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D.C. Sniper killing spree was a plot to win child custody

John Allen Muhammad, the D.C. Sniper, will die by lethal injection tomorrow.

John Allen Muhammad and his teenaged accomplice, Lee Boyd Malvo, terrorized the Washington, D.C. area for three weeks in October 2002. In the end, 10 people were dead and three were wounded. The victims, selected at random, were shot while doing mundane chores like pumping gas and loading Halloween decorations into a car.

I’m sure you remember the terror of the killings. But you may not realize that the killing spree was an escalation of a child custody battle.

Psychological abuse

Mildred Muhammad, the ex-wife of John Allen Muhammad, spoke at the Battered Mothers Custody Conference in Albany last January. Her story was compelling—and heartbreaking.

Mildred was married to Muhammad for 12 years, and they had three children together. Muhammad served in the Gulf War and when he returned, he became abusive.

“His behavior turned to possessiveness,” Mildred said. “I couldn’t do anything right. He was trained in psychological warfare—he was a combat engineer—and he used me as his guinea pig.”

Muhammad didn’t hit her, but inflicted psychological abuse. “Every emotion I displayed, he used against me,” Mildred said. Finally, in 1999, she asked for a divorce.

Kidnapped children

Before, during and after their divorce, Muhammad threatened to kill Mildred. He drained their bank account and kidnapped the children, taking them to Antigua for 18 months. Mildred was forced to hide in a women’s shelter for eight months in the Tacoma, Washington area.

She could not afford legal representation. So while in the women’s shelter, Mildred taught herself the law so she could represent herself. Eventually the children were located. Mildred went to court, won her case and was awarded full custody. Then she fled across the country to Maryland.

Muhammad found her. And, Mildred says, that’s why he went on the killing spree. Muhammad planned to kill her, and the rest of the murders were an elaborate ruse to cover up her murder. She would just be another of the random victims, and he could show up as the grieving ex-husband, and claim the children.

Want to win

When John Allen Muhammad was brought to trial, the prosecutor put forth Mildred’s contention that the killing spree was intended cover up the eventual death of his ex-wife. The court, however, ruled that there was insufficient evidence to support the argument.

But after all the stories I’ve heard from Lovefraud readers, I think it’s totally plausible. Sociopaths want to win. Nothing else matters to them. I believe John Allen Muhammad was willing to kill 10 innocent people, at random, just to get his way.

If ever there was a case that demonstrated the lengths a sociopath will go to in order to win, this is it.

No conscience

According to the Richmond Times-Dispatch, Muhammad’s lawyers filed an appeal with the U.S. Supreme Court last week, claiming that the killer is mentally ill and delusional.

But Paul Ebert, the Virginia prosecutor who won Muhammad’s death sentence, said, “This guy had absolutely no conscience. He killed people just like they were flies.”

Mildred also does not believe that her ex-husband is mentally ill.

Support for other victims

Mildred has written a book about her ordeal called Scared Silent. She has also founded an organization in Maryland to support survivors of domestic violence called After the Trauma.

“I started After the Trauma because of my own personal domestic violence experience and thought of all the other women in similar situations who need day-to-day assistance, as I did,” Mildred writes on her website. “After the Trauma is women who are transitioning from a domestic violence situation and are ready to take the next step into ”˜freedom.’”

Like many of us here at Lovefraud, Mildred Muhammad has been through an incredible ordeal. And like many of us, she emerged on the other side stronger, and willing to help others along the path to healing.


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198 Comments on "D.C. Sniper killing spree was a plot to win child custody"

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Note that Mildred is far from “incompetent”:

“She could not afford legal representation. So while in the women’s shelter, Mildred taught herself the law so she could represent herself. Eventually the children were located. Mildred went to court, won her case and was awarded full custody. Then she fled across the country to Maryland.”

“Mildred has written a book about her ordeal called Scared Silent. She has also founded an organization in Maryland to support survivors of domestic violence called After the Trauma.

“I started After the Trauma because of my own personal domestic violence experience and thought of all the other women in similar situations who need day-to-day assistance, as I did,” Mildred writes on her website. “After the Trauma is women who are transitioning from a domestic violence situation and are ready to take the next step into ’freedom.’””

The Ns, Ps and Ss will tell us over and over again that we’re pathetic subhumans. They’ll say it so often and with such confidence that we’ll come to more than half believe it.

The supercilious onlookers, who’ve never been targeted themselves, will tell us the same thing. “We were targeted because we’re weak and broken.” This explanation helps them to feel safe and superior, but it works for them at our expense.

What a crock: we were targeted for exploitation because we were kinder than average and unusually competent.

Don’t buy into that “broken, wounded, pathetic you” brain washing. It’s just a new form of abuse and exploitation.

Just get on with your kind, competent life, only a bit warier from here on out.

I well remember that event and following it in the news. I chalked it up at the time to just another rage-type killing by some angry nut case, but Mildred’s version of lthe motive for the killing makes PERFECT SENSE IN A PSYCHOPATH’S MIND, and sounds like something that my P-son and his Trojan Horse P could have come up with.

I am glad that this woman has risen from her ashes like the Phoneix, but better than that, she has TURNED THOSE ASHES INTO GOLD for helping other women in her own previous condition.

I award this woman the GOLDEN SKILLET! and my prayers for her continued success for the rest of her [email protected] If anyone should believe her stories it is US!

EC your inner-warrior is HOT today!!!!

“The supercilious onlookers, who’ve never been targeted themselves, will tell us the same thing. “We were targeted because we’re weak and broken.” This explanation helps them to feel safe and superior, but it works for them at our expense.

What a crock: we were targeted for exploitation because we were kinder than average and unusually competent.”

Amen EC. Amen.

As a domestic violence survivor, I appreciate what Mildred is doing to help domestic violence victims. I admire her for getting out there and spreading the word by educating people. I’m still pretty quiet about it to people I meet. I talk about it on this board, but the only other time I talk about it is in my weekly therapy sessions. I don’t go around telling people about what happened to me. I’m also always with my son all of the rest of the time and I don’t want him hearing that about his father. It’s not healthy for him. I would like to get the a point someday, after I am healed and feel find, to volunteer somewhere or something to help people with what I’ve been through. What Mildred is doing is on such a large scale though and I really admire that. I can’t believe what a horrific tragedy this whole situation was. This man was truly evil.

Edit: “I would like to get to a point someday, after I am healed and feel fine,”

Elizabeth Conley,

I agree with your point of view 100% and it needed to be said. Thank you for articulating so well what I feel to be true. Since I have started viewing it this way, my self-esteem has really been increasing and I have started to actually feel HAPPINESS again. It was a foreign feeling, but it feels so good and light to start feeling it again.

