Defining My “Grey Rock” and Recognizing The Insignificance of The Psychopath Sperm Donor

I have heard a lot of people give advice about how the best way to get rid of a psychopath is to show him/her a “grey rock” of emotions.  While I understand that this means that I cannot let the psychopath see any emotion beyond that of an emotionless grey rock, putting this theory into practice has proved to be one of the hardest things to do.  I still believe I will have my moments, but it took an extreme situation for me to tap into what I needed to understand in order to achieve my own version of “grey rock”.

The “Extreme Situation”:

Baby boy had another rough 72 hours which landed him two more hospital visits.  We started out in the hospital a few days ago after he spiked another fever, had another seizure, and this time turned blue in the process.

There has been nothing in my life more terrifying than seeing my son not able to breath and appear as if he is dying.  I had to simply hold him and wait for an ambulance as there was nothing medically I could do to help him.  While I felt like panicking along with my poor little boy (and I initially did), that moment allowed me to dig deep and become the rock that my son needed.  I found the strength to calmly give the paramedics information and speak to the doctors in actual sentences that appeared to make sense.  I didn’t realize how strong I had become during this year of “Luc terror” until the doctor applauded me for being able to remain so calm during such a terrible experience.  I thought to myself, ”˜this woman doesn’t know what Mama has been through’.


Practicing “Grey Rock”:

Luc was supposed to have a visit the day after this medical emergency began; however, given the state baby boy was in it was only reasonable to cancel the visit.  There was no way I was putting a child who had a fever of 105 in a car with Luc (whom he still barely knows) to drive three hours round trip just so that Luc could play dad for the day.  While Luc was busy throwing a fit with the supervisor via text message (requesting proof that baby boy was actually sick and insisting on a makeup visit), it occurred to me that I may have finally gotten to a point where I realize the insignificance of Luc.

This weekend I think I finally achieved “grey rock” with Luc.  When the supervisor texted me for reports and told me, “don’t be surprised if he insists on a makeup visit”, I simply said, “my number one concern is baby boy and NOT Luc’s visitation schedule.  You can tell him that I will provide him with the necessary documentation of baby boy’s medical situation to document my reasons for canceling the visit.”  I wasn’t upset about his antics because there was no point.  I had more important things to be concerned with other than how Luc was feeling and his threats.


Lawyers:  A Necessary Evil (and an occasional reality check)

On the morning after baby boy’s hospital visit, I had the first civil conversation I have had with my attorneys in months.  I called them about a conversation that I had with the supervisor the day before.  The supervisor was insisting that I send the emergency plan I had created (in the event my son has another medical emergency while with Luc) to Luc’s attorneys.  My attorney had been resisting any sort of communication with Luc’s attorney and insisting the supervisor be the one to pass the paperwork.  While Luc insisted that he still obtained legal representation, my lawyers weren’t buying it.

After several days of this ridiculous back and forth, I finally got a straight answer out of my attorney.  He said, “whatever comes out of Luc’s mouth…consider it just words.  I don’t believe his ‘old’ attorney wants anything because if she does, she knows my number and can call me for it.  Luc is full of crap.”  He doesn’t believe Luc has an attorney anymore (attorneys tend to stop representing you when you won’t pay them).  While my attorney still assured me that they had my back (which I had started to question), they told me to do my best to ignore Luc’s idle threats and just move forward with my life.

It has been a roller coaster of emotions with my legal team as sometimes I wonder whether or not they are more concerned about their reputation and bank account than doing what is right.  That being said, the attorney I spoke with re the above conversation helped me to further put things in perspective.  He helped me to realize that I was putting way to much stress and weight on the words coming out of Luc’s mouth.  I had been allowing Luc to get the best of me when, really, he is insignificant.  I am not sure what keeps making me think that Luc is capable of telling the truth, but my lawyers were right – Luc isn’t going to start being honest now.

Finding My Definition of “Grey Rock”:

Even during a very stressful weekend dealing with a sick child, Luc was trying to terrorize me via our court ordered third party (the supervised exchanged professional).  My attorney served an important purpose in reminding me that I am baby boys legal custodian and that no matter how much Luc tries to throw a toddler- style fit about that, he can’t force the court to see him as the healthy and fit parent.  He cannot change the fact that I will always be “mama” to my baby boy.

