By Joyce Alexander, RNP (retired)
One of the things I have heard from victims of psychopaths here at Lovefraud, seemingly over and over, is that people compare their losses to my losses and Donna’s losses and Dr. Liane Leedom’s losses, etc. and think that their losses don’t “count” because they haven’t lost X, Y, or Z and we did. They seem to think that because I lost a child, or Liane lost her medical practice, or Donna lost a quarter of a million dollars, that they are not entitled to feel as injured as we were/are.
The people expressing this somehow seem to have “survivor’s guilt” about feeling so devastated when their losses were somehow “less.” Or they feel that we are somehow “super heroes” because we survived “big losses.”
I felt that way too when I was reading Dr. Viktor Frankl’s book, Man’s Search for Meaning. Dr. Frankl wrote the book after his years in a German Nazi concentration camp, in which he lost everything except his life, and barely retained that.
Pain is like gas
I felt that my own losses didn’t compare to Dr. Frankl’s losses, and that somehow I should feel guilty for feeling such great pain and desperation. Then I read Dr. Frankl’s explanation of how pain operates like a gas.
In science, we learn that a gas, because it has atoms that are far apart, will expand until it completely fills an empty container. It will also compress easily so that a larger amount of the gas can be put into a small container. In any case, the container is full. It is totally filled.
I realized upon reading this that my pain was just as “total” as Dr. Frankl’s, and that my losses were just as “big” (or “small”) as his were. All pain and all loss is total. If something is important to us, we value it and when we lose it, we grieve for that loss. We feel pain, which is what grief is.
Grief process
The “grief process,” as Dr. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross explains it, is an emotional process where we come to grips with loss, and eventually come to acceptance of that loss.
Dr. Kubler-Ross’s grief process consists of denial, bargaining, sadness, anger and acceptance. These five stages of grief are not processed in a linear 1-2-3-4-5 formula, but in alternating steps, more like 1-3-4-2-3-4-1-2-4-5. Eventually we come to and stay in the last stage, which is acceptance of the loss.
A baby who drops his pacifier is totally in misery and pain. He cries from the depth of his soul’s loss that his grief is total, his pain is total and his life is ”˜ruined,’ because he doesn’t have his pacifier. Of course we know that his life is not ruined, he will recover, but he doesn’t know this at that time because he doesn’t have the knowledge and experience to know he will come to acceptance of his loss and recover.
Pain is proportional
When we lose something that we care about, our pain is in proportion to how much something means to us. If we drop a penny, usually we will not be devastated. We know that we will still be able to buy lunch, pay the mortgage and go on with life. But if we drop the bank deposit for our business and lose it, it is another matter entirely. Now we may not be able to make payroll and things will get very bad, so our loss is bigger and we grieve over the problems this will cause, the bigger loss.
When we are devastated by the loss of a “great love,” or by the betrayal of someone we trusted, depended on and cared for, we have suffered a great and grievous loss that rocks our world. It isn’t anything we can put a dollar value on; it is an emotional attachment that has no price. How do you quantify “love?”
When we have lost something that is of utter value to us, whether it is something that we can quantify, or whether it has no monetary value, only value of the heart, the soul, then we must realize that our grief is total. We must not compare our losses to what someone else has lost and feel that their loss is “greater,” because it isn’t greater. The pain isn’t greater. It is all TOTAL LOSS. The pain is total.
So if you start to feel that your loss is nothing compared to someone else’s loss, Stop! Realize that your loss, your pain, is your loss and pain. No one else’s is more or less.
It’s late, I can’t sleep. Actually, thinking of all I have lost too. It sickens me. And, after I bumped into my spaths mom, I was concerned how she was going to relay the conversation to him. When we were talking I was teary eyed and sad. She said “how are you doing?” And, truth is..I had been very sad for reasons she could never understand. So, she confirmed outrageous lies he had told me and then I went home.
Well, 2 days ago my spath returned from offshore and sent me a text message after almost 2 months of no communication. Since, he apparently changed his number (again) it started with “Hey this is spath, You cried to my mom?” LMFAO. I was crushed of course and didn’t know what to do. I had a wave of panick come over me and anger. So, yes I text’d back..”Did your mother tell you ALL of the conversation?” Yes, she did F you. I proceeded to call to talk about the confrontation knowing I was misrepresentd as a babbling crybaby, and I was not. Of course, he didn’t answer. That was always his game. Text mean stuff and not handle it like an adult. Well, since that night it has stirred plenty of feelings inside of me. And, I sent a text stating
“How can you sleep at night?” Knowing you were lieing to me and manipulating my feelings from day 1? Meanwhile I was taking care of you in every way possible. I lost my home because of you and yet you never stopped taking advantage of me or were even nice to me. The one time I didn’t give you what you wanted, you walked! How selfish. I put 95% into the relationship, and I’m being generous when I say you put in 5%. You were not loyal, trustworthy, or respectful of our relationship at all. And, yes you cheated me out of ‘material things’, but you cheated yourself out of me”.