I was blaming myself so much that the guilt was killing me slowly. Once I started remembering the great things about myself, that I’m not worthless now and that I did not make this happen (he did); I’ve been getting better. Finally. That’s what worked for me at least. Different points of view and different methods work for different people.

I was so effected by my PTSD that I didn’t trust anyone at all and was wary of EVERYONE and my ability to read EVERYONE, so once I remembered that I actually used to be a good judge of character and was a strong individual, I started trusting in myself more. The P was my one big mess-up. I don’t typically have people like him in my life. So, finally realizing this has set me free a little bit.

Now, I’m finally WANTING to be with friends and meet new people instead of just forcing myself to do it because it’s “emotionally healthy” for recovery. If it’s a sunny day, I’m actually excited to get out and explore with my baby and go to the beach. Before, I did it because I was “supposed to” or because my baby need to do it to be healthy. I was going through the motions of getting better because I really wanted to get better, but not enough to actually enjoy anything. I had too much anxiety and was on such high-alert that I couldn’t enjoy anything. I was too exhausted. I was stuck and the longer I started to stay in that phase, the longer I started to actually become that person. New ways of thinking and being were starting to become habits and starting to become ME. I literally woke up one day a month ago and realized this. I realized that I don’t want to be that person and that I wanted to be ME. So, I’ve started to remember who ME is and what I like about myself. Before, my heart just wasn’t into the recovery process. I guess I needed to be sad and mad for awhile. Everyone’s path is different.

I have a long way to go in recovering, but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel now and for the first time, I have hope for the future and am learning to enjoy the present and actually BE in the present. I’m learning to like myself again and think I’m smart again, so eventually I can trust myself fully again and be whole. I don’t want to stop being a kind person because that’s who I am. It’s in my nature and I don’t want to change my nature. I want to be that kind person at the level I was before, but I want to always be kind to myself FIRST and stay away from people with red flags.

Dear Jill,

The post above shows how far you have already come from when you first came here on LF TERRIFIED (and justifiably so I might add) I have also been TERRIFIED, and it is not a feeling I want to have again. Our world is not 100% safe, and not everyone is “nice” some people are just EVIL (as you pointed out about this man) and their motivations are so foreign to us that we couldn’t even comprehend such twisted “reasoning”—much less do it—-and I think that is why so many people can’t or won’t see the truth in this kind of “evil” as it makes the world too scary a place for them. They think there has to obe an “understandable” (from a normal point of view) motive to every act. It is a scary thing to admit to yourself that there ARE evil people in this world who would plan and do this type of thing for the reasons we know are their reasons, and no one else “believes” us.

We have discovered a “secret” evil in this world and been FORCEd to accept it is real (which it is) but others may have a vested interest (their feeling of safety) in the non-existence of true EVIL in our world. It makes them afraid and therefore they cannot admit it is true.

We have been forced by our circumstances to realize the TRUTH of purely EVIL people. But, admitting that, I do not choose to continue to live in TERROR of that evil, but to be rationally cautious.

Like EC was talking about when she was broken down with two flat tires. She did not uncautiously accept offered “help” from people she did not know. She wasn’t terrified, but she was cautious and she handled the situation in a cautious and logical manner. I want to live like that as well. I want to live with reasonable, rational caution, but not TERROR.

The hyperalert state of terror keeps us in unending stress which is not good for us or anyone in our environment, I think. I don’t live in that hyper-alert state any more, but I lookk around me, am aware of my environment and look at a situation with a “what is teh worst thing that can happen” stance, so like Elizabeth Conely, I try to get the situation fixed with the least possible risk to myself.

That’s just good sense. I know that you cannot look at a stranger and know that they are safe when you are vulnerable. So what she did about getting back into her car when strangers approached is a good thing. A cautious thing.

Just as my cat cautiously approaches new things I want to cautiously approach new people (or have them approach me) so that I can judge the situation so that I am SAFE. On the side of the highway, this is pretty hard to do. So, therefore, I am VERY cautious in exposing myself, just like EC, but I don’t think she was terrorized by the approach of others.

As we live in relative safety and work on our healing and become more sure of our own judgment (I think the worst thing I lost was the confidence in myself to make good judgments) and we start to TRUST OURSELVES AGAIN TO KEEP US SAFE, then we become more relaxed, and like the cat, approach new things and new people cautiously, but not in terror, we lose some of that anxiety we had about our own, and in your case, the safety of your son.

You are an amazing young woman Jill, and you have been through a great deal between your x and your family’s attitudes. You have great strength and I admire how you have survived and your determination to keep yourself and your son safe. Your determination to heal from the trauma you have suffered.

I’m glad that you are starting to want to reach out to others and see your friends and to meet new people. That is a very positive sign! God bless you and your baby and big hugs to you both!

Jillsmith,

I dont post often, but wanted to say that I appreciate your post about your recovery. I, too, spent alot of energy in the same way you do. Its part of the process of healing. It’s been 2 years since I left the S. I’ve been battling legally for our child’s safety ever since (and I am winning despite financial ruin). Despite all the support I’ve receive from family and friends, I still obsess over the fact that I CHOSE this person to father a child. I dont trust myself and I still cry at the thought of going on a date with someone. I dont trust my judgements anymore.

Have just read the magnificently correct post of Steve Becker. Now I have no doubt whatsoever that I was with a Sociopath, him to a T!

I can’t speak highly enough of Lovefraud!
I thank you all.

Ttryingtoheal, I think most of us feel that way a bout LF.

I heard on the news last night that the Supreme Court did not overturn or give him stay, so unless the Governor gives him a pass for the death sentence, I think he will be executed today. I can’t see a Governor being that intent on political suicide so I have a feeling his execution will be carried out today.

I also heard on the news last night that the Ft. Hood shooter had gone to his local Mosque wanting to be some kind of LAY LEADER and they turned him down and told him that he was “sick.” Interesting. However, apparently the various terrorists organizations (apparently he had tried unsuccessfully to contact them) were hailing him as a hero.

He is conscious now and off the ventilator but his attorney won’t let him talk to authhorities. Also learned that the police officer who shot him, a very tiny woman, when she saw him shooting was running at him firing, and even after she was hit three times, kept running toward him. she is known among her fellow officers as Mighty Mouse for her bravery. Her husband is in the Special Services in the Army. I can see where she got the nickname. Talk about keeping your head in a fire fight! Apparently, according to the article I read, out of uniform, she is known as a quiet and nice neighbor and friend.

Clemency for D.C.-area sniper is denied
Today, November 10, 2009, 3 hours ago
Virginia Gov. Tim Kaine clears the way for the execution of sniper John Allen Muhammad for the attacks that terrorized the nation’s capital region for three weeks in 2002.

