “life support” to the many times I’ve seen families put “grandma” or “daddy” on life support when there is NO WAY in hell that they are ever going to live one minute off that ventilator, just because the family or even one person in the family, can’t “bear to see mama die” and if the corpse is still warm and lying in a bed she is not “dead” as far as them having to admit it to themselves.

I see how our relationships with the psychopaths are as DEAD as dead can be, but how I (and others I know) have kept on deluding ourselves that this relationship is still “alive” and capable of “healing” from the horrible maladies it suffers from.

Even more than 20 years ago when my son asked me “what the Frack took you so long” to come get him at the jail, I KNEW then the relationship was dead, and did the right thing, I walked out of the jail and left him there….but then I did CPR on the corpse and revived that relationship again and took him back into my home. From that day forward I kept on doing CPR on the relationship, putting more and more of my resources and energy into keeping it “breathing” HOPING against

Frank Lee Speaking

The amensia the psychopath puts one under reminds me always of Plato’s !Allegory of the Cave”. Were the prisioners mistake the shadows on the wall for the real world while the psychopath is the puppet master.

Ox Drover

I am not sure why the above post went live before I was done, but here’s the ps.

For decades I kept hoping against hope that the relationship would heal, grow, mature, survive, become well…and you all know the results of that MALIGNANT HOPE, that denial of the truth…the “living corpse” of the relationship rotted and stunk to high heaven, and others could see it was decaying, they could smell the stink, but I just kept on believing it was just a temporary set back.

I know how strongly I have always felt about people keeping a living body on futile life support just in order to keep from having to admit that their loved one is dead and gone, hanging on to that thin hope, that malignant hope that doesn’t do anything but prolong the dying, not the living, and in the end, keep them from having a chance to have a healthy and normal period of grieving.

I did that with the relationship with my son, but I didn’t see how it was EXACTLY like me keeping his physical corpse on life support, which I would not have done. Back then I just could NOT see that they were exactly the same, and both just as futile.

Dani S

And Ox I might be bold in saying, but you give a lot of us life & thank you for expressing and giving us your energy when you cant to the people closest too you! I hope that made sense to you x

Ox Drover

Dear Dani S,

That was very sweet of you to say! I’m glad to give you or anyone else support,, because there were people who gave me support when I needed it the worst, who were there for me to help me pull the plug on the most precious thing in my life, my realtionship with my kids….but pulling the plug on ANY relationship that is important to us is just as painful…but it is the only way we can free ourselves from the denial keeping the relationships on “life support” when there really is no hope for recovery.


This story about life support really resonated with me. I can’t imagine the courage it took to let her husband go. After finding out that Oxdrover’s son was not making the right choices, how hard it had to have been to let him go too. You can’t save someone who has no desire to be saved and will not show remorse for all the pain they have caused.

It’s this malignant hope that we keep alive, if only this person that we have loved so deeply could see the pain they cause, if only they know that I will help them through and care for them. The fact is that they don’t care about us and keeping them hooked up to an IV isn’t going to cause any miracles to happen. That has probably been the hardest lesson for me, no amount of love, care, understanding, forgiveness or empathy will get them to come back from the dead.

Whatever part of their brain that is shut off (cerebral cortex?) from putting the brakes on their bad behavior, it’s a goner. Nothing will bring it back.

Daughter has said that I am all emotion and dad is all logic, she is a little of both. Too bad he can only fake emotion and can’t feel the wonderful spectrum of emotions that make us human, I can only feel sorry for him and get him out of my life for good.

Dani S

Oxy you have many times smacked me in the head with your analogies, wit & wisdom… I know you are passionate in your wisdom and personal experiences and you are so very valued & appreciated by many. You are almost the first to welcome all everytime, and make sense of the madness! Thank you x

Ox Drover

HopeforJoy, I hope you can pull that plug and break free. Actually, stopping the life support for my husband was not difficult at all, he had third degree burns over 95% of his body and there was NO chance he could have lived, he knew it and I knew it, there was no “decision” to make. If he had had 20% burns, then I would have had a decision to make, there might have been a “chance” he might have lived (but at 72 not likely) so I would have had to DECIDE.

The relationship with the P-son really was just as surely “dead” but still breathing as my husband was physically. There should not have been any “malignant false hope” for the relationship with my son, yet, I allowed myself to see “hope” because it was too painful to face facts with my relationship with my son. I wanted to DELAY facing facts, and if I kept up that “hope” it delayed me having to FEEL the grief of the death of the relationship with my son.

