By | May 22, 2008 182 Comments

Evil – a simple definition

I love my wikipedia. I learn a lot I didn’t know and I refine my thinking by finding fault too. (The problem is knowing what is worth learning and what needs unlearning!)

Consider the wikipedia definition of evil:

Evil is generally defined as any activity which takes advantage of another person for one’s own benefit….(In contrast, good is helping others, even sometimes self-sacrificially; see saint, sainthood.)

There’s something dodgy about the form of this definition and also something very familiar about its implications. For one thing, it fits with the the lable ‘anti-social’ which refers to behaviour which has ill effects, but good intentions – “well, in his culture that behaviour is normal”. Whatever happened to ill intent, though? (For another thing, what’s the counterpart to sainthood?)

According to this view all employers are evil because they necessarily pay their employees less than they earn (‘necessarily’ because otherwise there would be no profit).

The definition attempts to define evil by contrasting it with good. So far so, um, good. But then it weighs them up wrongly, and we are left with a picture of evil that is indistinguishable from graspingness and greed. According to this view evil might have ill effects on the other, but that is not the intention; its primary intention is to gain advantage.

This is a fine example of how thinking about evil can go askew. (And, I suspect, thinking about good too.)

By re-balancing the wording of the above definition another meaning of evil becomes clear.

If good is helping another (possibly involving self-sacrifice) then it follows that evil is harming another (possibly involving self-benefit).

This is all the difference in the world. Now we can see the true intention of evil – it is to do harm. Evil is only secondarily about want, appetite, greed, jealousy; it’s true nature is malevolence, envy, cruelty, viciousness. Indeed, for evil the getting of things is happily foregone if what is primary can be achieved: power over another.

What say you?

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What is Evil?

To scratch the skin off a persons legs….

To kick a pregnant woman in the stomach…

To throw a hammer at her…..

To smash a door into her face….

To spit in her face…..

To say you are sorry when you don’t mean it…..

To bring her shopping on Christmas eve and tell her there is no money for her to buy her parents a gift…while you spend thousands of dollars on your family…

To beat her and throw her out on Christmas eve…

To take her child from her on Christmas eve….(Thank God the police made him bring her bacK)

To lie and cheat and dishonor your partner….

To say you are something you are not for the benifit of gaining something for yourself….

To steal and covet anothers property….

To pretend to be a partner when you are actually an enemy…..

To cause severe stress on another person so as to get your own way….

To make another person sick….

To implant thoughts into another persons mind so as to gain control…..

To think you are better and more intelligent than another person and to think you have the right to steal from them because of it….

To use another person sexually when you do not have the proper feelings for that person…..

To say you “love” when you do not understand “love”….




To say my way or the highway….

To say you are God……

To say I prayed to God for me to meet a nice girl like you….



Dr. Steve,

I think your definition is better. It captures the intent in an active way (i.e., helping, harming) but it seems power is still secondarily another a want, though as you point out the predominant one. But does evil have to be something you do or can it be something you are? Is there an “essence” that is missing in your definition? How about a pervert that sees a child and imagines having sex with the child. The pervert didn’t harm the child, but I think the pervert is evil, i.e., having no conscience.


Dr. Steve,

While writing Driven to Do Evil, I initially used the Wiki definition but it has since changed as the encyclopedia is frequently revised. The initial definition was “that which causes harm and fails to honor agreements.” I also purchased all the recent books on human evil written by social psychologists. FYI here are the titles and the definitions of evil given in these books:

Roy Baumeister is I think, America’s leading social psychologist. He wrote: Evil Inside human violence and cruelty. He says on page 8 “The prototypes of human evil involve actions that intentionally harm other people.”

Another book “The Social Psychology of Good and Evil” edited by Dr. Arthur G Miller says on page 22 “Evil can be defined as intentionally behaving, or causing others to act, in ways that demean, dehumanize, harm, destroy, or kill innocent people.”

The last book is by Ervin Staub, “The psychology of Good and Evil Why Children, Adults and Groups Help and Harm Others.” On page 5 he says “My definition of and concern with evil has to do with human actions that harm others. The focus is on evil actions. But individuals, as well as groups or societies, can develop characteristics that make it likely that they will repeatedly engage in such actions. Whether we do or do not want to call such individuals or groups evil, we must recognize their inclination for harm doing. We must come to understand its roots and develop knowledge required and the will to use this knowledge to prevent distructive behavior.”

Dr. Staub says it all. Thanks to Donna Andersen and this web site, everyone can recognize the inclination of sociopaths/psychopaths to inflict harm on others. Recognition is the first step at preventing the destruction they cause.


Ox Drover

I think the difference between “bad” and “evil” depends upon your spiritual beliefs.

If a thief steals from you, but not specifically to hurt you, and the hurt he inflicts on you is a by-product of his wanting what he steals, is that just “bad” or is it “evil?”

If a thief steals from you with the PURPOSE OF IMPOVERISHING YOU, and the gain he gets is meerly a by-product of his hurting you, is he “bad” or is it “evil?”

Satan tempted Eve not for his own personal gain, but to hurt her. That is obviously EVIL intent, gain by inflicting pain upon another. That would make it in my mind EVIL. Without question.

Intent to harm would in my mind be an EVIL thought or act.

Where the problem comes in, is the person who harms you as a by-product of seeking his own desires, without considering your harm that results from him acheiving his goals, is that EVIL?

How about FAILURE to help someone? The story of Lazerous and the Rich man in the Bible. The Rich Man walked by each day and saw the begger, he even threw him scraps, but he failed to have compassion on this man, failed to truly help him. In the story, his FAILURE TO DO GOOD was counted as EVIL. He didn’t kick the man, he didn’t persecute him, but he simply FAILED TO DO GOOD.

The psychopathic mind has no empathy for the victims, and in fact, in the worst cases, ENJOYS the power and control and the hurt that they are capable of inflicting. Yes, that makes it EVIL in my opinion.

The spiritual aspect of yourselves is injured by the psychopath as much as the emotional, mental and even physical aspects. Our spiritual healing is just as important as the other aspects that they injure and we must heal.

The LACK of a spiritual connection with the rest of humanity, the LACK of empathy with other humans, the ENJOYMENT of torture, humiliation, or just watching someone suffer without any compassion, as in the Rich Man in the story in the Bible who walked by the begger on his doorstep every day, he didn’t kick the begger, but he FAILED TO HAVE COMPASSION on the man, failed to CARE that his fellow man suffered while he was RICH and had more than enough to share.

In the after life he was punished for his FAILURE TO CARE, failure to have compassion and act on that compassion. He wasn’t punished for the other 100,000 beggars in his area that he didn’t have compassion on, but the ONE man he saw day after day as he entered or left his mansion, well fed, and walked by without caring about the hungry man on his door step. He was punished for not caring about that ONE man.

His lack of caring was computed to him as EVIL. Not an overt act of torture of the begger, just NOT caring.

Evil, like “shades of gray,” has many tones in its presentations from murder, rape, torture, degredation, but it boils down to lack of EMPATHY for others. Whether that lack of empathy is expressed as enjoyment of torture of another creature, or whether it is just ignoring another’s suffering and not caring.