This weekend was terrible.  I was awake for about three days straight watching baby boy sleep, constantly taking his temperature, and administering medication in order to try and prevent another Febrile seizure.  During the hours spent awake watching baby boy, I had a lot of time to think about our little “family situation”.  One of the conclusions that I came to is how much I am able to control my sons environment.  I will be the parent he turns to when he is sick and needs protection.  He will be able to rely on me through the good times and the bad ones.  Nobody will ever be able to take away the bond me and my son have with each other.

It was through both the turmoil and the reality check from my attorneys that I came to my two part definition of what “Grey Rock” means to me:

  1. Emotionless Grey Rock:  This refers to the act of giving the psychopath no emotions to feed off of.  This is like torture to a psychopath. They hate it when they don’t feel relevant and they will be tortured when they realize they can no longer create chaos in their life of their victim.  No matter how much of a fit I might be throwing inside, I need to channel this emotionless grey rock when it comes to Luc (and by proxy the drama fueler supervisor for the exchanges).
  2. The Mama Grey Rock of Strength:  This refers to a mother’s ability to be the rock of reason, stability, and love for her child.  I cannot help that my son’s father is disordered – that he is a psychopath.  I can, however, be the strong supportive rock that my son needs.  I will not allow Luc to take that from me with his attempts to drive me insane.

Just Another Disordered Encounter – “Insignificance of the Psychopath”:

Finally, baby boy will likely encounter many people during his life who are disordered.  His father, unfortunately, will be one of them.  This weekend I was able to see our custody situation for what it is.  Baby boy’s father is a visitor.  There will be times when baby boy is sick and when these visits will not occur.  Luc will continue to throw fits and threaten to take me back to court.  He will continue doing anything his evil (and feeble) mind can think of to terrorize me and attempt to exert control over both me and baby boy.

Despite having had several moments over the past year when I have wondered if I am going crazy (because of Luc’s reign of terror), I consider myself relatively psychologically healthy.  During my life, Luc hasn’t been the first person on the spectrum of Psychopathy (though possibly the only full blown psychopath) that I have run into.  Now that I understand more about the disorder, I can identify many people from previous bosses, ex- boyfriends, and even family members who have many characteristics on the psychopathy spectrum.  I would love to be able to shelter baby boy from these people and all of their negative influences, but I realize that is not our reality.  The best I can do is to not allow the terror to negatively impact my relationship with my son.

Living with Luc was like living in hell.  I thank God every day that I was able to leave that man before he killed me.  I am also thankful that my son will never have to see me put up with abuse at the hands of Luc.  He may not understand why I left his father for some time, however, when he does understand my guess is that he will respect me more for making the decision to leave.   I also have hope that he will see me as his “Mama Grey Rock of Strength” who protected him, loved him, and helped him become an emotionally healthy man.

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236 Comments on "Defining My “Grey Rock” and Recognizing The Insignificance of The Psychopath Sperm Donor"

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Cappuccino Queen – thank you so much. You are a beacon of hope for all Lovefraud readers who are trying to find their strength.

CappQ –

You are a rock of strenth for your baby boy and an inspiration to us all.

Absolutely, your concern for your sick child is what you need to be dealing with RIGHT THEN, not worrying about the stupid little visits.

My thoughts and prayers are with you and your baby boy, for continued strength and wellness.

Cappuccino Queen,

Another timely blog. God bless you and your baby boy. I truly admire your strength and transparency.

The Emotionless Grey Rock is a tough one to work on–depending on the situation you are in. Ignoring emails and texts have helped me with that. Unfortunately, (but I don’t regret–said what I needed to say), I’ve let my emotions show when faced with a confrontation in person. Will try to be more mindful of that now, knowing he gets some kind of sick satisfaction.

Always have been working on the Mama Grey Rock of Strength and I can only imagine how it will get to be more challenging as the children get older. My oldest is 10 and has expressed she can’t wait for the day she can decide to no longer go over her father’s. When we get to that point–I picture pure dramaville.

