Lovefraud received the following email from the reader who posts as “Saskgirl:”
I must say that your website is a lifesaver. It has helped me recover from a devastating relationship with a sociopath. It is amazing how many stories I read on your site and can totally identify with them. The people could be talking about the piece of garbage I was tangled up with.
I have been single for about a year and a half and have spent a lot of that time healing and working on me. I am ready to start dating (I think) but I’m afraid that it will be disastrous for me. I was so emotionally wrecked that I’m terrified of being there again. I don’t trust anyone and believe that just about every thing coming out of a man’s mouth is lies.
Now, I have met some men but have given them the brush off because my warning system went off. I am grateful for this because it has saved me a lot of drama. Unfortunately, I don’t have a good perception of what is “normal” dating. I married a narcissist and when I finally got rid of him, I was “lucky” enough to find a full-blown sociopath.
I have recently met a man whom I have opened up to slightly, but my spidey senses are tingling yet again. I understand the concept of love bombing, but I would like to know how I can define the fine line between genuine attraction and caring and love bombing. What is “normal” when it comes to texting and emailing? I haven’t a clue. I don’t want to go into details of why my senses are tingling ”¦ however it is increasing difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. Not to mention very tiring ”¦
Your healing
Saskgirl,
Going from a narcissist to a sociopath what a nightmare. I am very glad that you are being cautious, and are listening to your “spidey senses.”
Quite honestly, if you are feeling fear about dating, you may not be ready to date. It may seem like you “should” be ready after a year and a half of working on yourself, but recovery is different for everyone, and it takes as long as it takes. You may need a bit more time. After all, you have at least three sets of emotional pain to recover from:
- Your involvement with the sociopath.
- Your marriage to the narcissist.
- A prior emotional injury that made you vulnerable to the narcissist in the first place.
In order to be truly ready for a healthy relationship, you need to be reasonably healed from all of these encounters. What that means is that you’ve reached the point where you have accepted that your partners really did what they did, that you were injured, but you’ve let go of emotional pain associated with the injuries.
Emotional recovery
Often, we can understand what happened on an intellectual level. In fact, that’s the first step in recovery. But accepting what happened on an emotional level is far more difficult. Our goal is to process the emotional injury, to get it out of our system. To do that, we need to allow ourselves to feel the pain. We need to cry, perhaps even kick and scream. (This is best done privately or with a therapist not at anyone, and certainly not at the sociopath.)
The hardest injury to recognize and address will be the original one. This could have come from a very early incident or relationship when you were a teenager, perhaps, or from your family of origin. Maybe you suffered abuse from a family member. Or perhaps you were picked on in school.
But sometimes your early life was good, or at least good enough, yet you still fell into a bad situation. This happened to me. My parents loved me and did their best I know that. But somehow I acquired the belief that I was not worthy of love just for who I was. I felt undeserving. These mistaken beliefs were my vulnerability.
(The Red Flags of Lovefraud Workbook can help you uncover your vulnerabilities. It’s a skinny little workbook of checklists and questions to ask yourself. Available in the Lovefraud Store.)
I promise you, the recovery work will enable you to find and experience a relationship that will be much more loving and satisfying than you have ever imagined. When you are whole, it is much easier for you to recognize and enjoy wholeness in another person.
Back to dating
So, when you’re ready, how do you go about finding someone to date?
It’s probably best to stay away from online dating. Yes, everyone does it. I even did it, after the sociopath. And yes, I do know people who have found relationships, and have gotten married, through online dating. But I think dating sites and social media sites have gotten worse than when I used them 12 years ago. They are rife with predators. Why take the risk?
I recommend meeting people the old-fashioned way through work, recreational interests, community activities, introductions by friends and family members. If you’re emotionally healthy and open, you’ll just run into possible connections as you live your life.
Email and texts
Suppose you meet someone who expresses an interest in you, and keeps in touch via text and email. If the amount of texts and emails you receive make you feel pressured, then it is too much. What do you do?
If you are not really interested in the guy, you end the involvement. If you are interested in the guy after all, he, too, may be unsure of the appropriate amount of contact you gently express your feelings and see what happens. If he backs off, fine. If he backs off temporarily and then ramps up the messages again, it could mean he is either needy or controlling, neither of which you want.