Even Bill GAtes is not rich enough to cure all the hunger in the world, so we are not expected to “right all the wrongs of the world” by ourselves, but to do what we can with what we have and to have EMPATHY for our fellow humans. To be aware of the consequences of our behavior on others. To be oblivious to pain we cause by behaviors we know are wrong, or to enjoy the pain we cause by behaviors we know are bad, that is EVIL.

Sometimes, like the Rich Man in the Bible story, we do EVIL acts because we lack enough compassion, and have no intent to do EVIL. The psychopath, who has INTENT to do EVIL (such as Jezebel in the Bible story) KNOWS that what they do is wrong, but DON’T CARE. They completely lack the capacity for empathy. They don’t just not feed the beggar, they kick him as they go by.

Ah, Trish….you were treated most dishonorably, horribly by a human devil. I cannot even fathom the extent of abuse you have suffered at the hands of pure evil. But I can read your accounts and I can try to place myself in your painful situation as to empathisize. Even then, that can’t do the justice you deserve because you lived it, not I.

The worst I had to contend with, was my ex-husband would hold me down after verbally abusing me in fear I would violently retaliate. And a sociopath who stalked me for 2 years slapped me in the face..once. I ran to the kitchen and grabbed a knife as I was in a state of total and complete fury at his action. I WAS going to kill him. No doubt in my mind. He ran down the stairs and out of my sight before I could reach him. Which was a good thing, because he wasn’t worth going to prison for. And I don’t think I could have lived with myself knowing I’d killed someone even if it was in self-defense.

Yeah, I had my own rage to deal with and I still deal with it continually. I think after having lived with suppressed emotions during my childhood, adolescence, then teenage years I would go on the attack whenever I would feel threatened. It’s like I get tunnel vision, see red, when someone deliberately provokes me, hurts me, and I react with fury, violence. I have a ways to go before I can learn to calmly, rationally control my anger to be a benefit and not a hindrance.

As for the subject of evil, after reading many books regarding psychopathic personalities, I spoke to my mother about my bio-father’s behavior. She confirmed my beliefs that he was what he was by supplying me with many instances of his abherrant behavior. She also told me that he disgusted her tremendously, and that he seemed to have this “aura of evil” surrounding him and it repulsed her. She did eventually divorce him (when I was 10), gathering her strength to her and leaving him. Best day of my life. I remember moving into our new townhouse with my mom and 2 sisters and feeling an absolute sense of relief that he was out of our lives for good. Now the healing and recovery can start and we could have fun times with our mom. He did TRY to stalk her for a while but she purchased herself a pistol for protection and warned him that she would use it. Being the true coward he was, he ran with his tail between his legs.

You know, you would think since I lived with an evil father in my childhood, that I should be able to automatically recognize evil when it steps in my path. But, no, I have been fooled many times. Thankfully, I haven’t been exposed to aggressively, violent abusers and I’m now able to write this comment. I am more than relieved that the lovely ladies (& James) of LoveFraud have survived their nightmares and are also able to share their pain, suffering, insight, wisdom, healing with me.

Thank you…:)


EVIL IMHO is trying to get another person, (through lies/deceit, rage outbursts, manipulation, force, etc) to DO or BELIEVE something, that may be harmful to themselves, that they otherwise would not do (had they not been lied to, raged at, manipualted or forced).

Aquinas on Evil.

Evil in the world comes from the revolt of the angels. The Devil made one choice against God, sociopaths make repeated choices against good. I am over simplifying this and will blog on it on my own blog soon.

I just read an excellent article Prof. Ramsay on Demons and psychopaths- he’s a philospher, theologian and had it right to a point. He failed when he stated psychos are broken, unable to make a good choices, choices that are good for others just not themselves, not exploitive etc. I am paraphrasing his writing badly, he’s an excellent scholar but missed, or couldn’t “get” some people make diabolical choices repeatedly, unrepetinently and on purpose for power, gratification.

Psychopaths are walking dead, they are weighted with sin. I think it is difficult to accept, because we cannot imagine a fiat against good forever.
They are damning themselves, that is what is profoundly disturbing. Shunning the beauty of a child, a summer day, a poem, love—for having one up on us fools, to play God.


Whenever I deal with the subject “sociopath” I try not to view them as “evil”. Whenever I “view” evil, I make a personal judgment. Something I believe I should do very slowly and methodically.


Well we all have “evil” thoughts and feeling from time to time. But most of us will never carry them out. We weigh the “price” of our actions and the consequents of those deeds. But still we have these thoughts..

If we all have “evil” thoughts and feeling then we must conclude that we are all evil. If we take away the consequent (guilt, legal, moral) factors, my question is how many of us would in fact hurt those (sociopaths) that hurt us? In all honesty I know I would. But here is were I part company with my sociopath counterpart. I can’t harm or allow harm to be done to another without “paying” the price of my evil deed. Still I do have “evil” thoughts and still evil is in me. God has given me a choice, and all I can do is pray I make the right one.

Let’s take John Wayne Gacy for a subject:

Before he was caught and arrested the police believe him to be a crazed person. That someone would kill someone that lived in his own town? Someone that they felt should be able to find easy. But it wasn’t easy to find the killer. And when they did him, what did they find?

“Gacy spent part of his leisure time hosting elaborate street parties for friends and neighbors, dressing as a clown, and entertaining children at local hospitals. He also immersed himself in organizations such as the Jaycees and the local Democratic party. As a Democratic precinct captain he once had his picture taken with First Lady Rosalyn Carter.”

John’s “evil” first started as a thought, then grew to actions and deeds…

Many people were surprise when they saw this little man. And then understood how easy (because of his demeanor) it was for Gacy to trick so many young men into his “killing field”.

Many people saw no “evil” in John, but we all know now that it was there! And we know now that it was “pure” evil.

So when we look at “evil” even in the face, we may not see it! It is very good at hiding it’s self from us. So I am slow to say there it is! “Evil” in it’s true form. And then still not understands it’s many “tricks”. Only with proof in hand will I say “there! That person is evil by actions and deeds”.

Sad but we must wait until “evil” completes it deeds before we see it and still many of us will never understand it. I guess this is the price we pay for knowing “evil and good”. The price that Adam and Eve paid for eating that forbidden fruit.

Ox Drover


I agree with your thoughts on the “evil” in us all…none of us are perfect or “without sin.”

Evil in people does start with a thought and grow into an action. I do not believe that people are “born evil” without any chance of making a choice for “good or evil”—I think if we have a mind that comprehend the “knowledge of good and evil” then we HAVE A CHOICE. It may, because of their brain chemistry, be EASIER for the P to choose evil, the same way a person with the gene(s) for alcoholism, it is “easier” to choose to drink to excess, than for a person who doesn’t have that gene(s). It doesn’t mean we don’t have a choice. Just that one choice may be easier than another.

Once that series of choices are made and the DESIRE to continue to do evil is ingrained in the Psychopath, they have NO desire to CHANGE. They are fine, the world is out of step. They are “entitled.”

We are told not to “judge” another’s heart in the Bible, however, we are also told to examine a tree by seeing its “fruit.”

We can’t judge the content of someone’s heart without being able to INSPECT THEIR FRUIT. But, if the fruit is consistently bad, the tree is also bad for producing nothing but rotten fruit.

Anger at their behavior is justified and natural and normal. We should not, however, DWELL on that anger and feed that anger until it becomes “wrath”–the desire to hurt them back. That only hurts us. It is something I am working on, that bitter anger that wants to strike out at anyone that unjustly hurts another—human or animal. (we are not talking self defense here, but retribution). I have no problem with self defense as a reasonable thing–whatever it takes—but retribution or revenge is another thing entirely.