Thanks for keeping us posted and continuing to share your story as it unfolds. Your concern for your child’s health outshines Luc’s antics. Baby boy is blessed to have you.

Cappuccinoqueen, Blessings to you and your son. You are an incredibly strong and healthy minded person. Your son is going to grow up to be an extremely well adjusted person, do to the mother that you are to him. You have already begun to lay a very healthy foundation, despite all of the termoil that you have been forced to have to contend with. Sending love and prayers of hope and faith, your way. ~Shane

It’s impressive that you were able to take a crisis and turn it into a moment of revelation and growth.

Yes, gray rock comes in different shades of gray. It’s all about not feeding the spaths with your emotions.

The spaths are intent on making us feel crazy so that we act crazy and then they can look like they are the “sane” ones. They want to trade places with us and if we feed them, they succeed. Maybe that’s what Cleckley meant when he called it “The Mask of Sanity”.

Dear C’Queen,

GReat observations and conclusions, thanks for sharing them.

We must put things in perspective…I just loved the visual of Luc jumping up and down throwing a fit about wanting a “make up” visitation since this one was canceled…rather than saying “How is my son? is he okay?” DUH????

The psychopaths really do NOT get it do they!

I hope that the little Prince is recovering from his fevers and seizures. Good for you keeping the calm in the storm.

And good for you realizing that you can’t be twirling round and round in the spin cycle every time Luc wants you to.

If we can’t do NC then Gray rock is the next best thing! TOWANDA!!!

I can only honour your article with one word, Cappucinoqueen: TOWANDA!!!!!!!


Strange how real life drama and trauma puts these antics in perspective. You really are doing well. Every point you made regarding your son is spot on. You will be the rock for your son. You are being the rock for your son.
As soon as Luc sees this isn’t working and he’s jumping up and down screaming while nobody listens to him, he’ll get tired and move to another target. Mine would come back to attack here and there but it appeared to coincide with his life activities. As long as I was flat or grey rock it would pass fairly quickly.

I sure hope you and your son get peace from Luc soon.

I have a grey rock sitting on my patio table for a reminder as I am out there regularly. It helps and as much as a grey rock blends in, this one stands out…….to me.

Thank you Skyler.


Even my daughter knows the grey rock analogy. I got that rock to give her a visual of the concept. It’s just sitting there now but through all this I always look at it and it’s a reminder to me.

Unfortunately I’ve used some sayings like “a duck is a duck” too much and now she says she can’t look at a duck the same. Lol.

I am glad you had clarity through the trauma of your sons medical problems. (and your son is with you and getting mama love) Children are innocent and it can really put things into perspective.

I never have wished my ex spath(s) to harm another until what happened with the custody case. I started to feel like I would take any distraction and it was better them than me and my daughter as I ran out of money and the means to make any. I am angry with his whole family and I never was before. Spaths and psychos know how to take you places you wouldn’t naturally go.

Really get the most you can for your son from his hospital visits and medical records for the courts. It might be easier to get the paperwork while you are actually at the hospital or doctors. I just got records before I left any appointment as it was so difficult to go back for them later.
Just a thought…….

you’re welcome.
I’m so happy to be able to pass on the help I received from the guy in the sushi bar. If my suffering can heal someone else, then it was worth it. and if it protects a young person from spaths, then it is worth 10x that to me. No spath can ever feel that way. that’s the difference between us and them.

Thanks for passing on your story. My wish is that we eventually get to the point where the spaths are easily recognized by EVERYONE. And children everywhere will say, “mom, look at the funny spath!”

I say that because I read a book, called “The Art of Selfishness” right after I ran from uber spath. I had realized that I lacked the right kind of selfishness. I don’t care enough about myself. Anyway, in the book it said that it is easier to convince a person not to make a fool of themself than it is to convince them not to be evil. The author says that people don’t mind being evil, but they hate being fools.

I recently found out that this is true, but fools can’t help being foolish in their attempt to be evil. I’ve told a few spaths, “I like giving spaths rope so they can hang themselves. I even tell them that I will do this. Yet they take the rope anyway.” Still, they take the rope. They just do what spaths do.

Its amazing what shame can do to a person.