Donna- This is very personal, but can you ask Mildred to share with us how she has chosen to discuss the father’s disorder, his arrest and execution with the children?

Perhaps this will be helpful to others, particularly since so many are given the ridiculous charge “not to bad mouth” the other parent.

Dear Liane,

That is an excellent question. Especially in such a case as this where the “bad acts” of the other parent are OBVIOUSLY HORRIBLE.

For what it is worth, when my husband deserted us (leaving us destitute) I chose to concentrate on his mental illness when talkign to the children, who were devestated at this, since up until that time he had been a loving and very involved father and was very close to the boys, spending every evening and every weekend with them doing things and would not even return their phone calls. He never saw or spoke to them again.

I told them that he was “sick in his thinking” and that if he had been sick in his body, say with a broken leg, they would not have quit loving him and since he was sick in his thinking he couldn’t return their love and care right then. they were like 8 and 9 years old.

My oldest son C. cried uncontrollably in great wracking sobs for two years. I took them to therapy for two years and we went as a family as well.

My husband did have MAJOR depression and other diagnoses, but he also was the dupe of his P-father and so afraid to go against his father’s wishes it was UNreal, even by the “LoveFraud standards. ” His father took legal control of his son’s business affairs as well…l.i.e. our joint assets, which had been moved to another state.

I didn’t want to do like so many families I have seen where the parents use the children as weapons to hit each other with, each one “bad mouthing” the other parent to the children, putting the kids in the no-win middle situation. Especially LITTLE kids. At the same time, when there are major CRIMES that are nationally newsworthy, what the heck DO you say to the child—of any age.

Since it has “only” been about 7 years since the crimes were committed, this seems to be a “quick” execution by US standards. Maybe possibly due to the horror of this particular crime spree.

My counsel, for what it is worth, is that the parents should not “bad mouth” the other parent to a young child by saying “Daddy is a bad man because…” but say instead, “I don’t approve of _______ (heavy drinking, etc) because it causes problems in the lives of everyone.” Talking about what the behavior is that is unacceptable.

When the child comes home and says “Daddy says you are a bitch” I think the mother should not respond by saying “Well, he’s an asshole too!” but rather be calm and say something like, “well, sometimes when people are angry at someone else they call them names, but I don’t agree with name calling, even if I am angry.” or something to that effect and then let it go. Kids will draw their own conclusions from that.

My heart goes out to Mildred Muhammad through all that she has endured. she has obviously risen from the ashes and is putting the things she has learned to benefit for herself and others. God bless her for her strength and efforts!

.

Dear Oxdrover,

Thanks for your post. My daughter is too young to understand why she doesnt see her father and I have always struggled with how I will talk to her about it in the future. I only say, “I’m glad you love your dad. Your daddy loves you too in his own way. He is an important person because he is YOUR daddy”. She is happy and doesnt think she is different. I just explain that every family is different and that some children live with their mothers and some live with their fathers, some are adopted and some live with their grandparents. I dont want her to feel ashamed because her father has abandoned her. But at some point, I’m going to have to explain the situation in a way that doesnt hurt her. Plus, he has bad mouthed me infront of her in the past. Also, he is very angry with me and blames me for everything that has happened to him. He’d put me in jail the first moment he could. He lies uncontrollably, yet is charming to most people. He has a drinking problem and refuses to get help. Blames all his money problems on me. etc etc etc…

Dear Sadie,

I remember a time when I was probably about three. I lived with my egg donor and her parents. I played with the two kids across the road, a year or so older than me and one of them asked me who my daddy was. they knew who I lived with. Up until then I hadn’t really thought about a “daddy’ since I had never had one, just my Pop and granny and my “momma”—I went home and asked what a daddy was.

I remember then thinking that my “daddy” was my grandfather some how, but yet, not. when my egg donor remarried when i was 3 1/2 and he became my “daddy” I was more than satisfied.

I think the way you have told your child is a kind and good way to approach it and I am sure as she gets older you will be able to explain it to her in age appropriate terms as she has questions.

Whether he is a genuine psychopath or whether he is just a man with “problems” that he doses with alcohol, your child will soon enough see for herself what they are. I hope that in the future you will find a man as good as my step father was to me and she will have a “real” father, not just a toxic sperm donor. But even if she doesn’t, I think she has an AWESOME MOM! ((((hugs))))

Thanks Sadie. Well, I came back on here for a quick, “hi”. I spent a long time doing yoga after walking into the middle of other people’s last fight and I felt fine. Anyway, I wish I could get to a point where I don’t get my feelings hurt so easily. To me, that’s the worst part about everything I went through with the P. I guess to describe what that part of myself is that I’m missing, I’d say it’s my confidence. With confidence, one has the ability to put things people say in their proper compartment. I am lacking this ability these days, but I recognize it and am working on it.

Liane,

I’m glad you asked Donna this. I’m always wanting to learn way mothers and fathers explain everything to their kids. I have not decided yet how I will explain all of this to my son. I have plenty of time to learn, but I want to be ready when his questions come.

Oxy,

Thanks for the congrats and your take on things. I still have a long way to go, but I am getting better at recognizing when I start to feel triggered and getting away from the situation to do something for myself. It’s tricky, but I am making progress. My son can tell too because he has been so easy lately. When I’m balanced, he seems to be too.

Oh and just an update for you and everybody: My son was walking a little later than I would like. I tried everything and worked with him very hard on it. I enrolled him in a group with a physical therapist, just to be on the safe side and do all I could for him. He started walking on his own just great right after I made the call, ha. So, he had a few sessions and then “graduated” because he was making so much progess. Anyway, when they did testing on him, they do all sorts of testing. Some of it involved testing social and nurture skills. They gave my son a baby doll and watched him interact with it. They said that most kids that age who have never seen a doll just treat it like all the other toys. Those with advanced nurture/empathy skills love on it like a baby and try to take care of it. This is what my son did. He also ran over to the window with the doll and held her up to show her the scene. This is his favorite thing to do, so I thought it was cute that his first reaction to the doll was to show her his favorite activity. He talked to her about everything outside and then made eye contact with the doll to see her reaction and give her a kiss. Most of these subtleties I missed, but the woman saw all of this and interpreted it for me. I hadn’t told her anything about the P or any concerns I have, so she wasn’t just trying to reassure me. They don’t really do that anyway. So, I was relieved and happy at the news. I thought this was a great sign and made me realize that I can find whatever behavior I happen to be looking for in my son because he’s LEARNING about behavior through trial and error. He’s going to have all different types of behavior, just as adults do too. Because we’re all human. So, I decided to just ignore the fact that I know a P contributed to his DNA and just go about offering him as much love and stability as possible, just as I would have done so if I had the most amazing, loving father in the world to offer my son. I was so worried about it all before, that this new approach has lifted a HUGE load off my shoulders. Anyway, that’s my full update.