Seeking justice (letting the law punish them) is not in my mind revenge or retribution.

The Blessed Virgin Mary was one, perhaps some Saints- but I’d say the vast majority of people, even the canonized, at some point in time have had evil thoughts- those include: sloth, lust, revenge, greed, envy etc.

Evil is multifaceted.



You wrote . .

– Well we all have “evil” thoughts and feeling from time to time.-

I do not agree with that. I think there are some people who never, ever have evil thoughts and feelings.


Based on my “simplified” definition of evil below, I think there are more people that don’t ever have evil thoughts or feelings.

EVIL IMHO is trying to get another person, (through lies/deceit, rage outbursts, manipulation, force, etc) to DO or BELIEVE something, that may be harmful to themselves, that they otherwise would not do (had they not been lied to, raged at, manipualted or forced).



“It was horrendous when I wrote a list too, but writing it down is important and it gave me more knowledge and truth about myself and it is validating. When we write it, we start dealing with it.”

Yes I agree and had to start a personal journal just to deal with all the issues going on (and this was only after she left, if I wrote down all the BS, it would fill a couple of books)

Strange, but please let me ask all you members a question. You see I always had a love for poetry and even wrote one poem that took me a couple of months. But something strange happen after she (ex-P) left me. I soon started writing poetry but this time it just came pouring out of me. I can’t tell you just how many I wrote.. In fact if you don’t mind, I would love to share one with you all…

Narcissist for a Day
By James X. XXXXXXX (not sure if we are allow to give our real names here?)

I woke one day, in a terrible way

Short with my children and not caring for their needs in anyway
Not talking with my wife, oh what a pig she is
She is always that way
Not seeing how special I am in everyway

Getting ready for work, thinking how they don’t see me, oh the
wonderful me! Why, should I care about them in any oh way!

Going to work, I saw people who are fools
Just like tools that I can use and use
Not seeing how special and great I am and will always be
These objects are just for my fun and wants for whatever I need.

At work, I talked with Andy, oh what a fool he can be
taken my position that was promise to me
Why can’t Andy see, that it was meant for me
I’m so special, not like Andy can ever be

I came home oh, what a horrible day for me
Why can’t they see the wonderful me
I cussed at my children, so selfish they can be
My wife I told her I don’t need you and don’t
want you with me
You are just a pig, not special like me

The room got dark and numbest surrounded me
No feeling of love or caring for me
No one would talk or look at me
Oh, dear God what is happening to me

Awoke in a sweat wanting someone to hold me
Oh, what a horrible dream that happen to me
A Nightmare no, no not a dream
A Nightmare it had to be

How horrible it must be
To be a narcissist being in everyway and everyday
Oh no that’s not for me in any oh way
No, I love my children who are so
Special to me in their own special way
My wife so sweet and so kind to my children and me
Loving and special to us in all and each one in their own way
Oh no dear Lord, that’s not for me in any oh way
A narcissist I can never be not even for a day

This one is my favorite…


“Strange, but please let me ask all you members a question.

Oh the question is.. Did anything like this happen to another member, like getting a “life” change experience? Like I said, I love poetry and always wanted to write it, but this was so strange how it came pouring out of me.. It’s like my love for poetry blossomed! With a passion so deep to my soul and heart!

I now have a passion for writing poetry I never had before?

Ox Drover


“life changing event” or whatever you want to call it—yes! YES! I started to see God, the Bible, spirituality, and love, forgiveness, etc. in a NEW WAY. I’d looked right at it, but I let the FOG obscure my spirituality, my self love, my confidence in myself. Once the dealing with the Ps and the P’s-by-proxy (enablers) was OUT OF MY LIFE, I started to bloom like a flower inside. I started to be HAPPY, not always questioning myself. Still, I want to know, I want to grow, I want to learn ALL ABOUT ME—I never knew me before, only the shadow of me projected by the evil light of the Ps on the wall.

I write poetry, but usually only when I am down or depressed, but now my soul sings. Sure–I’m not perfect, I harbor too much wrath (Anger+) sometimes, at injustices I can’t fix and it isn’t my responsibility to fix them, I ALLOW the frustration of not being able to fix them make me anGRY. I can stop ALLOWING that, and I intend to work on that aspect of myself. WOW! How empowering to know that I can have a “fault” and correct it—don’t have to fix it for someone else’s pleasure, but MINE. Don’t have to dance to someone else’s music, I can MAKE MY OWN MUSIC. FAST OR sloooow, as I WISH. Why should I worry about my music vs your music? Your music doesn’t hurt me and my music is not yours to dictate–we can each have our own music and yet we can both dance…we don’t have to dance the same tune, or the same steps in order to dance.

I can see God my way, and you can see God your way, and we can still dance. Your life is yours, mine is mine. We can dance together or we can dance separately. We can move closer or move away and we can still dance.

We can view the same sunset and I say it’s red, you say it’s purple, but we can both enjoy the sunset.

I can embrace you witout allowing you to own me, I can love you without smothering you. I can let you be you, and you let me be me. We can be inter-dependent without being dependent. I can be me, even if you don’t cherish me. My world won’t end, because I am my own world. You are your own world, your world won’t end if I don’t cherish you. I can be complete in myself. You can be complete in yourself.

I don’t know if any of that philosophy means anything to anyone except me, but at 61 years old I have been BORN into acceptence, acceptence of myself…imperfect, but worthy–able to change, but not for anyone else, just for myself.

I’ve lived my life too much for others, and not enough for myself…I’ve “sacrificed” without realizing what I was doing consciously for others, others who didn’t appreciate my worth, my sacrifices for them, who couldn’t give back, who wouldn’t give back, until I was EMPTY, without anything for them or for myself. Now I am FILLING UP, with plenty for me, and accumulating a surplus to share with others….but not starving myself either. If you are EMPTY, you cannot give, you cannot survive. We live by having enough, and sharing, but not giving to others, neglecting ourselves, and starving ourselves so we have nothing to give.


“Your poetry is beautiful. Be careful though where you put it, especially on the net, it would be awful for someone to plagiarise it” you hear of it a lot and my writing teacher told our class this, just last term.”

Yes you are right and I have been worry about that myself. Still I can write more LOL!

My poetry isn’t so much on this subject anymore i.e. P’s and sociopaths , it more on love, understanding and compassion.. Love to share more but you are right, we need to be careful with our writing..


Man, did you say a mouth full about God, the bible and my own spirituality. My father (in heaven) has always had his hand on me. But after.. What a force and strength he has been for me! What would I do without him???


Ox Drover

“I’ve lived my life too much for others, and not enough for myself”I’ve “sacrificed” without realizing what I was doing consciously for others, others who didn’t appreciate my worth, my sacrifices for them, who couldn’t give back, who wouldn’t give back, until I was EMPTY, without anything for them or for myself. Now I am FILLING UP, with plenty for me, and accumulating a surplus to share with others”.but not starving myself either. If you are EMPTY, you cannot give, you cannot survive. We live by having enough, and sharing, but not giving to others, neglecting ourselves, and starving ourselves so we have nothing to give.”

