Hopefully, many of you read this blog because you want to know how a trained psychiatrist deals with the issues you also face. I am not glad to be eternally tied to a psychopath, but since I am, you and I share the same challenges. We can reflect on these challenges together and we will all be better and stronger.
This week I received an email from one of my ex-husband’s family members, so I will put off the planned discussion of psychopathic anxiety to address the issues raised by the email. The email points to the trivializing of the sociopath’s/psychopath’s behavior that family members often do. This week give some thought as to how you will deal with others who trivialize a sociopath’s/psychopath’s behavior or perhaps your own tendency to “excuse” what he/she does.
In case you missed this, my ex-husband is in prison and is a sex offender. Regarding the events which led to the prison sentence, one of his blood relatives just wrote me, “but I don’t agree with all of his choices and in all fairness I do understand your disgust with ________’s actions.”
I want to ask all of you to consider this question: Do sociopaths/psychopaths make choices? If they do what does it mean when we say we “disagree” with their choices? What is the difference between disagreeing with their choices vs. being “disgusted” by them?
Last night at La Salsa, my favorite restaurant I made a choice. I chose to have fish tacos and some chips. I chose the fish tacos because I really like them. If I didn’t like fish tacos I wouldn’t choose them. I have to also confess, that I ate a small amount of ice cream when I got home, even though I am counting calories. I also really like ice cream.
My food choices were indeed choices, but notice that you learn about me from my choices. In regards to the ice cream, you learn that my impulse control regarding food is only fair in that I ate the ice cream even though I am making an effort to reduce the amount of fat I eat. If you have met me, you know that I am not particularly overweight so you probably wouldn’t hold my ice cream consumption against me.
What we learn from my eating behavior is that all choices reflect the chooser and his/her circumstances. I ate the fish tacos because I went to La Salsa. I ate the ice cream because it was in my freezer. If I hadn’t gone to La Salsa or had ice cream in the freezer, I would have eaten differently.
That gets me to sociopaths/psychopaths. These individuals do not just make “choices.” They, with malice and forethought set up situations where they will be able to gratify their deviant impulses. My former husband sought me out so he would have access to victims in addition to me. The choices he made started with his looking for his next victim on the internet. That victim turned out to be me. This situation is analogous to my eating the ice cream last night, because although I am trying to eat healthier, I did buy the ice cream and put it in the freezer myself. I would have eaten 250 less calories last night if I didn’t buy the ice cream in the first place.
It is clear that a person’s pattern of choices reflects that person’s drives and impulse control. Most sociopaths/psychopaths have a clear pattern of “choices” that show clearly what and who they really are. During psychiatry residency I was taught that the best predictor of what a person will do in the future is what that person has done in the past. This is because the past is a reflection of who that person is.
If choices are a reflection of our person and our drives are we without choice in the end? The beauty of it is that we do have choices because as humans we have some capacity to set up our environments and to modify our drives. If it was really necessary for me to avoid ice cream, I simply would stop buying it in the first place. I can also work on liking fruit or some other healthier alternative. As a human I can change what I like, what I want and ultimately what I do.
On the other hand, if you really understand the connection between what a sociopath/psychopath chooses and what he/she IS you will move from disagreeing with the choices to being disgusted by the person. Merriam Webster’s online dictionary defines disgust as:
1. to provoke to loathing, repugnance, or aversion : be offensive to
2. to cause (one) to lose an interest or intention
Notice that seeing the connection between choices, behavior and the nature of a psychopath, provokes loathing, repugnance, aversion and loss of interest in the person. I have stated before that I believe the people who are “fascinated” by psychopaths do not understand them. Understanding psychopaths breeds contempt not fascination.
The other difference between disagreeing with what a psychopath does and being disgusted, is that disagreeing is an intellectual exercise, while disgust is an emotion. If you are disgusted by psychopaths, that emotion means you comprehend WHAT THEY ARE with your entire being.
Can sociopaths/psychopaths get help or ever make different choices?
The problem with psychopaths is that they are so grandiose that they never examine their own behavior, nor do they ever seek to modify their choices. The choices they make are a deep reflection of their pathology. That pathology includes a lack of desire to be anything other than what they are. But why don’t sociopaths/psychopaths desire to change? The answer is that they enjoy their choices too much. They also do not have insight enough to comprehend that their drives are deviant. They think everyone else is as they are, only weaker.