There are a lot of new people on the board. I’m trying to catch up with their stories. Everyone has so much to contribute to the board and I learn a lot from them all. Thank you to all of you.

Sadie,

What you say to your daughter sounds good and healthy. I’m thinking about saying to my son, at an appropriate age, “Your father was not well enough to be a father or a husband” and just leave it at that. What do you guys think? It is true, but I don’t think he needs to know violent details. When he’s an adult, I’ll probably tell him I was abused and left to be safe, but I don’t think I”ll tell him his dad was diagnosed with ASPD. What good would that do him? I am open to all of your thoughts on this.

It sounds like we’re in a similar boat with young children, Sadie. It’s hard to know the best thing to tell them, huh? I think you’re doing great though. You care and that is the main thing our kids need.

Dear Jill,

WONDERFUL insight and I would neeeeeever say “I told you so!” months ago that you just neede to relax and treat your baby like a baby and not be so anxious! LOL ROTFLMAO I don’t get a chance to say “I told you so” very often, but then I restrain my self and would neeeevvvverr do it! (((hugs)))

I know what you mean about the “feelings on your sleeve” kind of thing, and that is a NORMAL STAGE in all of this healing sweetie! Believe me it is NORMAL. So quit hitting yourself on the head about it, it WILL PASS—I promise you.

You’ve had some hard “licks” and scares and ANYONE who is “normal” would be having some REACTIONS to all this trauma so you don’t be so hard on yourself and don’t worry about that lovely little boy, he will do just fine if you just love him and give him plenty of your time and love, and so oyou are OBVIOUSLY DOING THAT NOW, so quit’yer’worrying! Don’t make me get the skillet! ((((hugs))) and as always, you are in my prayers sweetie. Love Oxy

Oxy,

I’ll say it then. You told me so. 😉 Yes, relaxing helps a lot. I had a strange dream in a land where trees could talk. I went up to HUGE tree and asked it what wisdom it has learned about life in all of its years. The tree said, “Be. Just be.” I woke up and really thought about it, as silly as talking trees might seem. I think it was my subconscious mind’s way of saying, “CHILL OUT!” Anyway, I think that will be my new mantra. Be. Just be.

I actually bought my son a little boy baby doll after I was told it helps with nurturing skills. She said that more little boys should have dolls to learn this skill. She said it’s the easiest way for kids to learn empathy and friendship when they’re this tiny. I thought that was great and cool to give him a doll. He loves his little friend! It’s so cute and makes me smile to see him hug and kiss his little baby. He likes to feed it a lot too. A funny thing is that he lifted his shirt and holds the doll close. Could he have an emotional memory of breast feeding? I thought it was funny.

Thanks for saying that about reactions to trauma. I do need to be less hard on myself. I’m incredibly hard on myself and ironically, it makes things worse for myself, not better. It’s not a good motivator for change and healthy improvement. Easier said than done. That’s my other weakness: Being able to analyze a situation and come up with a logical solution and though process, but having a difficult time applying it and putting it to action, as far as my P recovery goes. Well, there’s always room for improvement, right? I guess I need to remind myself of things I’m doing right now and again.

Thanks for the prayers.

By the way, how are you? How did things turn out with that minister? Or is that a bad topic? How’s the farm? Anything new?

Edit: thought process, not “though process”

Jill:
Good to see you here…..and I am so glad you continue to explore yourself and your baby.
Sometimes we gotta just let it happen huh!!!!
Keep on keepen on girly!!
XXOO
EB

Dear Jill,

“Emotional memory” my arse!? Of course he REMEMBERS! He may eventually “forget” it, but who knows he may not. Believe it or not I have memories from about 12 months, they are visual memories, (not verbal ones) but I described them to my egg donor (who did not believe me) and I said, “do you remember where I was when X happened?” she said “yes” and I said “on the end of the couch when it was on the North wall of my grandmother’s living room and I was on the East end of the couch. She couldn’t believe it, but I DID remember and the incident happened before I was a year old.

I have other memories from age 2 and 3 that are as vivid today as they were then. They are sort of like little 10 second “snippets” of video without sound, so they are essentially preverbal, but yes, memory goes a LONG way back.

My P-son was operated on at age 5 months and until he was 6 years old you could not sit him on a table without him being afraid (people put him on a table to do things that hurt him) and also people in white shirts (back in those days all medical and nursing personnel wore white) In those days they wouldn’t let the parents stay there all the time like now, and also even if they had, I wouldn’t have known that he would “know” or remember at that age. He eventually “forgot” these memories (or repressed them) but the thing is being nursed is a good memory that your son remembers now.

I think many (if not all) of us expect MORE OUT OF OURSELVES than we would EVER expect from someone else. I know that I am sure that way.It is also natural for a new mother to be anxious about their baby, but in moderation. I know that you have had so many VALID FEARS about your baby, but just relax, let the kid be a kid, it sounds like he is growing and maturing at a great rate and sounds very sharp as well. Lots of loving, attention and consistency is what a kid needs and outside of him getting enough to eat and his butt washed, that is about all they do need for quite some time. He is getting that!

Looking back on it I was probably the most ignorant new mother you can imagine, ,and looking back I can also say I was one of the best! I stayed at home, nursed my kids, played with them (they are great new toys and play things!) and read to them from the time they came home from the hospital and talked to them. If ignorance would kill a kid mine would have been dead at birth! But I ENJOYED seeing them grow and learn and that is the best thing that any mother can do. You are doing that and much more!!!! So you give yourself a pat on the back! You are doing just great and he sounds like a great kid! Just ENJOY him while a band aid will fix his worst problems! (((hugs))))
PS: To answer your questions:
The minister thing was a BUST, the guy is such a narcissist and frankly I don’t think he believed half of what we said, even with the fact I had a man who was a non-family member and was also known to him as a witness. He sent me a letter along with the papers I left with him to read proving my son was involved in trying to have me killed, and telling me that “anger and bitterness” were sins. Well, I don’t think anger is a sin since jesus was ANGRY and I figure if it is good enough for jesus it is okay for me too if it is justified. Not that I conotinue to hold on to it forever, but you know what I mean I think. He also told me it was a sin to not go to church, but the funny thing is he doesn’t know if I go to church or not, only that I don’t attend where my egg donor goes. LOL but he assured me he is NOT JUDGING ME. LOL Pithed me off for a little while but I am over it now and can laugh about it.