Good for you! It’s all right to love yourself! Give to yourself! And know it’s alright! I am learning to do this for myself as well! Good for YOU!



Great News about your book. And yes! I will buy it as well..


Jane and Free,

Thank you again….I posted those pains, not for sympathy….I know what I experienced was serious suffering….but there are people out there who are suffering similarly or even worse….and I believe in being open about my suffering for others who suffer….and that list is not even 1/2 of it!

I’m healing every day….and I have learned that if you ignore the abuse and pain….it seems to knock on your door more often….it is true that when you deal with a situation immediately…it goes away! This is one of the secrets in life….but you have to build the strenght to deal with it right away….did you ever notice the obsessive sales man/woman who knocks on your door every day….then he/she finds their way to your back door and than even in your window….and your hiding away on the inside…He/she can’t wait to get to you because they know you are weak and you are a sale to them and they will wear you down….so the best thing to do is to say “NO” firmly. Have answers ready for them….Like I never buy from door to door….never! and they will come back at you and you say….never….never…good-bye….and if you are one of those who think that is rude….think about how rude they are being…..

I guess what I am getting at for us is to learn to build strength…..learn where your weaknesses are and change your thoughts about them….most of us have weaknesses that were passed on to us from our families….

For myself….noone in my family had ever been divorced….let alone having a child out of wedlock! I wasn’t married to my X-father of my daughter….I planned on marrying him after the baby was born…but that didn’t work out because of all the abuse….but I stayed thru many months of severe abuse….because of my belief in “Family”….work it all out….and take it….

I don’t know how many of you had parents that hit you when you were young…that was normal to me…Now I leave! But in hind site that was when the damage was done!

And I certainly understand being stuck….no money…. no job….no self esteem.

To anyone out there who is stuck…empower yourself…..don’t tell your abuser what you are up to…but plan your escape…especially if you are in fear of your life….go to out counseling with a battered womans shelter like I did…..You can get out safe and alive! You have to choose to leave for good! You have to gain your own strength……you can do it! You will finally be living when you do…

In the begining you won’t feel like yourself because yourself is weak…. your true self has not been found yet….but in time you will find it. Just believe in the coming transformation! There is no life in the clutches of an abuser! Remember that!


I heard a line in a movie once. “Inherently, I am told there is good in all, experience tells me otherwise.” I was at such a vulnerable time in my life I accepted unacceptable behavior as acceptable. I couldn’t say which end was up not such a great place to be in when you are starting a relationship.

Ox Drover

Trish and Iradessa, both of you have wonderful pooints.

Iradessa—that is a GREAT line, and sooooo true. “Inherently, I am told there is good in all, experience tells me otherwise” we should LISTEN TO THAT.


I was so helpless that I would listen to anything. I would try anything to end this pain and get my life back. And it is getting better everyday. Thank GOD. I remember walking around the house saying ok he is no good, you need to have NO CONTACT and I could get with that but I was like brain dead I didn’t know what to do and my son had HeMan on tv and I heard him say “we need to go where we can be of the most use” so I went to help out a friend and the moment passes. I was on my way to set forth to heal and I didn’t even know it. (I am still healing and I am still changing)


I don’t believe that an evil thought “in relatiation” is necessarily evil. Just as “self defense” is not considered evil. I think in many cases having eveil thoughts “in retaliation” to an evil deed, or even ratliating, is not evil . . it is self defense.


I liked what you said don’t tell them what you are up too. I never tell my xhusband or my x boyfriend anything aobut my life. My xhusband does not know where I work, what I do when I am not with the kids. I deliberatly say nothing. I do not need to gloat and say that I am going sailing or anything. My friend says with him anything you say can and will be held against you. Say nothing. And since I am recovering and that requires honesty I have to tell you it was hard, I wanted to gloat and that is an avenue back into my life and I gave him the map with my big mouth. I didn’t think I could control anything and I would be the perpetual victim. I do have the power to control my mouth. Tell them nothing. Reaffirm the fulfilling relationships. Even if they are just here it is a start.

Ox Drover


Yesp, KEEP YOUR BIG MOUTH SHUT! If I had done that, I would have been a LOT better off. In my frustration and anger at my P-son, I gave him the INFORMATION HE NEEDED to send in his Trojan Horse P to “invade” my family. If he had not known what he did about my business, he would never have succeeded.

Giving the Ps “information” about ANYTHING to do with you is like the “Allies dropping ammunition to the Germans” in WWII, it will ALWAYS fly back to hit you in the butt when you least expect it. INFORMATION and KNOWLEDGE=POWER. If we give them information we give them POWER.

ANY information about our thoughts, our plans, our movements can be turned against us in ways we can’t even fathom. They will seek information from our kids, from our neighbors, from our friends who don’t realize what they are telling them is “ammunition” against us. They will snoop into our documents if they can, etc. It is really “amazing” what they can do with just things that can be had as “public information” too. We need to guard our idenity information so that they cannot use that as well. SS#, etc. Even our mail. I have a PO box so no one can get my mail but me. I shread documents that might go into the trash that someone could nab and get information, or burn it. (I know some people can’t burn things where they live) I’m not “paranoid,” I’m CAUTIOUS, because I know that they WILL do this kind of thing, they DID this kind of thing.

I consulted with a private investigator to get information on them, and believe me it is POWER, and also consulted on how I could “essentially” legally disappear so they could not trace me with the information they DO have. Since I am retired and don’t have to worry about working, it would be easier for me than for most people and, I don’t have a kid in tow either.

In this day of “idenity theft” by cons that don’t even know you, and the havoc they can play with your credit and your life, it isn’t a bad idea to be cautious anyway, but especially if you have a P in your life that will STALK you…but in any case, it is a good idea to be cautious with information of any kind.


So very true. Information is power, power they use against us and it’s sad we have to look over our shoulders and watch our backs. You are so very wise. You are like the wizard of oz. (That was said in a good context)


Thank you. My mouth is slammed shut there, however, I am not silenced there are safe places for me to talk and feel safe. This is one of them. I never would have dreamed this nightmare I care about myself too much this is someone else’s devastation now……all I can do is pray and help the person who wants my help.

Ox Drover

Rperk, thank you for that compliment, but any “wisdom” I have is hard bought. LOL I’m afraid I am the poster child for “too soon old, too late smart!” ha ha

Yes, Iradessa, WHERE and to WHOM you shoot off your mouth is very important. I’m afraid I was VERY promiscuous with my mouth in very inappropriate places and to inappropriate people.

I poured my heart out in letters to my P-Son—the MOST INAPPROPRIATE PERSON, trying to get him to SEE how he was hurting us and hurting himself–and he turned that against me 110%–of all the people I shouldn’t have been trying to make see how he was hurting me, HECK, HE WAS TRYING TO HURT ME, and all I did was show him the bullet wounds and give him medical reports on where to shoot next! ha ha His aim kept getting better and I couldn’t figure out why! DUH! NOW I know, though. MY BIG MOUTH.

Forewarned is forearmed, so when we let them know what we plan to do next, they are TWO jumps ahead of us instead of just one. If we keep our own counsel and keep our mouths shut, keep our cards “close to our chests” and don’t play by THEIR rules, but by our rules, keeping in mind that we don’t OWE THEM SQUAT, then we hve a much better chance of coming out of it less injured.

Unfortunately, with the “crazymaking” that happens, sometimes we are not on our best form. I know I sure wasn’t. I’m just glad I got out alive.