When we keep up that “little bit of hope” (when in reality we KNOW the truth but fail to face it) we are we THINK, protecting ourselves from having to FEEL those painful feelings, but in actual fact, we are4 making them worse and prolonging them. It is like trying to be “kind” to a puppy by cutting his tail off one inch at a time instead of snipping it off once and being done with it.

One hurt and over. Instead we prolong it with hurting over and over and over and anxiety and pain.

The coward dies a 1000 deaths, the brave man but one.

Can’t remember who said that, but it is so true with the realtionships with the psychopaths too. we need to be brave and break it off, instead of prolonging the agony.


Thanks, Oxy for your great article. I’ve been trying to put the pieces of your story together from the comments on the other articles, and this one helps a lot. I am so sorry about what happened to your husband.

Thank you also for your time and effort to help those of us who are new (and not so new) to this and struggling to cope with the confusion and pain. Your rational approach to some of the emotional garbage has helped me tremendously.

I can relate to your feelings about your son when picking him up from prison. My brother was addicted to cocaine years ago, and he actually OD’d on it. Long story short, he swallowed a bag in the back of the police car and it ruptured. He nearly died, and they moved him to a recovery center after he got out of the hospital.

My mom and I went to see him the next day, and he was not happy to see us. He acted like he didn’t want to see us, and couldn’t wait to get rid of us. I walked out and told my mom that he was not my brother. That really hurt. He is clean and doing great now.

The relationship of a mother to her children is the strongest bond there is. I am sorry that you have had to go through that separation as well. I know that you are loved by many people, and may God Bless You and Keep You.


Thanks for the article Ox!

I’ve been “chewing” on it all day today. I began to look at my life with hspath and just my life in general. I realized that I fill my life up with the malignant hope for a lot of things in my life. I then realized that the malignant hope is really a shroud for the profound fear that I have in my life. I tend to hold on to things beyond their use. For instance, I have a 16 year old car, for one reason or another won’t keep the battery charged. So at the time this happened, I purchased a portable battery jumper. Every time I want to start the car, I have to jump start it. How pathetically sad, when I think about it!!! I did the same thing with a cell phone, it was hanging by threads and in two pieces and I still hung on to it. What’s really troubling is that IT WASN’T THAT I COULD AFFORD TO DO BETTER. I COULD! I was fearful of what the newness would bring. Because at least with the old stuff, I knew how it worked. Same with relationship with hspath. Although I didn’t stay long after his true colors emerged, the fact remains that I still stayed. I ignored the clear signs that there was no relationship to revive or hold on to. I feared being wrong in making a choice even though it was clear that it was in my best interests.

I’m learning to trust myself more and ridding myself of the fear. Finally got a new cell phone. Am looking for a new car. Working each day to build a new me.


healingfast – maybe you need a new battery for your car?

Ox Drover

Dear Healingfast,

Yes, fear of change—-also fear of spending money on yourself maybe too? I am the world’s worst about feeling bad or guilty about spending my money that I earned on ME. I recenlty spent $4200 bucks on some hearing aids for me. I am profoundly deaf and have been for years (I’m great at lip reading) but felt guilty about spending the money (and truly I don’t have an unlimited amount by any means) but then I thought, if it had been my son D that needed the hearing aids, I would have gladly popped for them, and not questioned the purchase for a moment, but for MYSELF? I had to think about it really hard and finally decided I would do something for ME and am still fighting the guilty feeling or the “did I do right to spend that much?” or “what happens if I really desperately need that money later?” feelings.

I inherited my grandparents’ financial insecurity from them having lived hand to mouth during the depression (which here in the South lasted untiil the mid-1960s.) so there is a voice in the back of my head that says “save save, for tomorrow we may starve”

I had a dog one time that had that mind set. Picked her up, starving on the side of the road, pitiful starvation, and she would eat and eat and eat no matter how much she was full because she just “knew” that tomorrow the food would run out.

I guess I have that same attitude about spending on MYSELF, but not about spending on others. Remember, we must TAKE CARE OF EVERYONE ELSE and we can do without, or make do, or whatever, but it’s okay to spend on others, even for their recreation, when we need medicine…but it isn’t okay to spend money on ourselves.

This having been a LIFE LONG feeling of mine, I can actually remember feeling bad/guilty when my parents had to take me to the doctor because I got sick as a young child (no medical insurance in those days) it has been difficult to combat, much less get “over” these feelings by using rational thought and logic, because it is a FEELING not logic.