Guess what I got?????? Nothing! No response. ..
P.S. The other texts he sent me 2 nights ago..stated “I have a g/f and she’s 100% better than you. She’s perfect”.
Libra, I know you never want to think of this as a game, but, because your spath is not real, this is a game. the only winning move is to refuse to play….no contact. That means no surreptuious contact through others and messages or any other kind of covert getting together. I know how much this hurts, but this man has NO FEELINGS, and no amount of reasoning with him will effect him in any way. In fact, if anything, it gives him a nut. It tells him that he’s got you. It makes him powerful and you contemptable. The only winning move, is no move. It’s indiffernce. Please, please don’t give youself away anymore. No matter how hurt you fel, never, never never, let him know that. Take it one day at a time. You can recover from this and be stronger, wiser and better then ever befor. Take it one day at a time. You can do this.
shame feelings and embarrasment feelings are distinct from guilt. Guilt is about “What did I just do?” But shame and embarrassment to me at least is about “How stupid must I look?!” Shame is related to fear of being judged by bystanders; it’s about reputation.
Hence you can feel it when you’ve been clumsy or behaved in a manner you don’t want people to know. And you’ll also feel it when someone within your company starts to act out in a manner that draws everyone’s eyes and you fear being judged for knowing this person at all.
Guilt is related to empathy; Shame is a social-cultural feeling.
Libragirl,
It’s your ex doing the misrepresenation on purpose. And he’ll always twist whatever knowledge he ha about you or that of the past to misrepresent you. And it’s ALWAYS a trap to make you want to engage into contact out of self-defense. It’s exactly what my ex-spath tried in his “polite” mail. He wrote about my “erratic” behaviour in the last months of our relationship (doubtful to continue vs loving him so much). Basically he was trying to say that he was still with me at the time out of pity for me. (PUKE!). Of course that he had been cheating on me big time was never mentioned at all. Had I started to discuss how unfair he was, how it was his fault because he totally neglected me and didn’t come online when he said he would, then he would have gotten emotion and drama-rama out of it. I thought those things of course. But I also immediately recognized the trap. And was satisfied that I at least knew the truth.
The only way to be able to discern the drama trap is by extended no contact. Exactly because I had not communicated with him for almost a year it was easier to think… “Aaagh, replying to that drivel only will get me more drivel.”
Libragirl, you’re not a crybaby… you were hurt, used and abused. You have every right to being emotional about it. But for yourself, please don’t give them to him… He’s incapable of appreciating them, on the contrary he’ll always defoul them.
As for the girl he got being 100% perfect… Then perfection has been thrown like pearls before the swine. Cause he’s 100% a loser, 100% trash, 100% worthless, 100% crap. When my ex-spath’s sister told me that she still believes I was the best he’d ever had… I thought blablablabla… and said, “He’s not the best man for me and never will be.” And that is all that matters regarding such a subject.
Kim,
we do feel shame but we don’t always know what it is.
I called it slime for 3 years. I didn’t even KNOW it was shame. I didn’t understand all the different ways we experience shame. It’s not the same feeling all the time.
Sometimes I feel the need to wash, sometimes hide, othertimes I just shudder. The spath made me ashamed for him. It felt more like empathy, because shame is contagious.
That’s why the scapegoat must be expelled. Not the guilty party, they can stay. No, the shamed one must be expelled because that keeps the community safe. Even if the shamed person is innocent.
The article above differentiates between
Rage and Anger
Guilt and Shame
Envy and jealousy
There are obviously more concrete definitions I am not aware of. I need to research them.
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Dear Clair, you posted a comment that “These are verbatim from my childhood:
“Part of crazy making and denial are constant messages of, “You shouldn’t feel that way,” “That never happened,” and “You don’t mean that.” Bleh!! Stockholm Syndromed and brain washed. I didn’t have the right to feel what I felt. My feelings were wrong. I think this is one of the most detrimental things that a parent can convey to a child.