“Forewarned is forearmed, so when we let them know what we plan to do next, they are TWO jumps ahead of us instead of just one. If we keep our own counsel and keep our mouths shut, keep our cards “close to our chests” and don’t play by THEIR rules, but by our rules, keeping in mind that we don’t OWE THEM SQUAT, then we hve a much better chance of coming out of it less injured.”

So frikking true. Wow…I needed to read this today. Thank You!! I’m one of those types who wishes to express my sincerest apologies, wrongdoing to whomever I think I hurt. First and foremost for me, as it helps me spiritually. But..(and here’s the big BUT), when you try this with a person who is personality disordered, it totally backfires. For me it ALWAYS did. I got me loads and loads, and bucketsfuls of pseudo-moral superiority, and sickening self-righteousness!! What!!? Never once with the screwed up men in my life did I ever receive a sincere apology for verbal abuse, inappropriate behavior, just flat out cruelty, hatefullness. What a waste of time it is wishing, hoping that underneath the exterior a true heart beats.

Like you said, focus your caring, loving, nurturing nature on those who truly deserve and appreciate it. And, that’s what I do!! 🙂

Ox Drover

DEar Jane,

Yes, we try to be “fair” and “nice” but when you try to behave that way with them, you only get blindsided…it isn’t possible to treat them fairly, they keep changing the rules. The only thing we can do is to protect ourselves and not give them the ammunition to shoot at us with. Information about our feelings, our thoughts and our intentions is just that ammunition.

My “rule” now is NO INFORMATION to the Ps. Let THEM wonder what I am up to, why do I “owe” it to them to let them know what I intend to do…they don’t respect boundaries so if you set one with the consequences, “You do this, then I will do that” THEY are forewarned, so now I just don’t tell them anything. I do my best to keep others that MIGHT TELL THEM anything from knowing anything either.

It stilll amazes me that I gave away so much critical information to the Ps—it was only when I was in dire straights that I started being “sneaky”—and it paid off handsomely, they didn’t even know I was gone until I was safely away with my imporatant papers, and other things and my dogs—they had no idea when I left or where I went I was just GONE. Disappeared like the FOG I was in before.

Sure it is human nature to want to say “I”m divorcing you you sob” but it is better and smarter to just DO it and not let them even know you are leaving before you have your ducks in a row.

MY X-DIL-P pretended to be wanting to “reconcile” with my son C after he caught her and the Trojan Horse P having an affiar..she had him snookered for almost a week while she got money together, rented a storage unitl etc. and made her plans–bought a gun for her BF the TH-P and figured how they would make my son’s murder look like “self defense”–thank God it didn’t workk out that way, and she and the TH-P went to jail, but my son didn’t play his cards close to his chest, he didn’t realize he was dealing with a couple of Ps.

Any person who does something and REFUSES to give a SINCERE apology (and 99.9% of the time your gut tells you which is sincere and which not) is out of my life…and any liar, with or without an apology is OUT. I have raised the bar for the moral quality of the people I let even remotely close to me. Not because I am so “holy” and “without sin” but because being around people who lie even once to me or deceive others isn’t a “paying proposition” in the long run.



You wrote:
-I have raised the bar for the moral quality of the people I let even remotely close to me.-

Good for you . . I am at the same place. There are two wise sayings that I try to live by. They are:


Dear Free,

I have forgiven my mother a long time ago…I guess I choose not to engage in my family anymore because it is too disfunctional for me. My mother is in her 80’s and feeble….she is the matriarch of the entire family…including cousins…etc. She established this role a long time ago…it has to do with perceived power…my mother plays the game of secrecy between each one of us and herself….I still don’t understand that…

What I miss and may never have, because I never had it is my mothers love….I am talking “motherly love”. And she probably never had it either….I know I gave it to my daughter….but not completely….because when my daughter wanted to be hugged….I would hug her but only for a little while….It was uncomfortable for me!

I remember when I was a child faking sleep so one of my parents would come and pick me up and put me to bed….It was the closest thing I got to a hug….and it was always my father. And we never used the words “I love you” until my one brother-in-law came into the family and started openly using them.

I look at my life as a learning experience….I know what is good and feels right….and I think most of us do. I just feel if I want to be healthy I need to stay away from disfunction when I see it….even if it is my family…maybe I won’t have very many people in life…but there are not very many people worth being around if they choose the disfunctions of their past.

Ox Drover

Dear Trish,

Very eloquently put post…”I need to stay away from dysfunction when I see it…even if it is my family..maybe I won’t have very many people in life…but there are not very many people worth being around if they choose the dysfunctions of their past.”

My mother also chose the dysfunctional behavior from her family back ground…the enabling of the family sociopaths. It is sad, because she became a psychopath-by-proxy, assuming the role of punishing me because I didn’t allow the sociopaths to rule the family.

Sometimes we get wisdom from some odd things. I read the story in the Book of Samuel in the Bible about King David and his enabling of his psychopathic son Absalom. Even when his son went to war to try to kill him, King DAvid’s last words to his generals who went to fight Absalom were “Deal gently with the young man.” When Absalom was killed, DAvid loudly grieved and wailed for his son’s death–the very son that had been responsible for the deaths of over 40,000 men. David’s generals came to him and said “I perceive that if the young man had lived and all of us had died, you would have been well pleased.”

King David realized that what the general said was TRUE. David also realized that he was wrong in feeling that way. David repented and got up, washed his face, and thanked the people who had sacrificed so much for his kingdom.

I realized at one point that my own mother would have been “well pleased” if my P-son had gotten out of prison before she died, even if it meant that I had died at his hand. She isn’t a psychopath, she has a conscience, she has just twisted it, she has become such a toxic enabler that she can’t see out of the P-FOG my P-son puts off. She actually believes it is her duty to punish me for “persecuting” him, wanting him to stay in prison.

The night I told her the story of King david and his son, I actually did hate her that night…but now, I just pity her. Unlike King David, she refuses to see the truth and to repent. She can’t face the admission of her own dysfunctional life. It would overwhelm her, but I can’t heal as long as I have a relationship with her on a day to day basis. I do speak to her for BUSINESS reasons only, but confine our conversations to that and that alone. I too wanted a mother’s love, I spent my life trying to please her, but I no longer feel the need to please her or try to twist reality to fit her dysfunction and make it seem “real”–I no longer hate her, I pity her. Her own dysfunction has drive away the ones who did love her, and all she is left with is the P-grandson still trying to get her to send money. She is so alone. I am her only child. My children are her only grandchildren, and neither of my remaining children have anything to do with her unless it is just “business.” They also feel pity for her, but no longer want to be around her. How sad it is that these “family roles” we are assigned continue generation after generation. But in our family–they STOP HERE, STOP NOW. I will no longer participate in my assigned role as “family enabler” for the Ps. When she dies, that role dies.

My sons and I do say “I love you” frequently and we hug a LOT…each other and our friends. I am proud that my two sons are GOOD men. NOt perfect, but caring and loving and trustworthy. They too have learned from this P-experience.


Dear OxDrover,

I don’t know all the answers…I just know what I can’t go back to….because I can not take it anymore. If everyone would just look at themselves and make the changes….according to the 7 deadly sins….we would all have a much better life. Lust…glutony…greed….sloth….wrath….envy….pride.