The other problem is that drives are triggered by the things that remind us of our pleasures. Since people trigger the sociopath’s/psychopath’s deviant drives for sex and power, in order to begin to be different they would have to stay away from other people. Since sociopaths/psychopaths don’t want to be alone, they can never take the steps required for change. They will therefore never be anything other than what they are- dangerous to everyone.
Dr. Leedom
“Psychopaths both enjoy power and sex and at times pursue these compulsively in the absence of pleasure. In any case they sacrifice long term well-being for short term “gain.”
Interesting insomuch that one thing I heard said about them is:
“What feels good is good”
And the long-term cause and effect never comes into play. In fact because of this they learn nothing from experience.
Again what is that old saying?
“If we don’t learn from history, we are destined to repeat it”
Benzthere
“They become as addicted to their behavior as the drug addict is to the drug, so their choices, and they do choose, become predictable”
Oh did you say a mouth full!
They are so predictable to it gets funny at time. I don’t mean to be rude but OMG, I just laugh and laugh sometimes at their predictability..
And have learned over time that this “predictability” has become my greatest accessed.
[What we choice today will define what happens tomorrow]
Should have been “choose”, sorry for the typo..
In response to Dr. Leedom’s posting”Before I left my ex, I remember approaching my mother-in-law and seeking her help to try to change some of his behaviors. I remember she said, “I know how he acts, but he is who he is and he is not going to ever change. You just have to accept him the way he is.” After the separation, my ex’s family supported him 100%…even knowing my character for so long and knowing his, they made an outward show of total support for my ex. A shiny outward appearance was always the number one priority to my husband, and I think this was a value he picked up from his family. It didn’t matter how he behaved privately”his public performance was and still is an A+. I know that environment contributes to how a psychopath develops. Maybe families of psychopaths value outward appearance, so the psychopath grows up learning this skill. When the psychopath is exposed, the family’s natural tendency is to paint the best face possible”even when they know the truth.
I think to describe ones feelings toward a psychopath as “disgusted” shows anger”which is very understandable”but I am starting to realize that anger hurts the victim more than it does the perpertrator. The perpertrator probably enjoys the fact that the victim is still so hurt. He probably feels great that he has that effect/power over the victim.
When Dr. Leedom says that “understanding psychopaths breeds contempt..not fascination”. I think this is true”at first, but additionally understanding pyschopaths breeds things like wisdom (not to be manipulated, used, etc. again), understanding and nonjudgement of others (you realize that not all is what it appears) and personal growth (I am a better person for having gone through this ordeal).
Fran,
Yes, I know that what I have learned, Is allowing me to be “that better person”..
Which takes me back to the question. “What have I learned from this experience?”
Dear OxDrover,
You always need to be careful with your P…..and I think you are right that they never believe they loose….they look at life differently…..they look at the larger timeline….that is what the father of my child did….he said he was going to drain me and he did….it took 13 years….I struggled…in many ways….emotionally, physically, financially….I had to live with my parents….so I was under “parents rule”….I was getting by, not strong….and I could not find a husband….instead I found the second P….who did me in….and I know my x waited for the win…..He said he would do it and he did….I chose not to fight while my daughter was in H.School for “her”…she had enough..and I miss her because she is gone now! I don’t have a relationship with her anymore….
So my point…..be careful with these P’s…..they are thinking well ahead of most of us….it’s like a game of chess for them…..you have to expect the worst and prepair….better to be ready than sorry!
As far as the second P for me….the con-artist….I am fear for my life of this one! He threatened to kill me….I live anonomously, moving around alot….until I can change my name….but here is a big problem with it all….I looked into change of name and guess what you have to post it in a news paper 2 times….and today….newspapers publish on-line….I am asking for legislative change about that one! If your life has been threatened you should not have to post it in a newspaper!
My last P has copies of my tax returns with mine and my daughters ss#…I tried to tell her to change her ss# at least…she ignores me as though I am too over worried about all of this…I was being followed for a while there…..until I moved…here’s the story….