I have to admit when envisioning Cappuccinoqueens description of Luc’s fit, I picture a grown man in a diaper with a larger baby rattle in his hand screaming and jumping up and down throwing themselves to the floor to get attention. Lol

I don’t know if she meant to give me that vision but it sure puts them in a different light. I wonder what a spath would do if you told them that’s what they looked like. It sure isn’t what they are shooting for.

Skylar, where’s your man in a diaper link? LOL. Being that halloween is upon us and the baby costume is so cute…..

Eralyn’s suggestions about getting your son’s medical records is a good one.

I encourage EVERYONE to have a COMPLETE FILE of ALL your medical records. Every time you go to the doctor get a copy of the visit notes, lab reports or whatever. Put them in the file. You might ALSO scan them into a file on your computer or on a thumb drive.

That way your records will be kept where if you need to reference them you can.

Unfortuantely clinics and medical practices close and so if you need the results from something done 5 years ago you may not be able to access it.

Even if you do not have a chronic disease now, you may later develop one, so it is always a good idea and I encourage all parents to get records from DAY 1 on their babies.

do you mean this one:

That was a man named Sean Kelly in Florida in 2009. Since then, there have been others!!
Eric Carrier in New Hampshire in 2011
And Mark Anthony Richardson Jr. in Oklahoma in 2011

This takes the concept of having emotionally arrested development, and really clarifies what it means. These guys are spaths with a sense of entitlement to being treated like infants and to crossing all boundaries of decency. They literally slimed other people with their dirty diapers and they loved doing.

Spaths all do the same things, some of them are just more obvious about it than others.

Thank you so much for your post. There are so many single mothers out there who don’t get support from the dads. The thought of even trying to involve my spath in the life of my child is a nightmare I believe can be prevented. I don’t expect to get a dime from him for my child and frankly, I don’t want it. From the words he’s spoken in the past and stuff I read, I even think he is capable of messing with children.

So I’m going to do what I can to avoid the court fights. I want to regain control of my life and have peace and that peace is without his involvement in any part of my life.

Wok_chang, this (IMHO) is an absolutely positive take on “co-parenting” with a sociopath. It’s impossible to “co-parent” with a spath because they are not operating in the same universe as other people. Children aren’t viewed as vessels with human souls, but as disposable commodities to be used, abused, and discarded as per the whims of the spath parent.

This is precisely why there needs to be a massive overhaul of our legal systems – Criminal and Civil Courts need to understand that spathy cannot be “cured” or “managed,” on any level. Particularly in Family Court, a child can develop into a thoroughly healthy and productive adult without two parents, and forcing a child to interact with a spath parent does no service to help that child to develop into a healthy adult, EVER.

Brightest blessings

Hello I need some advice once again

My psychopathic ex just sent me a nasty email asking for a jacket back he had given me for my birthday. We did not speak yesterday for Christmas and this most likely his attempt to manipulate me and seek revenge for not speaking with him on Christmas. He broke up with me a month ago when he saw he couldn’t manipulate me. Now he’s verbally attacking me telling me the sewer he’s going to stuff my jacket down is more deserving than me. This man in seriously insane. He said I don’t deserve anything from him after how “good ” he was to me. Ya ok. I’m unloving uncaring etc.

So I feel I should give him back this jacket. But I would never give him the satisfaction of seeing me again because I know that’s what this is all about. To see me and verbally attack me , manipulate and threaten me to be with him again. I was thinking of putting the jacket in a bag under his car early tomorrow morning before I go to work. And then text him its there. That way he gets what he wants back.

Is this a sound idea??

never ever ever respond to anything they ask for.
In other words, the only correct response is no response.
He gave you the jacket, it is now yours. If you give it back, you are showing an emotional response. The jacket is just a jacket, it should mean nothing more than the utilitarian value of keeping you warm. Although it might have more sentimental meaning than that for you, you must never show that to him.

Your spath’s words are eerily reminiscent of my own spath’s words. bizarre. The rage that they show about how EVIL you were to them, is just a show. Ignore him completely. No response or, if you can’t avoid him, give him a gray rock response. NO EMOTION, NO REACTION to what he says or does.