I TELL myself it is OK to take care of me, to spend money on me, but I still have to make myself do it. I don’t mind being THRIFTY, because that is OK but being thrifty means that you have ALL of what you need and some of what you want at the least possible amount of expense. I actually enjoy price shopping for things and getting bargains. It is actually kind of a fun game for me. I live in a nice home that only cost about 1/4 of what it would have cost to buy such a place, (lots of sweat equity) have everything I need for health and entertainment, and on a poverty level cash income I live like I make $100K a year. (don’t owe anything and have zero debt) But it does mean I have to watch my cash flow outgo, prioritize and bargain hunt for the things I want. Some things though aren’t cheap, and hearing aids are one of those things….medical care too. I’m not going to shop for the LOWEST BIDDER on my appendectomy or a do-it-yourself-kit! LOL (razor blade and a band aid) LOL

All I can attribute all this to is that I was programmed to take care of others at the expense of my own needs—and I did it for most of my life. That’s not a good way to be, and no one MADE me that way, because I must accept responsibility for ACCEPTING that training with out any resistence. Even after I got old enough to question its rightness, I didn’t.

Now I see it, now I KNOW IT, but it is difficult to CHANGE the feelings….I can change the behaviors and take care of ME, but the feelings about it I just have to accept that part of me wants to feel guilty, and then tell THAT PART to shut up! LOL

BTW: Have you thought about checking the battery? If that’s okay, check the ALTERNATOR, it might not be putting out enough voltage. Or your cables between the two might need changing. I drive older model vehicles (another economy) but we keep them tuned up and running well. I couldn’t do that if son D wasn’t a pretty good mechanic, but as long as he is here to help me, we can get by with the older vehicles and save money on them, but without someone to work on them (and always keeping a spare) wouldn’t be possible or save me much if any money, so I’d have to get a newer vehicle.


Ok, Hens and Ox, I will try the battery and then the alternator and cables.

I, like you, Ox love to bargain shop. I like the idea of biggest bang for the buck too! I love going to pre-owned stores and finding gems. I’m slowly learning to let go of accepting the worst out of fear and procrastination.

You are so right, if it would have been someone else, I would have sprang into action immediately. I’m going to try to love myself that way, then I will truly be able to really give love.

Thanks for your continued wisdom!! I absolutely love it!!


But of course a bad battery is always a good excuse to buy a new car ~!

Ox Drover

Dear Hens & healing,

Henry! Maybe for you, sweet cheeks, but I don’t get a new “used car” till the parts needed to fix it cost more than the blue book value! I drive them til the wheels fall off. I actually save a lot of money that way, as I only carry liability insurance on them, so if I crash them, I don’t get any money, but if it is my fault, then I am covered for the damage to someone else.

With older cars, the price of the insurance stays the same or higher to fix your own, but the amount they pay you goes down every year anyway as the value of the car decreases. So by driving POS’s I save close to $1000 a year on insurance per vehicle. (I have 3) and my self-insurance doesn’t cost much as the value the insurance would pay with a reasonable deductible would only be about $1500-2000 any way. So if I go 2 years in each vehicle without a total crash I’m money ahead, even if I were to total it and, knock wood, haven’t had even a fender bender in 6 years, and that was hitting a fence post with the side of my truck chasing cows in the pasture. LOL Kind of embarasing that one–so usually lie about what happened if someone says “what happened to the side of your farm truck?” LOL But then Son D, God bless his soul, says “Nah, that’s not what happened, she’s lying, let me tell you what really happened.” Or should that be God REST his soul!? LOL


Ox I have NEVER EVER owned a brand new vehicle, but I think your ideal of USED and my ideal of used are different by about ten or fifteen years…

Ox Drover

Not too sure about that, all mine are 1999 or later except for the 1966 diesel Mercedes sedan, I’m the second owner and has only 66K original miles on it but we don’t drive that currently. None of mine have much over 100K miles except the BIG diesel truck and it is like 130K which is just broke in for a diesel engine, and it is only used to pull trailers or heavy stuff….I have one small truck and one small car and the truck we pull trailers with, are all fairly low mileage and not much more than 10 yrs old. Not valuable though, I think except for the big truck, the blue book is like $1,500-2,000 for these vehicles. Not worth selling or trading in really, “best use” of investment is to drive them till the wheels fall off. Patch’em together with “balin’war” and “duck-tape” and tie the spare on with hay twine! LOL

You can see I ain’t “car proud” but I do want one that cranks when I turn the key, tires got some tread, and all the paint’s the same color–minus a ding or two here or there. Reliability is the main thing with any vehicle, 4 tired or 4 footed!

Ox Drover

ps Henry, I owned 2 new vehicles in my life, one a ford Escort back in the 80s and the other a Ford Ranger truck, highest price for either was $12,000.