1st incident….I had just started dating this guy…on this particular day of the week I usually went to the guy with a friend and came home alone at 8pm…but I called him to meet me home….and from the side of my house came a guy….my friend at the time yelled at me to turn and see who this guy is….I had never seen him….the next day there was a baseball bat at the side of the house in a garbage pail….this was my garbage pail. Could have been a coincidence….
Then for a couple of months I was being obviously followed home from work…after that first incident I started watching….one time my girlfriend and I were walking to the parking garage from the casino we both worked at and this guy was getting a little too close for comfort. I told her to stop for a minute. He walked past us, and went about 10 feet…walking like he was lost…he turns around and I look him right in the eye….and he walks again toward and past us! Could have been a coincidence…maybe not!
Than, in a seperate incident with the same girlfriend who was walking me to my car….actually this time we decided to go to her car first and drive to my car….we are stopped for a while talking to each other maybe 5 minutes….then I click on my door open on my keys…and my lights flash with that….and you can see that from the floor above and below….all of a sudden this big Italian looking thug is walking down the stairs with that “evil thug stare”….He starts walking toward us…my heart was pounding….than he stops pretends to throw something in the garbage pail there turns around and goes to the stairs again…stops (as if he didn’t know if he should go up or down) then he goes down the stairs…and you have to know how disgustingly smelly of urine the stairwell is…and that the elevators are right next to them! So I get out of the car and my girlfriend rolls down her window and yells…if that Mother F’er comes back I’m running him over the side of the building!
I get in my car all shaken, look in my rear view mirror and see another thug….staring me down in the mirror…I call My girlfriend to tell her and she yells at me to back out quick….get out….I called the investigator about this and he shrugged it off like I was nuts….people just don’t want to believe the possibility of these P’s…..I lived it….I had two witnesses….
And I could have been thrown over the side of the building or abducted! And guess what two weeks later those prostitues were found murdered in AC…..and guess what My P has….a foot fettish….and guess what else… when I first met him he talked alot about prostitutes…in fact one time he brought me up to one in Tropicana and was talking about hiring her….I was surprised…but I laughed it off…thinking he was just playing around….and one more thing….the x finace told me he had called her once from an unusual # that she called back and it was a seedy hotel near the Tropicana….I don’t know which one but the “Flamingo” is near the Tropicana…that was the hotel in ? according to the news…I told the investigators on that case what was happening to me…and all of this and they called me back for questioning a few times…then I went to court trying to get a restraining order because of the following incident…
and there were a couple of others in between…
but this particular day…was a wednesday and my boyfriend was meeting me at Boscov’s department store upstairs where the SBA (small business association) was holding a meeting and I had been going to for a few weeks by myself after work! I was on the phone with him he was maybe five minutes away and I was walking toward the stairs and he asked me to buy him some candy I hung up…. All of a sudden I see the P walking toward me. I was so afraid….but I knew my boyfriend would be here any minute….The P says to me….”you ruined my life…I told you what I was going to do to you if you went to the police”…which was hide all the money and kill me if he had to. Then my boyfriend walked up and he changed his toon and told my boyfriend that he was just apologising for the problems he had created….then he had to go to the bathroom…and my boyfriend said he had to go too…so they went in together….my boyfriend said I just hope you pay her back! When he came out he was apologetic….but I turned to him and told him I had been in touch with Soraya….He almost lost his mind….that was the x finance….he has a new fiance now….I said the prosecutors office told me about her…she has been talking to them! Now he know’s….and his game is exposed….I’m not the “crazy”…that he and his attorney are trying to make me out to be…..there are two victims now….me and Soraya….
I never got a restraining order….his lawyer managed to make me drop the charges….I’m not even sure if any of this was legal…..heres what happened in court…
The day we were scheduled to be there….my boyfriend was a little mad that moring because he had to take my dog for a walk and the little 7 lb yorkie got his shirt dirty and he had to iron another one! So he was sitting outside by himself while me and my girlfriend were on line….then the P and his attorney happened to go outside and stand next to where my boyfriend was sitting and what they said was horrible….they said they were going to have to make me out to look “Crazy”….his lawyer said this was very serious….apparently I didn’t even realize he could go to jail for this because there was a stay away order! Then they talked about the cape may case…his lawyer said don’t worry I have Megan Hoerner in the bag! Then he said he would talk to this judge and prosecutor now!