I didn’t have much hope it would work in the first place, but realize now that it had NO chance of working. Never did much like this minister any way, he always appeared to much “holier than thou” but thought he MIGHT BE SINCERE. Oh, well….we’ve all thought that about a lot of folks, haven’t we.

We’ve had wonderful weather here lately (more than 8 days without rain—the first since mid june! So have been outside enjoying the weather!

Dear oxy and all of you. I really could use a cyber group hug right now.I have to admit Ive laid low for a while as I was upset and a bit confused re the comings and goings about skylar,I still think Oxy is 100% correct, NC is the only way to go, but I did get mentally thrown by all the ifs and buts. You warned me, oxy,[and others} that I would “teeter totter” as you say in the us,-we say ‘see saw” but its the same thing, re my older daughter. Im in a bad place right now,-my problem is that Ive squelched down so much pain, anger, rage, hurt and down right confusion for so long, re both my adult girls. Now that Ive been NC with D by phone since end of June, this year,{when I wrote to her setting my 2 boundaries, the main one being an apology,only one ,for ll the truly terrible stuff shes put me through}. Of course, I know I have to accept its very unlikely short of a miracle that an apology will be forth coming, so I now have to accept I may never see her again. Sometimes the FOG overtakes me, and I think, “Im still her Mother, how can I do this?” Other days like today, the rage, humiliation and hurt at what shes done in the past seems to stick in my craw. I was gaslighted for so long by both my ex husband and both my girls, {all 3 are ps], I see that now.Ive damped down all the rage for so long just to get to see my 3 grandkids. And she used to be furious with me! Even tho I hadnt done any thing to her. I had to meet her husband after Holly was born, to find out if I was going to be allowed to even SEE the new baby.{This was nearly 15 years ago.} She finally relented and let David and I come to visit her in hospital, when Holly was 3 days old. I took lovely baby things, also a beauty case filled with all sorts of nice smelly things for her, soaps, creams, shampoos, bubble bath, etc.
All she said was”Put it at the end of the bed.” She lay and glared at me, and wouldnt even speak to me, and was even reluctant to let me hold the baby.Ill never forget the hatred in her eyes. What for? I couldnt work it out, as David and I had showere d her with love and kindness.I was still hurting from her banning me from her wedding the previous october, when she was7 months pregnant with Holly.And sending an invite to David. {Who naturally didnt go!]Im still no nearer to understanding these sub humans and when its your own flesh and blood, its even harder.I keep getting terrible flashbacks of her beating me with that bamboo pole, throwing that red hot steam iron at my head, destroying my art studio, and paintings. I havent been able to paint since that day, despite having had my work exhibited in the Royal Scottish Academy in Edinburgh, at only 21 years of age. Do you think its jealousy?She was very good at art at school, before falling in with the punks. All her folio of work in her last school year were parodys of my mythological paintings, poking fun at them. I said nothing at the time but it did hurt me.She could be so nice on the phone, but I realise now, it was all to butter me up before touching me for more money. No More!I guess Im just having a bad day. hel, I used to have bad years!!I have so much to be thankful for.Love, and {{HUGS!!}}} Gem.XXX

Mama Bear Gem!!!

Huge ((((((((((hugs))))))))))
I’m praying for you
I’m so sorry for your pain, anger and confusion
I have missed you. I love you and so does God!!
Love,hugs, and prayers, daughter heavenbound

Dear Gem –
You’ve lived through pain with your family I can’t even imagine. Someone
here will know your whole story much better than I but as an artist, I hope
you can find your way back to painting or some kind of artistic expression
if you have the wonderful gift you must. I know I must use art as my own salvation, it has gotten me through so much – I just had to write you to say
yes, it could be jealousy on your daughter’s part, and just the fact that
she sees your goodness AND your talent, aside from the fact that young
people just want to forge their own way no matter what.

I’m not expressing this well but I hope you can see your way to being able
to be a grandmother as well, it is the saving grace of my life right now
when I see my first grandson. I’ll be thinking of you, you have good reason to have laid low and glad you posted now. Again, I hope you can
start to draw and paint again, it seems that that could bring you some
comfort and release. Pick a new myth that would inspire you and have
some connection with what’s going on in your heart.

Gem~
Days like this we must remind ourselves of BALANCE!
Keep the lows at medium and keep the highs on medium….
WE do have days when we are angry at WHY are we here…..with this situation in our laps…..WE didn’t choose this…..
These are the days we gotta “Shake it up”…..try and get out, do somethng nice for ourselves, reminding ouselves that we are in a good place TODAY!
I’m sorry Gem…..I’m so sorry!!!
I’m sending you an EB love…..OOOhhhh, did I squeeze you too tight?
🙂
XXOO
EN

Thank you SO much, heavenbound, Persephone, and Erin! Your love and support mean so much to me.I know we all have good and bad days. Today, i did a lot! I cleaned the entire house, {including our 2 bathrooms,}, washed all the floors, made a chicken curry for the weekend, when our lovely Iranian “kids” are coming for lunch. I washed and cut my own hair, and it looks great! did a washing ,folded towels, cleaned the kitchen, wrote my emails.I feel so much better. Tomorrow is my other day at the dementia support centre, where I work 2 days a week as a volunteer. I love this.I know that if I continue to give to the world, with no strings, the world will support me.
We also have a menagerie of native birds that we feed, Kookaburras, magbies, herons, Lorikeets{parrots], butcher birds, and galahs. As well as our black miniature poodle, Bobby. So life is good, just now and then I feel unbelievably sad and swamped by the past. All I can do is move forward, and live my best life. I cant help my girls any more, except by praying for them. Thanks again, you are ll AWESOME!!!{{{HUGS!!}}}, and Love, Gem.XXX

Dear Gem,

Darlling I didn’t see your post until this morning. I was off and on the blog yesterday and retired early last night.

Hun, it seems that all this rage, sadness, anger, disappointment, etc. is all like an onion, in thin layers. We clean off one layer and it smarts our eyes and for a while it doesn’t stink, but then we clean off another layer and we get a fresh layer that smarts our eyes again.

We clean it out layer by layer and it hurts each time. In your life (and mine) because there has been so many years of this and the onion has grown quite large, we have big onions to peel. I know I would get in a ‘steady state” of peace and then something would peel lback another layer and off I would go again.

sometimes I still see things that “trigger me” but as each layer gets peeled and cleaned and the stink goes away, there are longer and longer periiods of time between when I am at peace.

You tried to be “good” to your daughter in ways that you thought she would appreciate, but you have to go back to the basics and REMEMBER THAT BAMBOO POLE.