Lov10, um………..who cares what he wants, really? I mean, really. Sometimes, spaths deliberately leave their belongings behind because it gives them a terrific excuse to contact their former targets.

Out of curiosity, are there children in common with this man so that you must leave an open line of communication with him via texting? If you do not have a child or children in common, I would strongly urge that you seriously consider blocking (YES, BLOCKING) his cell number from your account, his email address from your account, and his onlie profiles from your own.

Any contact with this man is going to result in personal damage. Any contact of any type.

If it were me, I’d block his number, etc., and toss his jacket in a dumpster or, better yet, hand it to a homeless person in need.

Before you respond to this nitwit, please, give the matter some serious thought.

Brightest blessings

Ok I’ll do as you say. In your experience if you don’t ablige them, will it cause a bigger scene? like enrage him more? i could see this lunatic coming to my house for it. He said I dont deserve anything for how i treated him. insane. Then i think maybe just give him the jacket and let that be it. he said give it back kindly so i can stop thinking about you once and for all. I know this is just a tactic of his to see me. Last we spoke we left off peacefully now in his mind I was a heartless animal. Im not living my life in fear of him anymore.

Truths speak – there are no children. He honestly lives in his own world. For that matter should I ask for the flatware I bought him back? Absolutely crazy I never recieved such a nasty email before. Putting me down its endless. I feel like it’s never going to end with this lunatic he thinks of new stories everyday. He’s pissed off that he broke up with me and I’m taking it serious.

yes, he will up the ante whether you give it back or you don’t. The only way he will ever go away is if he gets bored with you, so that has to be your goal.

That is accomplished by making all the buttons he pushes, defective. The buttons don’t work anymore. She doesn’t react at all. She doesn’t DO anything, or SAY anything, no matter what the spath says.

Material objects are, for spaths, just MacGuffins. A MacGuffin is a plot device. It is the “thing” or “goal” that gets all the characters in the movie or book, running around and doing something. Spaths don’t value anything, so they look to see what you value and use that to get you running around doing something.

In this case, right now, the MacGuffin is the jacket. It has suddenly become an object of value that he “wants”. Well he doesn’t really want it but he is testing to see how you feel about it. That’s why I say do not react. If you do, he will assume he pushed an emotional button. (which he did, but you don’t let him know)

You say he sent you a vile email. Good. Save it. Next thing you do is use that email to get an order of protection or restraining order. (I know there is a difference but I’m not sure what it is.) Save all his voice, text and email messages and use them against him.

Thank you Sklyar. I agree with you. If I give it back or not it still wouldn’t be good enough and he’d find something else to start on. I honestly want to give it back if thats what it will take to get rid of him but its not. He has no respect for the law so I know a restraining order would only intensify the thrill to contact me, but if he gets too crazy then I may have to. I’m honestly stunned how he can flip something like this. We had a peaceful conversation and now he’s saying I was vicious. How he wants the jacket back before he leaves for Miami for New Years ( trying to throw another dig at me) so he can forget about me once and for all. I believe what you say is true and I won’t give it back.

I like the idea of giving it to a homeless person or a shelter or salvation army or some other good cause.

Sky’s right it will not matter what you give back or don’t, he will never be satisfied, he will come up with ANOTHER EXCUSE for communication. GRAY ROCK–POTTED PLANT—NO RESPONSE AT ALL. BLOCK HIS TEXTS, E MAILS, VOICE MAILS, and keep any you already have that are threatening

If he ups the ante contact the police.

Thank you I appreciate the advice.


He gave that jacket to you as a gift. Why would he want it back? It’s yours. He has no use for it at all. Skylar is exactly right…he is only using the jacket as a tool to get to you. I would totally just ignore him. The more emotions you give him, the more he will bug you. Let him go to Miami.

Louise- He is materialistic number 1 and probably wants to return it to buy himself one. He told me I don’t deserve it and all I do is take from him I don’t appreciate anything. He is the most demented person I have ever met. Sick and twisted doesnt even explain him. He makes things up and then believes them. He’s making up things that never even happened. I could care less about the stupid jacket I just want him to leave me alone. I’m afraid of what he is capable of but I can’t give in to him and live in fear my whole life.