So I decided not to use my boyfriend as a witness…because we were planing to move and I did’nt want to give up his name…so only my girlfriend and I went to court….the prosecutor never talked to me after that first day….she never came up to me to ask me any questions the day of the hearing…nothing…In fact I asked her how long it would take for Dennis to get here from the prison he was in (for a different account) and she was rude and said it will be when it will be…then his attorney and her were chatting like best buddies! When they questioned my girlfriend they said they were not hearing anything other than the Boscov’s incident…then the hearing started the P was finally in court and his attorney was questioning me….I almost cried…he was yelling at me so abruptly….asking for my boyfriends name….oh and I forgot when I had gotten to court we met at the door at the same time….he used that in his debate….saying it was just a coincidence just like me and Dennis meeting….although with a stay away order he has the responsiblity to walk the other way…not toward me! But I was the bad guy….this attorney managed to make it out to be my boyfriend spying on them….for what reason would I do that…..They wanted to know who my boyfriend is….I said I couldn’t tell them…the judge was agreeing with the lawer and wanted that info…I explained to him how I felt unsafe and that we were moving….he said give it up or I will have to charge you with contempt of court….I still wouldn’t…insisting this is not right….I could not because I felt threatened….he said I had to drop the charges or give up the name….I dropped the charges…
I am still in fear for my life….and I am still unsure of how to handle all of this…..
Dear Bird,
I wish I knew what I know today about getting child support and about these P’s……I faught for years in court for child support….I have many stories….and I spent more money than I ever received in support….so I will tell you to focus on yourself getting a decent career and moving forward with your life…and don’t tell social services the name of the guy either…don’t…tell them it was a one nite stand! Leave him out of the picture completely…..If you need help from Social Services go for it…you can get alot of help there with child care and other things but do not tell them who he is….or they will bring him back into your lives! And believe me you are better off on your own! You can do this!
DEar Trish,
Your story sounds like some paranoid delusion—just like mine does! That doesn’t mean it isn’t true, just that it is “unbelieveable.” LOL My psychotherapist had me bring in a witness and court documents the second time I went to him to prove that I wasn’t just a “deluisional nut case” (my words not his) LOL
Yes, some of your stuff may actually have been coincidence, and maybe not! I also chose to RUN, and I managed somehow to do so in a sensible manner–picked a place and way to live that was in “plain sight” and yet hidden (an RV in a recreational area doesn’t stick out as new or different and no one is curious about just another RV coming in for the summer) I got my things out of the house a little at a time so they wouldn’t even know I was gone until it was complete and on the last load, I took the dogs.
I was fortunate enough that the Trojan Horse P’s record was sooooo awful (sexual predation on 3 children) that the local law enforcement in our small rural area believed me that he was a “bad actor”—I’m not sure if they believed ALL of the story, but they did believe enough of it that when the TH-P was caught with a gun after he tried to break into my son’s home with it, he went to jail, along with my DIL for buying the gun for him (her story that she bought it for herself and accidently left it in his vehicle and he was just returning it didn’t fly with the law.) She went to jail too. He is in prison now, and I was able to get his quick parole rescinded because of the law that says no sex offender can be housed in a half way house and he has no other place to go when he gets out. So for the time being we are physically safe.
I too thought about changing my name, leaving my home forever, etc. just because my need for safety at that time was so overwhelming. I have decided to return to my home, and have, but will most likely stay here and not be driven off, however, I know that if I thought I was unsafe here, I would and could leave in a matter of hours and wouldn’t look back. I will do whatever I think I have to in order to protect myself.
Free, about keeping your “guard up”–I think in time you will learn to be more “reserved” in giving out your trust, not so much “guarded”—I think the guarded might be a first step, but as you get “better at it” you will not lose your sparkle.
Giving way trust rather than having people EARN trust is one of the things I think we tend to do and that is why we became victims in the first place. When I meet someone new now, they start at a “base level” of trust/distrust. I don’t necessarily trust them but don’t DIS-trust them either. Sort of neutral I guess. But any behavior that raises a red flag sends them in to the “watch this guy” catagory.