I think (just my opinion) that even if she got desperate and “apologized” it would be a superfiscial WORD without meaning. It is obvious she HATES YOU, just as Witty’s son does her and as my P-son does me. There is nothinig we can do to change that. It IS WHAT IT IS.

As I see it, we can go on grieving about this and keeping up a FALSE HOPE, or we can accept that our relationships with these children of the lie is NON EXISTENT. It is not! It is a fantasy on our part and we must ACCEPT it.

ACCEPTENCE is the end of grief, it is the final lstage. Just as it took me a long time to ACCEPT the fact my husband was dead, wasn’t coming back, it wasn’t his fault, it wasn’t my fault, it just WAS. It just IS. Of course I went bck and forth from sadness to BARGAINING (and I think bargaining is the stage we stay in the longest when the CORPSE STILL WALKS AROUND. In the case of my husband he wasn’t almost dead, or partly dead, he was DEAD and I couldn’t make him alive, I had to accept it eventually.

With our children they are still breathing so we keep up this TOXIC HOPE that somehow they will get better, or we blame ourselves, or SOMETHING to keep this drama going within ourselves rather than FACE THE FACT that they are DEAD TO US.

I know this sounds harsh Gem, and I don’t mean it that way, but as long as you ALLOW yourself to go back over the doubts, the BARGAINING, and get stuck in that phase, it will HURT AGAIN.

When you find yourself feeling “weak” REMEMBER THE BAMBOO POLE, remember the iron, remember it all….and rememeber that IT IS WHAT IT IS. (((((HUGS))))) I will try to call Lily’s phone again today. No answer lately. Keep praying fo rher.

Oxy, Mama Bear Gem, Wit, and all

I was thinking because it hurts me to see you guys saying that your children hate you…the pain that thought must make you feel…….

Since the opposite of love is not hate but indifference and love is something that a p cannot feel maybe that’s where some of the pain comes from in us.
It’s not hate that we see in them but rather an indifference…I mean they are truly disgusted with us because we are no longer usable or sometimes they are disgusted with us because we are usable and subject to things they would never be subject to.
See, I either love you with all my heart or I hate you with all my heart …I kinda love you or I kinda hate you…but they don’t have that,,,
they smile at you if you are usable or they look evil at you if you are not or your somehow in the way of one of their plans.

I was always left unable to clarify the look he would give me,,,I’d say “like he hated me or something” the “or something” was because somehow it was not hate but I couldn’t figure it out…..
I think it was anger or indifference to my feelings, I was to be a means to something he wanted other wise there was no smile, just an anger for my messing with his plans…even if I didn’t know I was.

I’m just not sure they are able to hate…They get angry and get even, they hurt us or do something to us that they know will upset us. I do think they get jealous or something. You will pay and be used if you have or can do something that they want or want to do.

Just a thought

Oh, yes, darling, mine HATE ME—tried to have me killed when I cut off his monoey supply (so he could inherit) and on and on, my Psperm donor hated me, it was NOT indifference.

Yes, you are right, they can’t love, and indifference is (in normal people) the opposite of love (rather than hate being) but OH, CAN THEYEVER HATE.

Remember the old saying about “if you love something set it free if it comes back…?” Well their ending is “if it doesn’t come back, HUNT IT DOWN AND KILL IT!”

Is all about CONTROL and while they cannot love, the can OWN you, or feel that they do, and just like you would want your slave to obey you, they want us to obey them, to be under their control Even if they do not “want” us and discard us, they sxtill want to control.

And, yes it did hurt, but like any other relationship when you work at it, it can be ACCEPTED. It hurt whem my husband was killed (accidentally) but you know, I have accepted it and I still have great memories of our eyars together. I have good memories of my P-son when he was a little guy and we used to have so much fun and he was so bright and funny.

Now tht “little boy” is dead and gone, he is passed, and the MAN who got his “organs” is a STRANGER who hates me because I have “got his number” and he no longer can lie to me and get me to do what he wants. He cannot stand anyone to NOT give in to him, to not be manipulated. My P sperm donor was the same way CONTROL, BRUTE FORCE OR MURDER IF NECESSARY, but don’t lose control.

In the end, I WON because I never gave in. I never quit fighting. He never beat me down. He never coweed me. He knocked me unconscious but I never cowed down or let him own my soul. Sure he scared me, he overpowered me physically…and for a while I felt guilty for what he did TO me, but no longer. I have reached indifference with HIM—after over 40 years of NC and a couple of years ago his death, but yes, my dear, they CAN hate, and to me it is the worst kind of hate there is because they are INDIFFERENT TO HUMAN SUFFERING (at best) and at worst THEY ENJOY IT.

heavenbound,
it’s hate. believe me.

They hate their mothers so much. And they hate all women because they project their mother-hatred to all women.

When they are yelling or beating you, that’s not hate, they’re just doing that for fun. That’s pure joy. They are ACTING like they are angry.

The hate is a cold hatred. They don’t express it except by plotting and conniving and being diabolical. When they tell you that they love you, THAT’S HATE. They are hating you for being weak and believing them, but most of all they hate you for no rational reason.

Their emotions are so mixed up that nothing you see is real. I believe it’s because they have so much fear somewhere that they won’t allow themselves to feel their feelings so they substitute other feelings and then I think that various layers of feelings get substituted until nothing makes any sense at all.

My xP once told me how he hates democrats, but he pretends to be one around his friends so he can trick them into seeing the flaws in their logic (he’s delusional). He accuses me of being a liberal democrat (I’ve never professed any political affiliation or platform, I only hate hypocrisy) and he tells me he must berate me until I give up my left leaning ways and see things his way. (LOL)

Then he says he hates the democrats for having flawed thinking but when he finds a “weak” one, he is able to convince them to change sides by pretending to be a “confused democrat”. He says when he gets one to change sides, he hates them even more for being weak.

Can you see the logic here? It applies to love and war. They are all F’d up.

BTW, I told him that I wouldn’t be agreeing with him because I don’t want him to think I’m weak.

ps; That Look you are talking about is like staring into the eyes of SATAN HIMSELF, many of them have THAT LOOK. The best I can describe it is the photo of Charlie Manson looking right at the camera and leaning a bit forward as they were taking him in handcuffs after his arrest. SATAN himself. I have seen THAT LOOK on all of my Ps, and a few times on the faces of others, but NOT many and I actually wonder if that look is actually a P-trait I know they don’t look that way every minute but when they are angry, enraged or hate.

I was spell checking hypocrisy and ran across this definition on wikipedia.