Skylar if you don’t mind me asking – how long did it take until your ex truly left you alone?

Lov10, Skylar’s absolutely spot-on about the jacket being the MacGuffin.

Since you do not have children in common, I’m going to ask why you still allow contact with this man. He’s not going to change. He’s not going to “come around.” He’s not going to “play fair.” He’s not going to feel sorry about what he did to you. He’s not going to apologize – sincerely apologize and FEEL remorse. He’s not going to magically “care” about you. He’s not going to do any of these things, regardless of what is returned. He’s just not.

Playing “tit-for-tat” with a spath NEVER ends well. “I’ll return the jacket that you gave me, if you return the flatware I bought for you, and we’ll call it even.” This is never, ever going to end it and there will never, EVER be an amicable split, here. The more you respond, the more he’s going to perceive your responses as having CONTROL over YOUR REACTIONS. THIS is his in-road to stalking and harassing you.

Yes. If you believe that he may inflict harm upon you, file for a restraining order, change your phone numbers, get a PO Box, etc. Do it if you are fearful of this man. And, after you are granted the restraining order, DO NOT RESPOND to him, any third-party contact, or mutual “friends” inserting themselves in this matter. This has now become a matter of “business” instead of seeking amicable closure. Your “business” is to protect yourself and use your head instead of your heart to accomplish this.

Brightest blessings

I left him in May 2009 and I thought he had left me alone by the end of 2011 but he sent me several emails around Christmas, to which I didn’t respond. So far this year he has only sent me 2 emails, the last one in May:

Thought I would check and see how you are doing, last night you were in several of my dreams.
In my dream someone had you prisoner it really freaked me out. I kept trying to free you but you know how dreams are, can’t seem to really get anything done in a dream. If you could just say I’m okay! I would appreciate it.

See, they just want to know that they can make you RESPOND.


You should simply reply.

‘It is scientific fact that psychopaths do not dream, nice try though x’

I didn’t respond at all, but that would have been a good one.

My exspath did talk in his sleep. Do you think he was faking it? It seems to me that they would dream, though, because they are just like infants and infants dream.

never_again, while that reply might be Witty to a normal person, to respond AT ALL to a psychopath is like throwing blood into the water around a shark, all it does is excite them. The ONLY control we have is NO CONTACT and that means no response in any way. And unless you are threatened, you don’t back stalk them either by trying to find out what they are doing, who they are dating, etc. You don’t let mutual acquanitances tell you how they are doing, etc.

In my case I have to keep up as much as I can because my stalker (my son) though in prison has sent one ex convict to kill me and If he can find another one he will send him. I also have to fight his parole hearings and it takes an EMOTIONAL TOLL on me every time I have to do it. For MONTHS and hiring an attorney (money I have to scrounge up) I would much rather have NC, total NC. But I have no choice.

Co-parents with these monsters are forced to “interact” with them as well and turn their children over for unsupervised visits. The stress must be awful. NC would be so much better.

I am co-trustee of a family trust with my egg donor and I have to communicate with her about business, but I do it as much by E MAIL as I can, so that I have a RECORD of the conversations.

Occasionally in an emergency we might have a 1 minute telephone convo but I keep those to a bare minimum.

Co-parents are also encouraged to communicate by e mail or OurFamily Wizard a program for warring parents that documents legally all times and convos

For our own protection NC is best, but if you MUST communicate with them for any reason, then GRAY ROCK–which is NO EMOTIONAL REACTIONS OF ANY KIND, sort of like the old TV series from when I was a kid where a detective named Jack Webb was totally flat affect and would say “Just the FACTS mam'” We have to be thhe same way, just the facts. NO emotional response.


Yes I know I was only joking to point out that most of us probably now know more about them then the dumbarses even know about themselves. I know there is no way SL would even reply to the scumbag!

never again, yea I knew you were joking, but since 90% of communication is non verbal I didn’t know if you were seriously suggesting that she send the joking response. (thus my response)

Although nothing I wrote up there is “new” (it is all over LF) I’m not sure just how much you knew about NC and it is never a bad idea to review it for any of us, even us “old timers” here.