Real love
How can you tell if a relationship is healthy? Here is the secret: Real love is easy. Real love grows at an easy pace. It does not feel rushed or pressured. There is excitement, but not drama. Promises are kept and no games are played. There is no power struggle.
Real love feels like a warm blanket shared by the two of you. It’s cozy. It’s comfortable.
If you do not feel comfortable with a particular involvement, move on and don’t panic. Eventually the right opportunity will arrive.
Hello Saskgirl
Your story is very similar to mine. First I dated a kind of ‘narcissist’ and after I ‘jumped’ into the relationship with a sociopath..I was blindly in love with him. he became my associate as well. AFter I ended up on the street (i lost all my money, my business, my house, my identity..) my ex boyfriend helped me..
We builded up a great friendship in the meantime…but after 2,5 year nog being able to date I realize this is not healthy for me.
So I am leaving very soon back to my home country and starting from zero.
After 2,5 year I am ready to date and trust again.
I have been away from my third sociopath for about a year and a half. I was not married to the first one but in a terrible hurtful affair for 2 years. He was very narcissistic as well. I was young and REALLY naive, believed everything he said. The second time I married one. He seemed very protective but I thought that must mean he LOVES me and is just a strong man. Married him and shortly after things went downhill fast. I stayed for 10 years because I thought that it was “normal”. I had a really rocky childhood with my Dad leaving when I was 9 years old and rarely seeing him, my mother going into a deep depression and constant bullying at school for several years. I just wanted someone to care and love me and I would latch on to anyone who paid attention to me. I had NO self-esteem. Fast forward to my next marriage. By then I felt like I was fairly healthy emotionally. I had done a lot of working on myself and read a lot about recognizing con-artists and players. The man I met next was a “love-bomber” at first and man was he good at it. I had not seen this site so I had no idea that was a red flag. He rushed the marriage and he treated me truly like a princess. This time, I was just blinded. He seemed to be genuine and everything I had ever wanted in a man. Not long after the honeymoon I found out he was in bankruptcy and he started treating me totally differently. I saw his true self but again I stayed with him. He would have good times and would convince me he was regretful and “working on himself” but nothing got better. He kept lying to me and just in general I realized he cared about NO one because he was incapable. I FINALLY realized I could not live like that anymore and divorced about a year and half ago. I have been on this site almost constantly. I met a guy at my church who had been a friend for a long time and we started dating casually. We knew each other’s stories and we had a lot of friends in common. We were very cautious and like Donna said it was nothing CRAZY like surges of fantastic love sensations, it was a slow getting to know each other better, becoming best friends, talking with each other and taking it slowly. I think I have done more research on his background than the FBI or the CIA LOL. We are getting married in October. It might be that it shouldn’t be that quickly for everyone. But we more than “love” each other. We are truly best friends and we just love doing normal things together like reading, walking, watching movies and running together. It’s like no other relationship I have ever had. In the others there was always some kind of drama and roller coaster stuff going on, even when we were dating, whether it was extreme highs or let downs. This is nothing like that. We can talk about things that bother each of us in a civil manner and we both care about others very much. He treats his children and his mother and sisters with love and respect. That’s something to look for too! Anyway, I do believe it’s different for everyone. AND I met my second one online and he was and still is a predator looking for another woman to do the lawn for him, cook and keep the house along with going along with everything ELSE HE wants to do. Beware of online dating! He is on at least 10 different sites and maybe more. You would think to read his profile that he is answer to every girl’s dream for a man!!!
Linette – Thank you so much for sharing your story! I am very happy for you and the calm, happy, peaceful relationship you have found. Good for you!
Donna, another wonderful article!
I would love to see a follow up on “LOVING again after the sociopath”. I’m now in a relationship with a wonderful caring man, and it’s taking me a very long time to relax. There are no red flags; he’s proven himself time and again to be a person of character and compassion. But I find my feelings of love are often somewhat blunted. Does this happen with others?
Freeatlast – What that means is you still have more healing to do. This brings up an important point – you don’t have to totally finish the healing before you find a relationship. Healing can continue in the relationship.
In fact, healing is an important purpose of being in a relationship. So this is kind of tricky. On the one hand, you don’t want to go into a relationship totally broken. On the other hand, a good, healthy relationship takes your healing to another level.
The idea is to have honorable intentions yourself, and to find a partner who also has honorable intentions, and for the two of you to grow together.