Great article. I find myself in denial that there are real people in there somewhere in P’S much like looking for the human being taken over by aliens and those pods. Oh yeah invasion of the body snatchers. But the more you look around they are multiplying. Guns worked on those watermelon heads I believe. It is hard to defeat someone you are supposed to care for. A dillema of course.


Great Article, Ox. I like it very well thought of.

I just don’t know what to do. Everytime I bring a friend over or my little sister has to come along. Its almost like she’s constantly looking for attention from them. The minute they come towards me or chill with me, she gets mad. I’m so tired of it. She thinks she can boss people around and that she’s the queen bee. She goes around saying she’s the queen bee she will make your life a living hell. So she thinks whatever she says goes. My dad is afraid of her on the other hand. I get so sicj and tired of dealing with her. Can she have some sociopathic traits? I mean right now she’s with one of my friends from school and she won’t let her sleepover in my room. She kept trying to get her attention the whole night.

Ox Drover

Dear Hurtnomore,

Darling, little sisters are line that sometimes. Sure she could be showing some signs of S traits, but much more likely she is just a pest wanting some attention from her big sister’s friends. You will just have to wait and see how she turns out as an adult.

As for her being a PEST—-hey, chickie, TIME is getting shorter by the day! It won’t be long until you will be away from her and not have to worry about her.

You will be moving off into the world of adulthood and she will be staying there with your father. After you leave you don’t have to worry about her messing with your friends, you can avoid her entirely if you want to.

That is the nice thing about being an adult and providing for ourselves we don’t have to put up with anyone who gives us grief, we are able to say “I don’t want to be around you” and then act on that. A child who is living under some one else’s roof doesn’t have that choice. But when you are independent you can make your own choices who you associate with and under what conditions.

Hang on, it is a matter of a few weeks now before you leave.


Dear OxDrover,
My parents keep pushing us to be close friends but we can’t. She has been horrible to me for years. She insists on talking behind my back with my friends constantly. She’s not little, she’s 16. I just get so tired of dealing with her,

Ox Drover

Dear Teacher,

Denial is difficult to overcome sometimes….it was for me at least. We seem to think it will keep us from feeling the pain of the reality, but it really doesn’t, doesn’t even delay the pain much….wish it did. It basically just keeps us from DOING anything to fix the problem. So we have to give it up before we can concentrate on fixing what can be fixed, which is mostly ourselves. We can’t fix the Ps…all the CPR and advanced life support in the world won’t revive the dead, just slow down the putrification of the corpse.

Ox Drover

Dear Hurtnomore,

Your parents might wish that you would be close friends and if you aren’t then you aren’t. When you are little or living under some one else’s roof, they can have some influence over how you act, but NO one can make you love someone you don’t care for. They can insist as long as you stay under their roof that you behave toward her in a certain way, but once you are out from under their roof and are an adult, YOU have the choice who you associate with.

Along with autonomy (being your own boss) comes the RESPONSIBILITY for making your own living, paying your own way, and making your own decisions. When someone else supports you they can make rules that you must abide even though you may not think they are fair or good, but as long as they are paying your way, you must abide by their rules.

You will be 18 soon, and you are not required by law to abide by anyone else’s rules—as long as they are not providing for you. If you come to stay in my house, and I provide your food, clothing, etc. then I will make the rules you must abide while you live in MY house. If you don’t like them, or don’t want to do them, then you are welcome to leave living under my roof.

That’s the situation you are in with your parents, as a dependent young person (I won’t say “child”) but as long as they pay the bills for your living space, for the majority of your living expenses etc. this gives them some “rights” on how you BEHAVE. Even if you think it is NOT fair, and it may not BE fair. But the choices are put up with their rules, or provide your own place to live and own living expenses.

Sure it makes you unhappy to have a younger sister being a pest, and at 16 she SHOULD not behave that way, but you know what, YOU HAVE NO CONTROL over her. I have no control over ANYone…except that I can tell them to get out of my life, because I pay my own way as an adult. I am not forced by circumstances of living to put up with someone who is a pest in the place I live. Unfortunately, until you leave home you are forced to put up with how she behaves.

None of us have control over others, we can only control ourselves and how we react to others. I would just not bring friends home knowing she will act like this, or warn your friends she is a pest. It isn’t long until you leave for college, and once you are away from living at home, you won’t have her breathing down your neck all the time. You will have more freedom along with more responsibility. It isn’t long until you will be leaving. Keep reminding yourself of that. (((Hugs))))


This is kinda off topic, but have any of you wondered what it would be like, if we had the science to predict whether or not someone would be born with a disorder – like anti-social personality disorder.