In my upbringing, there was always comparison with other people:
X has better grades, X is thin, etc. Bleh!
Since this stuff was embedded in my brain since childhood, it’s no wonder that I fell prey to personality disordered people.”
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Um….. YEAH. I couldn’t agree more.
Me too. No shit. My mother was a complete N. So, whatever I thought was wrong. Whatever I felt didn’t matter. The world circulated around HER. *MY* interests, feelings, perceptions were discounted. Now, as a 40 something adult I don’t trust my own judgement. I am learning, but it’s still damaged. As a result, I run around saying, “hey! I think this! Am I right?” all the time because I was taught that I am wrong, my perceptions are wrong, my feelings are wrong.
I think this is one reason why I discounted the red flags of my spath.
I think this is one reason we always throw ourselves under the bus (“your pain is worse than mine”) on here – to Oxy’s point.
Oxy thank you for an important insight.
Athena
The definition of shame (below)
shame (shm)
n.
1.
a. A painful emotion caused by a strong sense of guilt, embarrassment, unworthiness, or disgrace.
b. Capacity for such a feeling: Have you no shame?
2. One that brings dishonor, disgrace, or condemnation.
3. A condition of disgrace or dishonor; ignominy.
4. A great disappointment.
tr.v. shamed, sham·ing, shames
1. To cause to feel shame; put to shame.
2. To bring dishonor or disgrace on.
3. To disgrace by surpassing.
Niotice that in order to FEE SHAME there must be a sense of GUILT that they have done wrong, so how can someone who feels they do no wrong have shame?
Here is the definition of the word quilt, and since we are dealing with the psychopath’s FEELINGS we will take the middle one
guilt
”‚ ”‚/gɪlt/ Show Spelled[gilt] Show IPA
noun
1.
the fact or state of having committed an offense, crime, violation, or wrong, especially against moral or penal law; culpability: He admitted his guilt.
2.
a feeling of responsibility or remorse for some offense, crime, wrong, etc., whether real or imagined.
3.
conduct involving the commission of such crimes, wrongs, etc.: to live a life of guilt.
I’m not sure who said that psychopaths ONLY felt envy and shame, but the way I see it is that shame requires that they have a sense of guilt for what they have done and since the arrogance of the psychopath precludes him having any feelings of guilt about what they have done, therefore there can be no shame.
However, while the kinder emotions we all feel seem to be lacking in the psychopath the emotions of rage, envy, wanting revenge, wrath, anger, bitterness, those seem to flower.
One example is that my son feels no shame for being in prison. He still thinks he is a “successful” person. I on the other hand would feel such SHAME I would never hold my head up in public again if I had been in prison for some crime like say shoplifting and I spent 2 days in jail.
Oxy, I too looked up the definition of shame and saw, as in !. above the inclusion of guilt as a definition, but please note the word, “or” in the definition. If the definition said, “and” guilt would be a neccisary condition of shame. But because the word “or” appears, guilt is only one possible condition…it is not necissary to the condition of shame. Therefor, in my opinion shame can exist in the remorseless psychopath who feels no guilt about his actions, but feels a deep sence of inadequesy in the core of his being.
I might feel shame as a result of guilt, but I can also feel shame as a result of constant emotional physical and mental abuse. Shame is not neccisarily related to guilt…in my opinion.
Kim you might feel shame as a result of abuse, I agree, but the psychopath is not feeling shame because of abuse. I don’t think they feel anything even LIKE shame…how can you feel shame when you are a narcissist? When you are SUPERIOR to others?
But this is just an argument about what someone else THINKS and there’s really no way for us to settle it except by getting a crystal ball and reading their minds. LOL
I can’t “See” evidence of shame or guilt in the mind of a psychopath, but I can definitely SEE anger and RAGE in their behavior. I can see “duping delight” and a few other external demonstrations of their inner thoughts. But guilt or shame? I cannot see that in their minds or in their behavior.
Ox, I agree. It’s all theory and can’t be proven one way or another. In my own research the shame thing is most evident in narcissism, and the theory is that rage and superiority are defenses against experiencing their shame. Thus Skylar’s bypassed shame. This is why if you point out to an N, some short-coming or mistake or critisize in any way, you will be met with a barage of venomious rage. Narsissistic rage over a percieved narcissistic injury. We injure them when we do not mirror their God like image back to them. If we find fault we are exposing them to shame: the shame that their entire false self is built around, in an effort to deny it. JMO.