Ox Drover

Trish, I sure don’t know “all the answers” either, I’m actually still formulating the QUESTIONS. LOL But you are so right, the “seven deadly sins” covers 99.9999999% of all the evil in the world.

“Now we can see the true intention of evil – it is to do harm”

If everyone in the world understood that and acted accordingly, evil people would be able to do far less harm. Evil people understand instinctively that good people don’t realize that they often do evil deeds just for the sheer joy of it, and will go to mindbogging lengths to enhance that joy by continually searching out new evil to perpetrate. When we see someone spreading vicious lies about a person, launching constant personal attacks, etc, we SHOULD leap forward and say “Stop that, you evil person!!” but in fact we usually think that the victim somehow deserves it, and/or tell ourselves it’s no big deal or not our business… which is just what the evil ones count on, so that they can get away with it unscathed.

When YOU see evil in action, do you leap to the victim’s defense, or do you add to their misery by being an audience to their suffering and/or encourage the evildoer by giving THEM an audience?

I was reading the Gospel last night and the Lord’s “Sermon on the Mount” in particular.

“Blessed are the gentle (meak,humble) for they shall inherit the earth”

That’s us! All of us on this website, in the world who are defiant, repulsed, sickened by evil are the blessed. Who yearn to be free from the tyranny of evil that pervades our lives. What IS the purpose of evil? The ONLY purpose for evil is to pervert, twist, and ultimately TRY to destroy that which is good, honest, true, real, and righteous. Why does evil wish to end that which is good? Because of fear. Evil fears the righteous with a seething hatred, with an all consuming drive to annihilate that which it can never, ever be. Evil will use every skill, tool, trick of the trade to further it’s dastardly pursuit.

This is our test. We are the blessed gentle so we will ALWAYS be targets of evil. Whether it be sneaky, insidiously deceptive or outright vicious, callous, cruel, evil will try to work it’s purpose. I believe OUR purpose on this big, beautiful planet is to never, ever, bow to, bend to evil in all it’s various disguises designed to fool us, hurt us, destroy us. Yes, we will stumble, fall down, cry out in pain from the evil perpetrated against us, but if we’re still breathing, our heart’s still fiercely beating, our eyes WIDE open, we can make the choice, the decision, to stand up, brush all the grit, dirt, filth from our psyches and KEEP ON MOVING FORWARD with our heads up high, our shoulders straight, our hearts fairly bursting with radiant light, our minds sharp and alert, and living life with the All Loving, All caring Holy Spirit firmly planted in our souls….Evil can take a short walk off a long pier for all I give a damn!

Ox Drover

Eternal Student—good points.

Free, yes it does take courage. Years ago a woman was killed in plain view of I think it was 24 or 34 people on the streets of Chicago (I think it was) her Name was Kitty Genovese (spelling may be incorrect) and all these people watched her stabbed to death over quite a large part of an hour, and they shut their windows so they would not hear her scream for help. NOT ONE person came to her aid.

After this made the national news, there were soeme sociological and psychological studies made about WHY all thes epeople did NOTHING to help the woman, not even call the cops.

Apparently the “results” of the study that if you were walking down the street and a crazy knife weilding person attacked you and there were 1 or 2 guys there they would help you or at least call the police, but if there were 20 each one would wait for the other one to make the first move so no one would actually DO anything. Interesting points.

“Remember, when SECONDS count, the cops are only MINUTES AWAY.”

In my state and in many other states “concealed carry permits” are issued to citizens who have A) passed an FBI back ground check and B) passed a shooting and legal course so that they are able to legally carry concealed fire arms as they move about their daily routines (with some places that are off limits, like post office and other federal buildsings) There are those that are totally AGAINST this, and against fire arms of any kind, but the men and women who have “carry permits” are not crazed “cowboys” out to shoot someone, but once in a while they save some folks and I think if more criminals thought about there being more and more people who are armed it might make a difference.

I carry, and over the 40+ years I have carried a pistol, it has “saved my bacon” three times, once when some tried to rob the store I worked at at night during college, once broken down at night on an interstate in the days before cell phones, and the third time camping in the wilderness with my two young sons in Wyoming. All three times were HUMAN predators, not animals. I have never shot at anyone, and only twice did I point it at someone, but I WAS prepared to shoot if the threat of the weapon had not been enough.

I’m not sure if I would qualify as “humble” in the definitions of the Bible, Jane, but I am NOT evil, I am not perfect, but not EVIL because I do try to do what is right and what is good. The person who GIVES THEMSELVES over to EVIL, whose heart harbors and enjoys EVIL, the psychopath, I think is responsible for 99.999999% of the trouble in this world. Even statistics do back some of this up in that 70% of the violent crimes are perpertrated by the 20% of the law breakers who are psychopaths. Not all psychopaths are criminals of course, but with a 50% divorce rate in this country now for first marriages, and 75% for second marriages—I wonder just how many of them are by people who are either “diagnosable” psychopaths or are VERY CLose to “qualifying”.

I think it was Dr. Leedom who said that in England in the “projects” that 25% of the children born there are sired by diagnosed psycopaths. (head shaking here)

I am all for helping others who have been or are victims and avoiding the p’s themselves, but sometimes it is daunting to realize that psychopaths are NOT a “rare commodity” in our society—they probably have never been a “rare commodity” in human history, maybe WE are the “odd people out” in that we do have a conscience and therefore are “less fit for survival” than the psychopaths….but, at the same time, I would not wish BEING a psychopath on anyone, it must be a miserable internal existence without empathy and love. I do suspect sometimes that they know we have “someting” that they don’t have and would like to have–but like the child born blind, aren’t sure what it is that we SEE and have.

I am sure the “definition” of evil will be debated long after this generation is gone, and I am sure that there will be more psychopaths in this world as well, and good people also. “I just wanna be one of the good guys!”


OxDrover says:

{{If a thief steals from you, but not specifically to hurt you, and the hurt he inflicts on you is a by-product of his wanting what he steals, is that just “bad” or is it “evil?”

If a thief steals from you with the PURPOSE OF IMPOVERISHING YOU, and the gain he gets is meerly a by-product of his hurting you, is he “bad” or is it “evil?”}}

Very good point.

As you say, what is good and evil may depend on your religious beliefs. But then, we aren’t really talking about good and evil, but rather about “morality.”

When talking about morality, the idea of good and evil can be very different for different people with different beliefs. That means it is subjective rather than objective. And here I use these terms in the sense that objective means “the way the Universe with its comprehensive perspective views itself” as opposed to the way an individual or even a group of individuals may view events in the universe.

It could even be said that no one ever does anything deliberately in the interests of evil, for the sake of evil, per se, but rather that everyone acts in the interests of good, _as he understands it_! But everybody understands it in a different way! As a result of these subjective views of evil, human beings inflict all kinds of suffering on others in the interests of what they consider to be good.

George Bush, killing a million Iraqis in order to “force democracy” on them is one example. Israel occupying Palestine based on the claims of their religion, and committing genocide on the Palestinian people is another example.

What we see, then, is that there is no morality common to all. We can’t even say that there is a comprehensive idea of so-called Christian morality. There are so many different interpretations of “Christian morality,” and we also can remember that some of the greatest crimes in history have been committed in the name of Christianity.