I think in both the Hare and Sheridan books it says they don’t dream. The ‘talking in his sleep’ may have been a way to freek you out so you felt uneasy around him. Power all the way!

They do mimic things they’ve seen obviously. He may have seen it in a film and knew it was frightening to someone so he stole the idea. My final ‘discard speech’ sounded very familiar (& cold) to me so I googled it and it was from an episode of Mad Men, kinda apt really.

Mine used to RAVE about this film called The White Ribbon and how amazing it was. I had seen it but not thought much of it dispute its critical acclaim, but when I watched it again after the ‘attack’ I knew why he liked it so much.

It’s about a group of children in a small village in Germany who decide to take ‘revenge’ on the adults of the village by performing horrific acts of violence on the adults and other children in the village just for the fun of it. They do all of these horrific things and yet they have manipulated all the adults so much that NOONE in the town ever suspects them. The one person who does is driven from the town and the blame for the ‘attacks’ are then scapegoated onto people who leave the town when they can’t take it anymore. The children get off scottfree….

I wonder why it’s his favourite movie 🙂

Never again, I do not recall anything in Hare saying that Psychopaths do not dream. I am not familiar with sheridan saying that either. Could you quote the sources please, I would be very interested in that material. (or anyone else that can find the quotes)

OMG what a horrible movie! Sort of like “Let there be Blood” makes chills run up my spine.


Yes I know how important NC is, sorry I shouldn’t have made a joke of it in case some people didn’t know how important it is. I learnt very quickly that no matter how much you try to ‘get back at them’ you will never win, they will just hit you with a bigger hammer. Lies and cruelty come so easy to them that even attempting to try and deal with them in anyway once the mask has dropped is simply pointless as they just don’t care.

Mine opened up a profile on a website that I chat to my friends on 2 months after NC started. He has never contacted me, but when I sign in he logs out and back in so our profiles appear right next to each other. I just ignore him. What makes me laugh is, each time he goes on holidays he adds a new picture of himself in that place to his profile. I am sure it is meant to have some kind of crushing effect on me, but I just laugh because it is so childish and I don’t care one little bit. All I ever think is ‘ooh Id love to go there, but thank God it won’t be with you’ lol


From Puzzling People, Thomas Sheridan.

“people in a relationship with a psychopath will often remark that they generally cannot recall the psychopath waking in the morning and discussing a dream they had during the night. Psychopaths only seem to dream as very young children and their dreams have a tendency to be intense with vivid recollections of floating ”“ similar to reports of out-of-body experiences. When approaching puberty, the psychopath stops dreaming completely. If an adult psychopath does talk about dreaming it can sound faked, embellished, flowery and unrealistic, such as the dream progressing like a movie ”“ devoid of allegory, metaphor and archetypal motifs. They are making their dream stories up in order to convince their target of some kismet or special bond which the fabricated dream identified. However, after the initial idealisation stage, the victims report never hearing the psychopath talk about having dreams again. Modern research has identified that dream activity during sleep is most active in the frontal lobes of the human brain. Dream imagery and visions are due to complex cognitive processes in and around the frontal areas of the brain. The frontal lobe is also associated with reasoning, planning, parts of speech, emotions, and problem solving ”“ other attributes usually deficient in[”]”

Excerpt From: Sheridan, Thomas. “Puzzling People.” Velluminous Press, 2012. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

Check out this book on the iBookstore: https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewBook?id=581550240

I have that book and have read some of it but not all.

Thanks for the quote but I don’t see that as PROOF that they do not dream, only that their partners don’t report a lot of talk about dreams.

But I will read the entire book (been reading other things right now just to get away from reading about psychopaths) There are times I get so fed up reading about psychopaths or what trauma does to the brain (PTSD I just have to read something that as NOTHING to do with Trauma, PTSD or psychopathy, such as biography, history, or pure light fiction (“chewing gum for the eyes” as my late husband used to say.)

Sorry to change the topic here- I had a restraining order on my ex and when it expired he weasled his way and manipulated me into his life again. I feel ashamed but I was afraid of what his capabilities were at the time and thought keeping cordial would be a good thing. At that time !!! Now after educating myself about this I see and understand what you are all saying. I’m afraid the police won’t take me serious this time knowing I’ve spoken with him. I feel cornered.