How would you handle that? After all of the pain that you’ve gone through. I mean, maybe one day it will be as easy to screen for ASPD as it is for Down’s Syndrome. I know this is a heated topic anyways, but it was on my mind, so please forgive me for raising eyebrows.

I’ve had to square off with this “disease”, because it’s profoundly affected my life. I’m tougher now. In a deep way. And, there’s no way I’ll fully ever forget the impact it’s had on me. There’s no running away from it. It’s torn away every false belief I’ve ever had about the way the world and humanity.

I hope that my son does not have ASPD, but I have no control over the “genetic” hardwiring. All I can do is be the best mother I can be. If he does have it, I know that I’ll have to make my peace, like Ox, and give it to God. Surrender the relationship, if it becomes a toxic, black void.

Recently, my daughter was asking be about good vs. bad, and who goes to heaven. Basically, we got around to the conversation that, while I would hope she’d choose the faith I have, I can’t make her choose it – nor can I make her choose to do anything based in empathy and concern. She has to make those choices herself. I told her I will always love her, but I wouldn’t want to be around her if she broke laws and became a “bad” person.

Her response kinda stunned me, because she quickly recognized the simple logic of my answers to her, and happily went along her way (this is a child that is never satisfied with simple answers). But, I think she could recognize some important truth.

I can’t make the people I love, walk the path I want to walk, respect the boundaries I respect, regard the truths that I regard, but I will always have control over myself.

I’ve lost a lot illusions about “love”, seeing the breakdown of many relationships, now. For me, I’ve lost a few personal relationships that needed to be cut off, because they were with toxic people. My mother (with whom I have very limited and structured contact) and my ex-socio (who is completely cut off), namely. And, it seems traumatic and unfortunate, in some ways I feel worn down and jaded, but I learned one really important rule from the socio – and that’s love can’t and won’t thrive in a toxic relationship, ever. Also, that “love” never really existed in those relationships, to begin with, except for the feelings and things I was infusing into them.

I’ve also learned that you can’t keep yourself tied to a toxic relationship, unless you want to go down with that ship, so to speak.

I don’t mean to go all “Bible” on everyone, but this subject makes me think a lot about how God calls us to love him above all else and everyone else. I think there’s an important reason for that. One, being that our human relationships are flawed because human nature is fundamentally flawed, but God is not. He doesn’t abandon or change.

Anyways. That’s what this post got me thinking about. Good post Oxy! “Just Like His Father” is at the post office waiting for pickup 🙂

Ox Drover

Dear Purewater,

I can’t answer your problem about if a child could be determined to be a genetic psychopath (say like a Downs syndrome baby) before birth. Would I abort such a fetus? Smother it at birth? I’m not sure what good it would do if such a test was there unless there was a medication or treatment that could help it. I have known people who aborted a child that would have been a downs syndrome child, and others that were deformed in one way or another, and that is one of those things I can see from both sides and I can’t say yea nor nay because I’ve known some Downs children who were absolutely wonderful and enjoyed life.

I guess it is kind of like the “death penalty” I used to be very much for the death penalty, but actually if our justice system was less flawed I might be again, but the thought that even 1 out of 10,000 people executed MIGHT be innocent—I can’t be for the death penalty any more.

As far as the psychopaths, the violent and criminal ones should be locked upfor life in special “Path” prisons, and keep them away from the young NOT-P criminals. That ought to save a lot of money—

If mankind followed the commands and suggestions in the Bible about how to treat others earth would become a paradise! Unfortunately, there are more people I think who don’t follow even the 10 commandments than do.

But nothing has changed, there have always been psychopaths, and the Bible describes them in many places. It shows many many examples of hypocrits and evil people, and even peoople who do evil by doing nothing…like the priest that walked by the hurt man on the road, where the “Good Samaritain” stopped and gave the man aid and compassion, while the others who pretended to be “godly” and “holy” (outwardly) didn’t have the inner compassion to help a wounded man.


purewaters – thank you for your clear post. i haven’t thought long and hard about the question you pose. we are so hard wired to protect babies once they are born – but maybe your question is about in utero?

to begin the thought process – there is a vast difference between intellectual and physical disability and disorderedness. We KNOW the disordered will harm others. if we could predict the extent of the disorder via genetics….it would have to be ironclad for me…then? well, i am not sure. but i think yes. in Buddhism, the concept of compassion encompasses the killing of the one to protect many. so, i think yes. but process and checks and counter checks are necessary for process.

we need to start cataloging the DNA of spaths in jail. create a DB. i know this idea, and my view won’t be popular. that’s okay. what i went through with the spath wasn’t popular with me either; and nor is it with the families of the women who were murdered by robert picton or paul bernardo, or jeffry daumer…..