I had a guy come by the other day, he was a rockk mason working on the house of a friend of mine’s new house. He told me who he was and said he wanted to come over and look at her horses that are pastured here on my place. We talked about horses for a while and looked at her horses, but as we walked over my place his head swiveled and swiveled and he kept looking and looking and actually appearing “nosey”—I think he must have sensed my disquiet because he said “Oh, I just like to look around” (my immediate thought was “at what you can maybe steal?”) I have a huge amount of valuable aircraft tools here. This man may be quiet honest, but he raised a red flag at his hypercurosity about all the things here on my farm, so if I were to have a robbery I would report his name to the police, and I will also keep an eye on him if he comes around again.
ANYTIME someone raises a “red flag” I will note it in the back of my mind. If later, I see that I was “over reactive” or too “hypervigilant” and something SOLID shows that what I thought was a red flag really wasn’t a red flag (not dis-ing the red flag like I did with my Ps) then I will let them move up a notch, but I will NEVER AGAIN GIVE AWAY MY COMPLETE TRUST until I have known a person well enough and long enough that I see I CAN trust them. They must EARN my trust little by little by their behavior as honest, trustworthy do-what-they-say-they-will-do people.
As I get to know someone, see them interact with others, listen to them tell about themselves, and compare what they say with what they do, get some history on their back ground, etc. I will use that information to calculate just how much I feel okay in trusting them. But no more “free rides” and once a boundary of trust is CROSSED by dishonesty, lies, etc. NO TRUST, no back peddling. They are OUT of my “circle of trust” forever. Goodbye. Have a good life, just not here.
Dear OxDrover,
I could never go back to my past….never…..I have been dealing with the legal aspect of all of this…but someday I will change my name and idenity…it’s just a matter of time for me.
As far as your situation goes….be careful…better safe than sorry! Remember the law is more on their side….Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt….they don’t catch all murderers out there! And the way things look inside the legal system…fat chance getting proper investigations….they are already overwhelmed!
I too am a psychologist and much like the rest of you have been subjected to some of these agonies, however, I am struggline with a sense of victimhood that I get from some of these postings. I also think what I am hearing is a lot of blaming and pointing fingers at the so-called sociopath, however, we are no different from them if we are driven by “our” “impulses” darlings! I guess what I am saying is that they do what they think is best for them, and we seem to be enabling them all the way by forgetting about who we are and what our wants and needs are. I think we should take more of a responsibility and come out of a lot hate messaging that we spiritually/emotionally/intellectually are sending our their way…I mean I am not trying to defend them but I guess what I am trying to do is claim back the power we think they took (or can) take away…giving into our impulses is like drug and feels good, let’s admit it, we all want to give up responsibility of who we are and what we struggle with so that we can live inside a wish…I guess that’s when sprirituality can help. It helps in the sense that we can stop creating false gods from these immortal beings, and we can stop worshipping another human being. They are the way they are because they are humans, they have blind spots, they have pains like us that they need to numb etc. so let’s stop trying to make monsters out of them. At certain points in our lives we could be acting like them and not even know it, not necessarily in a romantic situation, but at work etc. we ALL have blind spots and as krishnamurti says so nicely: “the root cause of all anger and frustration is fear”. Humans seemingly use each other becausse they are afraid, because life is tough and we are struggling human beings, the evil guy could be our son or brother doing it to someone else without our even being aware of it, so let’s stop focusing on our differences and focusing on them and instead, see why there is such shortage of ways and venues to meet eligible mates in our society, why mating and dating and finding new choices is seemingly so difficult for us. In my view we all get what we deserve, and if we are with a sociopath is becuase we deserve that experience (or our soul needs it) at that point, and given better choices we would not choose (or stay with) them! We think they are the best we can get at the time and we like to enable them and take care of them etc. becuase it fills a void inside our own self, so we too are selfish just like them in so many ways, it is just that we are matched with our negatives/positives much like the battery operates, let’s meditate a bit and see why they give us the high that they do and treat them like any bad experience in life, like a bad boss, bad friend, bad choice of vacation etc. – I particularly like to hear the comments that show how a woman can be empowered despite all hardships not what such and such jerk has done to her…sorry for the long post…