This, of course, is much easier said than done. I’ll write about it more in a future article.
Donna, I look forward to those articles….
I myself am wading into a relationship and am very aware of needing to be wary of red flags….
Am really enjoying the company and realize that I actually like being part of a couple again!!! I’m taking it a day at a time….and having fun in the process!!!
Sorry you had to go through this. I am a man who married the female version. Trust your spidey sense but be wary of becoming paranoid. A sociopath will give themselves away by being inappropriate. I have met very nice ladies online. Some had issues but I was able to easily spot the sociopathic so far. They almost always bring up sex and what do I like before we have gone five exchanges online. The red flags are the key. Anything that makes you uncomfortable says so. A normal man will respect your boundaries and he will respect you. Predators are not restricted to dating sites. My spath ex wife uses meetup.com to find victims, as well as exploiting work relationships and people she meets pretty much anywhere. Have a list of red flags. Take time to know yourself and where you are vulnerable. Learn to be protective of your hear but if you close yourself off to building relationships with others – online or otherwise – the sociopath wins, because you will be alone and broken forever and is that not the goal of their romantic games? You’re stronger than that. You are worthy of love. Just know they are out there and how to avoid them. My new rule is, she gets one warning. The. I upgrade the upsetting behavior to “deal breaker” and cut my losses. There are plenty of nice girls out there, plenty of nice guys. But normal people won’t lavish you with attention like an spath. They have feelings and will guard them at first, so checking your expectations for the amount if attention you get might be a good idea too. Remember, as men, we are supposed to chase but with that you get rejected a lot for a variety of reasons, so a nice guy won’t be anything like an spath in his approach. He will want to make sure you are interested before he comes on too strong. The opposite is how we fall prey to female spaths; it is flattering when a woman comes to us. But anyways, good luck. Take the time to heal. Took me a year and a half but I am regularly dating again. Gets easier to spot the red flags the more you’re out there but mastery of my emotions and vulnerabilities have been key. Watch what they do and don’t listen to what they say and you will see their truth.
Thanks for your insight Darth. It was very helpful.
Saskgirl
Donna,
Thank you for posting my question. You have the uncanny ability to really get to the heart of the matter. You mentioned early trauma…I’m the product of a marriage between a self medicating (alcohol) bi polar person (dad) and a complete codependent (mom). Lots of dynamics going on there. I grew up believing that who I was and what I did was never “good” enough. I pushed myself academically and career wise, just to prove that I was “good” enough. From a very young age, I learned to get a protective shell and retreated to books for solace. I was like one of those Cadbury eggs….protective coating on the outside, beautiful mess on the inside.
Luckily, while with the sociopath, I found a great counselor who has put me on the path of healing. I am starting to feel whole again and I totally realize that I am a “somebody” and I am “good” enough.
I agree that online dating is not the way to go. That was how I met the sociopath and I have vowed never again. Unfortunately, many of the men in my province are set in the dark ages and I’m not ready to assume the role of a farm wife. The few men that I have met and do like are salesmen and do not live in my province…this is where my spidey senses go hay wire. These men have the ability to tell me whatever they want and I have no way of verifying it (Like if they are single, if they are really traveling…etc. They could be completely nice guys or they could be on with their own agenda. I’m not willing to be a sheltering port in a storm…
During my healing, I have learned to do things that I enjoy. I’m on my motorcycle every weekend and join rallies and poker runs when I get the chance. The freedom to do something that I enjoy without any repercussions has been very liberating.
For the longest time, I wasn’t interested in dating and I had my “back off” force field around me at all times. I recently heard through the grapevine that the sociopath has left my province (my exhusband also) and it was like a weight was lifted from around me. It was almost like I was given permission to start to live again. I started to open up and have had more offers in the last few months than I have had in years. Because all of my relationships were so totally unhealthy, I’m unsure on how to be approached healthily…hence my questions.
I am at a point in my life where I don’t “need” to have someone, however it would be nice to have someone to share the highway with.
Thanks again.