Oxy, in regards to the Good Samaritan, did anyone see What Would You Do? on ABC last night. I love that show. The last clip was of 2 different people falling down on the street to see if anyone would stop and help them. A number of people stopped to check on or try to help the well dressed attractive lady, but not a one stopped for the “homeless” man with a can of beer in his hand. Finally, a homeless woman stopped and when not getting a response from him, leaned up against the building and asked passersby to call 911. No one would. She even went so far as to remove the can from his hand, throw it away, and still no one helped. You could see the helplessness and hopelessness she felt on her face. Finally, one lady did stop and make a call. It was truly one of the saddest things I have ever watched in respect to human behavior.


Oxy, good post about the righteous and unrighteous in this world.


Throughout Scripture, one very loud and main theme of the Word of God is this:

Those who are righteous (right with God) will receive mercy, blessings and rewards from God (e.g. Psalm 37:18-20).

Those who are wicked, God will judge. As Psalm 11:5-6 says,

The Lord tests the righteous (that’s us on LF), but the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates. Upon the wicked He will rain coals; fire and brimstone and a burning wind shall be the portion of their cup.

I just thought I’d throw that in.



Your post was good, thought provoking. Yes, toxic relationships don’t work – you’ll go down with the ship if you stay on board.


OMG, has anyone seen the newest GEICO insurance commercial?

A mom is driving her children (all seated in the back of the sports van) and a little pig sits in the front passenger side as he WE, WE, WE’s all the way home.

Too funny.



I’m sick of being tested (if that’s the case) by the man upstairs, not having the stamina to take anymore pain. As far as being righteous, I hardly see myself that way – not being close to God, instead, keeping Him at a distance due to all the DRAMA that He’s allowed me to endure, questioning everything.

Ox Drover

Dear Shanna,

Yes, I saw an episode or two of it, the one where the guy was sitting eating with a girl and he began to verbally abuse her (she had visible bruises) some people helped her some not.

The one where the “mother” left her small children on the sidewalk and drove off was pretty good.

I loved the one where they got people to lie and endorse a product that they hadn’t used (and say they did) and even when they thought it caused cancer they still did it. One man when confronted said “well that’s the buyer’s problem” (wonder if he was a psychopath?) LOL

Yea, Good show! But you know it does show though that not everyone will “get involved” or even call 911…I did like the episode of it where the kid was left alone in the park and the perp approached her and some of the parents there with their kids ran him off and protected the little gir. I think though that they said that less than half did, only like 12 protected her I think. Maybe it will make some people MORE AWARE of what they should do in some of those situations.

Enough of that kind of situation has gone on that I really don’t have a lot of confidence in people stepping into a situation to “help” enough to depend on them unless absolutely necessary.

The episode (I didn’t see it) of the homeless man on the street needing help doesn’t surprise me in the least that no one would even call 911 for him. It breaks my heart, but doesn’t surprise me.

I do think though that sometimes, especially in areas where there are homeless people frequently seen, they tend to become invisible to those passing by—or are seen as a danger, which most of the time they aren’t.

When I would go to Dallas to visit my friend and we would go to the Dallas library we would usually get there early so we could spend the day doing the research we came there to do and many homeless would be lined up outside the doors where they would spend the day as well. For a while the library had run them off (many of them have hygiene problems) but someone had sued and made the library let them in as it would any other well behaved citizen…however, they won’t let them obviously sleep there with their heads on the tables even now.

Wini, was the little piggie in a safety seat? Was he big enough to sit in the front seat? If not, call the ASPCA LOL hee hee hee all the way home!


BlueJay, sorry, but you, like the rest of us on this site are LOVED and cherished by our Creator. I’ll tell you more latter. I’m about to walk out the door to help friends of mine.

Just know this. He loves you, wants the best for you … and any evil that the DEVIL (yes, it’s the devil playing us with all this evil) does to us … we just endure to the end. Why? Because we will have eternal life everlasting and the evil ones go into the eternal flames for ever more. For ever more? Yes, for ever more.

I’ll tell you the spiritual aspects of all of this at a latter writing … just remind me the next time you know we are on line together.

Just know you survived evil without surrendering to that evil and becoming evil yourself. For that is what the Devil wants us to do. Throw up our hands up in the air. Give up. Loose faith in God. Join his ranks in doing evil. So we can do what? So that we can burn along with him.

That is why we pray for those that do us wrong. Why? Because we don’t want any of God’s children because they didn’t have courage enough to fight the devil on their own or were to arrogant in this life to think there is an afterlife (believe Satans lies that this is just a fairy tale or the upper echelon fables to control the masses, etc. etc.) … to fry in the eternal fires … with Lucifer! Some of our Spaths are evil to the core. Always were and always will be. However, some evil folks are blinded by sins … and are clueless to what they do. Either way … God knows what to do with any of the above.