One set of moral precepts can – and often does – contradict another set. What is moral in New York may not be moral in Beijing. What is moral in Helsinki, may not be moral in Ethiopia. What is moral in Judaism, is not necessarily moral in Christianity or Islam.

Morality is more directly related to rules and laws, black and white interpretations of what is good and bad. Two very moral men from different cultures may consider each other very immoral. More than that, the more ‘moral’ a person is, the more ‘immoral’ will he think other moral people from different cultures!

The problem, as Gurdjieff enunciated it, is that we do not need morality, we need conscience since conscience is the interior connection between all normal humans (those who are not pathological).

The idea of conscience is based on a different interpretation of reality, one that does not necessarily include hard and fast rules that apply in every situation such as our culture espouses under the influence of Judao-Christian influences. Conscience is reflected in a much older system that existed among many tribes of Celts before it was overcome and destroyed by the imposition of Judao-Christianity (by force).

The destruction of Celtic culture was so complete that we know very little about their religion – we have to infer principles from rags and tatters of evidence. We do know that they celebrated their “rites” in forests and by lakes without erecting any covered temples or statues of divinities. Tacitus tells us:

{{They do not think it in keeping with the divine majesty to confine gods within walls, or to portray them in the likeness of any human countenance. Their holy places are woods and groves and they apply the names of deities to that hidden presence which is seen only by the eyes of reverence. }}

Plato had doubts about the Greek origins of Homer’s work because not only do the physical descriptions in his poems not correspond to the Greek world, but also the Homeric philosophy is very different from the mainstream Greek philosophy we know about today. The latter is based on the dualism of two opposing elements, thesis/antithesis, good/evil, life/death, body/soul, etc. This is also the perspective of the related Judao-Christian system – at least as it has come to be known in our modern world. It could be said that the early Jesus people were more in tune with the ancient Celtic system as is evidenced by their God of Mercy. But that’s before the gospel writers came on the scene and created myths. (See Burton Mack’s “A Myth of Innocence” for detailed analysis.)

Since Plato’s times, many have sought to derive “synthesis” from opposing elements, with little success.

According to Homer, the philosophy of the ancient world was that there was a third element that linked the opposing elements. Between the body and the soul, there is the spirit. Between life and death there is the transformation that is possible to the individual, between father and mother there is the child who takes the characteristics of both father and mother, and between good and evil there is the SPECIFIC SITUATION that determines which is which and what ought to be done.

In other words, there are three simultaneous determinants in any situation that make it impossible to say that any list of things is “good” or “evil” intrinsically, and that the true determinant is the situation.

In any event, the symbol of this philosophy is the triskele, representing three waves joined together.

The simultaneous existence of the third element does not mean that the notion of “good” and “evil” did not exist or was not reflected in the Celtic law. What was clear was that it was understood that nothing could be “cut and dried” in terms of law, that each situation was unique and the circumstances had to be carefully weighed.

And so, considering the Third Force, the specific situation, let me take a leap and propose that, at whatever level it occurs, any effort undertaken to use other people for some, even the best of aims (according to the view of the individual initiating the action), without their knowledge and understanding, either by producing in them faith and infatuation or by acting upon them through fear, is evil. It seems to me that depriving people of knowledge, and inducing their compliance or participation to the aims of someone with a subjective morality, under conditions of what can even be called brainwashing, is what is the essence of evil. To deceive naive people and produce in them faith, infatuation, enthusiasm, and even fanaticism for subjective aims – even if the person subjectively thinks those aims are “good” – is evil.

And that, of course, is what psychopaths do, isn’t it?


OxDrover, your comments about lack of empathy are spot-on. I have been reading a post here:
and the author mentions this:

{{… Dr. Gustav Gilbert whose job it was to interview the Nazi war criminals on trial at Nuremberg. Gilbert may have found in those interviews the psychological nature of evil, an utter lack of empathy.}}

I guess that empathy is the prerequisite for NOT manipulating others.


Well said, Laura.


The definition of “evil” is perfect.

After my first (and hopefully last) involvement with a Sociopath — I actually married him after 6 mos. and filed for annullment after two weeks (which was granted). I was very lucky! Two months later, I discovered he had herpes and had not told me about it . . . I am infected now. These people do not care at all about others. I have also had an HIV test — which was negative. What a relief that was!

There should be a law against anyone knowingly concealing the fact they have an STD and who cavalierely passes it onto others. It is “so like” Sociopaths — having arrogant and cavalier attitudes concerning when and how they “infect” or “inflict” anything on others.

A Sociopath evaluates friendships/loves by asking these questions: How can I benefit from this person? — How can this person make me feel better? — How can this person improve my lifestyle? — What can this person provide what I need? It’s all about their NEED and their personal SATISFACTION.

I wish there was a way to inform the general public. Had I known what to look for, I could have saved myself a lot of grief and I’m sure the subscribers on this site feel the same way. There is a common thread to look for — a test if you will: A Sociopath will NEVER ask if they can do anything for you . . . a Sociopath will NEVER ask how you are doing . . . a Sociopath will NEVER ask if there is anything you need . . . a Sociopath will NEVER be available for you . . . it is ALWAYS (without fail) all about them. Watch, listen and learn.


first let me say is so wonderful to have a place to share my experiences and heartbreak of dealing with a S. This S has finally managed to turn my son against me, and in the process has made a deal with the devil on my involvement with my beloved granddaughter, he won’t admit what has happened but he is a creature of habit and I know my own son. Just when I finally thought he had broken free of 10 years with this S and some years with a child involved, I had my spirit and heart broken….. It is fresh and still very hurtful especially as my son and I have always had an extremely close mother son relationship, I had noticed differences over the last few months, and knew something was off and not right, and when I asked him a point blank question he would skate around it, as is still happening, now I don’t even get a phone call anymore a text once in awhile and when I asked if on one of his three days with his daughter he could come my up my way for a visit, as I live 5 hours away from him, his response was exactly this NOPE!!!!! I don’t have the means financially to go back and forth to where he resides, and the fact that I just recently my husband passed away, he said one day that this would happen, he must be turning over in his grave, as he always worried about me with this situation and the anxiety it always caused me. On my last trip I was so disrespected and couldn’t do anything right I cut my stay 2 days short and came home. My son left a voice mail on my cell phone telling me he had seen a different side of me and that I acted selfishely and immature, at this point I don’t know if he’s wrong or right. I believe his behavior is because of this S but I have been involved in it for so long it was eating me up, and by the way I was I treated on my visit there, decided instead of saying anything hurtful or that I didn’t mean it was best to just leave, I said my goodbyes and left crying all the way home. I just can’t take anymore of the dissappointment, his half truths to me, and I later finding out the real truth, its all just become to much for me, am I wrong??? I had to take a step back and look at the big picture!!!! I have been there for him 200% with all he has gone through with the S at his request and asking for my help I never interfered or got in the middle unless he asked for my help, and then to see him faulter time and time again, and again him not being fully truthful with me, has he been in this situation so long that he too is or has become a S?????? And I fear for my granddaughter, she is such a beautiful warm loving child and has such love for her father, and the mom knows this and uses it continually over and over again, I fear that he is in so deep that he will never climb out, and I will lose him forever, his father has washed his hands of the situation, his brother is tired of the same thing said same things being done day after day, he tired of it, and when he’s with people the S is all he complains about, and then the next day is back to the same routine with her?????? He was in therapy for 2 years and has stopped going there too, and this therapist has been going the full nine yards for my son, telling him that he is dealing with a S border line P and things he must do to end it once and for all, but if this wonderful man can’t even get through to him????? My son has never apologized for the way I was treated and I had my new 5 mo oldaussie pup with me, and he was so neverous around my sons home, that he started to pee pee when my son said something to him, I didn’t understand it at the time, but then I realized that my pup was feeling the tension and stress in my sons home, he was just fine once we got back home and has never had an episode such as that again…… Am I wrong to be worried?????? If I am PLEASE feel free to tell me…Am I over reacting???? I’m starting to questions my decisions now???????? I’m a very loving, giving, helpful and intelligent person and human being, I’ve never felt so helpless in my life!!!!!! I’ve gone on long enough and need to bed myself down for the night and get ready for tomorrows duties!!!! Thank you so much for having this list to comment to and for the wonderful and informational data you provide, I come to this website often, and read that I am not alone…. Its hard to believe just how many of you that are out there that have met with and been injured and scarred by S and P its seems like we have an epidemic on our hands!!!!!!! or is it a Plague?????? Sincerely Songbird