Peace to all of you whose lives have be tainted by evil. May you find love in your souls on your path to healing
Saskgirl
It has been 5 years since I broke up with the sociopath, though we only dated for 3 months. After the fact, he seems like a blip on my radar screen. I have had no serious relationships since then, but have dated and had romances. None of the men have been disordered, but they have all been learning experiences for me. The most notable one, which I blogged about on here, was after I joined the salsa scene. My regular dance partner and I had a very romantic dance relationship for a year. We never got involved, but I developed strong feelings for him, and my feelings for him tied me up for a year. I am still extricating myself from this. I learned that he is unavailable for a serious relationship, but it took me a while to understand his particular flavor of game-playing with me. It was very painful. I am no longer friends with him nor do I dance with him, though I’m going on a salsa cruise in November with that group of people. I’m hoping my feelings have been healed enough to where I can hang out with them and dance with them without old wounds being opened. If not, I will just avoid them. With 2000 people on the cruise ship, it won’t be hard to find other companions.
Recently, I have met several men I really like who are 100% available. They are not the greatest looking, and in the past I would not have noticed them because of this. I’ve met them from all different venues (one from a dating site), one from dancing, and one from a mutual friend. I am enjoying getting to know all of them as friends. It seems very easy, and it’s helping me forget about the other salsa dancer guy. I don’t feel a big rush of chemistry right off the bat. But I love the way they all treat me, and they are genuinely available. It’s been fun and easy and – I feel – what dating should be. Also, we are all so honest with each other. No games. I am really enjoying it. I got a peck on the lips by one after a date the other night, and I really enjoyed it. I’ve been celibate for so long! I know all of them would love to have more physical intimacy with me, but I am very slow to get involved in this way. The ones who are okay with this will become my good friends – and for me, this has got to be the basis of any romantic relationship. They need to prove themselves to me that they can really be there for me and add value to my life in some way rather than the other way around. The salsa guy had advertised himself as a good friend, but it took me a while to see that a good friend would not play with a woman’s feelings as he inadvertently does.
I took a chance and posted here even though there are people here who asked me not to write about my relationship experiences unless it was with a sociopath. They reminded me that this is a site about sociopaths. So I hope I’m not out of line writing about normal dating experiences with normal men.
Stargazer – Dating again is part of the recovery process. Please feel free to post what you want. The only rule on Lovefraud is not to attack other members of the community. No one has the authority to tell you what to post or what not to post. And because sociopaths affect our entire lives, just about anything is worth discussing.
It sounds like your approach is very healthy. Often, involvements after the sociopaths are stepping stones – we get a little stronger and healthier after each encounter, even if it is not a long-term encounter. So good for you!
Hi Stargazer,
I actually had just returned to read, here, about 2 week ago, after being away for the past 8 or so months, therefore, I guess I’d have to say, that my previous comment was based on comments of yours, that I had read, prior to that. Each time you seemed to feel disconcerted, or unsure about your Salsa friend, you always kept your head held high, and noted what you’d do next, to stay positive and not allow him/his attitude towards you to negatively affect you, and in turn, how you would continue to just keep enjoying yourself and your dancing. You had always come off in a very strong and positive light, and your attitude would continually inspire me, personally. At the time, it was something that I was desperate to find again, within myself. Also, your posts had been different and most intriguing. I was in “the fog”, and there was something about your posts that had been encouraging for me… not to mention, very interesting.
I hope your “joy and confidence with dancing” will very soon, return to how it had been for you, previously! The healing process takes time, as you know, but your attitude and determination will impact the speed in which you recover those things, for sure! Much love and continued success to you…!
Hi Stargazer,
I’m glad Donna gave you this reassurance about discussing normal dating experiences here. I have no idea why anyone would think otherwise. In fact anyone who imagines people “shouldn’t” be discussing normal relationships here has it precisely backwards. I think it’s most important to discuss normal people and normal relationships on sites like this one dealing with so much that is abnormal.
I hope the reason for that is obvious. Though I don’t believe this applies to you, we know there are people out there who, usually due to problems stemming from their family of origin, have found themselves in one abusive relationship after another. We’ve heard from people who have confessed frankly that they don’t truly know what a “normal” relationship looks like. It’s important for anyone in such a position to be able to hear about the normal world they’ve been out of for so much of their lives, at least where intimate relationships are concerned. Finally of course it’s important for people to be able to see from the examples of others that no matter how much bad luck they’ve had so far, they’re not doomed to spend of their lives in either an abusive relationship or no relationship; that they can find healthy love if they heal and set about looking for it the right way. The successes of others can give them hope. So I’m sure there are others here who enjoy reading and learning from the dating experiences of people like yourself. Good luck!