That’s why Jesus said to His father in Heaven (GOD) … forgive them Lord, for they know not what they do.


Shana31, I actually experienced a real-life episode of “What Would You Do?” and the results were shocking, to me.

We were on our way back from the camping in the Catskills, and stopped at one of the Turnpike Service Centers – you know, gas, mooga-fast-food, tourist stuff, and bathroom facilities.

As we were nearing the doors, there was an elderly woman laying out at the entrance, and people were actually side-stepping her without a pause. I stooped down and asked her if she needed help. She replied that she had taken a fall and was in considerable pain. My husband went inside to call for an ambulance, and I sat down on the pavement, put her head in my lap, and held her hand until the paramedics arrived. She was a beautiful senior in her ’80’s, an incredibly delightful personality, and her name was, “Elanore.” She asked for my name and address before she was taken by the paramedics. I gave her my information, and said a healing prayer before they loaded her into the ambulance. During that 45 minutes, only 2 people out of over a hundred stopped to see if they could help.

I heard from Elanore a few weeks later. She said that she had been overmedicated by her doctor, had suffered some severe bruising, and that she was going to be alright. She thanked me over, and over, for helping her, and I had to write back to her that I appreciated her thanks, but that I couldn’t just walk past someone who was obviously injured and in need of help.

No, I don’t want accolades or recognition for doing the “right thing,” ever. To walk away with the experience of having met a beautiful soul is reward enough.


Bluejay {{hugs}} My belief holds that we aren’t being “tested,” at all. My personal belief is that we are mortal, imperfect human beings, and that much of what we experience is just part and parcel of the Human Condition. How we choose to pull ourselves out of our individual situations determines whether we choose to become stronger and wiser, or not.

If there IS a “test” of our mettle, then it’s a personal test that we’ve taken upon ourselves through our own choices and actions, and not thrown into our faces by any entity determined to teach us a Life Lesson. I lost my faith a couple of years ago – there was no justice, there was not accountability, etc., so why even bother with faith? Well, my abandonment of my personal beliefs taught me one thing: God wasn’t responsible for my experiences, at all. I was responsible for involving myself with people who fit the profile, and THEY were responsible for the things that they did to inflict damage. Plain and simple. God had nothing to do with any of it, and I had to take back my beliefs, one-by-one, and determine whether I was going to heal and grow, or give up and give in.

I do, however, believe that God, the Creator, intervenes – not in the sense that there’s this lightning bolt that zaps everything into safety and healing, but that tiny messages are whispered into our minds, and options of healing and personal growth are tossed out onto our healing paths. It’s up to us to either pay attention to the whispers and make healthy choices, or not.

This, too, shall pass, Bluejay. All things are temporary, even the most atrocious situations with a spath – it’s all temporary.

Brighest healing blessings to you!!!

Ox Drover

Dear Buttons,

Isn’t that amazing that so many people walked by without even stooping to ask “are you okay?” (Head shaking here)

Back in 1969 I was in a car wreck in the middle of “Nowhere” New Mexico on I-40 and a couple from NJ stopped to help us and stayed with us like 2 hours until the medical transport (a hearse in those days!) got there, even called back from the next town on their route. I never got their names…but I always feel like if I get a chance to help someone else, I am thanking them. There have been others along through the years who have in some way passed a kindness on to me or come to my rescue or comforted me in distress—total strangers I’ll never see again, but I do believe I have “entertained angels unawares” more than once.

ps how are things going with Mike?


OxD……I agree that these people are angels unwares. And, it’s sort of like that movie, “Pay It Forward.” That recently happened at some diner, up here. This couple went up to pay their breakfast tab, and they discovered that someone had already paid for it. In turn, they paid the tab for the next customers, and this went on for the rest of the day! Good acts that are done with the only motive being an expresion of kindness are always rewarded by something in like kind.

Mike’s settling down, especially after his experience of being told, “NO,” by his spath brother to arrange for him to go back to VA. I think that he experience the proverbial slap in the face after all of the assurances that the spath brother would Rambo him out of here, the minute that Mike wanted to leave.

Mike’s also getting a bit creative and motivated – he’s created a business website for graphic arts services, got “hired” by a gal to help around her property, and is in the process (even as I type) of developing a unique woodcraft product to sell at craft shows and tourist shops in the area. And, he came up with this idea on his own, without ANY prodding from us!