OMG, I never thought about the deeper meaning of the word hypocrisy. No wonder Jesus went on and on about hypocrites. He was talking about P’S!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy

here’s part of it:
Hypocrisy is the act of pretending to have beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities, or standards that one does not actually have. Hypocrisy is thus a kind of lie. Hypocrisy may come from a desire to hide from others actual motives or feelings.

Hypocrisy is not simply an inconsistency between what is advocated and what is done. Samuel Johnson made this point when he wrote about the misuse of the charge of “hypocrisy” in Rambler No. 14:

Nothing is more unjust, however common, than to charge with hypocrisy him that expresses zeal for those virtues which he neglects to practice; since he may be sincerely convinced of the advantages of conquering his passions, without having yet obtained the victory, as a man may be confident of the advantages of a voyage, or a journey, without having courage or industry to undertake it, and may honestly recommend to others, those attempts which he neglects himself.[1]

This quote at the end of the wiki article is so true.

Although hypocrisy has been called “the tribute that vice pays to virtue,”[4] and a bit of it certainly greases the wheels of social exchange, it may also corrode the well-being of those people who are continually forced to make use of it.[5] As Boris Pasternak has Yurii say in Doctor Zhivago, “Your health is bound to be affected if, day after day, you say the opposite of what you feel, if you grovel before what you dislike… Our nervous system isn’t just fiction, it’s part of our physical body, and it can’t be forever violated with impunity.”

This is what I’m observing in the xP. The life of lies he has led has begun to make him paranoid. It so sad. Oh well.

I know the p i was with has no concern for his mother and her well being but one time I referred to all women as, well, basically trash and included his mother in the reference as well as myself, to show that some men disrespected women, including him and his father…he screamed to never call his mother that and put his fist through a solid wood door. (I know, I could not believe he could do that to a solid door either) Everyone that saw the door was so shocked. I knew he was strong but jeez….why did he get that angry over someone he couldn’t care less about?

Der Heavenbound,

Why did he get that angry about someone he couldn’t care less about? Because he must be IN CONTROL, and his mother was his PROPERTY…so he could dis her but you couldn’t.

Skylar, yes, jesus did go “on and on’ about the hypocrits and called them “like whited tombs, beautiful on the outside and inside filled with rotten mens bones.” (paraphrased)

The hypocrits ARE the Ps, they are the judges and polliticians who pretend to be out to do right and help th epeople while they are stealing from the gov’t and the people. they are the BTK killer who went to church every week, they are the counselor or minister who beats his wife, they are the minister/doctor/lawyer/teacher that seduces a patient/student/client and so on.

Of course we all tell “little white lies” about “does this pair of pants make my butt look big?” OF COURSE NOT DEAR! LOL But a genuine hypocrit is a terrible thing—they crucified Christ so what do you think they will do to you!?

ps, speaking of the crucifiction of christ, there are also those like Pilot who will just “sit and watch evil” and “wash their hands of the guilt” since it is the P (hypocrits) doing the evil.

He who watches evil and does nothing I think is pretty much as bad as the one doing the evil;. Remember the Kitty Genovese case? Not sure how to spell her name, like 20+ people watched her get killed and no one called the cops. It took half an hour for her attacker to kill her and people just shut their windows to block out her screams for help.

Studies were done about this case, and it was determined that when there are MANY PEOPLE witnessing a horror, everyone will depend on SOMEONE ELSE to take action, and in the end, ,NO one does. If there are only 1-2 people present you are much more likely to get help and assistance.

Odd kind of thing, but it makes a kind of reverse sense I think as an explination. But she’s still dead.

Oxy,

Of course, How silly of me, duhhh
You are so right, she is his property. I clearly wasn’t thinking about the obvious.

Thanks

Dearest oxy, Thank you so much for your wise council. I know that you have been there, done that and have the Tshirt to prove it. Im printing all your helpful blogs, and others,such as heavenbound, Erin, etc. thank you all! You promised Id have bad days, and yes, it is like peeling a larg onion, one more stinkin layer after another,LOL!! One thing kind of baffles me. Why, when we did so much for them, kept forgiving them endlessly, WHY do they hate us so much? Is it their own self-hatred projected and mirrored onto us? Is that it?Are they full of consuming envy of us?And I keep asking this and no-one seems to know or care,What happens to them eventually when they run out of people to sucker punch and lie to and con?I still worry about her, at 45, she has thrown away everything that most people value, her home, her husband, her kids, her Mum, good jobs, good friends,her car, her credit rating,surely she is on a downward spiral? What happens when her looks fade, and they will!She sure as hell doesnt worry about me, but I still worry about what will become of her. Thanks again you wonderful peeps!!and {{HUGS}}}. Gem.XXX

heavenbound,
Forgive me if I am confused because I tried to read alot in a little bit of time. But I believe it was you that asked on another thread about the hate v/s indifference?

Well just imagine (its REALLY impossible I think to imagine this) what it would be like knowing that your child hates you?

I know that if this wasn’t within my ACTUAL experience IT would be one of those things that would be SO beyond my comprehension that I couldn’t EVEN imagine it. So I don’t really expect you to be able to do it either……

I denied it for awile.
I believe the FIRST moment I knew that it was “true” was one of those times in your life that you feel the hairs on the back of your neck and goose bumps and that sick feeling in the pit of your stomach. For me it was an actual physical reaction. I saw it in his eyes. I felt it.

Indifference right now would be a welcomed relief. (compared to)

It goes against my nature, by BEING, to believe this. But I do know it is there, and it is real. To dismiss it for something else (anything ELSE) would be easier to accept.
But as hard as it is to accept, it is what it is. And if I could dismiss this part of it easily, I could also live in denial about the rest of it.

And at some point I have got to find a way to detach from him. (not normal parent/child detaching) But real detachment.

I don’t want any of this to be my reality. But it is my reality. I would believe that Gemini and Oxy went through much of this as well…..But are further along in the process.

Witty, I’m still praying that the new counselor can help. Maybe it’s not too late. I’m hoping.

Dear Gemini,

I think that when looking at this from a perspective in a much younger child it is something that continues to manifest. the hatred you asked about.

Right now I could describe my experience as “watching it grow” for the past two years. (the disorder) This has grown right in front of my eyes. Like a fast growing cancer eating away at the child I once knew. I have said this before but I will say it again. It is hard to know if the disorder is grooming him or he grooms the disorder…..

Your daughter being an adult has had alot of time for this to keep manifesting within her. It keeps growing. Thats what I believe. Each “conquest” becomes another part of “their story”. Of course their story is always how they were “wronged” by that person. (You, her X husband, jobs, friends) the disorder grows right along with the victim list.

Thanks Kim 🙂 I believe it would take Gods hand. And I am having trouble praying right now. But please keep praying.