Thank you for that assurance, Redwald. I tend to agree with you. When I seek relationship advice, I go to my healthier friends who are in normal relationships. I feel good about the way I am navigating with all of the men in my life at the moment. Nothing romantic has developed – no real attractions – just mainly friendships right now.
To Stargazer,
When I come across ‘your’ comments, they are like a bright ray of hope, and definitely a breath of fresh air, as you continually exude zest for life! I wish for this to convey to you that not all folks feel the same way about what you write, that you have expressed that they do, above. Thank you for the gift you give, by sharing your personal journey! It has positively impacted my recovery! Looking most forward to reading about your cruise, when you return…
I have been reading here, for about a year. The articles and comments that are posted on this blog have been the most valuable source of healing, on my path to recovery (Thank you Donna Andersen)!
I know I am not ready for a relationship. I am dating. I do write them off one after the other. Cause there is a lot of guys looking for nothing. Nothing relationship. I will not waste a lot of time with a guy who is looking for nothing. I won’t waste my time because I don’t have to. Either I take a break from the dating scene or I move on, depends on my mood.
I now see some obvious signs such as a guy who once spent money is telling me he is taking an earlier retirement and will be short half the funds. After two dates he is saying he will be broke? Sounds like a set-up to me. So from now on I can drive across the state and pay my way. NOPE… I’ll move on or I will be alone.
I have been alone for 3-years since the horrible last boyfriend. I am ok with being alone. I got more done than got done with the bad boyfriend.
I recently saw a guy for one week. We went fishing a couple of times. He said I should buy a pass port and he will take me to Mexico. I refused. I told him he has to pay. Good thing I refused. He moved his ex-girlfriend in his house two days later. Funny, that my neighbor lady said she would buy a pass port if a guy was taking her to Cancun. When I told her about him moving his ex-girlfriend in days later she didn’t say a word. It would just kill her to say I was right. …
Wow, thanks, Donna and Shane. I’m glad there are people who can benefit from my stories. Shane, I don’t know how long you’ve been reading or what you have read of my story, but it wasn’t always so cheery. My zest for life as you call it was very hard earned.
One sad thing is that this whole situation with the salsa guy has really diminished my joy in salsa dancing. He was my best and favorite partner and the reason I stuck with it for so long. I’m still dancing several hours per week, taking a few classes weekly, and co-teaching a few. And I do enjoy it, especially the teaching part. I still have that drive to be better. But my absolute joy in dancing and my confidence has taken a big hit. I think it’s a small price to pay to remove the pain and drama from my life. I didn’t think so a 6 months ago. Or even a few months ago.
I’m looking to make a big life change that will take me completely away from the salsa scene into a more peaceful and serene lifestyle. I’ll keep you all posted. Changes coming….I reinvented myself as a salsa dancer last year. I can reinvent myself into something else…..anything I want really.
Jeannie, I do believe there really are proportionately a very small number of genuinely decent and caring men out there. I’ve had to weed through the bad ones. Those are the ones who talk about how they want to be my friend but reject me as soon as I don’t express sexual interest in them. Or they make me pay my own way for all the dates, but still want to get cuddly and romantic at the end of the night. Some of the stories are rather humorous. Maybe I’ll tell them sometime when y’all need a good laugh. I have gotten to where I can tell a decent guy from a douche bag (pardon the language). The decent guys are usually kind of average looking and not “exciting” in the sense I’m used to. I have learned to reset my gauge for what I consider “attractive”. I look for how the man behaves over time, and in particular, how he treats me and how I feel around him. If I feel they can see my inner beauty (and not just what’s on the outside) and they can see it even when I’m down or tired, then their attractiveness suddenly increases to me. Granted, I don’t think I was very shallow before. I’m just learning to look more deeply into a man’s good qualities before writing him off.
With the few guys I spoke of, I feel like I can really be myself around all of them, and they see my value as a woman and as a person. It’s a nice feeling. With the salsa guy, I was always in a competition with myself to wear a sexier and sexier outfit every time I saw him. I was trying to seduce him. But he was not seduceable. And yet, I felt awkward around him at times when we were off the dance floor. Should have been a sign. But still, I could have loved his analytical engineering mind, his fuddy duddy ways, and all his other eccentricities if only he had wanted the same thing I did. HIS LOSS.