Yeah, the healing path is bumpy, but the moments of progress are (simply put) beautiful in their singularity.

Brightest blessings to you, and HUGE HUGS!!! {{{{{{}}}}}

Ox Drover

Der Buttons,

It must have come as quite a shock to him that his Spath brother didn’t hold up on his promise to him to whisk him away from your evil clutches! LOL That is the kind of stuff he will find empowering when he starts to get his feet under him and is more independent of the spath brother. If mike can get to the point he is independent he may totally NC with the brother. I think as long as mike feels dependent on someone (anyone) he will hold on to the brother, but once he gets to feeling self dependent or independent, he may not feel such a “need” to believe the brother’s lies. He may also see that you are not the evil witch you were painted to be. Funny too that spath brother would want him to come there seeings as how you are so evil! LOL Yet, spath bro may not want him, but he does want to keep control. Ah, the games they play!


OxD……’re spot-on about Mike’s independence. We are resisting the urge to “assist” him in many instances. I’ll tell him that he needs to make an appointment, but he has to MAKE the appointment, etc. Eventually, it will progress into, “Do you think you need to call the doctor for an appointment about that?” etc., to finally leaving all of his business (and, obligations) in his own hands. This is going to take a long, long (dare I say it, again?), LONG time for Mike. This is the first time in his life that he’s in charge of making decisions for himself, and it’s very scary for him. Later, he’ll become accustomed to the feeling of being in control, and look foward to making decisions, even if they’re not good ones! 😀

I can only imagine how Mike felt when he was begging to be brought back to the spath brother, only to be dismissed so completely. I think that was a moment of singularity for Mike – spath brother says this and that, and won’t follow through with his word. Wow.

Long road, but there are many hands to hold his elbow when he stumbles! 😀

Brightest blessings!


Wini and Buttons,

I will think about what you both had to say. Thanks.


I was happy to hear that one person stepped up to the plate, helping the woman who fell, you. That was great! Also, your news about your son was encouraging, feeling happy for him.


Bluejay, you’ll find whatever works for YOU, I promise. This is just temporary!


kim frederick

Oxy, thanks for this. I’ts interesting that you wrote this just as I was pondering some ideas about forgiveness.

I was thinking about how many years I stayed in hopeless relationships, (two) and marveling at the fact that most of that time was spent harboring resentment, and continuing to accept the unacceptable…ther were so many deal-breakers that I can’t even count them…and I was thinking about the old cliche, “no I didn’t divorce him, I forgave him and stayed”.

Forgiveness is somehow equated with not leaving.

For me, not leaving was just denial…I remained angry.

It was only after accepting the fact that the union was doomed, that I could move on and work through the anger and come to a truce with it, so to speak.

I’m not sure I’ve forgiven 100% but I’m pretty close, now.

Does that make any sense?

kim frederick

That (two) in my post above means number of relationships,not number of years…sigh, wishful thinking.

Ox Drover

Hi, Kimmie,

Of COURSE it makes perfect sense. We have to learn that “forgiveness” does NOT mean that we TRUST them again or sign on for more abuse. It simply means we no longer feel BITTERNESS.

That was the exact same problem I had. I was told (and believed) that “forgiveness” meant “all was well again” even if they had not repented, even if they were continuing to abuse and lie etc.

But when I finally realized that there was NO HOPE for the relationships, just like I could realize there was NO HOPE in a patient that was 80 years old, had had a stroke, couldn’t talk, couldn’t move, and the family was keeping them on a ventilator because they couldn’t stand to “let mama die”—sheesh, my relationships were like that and I was keeping them “alive” artifically and hoping that they would GET UP AND WALK ON THEIR OWN.

I was spending all my energy trying to REVIVE THE DEAD!

When something is truly broken and there is no way it can be reasonably fixed, if it is a body, or a soul, you have to recognize it and LET IT GO. BURY it. ACCEPT that it is gone. MOVE on.

I had very little trouble doing this with medical issues, I never had to even think about what to do with my husband even though I didn’t ‘want to let him go, I knew there was NO way he could live. With my step dad and his cancer, same song second verse. DON’T put him on the life support to start with, keep him comfortable and be there.

Don’t prolong DEATH just because you can’t prolong life.

I did the same thing, Kim, I put the TOXIC and DEAD relationships on life support and I was the only thing keeping them “breathing” but NOT living, they were still DEAD.

Yes, when we enable, when we try to sustain a relationship that is one sided or abusive, we ARE angry all the time, unhappy and miserable. Yet, sometimes we hang on anyway. I did it, you did it, most of us did it. But now we know better and we will DO better. (((Hugs))) I’ve missed you!

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