I haven’t responded to his vindictive email and I don’t plan on giving him back his jacket even though he said that’s all he wants and he’ll move on with his life. It’s all bull. I’m honestly I’m fear though of his response to my no response.


I think the problem with the Sheridan book is that he not an expert and his book consists of a lot of information that while being scientific, appears to be his own conclusion on a number of test results for other disorders that he then connects to psychopathy himself. A lot of it sounds like the rumblings of an insane person to me, (especially when you see him talk in person lol) so much of it I take with a pinch of salt when he starts to go truly overboard. I did find the dream thing interesting though and because of how, where and why we dream to me it does seem feasible that they wouldn’t dream.

Lov10, if you are interested in seeking another restraining order, I would strongly urge you to contact your local domestic violence hotline to learn what your options are. Or, you can visit http://www.ndvh.org for a list of resources in your area.

You are NOT the first person to allow someone back after a restraining order has expired. I know about a dozen women (and, 1 man) who actually allowed their abusers back while the restraining orders were still in effect!

Drop the shame, Lov10. Shame doesn’t solve anything and it’s an exercise in self-harm. We ALL make decisions that, in hindsight, were probably not the wisest ones to make. It’s okay. Really, it is. Now that you are aware of what you’re dealing with, you “know” what you’re dealing with (if THAT makes sense, I’d be amazed). So, you’re okay.

And, good for you for not responding. Now, you have the option of blocking his emails, his texts, etc. without “feeling” that you somehow OWE this jackass access to your emotions!

Hugs and brightest blessings

EDIT ADD: a recent statistic on domestic violence amended a previous one in that it typically requires a victim of domestic violence/abuse to “take back” their abuser no less than 7 times before they “get it” about the abuser and disallow the relationship to continue.

Never Again,
thanks for that quote. That is exactly my experience with the ex-spath. He made up a dream at the very beginning of our relationshit. He said that he dreamed that we were going on a trip but once we got there, I realized I had forgotten my suitcase and he was sooo angry with me for being so stupid.

I was insulted because I believed that you dream about things as you perceive them and that he perceived me to be so stupid that I would forget my suitcase.

After that, I don’t recall him telling me about any dreams for the next 25 years, BUT he did talk in his sleep and I really don’t think it was fake. People who are emotionally immature tend to talk in their sleep, just as children do.

It’s possible that he didn’t remember his dreams or that they were so perverse that he wouldn’t want to relate them. The other possibility is that they don’t tell their dreams because they NEVER reveal anything truthful about themselves. They don’t want anyone to know the real them and hiding what they dream about would be part of that.

I also knew a narcissist who talked in his sleep. He would relate his dreams to me and I would interpret them for him. The symbolism was always about shame, mother issues, shallow existence, etc… it was amazing, as if his subconscious was trying to tell him what was wrong with him. He didn’t like some of my interpretations.

Truthy’s advice is spot on. If anyone asks, why you were cordial, just say that you are afraid of him and thought appeasing his anger would make him go away, but now you understand that you cannot ever appease an abuser because it just enables them to keep abusing.

Stated in those terms, anyone will understand and will also see that you have good insight into the workings of narcissistic abuse.

Never again,

Being in the medical profession (now retired) I tend to look at RESEARCH rather than ramblings as valid. There is a lot of bull hockey out there about a lot of psychological things, especially psychopathy. So we have to be careful what we believe. LOL


Good advice about ditching the shame, and do contact the police about the new restraining order. And the DV hot line in your area. Good luck Stay strong. (((hugs)))


I know what you mean and I think in our frantic search for answers we tend to take in a load of bull on the subject. Some things I read I have a little laugh about, but frankly anything bad I read about them is good for me to hear as it helps with my recovery. Why let facts get in the way when you are trying to set yourself free from someone lol

I don’t really care about all the ins and outs of what was wrong with my ex spath, all I need to know is he is evil and I want him out of my life and will never let him back in again. Though a part of me wants to see him get what’s coming to him, I don’t feel the need to bring him down myself as it will be much more enjoyable to hear he has done that all by himself.

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