Let me run this story by you.

A little boy and a little girl (approximately 5 years old) are running down the street … laughing and giggling, having fun. 40 adults are gathered in the backyard to the cottage helping set up the picnic area. It’s the first of a 3 day weekend starting the summer. The older children are throughout a variety of locations of the cottage and property. The teenagers promptly went across the street to the beach, soaking up the rays.

Meanwhile, the little boy and little girl start chasing butterflies. As they are running and jumping they both trip and fall to the hard paved street. Tears start flowing down their faces. Both get up from the street, crying, as they rub their knees they start hobbling as fast as they can towards the back yard where the adults are gathered. Everyone turns to look at the children. They see the pain on both children and the tears are streaming down their cheeks. The women start calling the children over to them. The children start walking in the direction of the women. At that moment, the men pull the boy over to them. Each telling the little boy, wipe your tears, big boys don’t cry, be a good soldier, let us look at that scrape … oh, it’s not that bad, let us put some iodine on it, you’ll be OK, stop your crying. Meanwhile, the women are falling all over the little girl telling her “oh honey, it will be ok” as the mom starts hugging and kissing her daughter close to her, wiping away her tears. Another woman starts stroking the little girl’s hair. All the other women start helping the little girl in one way or another. Dad walks over to mom and hands her the iodine. Mom gently kisses her daughter’s knees as she gently pours the iodine on the scrape. Another woman walks into the cottage and retrieves a box of bandaids.

Do you notice anything in this story?

If you do, then you will realize that society has been conditioning it’s self for years.

This is about spirituality. All of us as humans, experiencing the physical realm down on Earth.

What do you think that little boy thought while watching the little girl being doted on? He hurt and was bruised just like she was? Did he now despise her because she was allowed to cry, he hurt just a badly as she did? Did he look down at her and thought? I’m superior, I can handle the pain and she fell to pieces?

Imagine all the negative thoughts you can put to this scenario from a young boy’s perspective?

What do you think the little girl thought of the boy? Was he stronger than her because he stopped crying? Did he really not feel the pain? Was he more mature than she because he handled it better and she was being a little baby at her age?

How many more negative thoughts can you give this scenario from a little girl’s perspective?

This is the just an example of the unconscious conditioning g of how males in our society are raised versus females. Both children’s knees were scrapped and bleeding … but only the little girl was allowed the experience of the pain and trauma. The little boy was immediately ordered to stop the experience by all the men … to tune everything out of his thought process about this traumatic experience.

Both children were hurt and both were experiencing the pain. Both had scrapes to both knees. Why weren’t both children treated the same? There’s the man made illusion about males versus females. Not God made. Man made.

Tolle’s book “A New Earth” details how we ALL can get back to our spiritual existence versus being conditioned by man made ego illusions/delusions of what we are suppose to be.


Hi ya’ll,

I’m posting this link here as this humanoid embodies the definition of the profoundest evil.

Seems the UN has finally apprehended one of the sickest, twistedest, most wicked and evil ‘creatures of doom’ this planet has ever had the misfortune to witness:

And it’s amazing that he actually has many supporters who seem to be entirely oblivious to the countless murders of innocent women, children and men.

grr….I feel sick just reading his name…

Ox Drover

Jane, I heard on National Public Radio today that he had been transferred to the Hague today for trial. Apparently his ethnic group in his country supports what he did, which is very sad that there is so much ethnic hatred in this world. Sometimes the things I hear and read make me think that “the spirit of Hitler is alive and well” in this world.

It seems when there is some “cause” that the psychopaths take advantage of it and emerge as the leaders of the chaos and hate. I pray for our world.


Hey Wini, haven’t heard from you in a bit. It’s true that all societies condition their children to fit into their unique social structure. But it’s a world-wide phenomenon, the only problem seems to be when society changes too quickly, and people become confused about their roles. I have five brothers and three sons, and about 50 male cousins, and most of them are pretty well adjusted, not tormented souls or anything.. but all of them are proud to be male, they don’t cry much, etc. It doesn’t seem to bother them much.

Our family is pretty supportive though. If one of the boys is more sensitive, nobody picks on him about it. And if one of the girls is a little bit macho.. nobody gives her any crap either .. lol


heres a look at evil. my ex s path was once in a new relationship with a younger girl, he had been with her for six months. contacted me after a long time of me not hearing much, then he started popping up unexpected at my work he then called me oneday let the ph ring once and hung up when i asked him about this he said, he accidently dialled my number yeh right he then said he was going to call me in a few weeks to see how i was ….anyway a few weeks came round and yes he did call and said he wanted to see me. when i asked about his new girlf riend he said yes they were still going out and she was away for the weekend and it would be a good chance for him to catch up with people. anyway he came over and it all seemd innocent then he started to be affectionate toward me hugging ect then he started touching me in a sexual way he wanted to have sex but he kept saying i dont want to hurt my girlf riend, but i want to do this, he said i dont want to hurt her or use you. but well he couldnt stop himself and iwas still in love so we had sex. after it he said he felt guilty and that his griflriend was a nice person he shouldnt have done this . but he walked away and seemed to get over his guilt pretty quick. he also said to me during this visit that he wasnt having much sex with the new girl, when i said talk to her about it he said i dont want to get into an arguement . how strange to not want to talk about this but to just be unfaith ful anyway even though he knew it was wrong. it just seemed like he pushed what he knew was wrong aside to get what he really wanted, the sex. he actually said to me its just sex anyway. my goodness i was a fool back then not now though totally clued up on the s paths now but it just made me think how he knew he was doing a bad thing but did it anyway. he left saying he wanted me to call him, and that the new girl didnt own him. go firgure how the hell do they think this way. . thanks feel free to coment. or has anyone had a similar exp with an ex s path.

Ox Drover

Dear Jules,

Yea, I think that is why they want to keep in contact with “ex GFs” or keep a harem. Of course it gives them supply and that is what it is all about. It is JUST ABOUT THEM and as far as them “feeling” guilty—-NAHHHHH, they may say they do, but they don’t FEEL anything about “guilty”—they’ve just learned to say the “appropriate” words.’

If you look at how they ACT and IGNORE THE WORDS, you get the REAL PICTURE.

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