Dear Gem,

Sugar it is nothing that you did. It is all about CONTROL and she wants control, even if she must sacrifice everything she has to get what SHE perceives as “winning” and CONTROL.

The frustration of every time you put her in the corner to punish her when she was 6 up until now makes her hate you. You “Win” and somehow that makes her lose! So she has to hate you. Everything bad that has ever happened to her is your fault, or the x husband’s or someone’s, but NOT her.

Life would be wonderful for her except YOU ruined it. so she must hate you.

My P son hates me for turning him in to the cops for theft at age 17—I betrayed him. If he can’t control me, then I deserve to die.

It isn’t all the tings we have done FOR them that they remember, and BTW they were ENTITLED for you to do that anyway. It is the things we stood up for and said NO! I won’t do that.

I used to worry because my son is in a prison that is a tough one and inmates get hurt there every day. My son is a white man of small stlature and he has been beaten severely on many occasions, had bones broken, shoulders ripped out of socket, teeth knocked out, and God alone knows what else has been done to him. I worried night and day for nearly 20 years, but you know what…I don’t any more. It was hard. yes it was difficult, but my “son” is dead and the “man” in prison in texas DESERVES To be there, he killed a 17 year old girl in cold blood and left her body in a place it was 2 weeks before it was found. he did it because he was mad at her for turning him in to the cops for crimes they had committed together. she was just an out of control teenager but he was a hardened criminal and she didn’t realize what she was dealing with and it cost her her life. She didn’t deserve to die.

I didn’t deserve to have a son who is a monster either. But as Witty says IT IS WHAT IT IS.

I symbolicly “buried” my little boy and had my own private memorial service for him. I put all the photos of him after about age 12-ish away or threw them out. My CHILD is gone, my son is gone, and if the Texas prisons call me tomorrow and say he got killed and do I want his body, I will tell them to bury him with the rest of the criminals in their cemetary—no name, just a number. Neither of my other sons want his body brought home either. He is NO MORE to us. He is as my son C says “My X-brother”

I am fortunate that my son C’s P X-wife is gone and my relationship with him is great (again) and my adopted son D is God’s gift to me for the son I lost, and I firmly believe that. Without him by my side I would have died I know it. You have your wonderful David and I am glad for you, and you have your new adult children.

Gem, I know this sounds trite, but work on disconnecting from her, stop the worrying about her, stop thinkign about her! When you find yourself worrying about her, “change the subject” think about how blessed you are! COUNT your blessings instead of dwelling on the things you have LOST. She is GONE Gem, and I know I sound like a broken record, but we can force our selves to think of other things rather than obscess.

Sit down tonight and write a list of your BLESSINGS….start with, (Oh, I love this one) I do NOT have a toothache.

I have a warm clean bed, and clean water, and food to eat.
I have a roof over my head. I have a reasonable amount of health.
I have a husband who loves me.
and go on from there. I am sure you can fill up pages and pages of things to count as your blessings. Add to that list every day. When you are blue, READ IT. and THANK God for each of those things.

Many prayers and hugs sweetie, Gem

Witsend, darling, no, it never gets any easier. To know and believe that you once loving and cherished child hates you like poison, uses you without a trace of conscience or scruples,will drop you like a used kneenex the minute you stop giving and giving in to them,— none of this gets much easier to bear. But as OXy has said so often,”The truth will set you free, but first it will pith you off!” I was in denial for so long, and thats why I could never heal. You keep on thinking,”Maybe if id been a bit more loving, forgiving, understanding, yada yada, fill in the blanks,NO!! Whatever we do, it will never be enough for them! They secretly despise us, and I think they are consumed with hate and envy of us.
They are NOT NORMAL. When she was a teenager,up to the age of 19 was when she was most violent ot me and to my belongings, and I was genuinely scared of her. When my ex husband was sober, hed never have allowed her to treat me this way, but once he started drinking again, all 3 of them, he and my 2 girls, used to jeerand sneer at me and gang up on me. I had literally nowhere to turn, the only time I rang the cops, when they came to the house, he convinced them tha I was the problem.”Youve got it all wrong, officer, he said, “she abuses my daughter, shes on the game,{ie, a prostitute} and shes mentally unstable. “We understand, sir!” they said, and left.{!!!}}
5 minutes before they had arrived, my daughter had been throwing large encyclopedias at my head as if they were confetti.I couldnt win, and I told my old parents back in UK NOTHING of all this , as I didnt want to worry them. I knew our mutual friends would not have believed me, as in public, he wasSUCH a nice, friendly guy! This is NOT normal teenage behaviour, I know that now, teenagers eventually become human beings with empathy, whereas these creatures NEVER change.Love, hugs, and prayers, Gem.XXX

Witsend,
I know what yiou mean. Even though he is not my son, for 25 years I had MEMORIES OF HIM LOVING ME. Then my P-parents told me, “oh, we knew he was only with you for your money”. They overheard him tell someone. It took all my MEMORIES, my REALITY, of the last 25 years and threw it out the window. I know exactly how RipVanWinkle felt when he woke up after his long sleep.

Add to that, the realization that my parents WANTED him to make me miserable. I’m pretty sure they thought he would be a wife beater, keep me barefoot and pregnant. They “misunderestimated” him too, just in a different way.

When I realized that P’s are envious at the core, then it all made sense. They are all P’s and they all envied the settlement I received. When I demanded an explanation they finally just laughed and dad said, “well how much of your money did you give to your mother, huh?” and mom laughed and said, “oh about $500.00”. Never mind that I helped my dad invest in realestate and we both made good profits off that. Never mind that I handle all of their business transactions and taxes and bookkeeping. Never mind that without me they wouldn’t know the first thing about eating well and taking supplements or virtually anything outside of their narrow little workaholic lives.

All the people I’ve loved the most turned out to be P’s. Its a bitter pill to swallow but I’m accepting it and I’m living with it.

Witsend,

You said…

“Well just imagine (its REALLY impossible I think to imagine this) what it would be like knowing that your child hates you?

I know that if this wasn’t within my ACTUAL experience IT would be one of those things that would be SO beyond my comprehension that I couldn’t EVEN imagine it. So I don’t really expect you to be able to do it either—”

I could be wrong but it seems somewhat insulting….I was not trying to hurt you or anger you.

I have thought about the possibility of my child hating me….
I’m looking the possibility of it in the eyes daily….

I am capable of imagining,,,,

I by no means meant to upset you

I was just thinking and tried to offer an idea,,,

I DON’T know as much as oxy, gem, or you about the topic,,,I don’t believe I said I did….just cared about you all

I am sorry if I offended you. I really never intended to.

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