Contrary to a prevailing myth, sociopaths are really no smarter than the average individual”¦probably dumber. Sure, a good one can dupe you, but as I’ve written elswhere, this is no great shakes, as most of us can dupe each other if that’s our goal.
That’s because we enter relationships risking trust and faith in each other, which makes the exploitation of our trust and faith really easy. It takes no genius or particularly smart, crafty person to exploit this trust and faith. It’s as easy to do as it’s wrong.
And so, most sociopaths aren’t really that clever, or ingeniously bright. Most make messes not only of others’ lives, but their own too. Many end up in jail, and those who don’t are often finding trouble in other areas, exercising poor judgement all over the map, squandering friendships, family, and all sorts of meaningful opportunities.
By most standards of a successful life, sociopaths live lives of abject failure, accomplishing little more, at the end of the day, than having produced plenty of havoc and pain. None of this indicates that, as a group, sociopaths are smart.
Sometimes the media sensationalizes the sociopath as the dark, brilliantly predatory monster, especially in classic cases of psychopaths like Ted Bundy. But Ted Bundy wasn’t so smart. In the end, he was nothing but a vicious, sadistic murderer who managed to lure young, naïve girls sufficiently into his proximity to then viciously murder them.
How much of an accomplishment was this? To be able to lure naïve girls near enough to his car to then kidnap and kill them? Otherwise, OJ Simpson style, Bundy was ambushing dormitories at night and butchering innocent, sleeping college kids. Not exactly a genius, or courageous guy, at work here. Just a perverse, murderously violent, cowardly man.
Sure, Bundy was reputedly charming and articulate (video of him bears this out). But this didn’t make him “smart.” He was, clearly, adept at “masking” himself. But again, effective maskers aren’t smart; they’re just good maskers. And nonsociopaths routinely are good maskers.
Good masking, good self-disguising is a type of social skill, and not the purview of sociopaths exclusively. Also, many sociopaths are terrible maskers, just as many nonsociopaths are.
My point is that the “mask” is not an indication of “smartness.” It’s merely the case that some sociopaths, and some nonsociopaths, can mask aspects of themselves and their agendas effectively; but bear in mind, just as many do this very poorly.
In the end, sociopaths, as a group, have a poor track record of living effective lives. Rather, they live disruptive, unsatisfying lives”¦fraught with pathological attitudes and empathic deficits that bring misery to others and, correspondingly, much trouble and, at best, empty satisfaction, to themselves.
Sociopaths simply are not successful people. They may (or may not) skate along under the radar for some stretch of time, but this is not a “game” that smart people play, and that smart people get off on.
Only dumb people play this game. Only really dumb people live this way. Only really really dumb people derive satisfaction, for however long they can swing it, from pulling the wool over others’ eyes.
It’s just no great shakes to do this, and it doesn’t make you smart.
I started out on a “support group” on MSN that was owned by Sam Vaknin and the moderators were as abusive and snarky as he is…there was so much flame throwing there that I was devastated, and finally I found LF and when I first came here I was so RAW and vulnerable that the first flame out that happened here (they do occasionally happen here too) almost did me in. Aloha who was one of the first posters on LF was also flamed and still raw enough she got burned too—Donna has been VERY CAREFUL and WORKED VERY hard to keep LF AS FLAME PROOF as possible.
The last big effort was the “report abusive comment button” and an article she wrote about NOT RESPONDING TO PEOPLE WHO THROW OUT A BAIT AND A HOOK TO TRY TO GET A FLAME WAR GOING!
I can’t tell you how much that means to me personally.
As far as contacting people privately off line I have done that and there are a few people I still correspond with by email or phone, but the ONE TIME I ACTUALLY MET SOMEONE from LF and actually let this person who lived in a small RV move on to my place SHE TURNED OUT TO BE A PSYCHOPATH HERSELF POSING AS A VICTIM….and that is something that we all need to keep in mind.
The woman I took in was a frequent poster here on LF and she spoke and wrote eloquently and had posted on another legitimate survivor blog and participated in all kinds of things that would make one think she was a legitimate victim, but she was just a person who had BEEN OUTED in her attempts to con others….and lost the battle, so was presenting herself as the VICTIM in order to get to a new supply of people who would buy into her con game…and that is exactly what it was.
After 3-4 months of being here and NO ATTEMPT to get a job, no contribution to communal living efforts–she even found excuses why she could not clean the bathroom in my house that was for HER PERSONAL USE ALONE—I finally realized she had no intention of helping herself or contributing anything except her presence and her drama to the farm and I didn’t need that.
She didn’t get me for any significant amount of money (I gave her $150 when I told her to leave my farm TODAY) I didn’t give her the opportunity to stay around after I told her that “this just isn’t working, you aren’t in any better place than you were when you came here” but gave her enough cash to get her far away in case she didn’t have any cash for gas.
She immediately started to try to “blame me” for everything that had happened to her since she was age 2 and accused me of abusing her, she did a FINE PITY PLAY, then an anger play, and spun like a top back to the pity play. I actually was not falling for this and was amazed at how TEXT BOOK HER PERFORMANCE WAS.
I simply stood there watching her twist and turn to try every thing she could think of to connect with my guilt or insecurity about how I had treated her—I was frankly quite proud of myself, but I was unmoved because I knew that not one word of what she was saying was true. I did not begin to doubt myself and feel guilty that I had “made her cry.” She even accused me of refusiing her medical care that she needed and I said “You know, I offered to get you into the free clinic and offered to drive you there” and she said, “well, yes, but you were always so busy I didn’t want to trouble you.” WELL YEA!!! I was busy all right, doing things for her! And she had REFUSED to go to the clinic because they required identification—actually I have no proof she was even who she said she was,, I was so dumb I never even got any ID on her, hell she could have been the hill side strangler for all I knew.
Now I’m not trying to dampen anyone’s spirits or friendship, because that isn’t my point here, but at the same time, a bit of CAUTION on everyone’s part in trading e mails or getting together for a meet up is important.
Remember One/Joy’s experience with the on-line person who wasn’t who they said they were—that does happen, so it is like any kind of on-line meeting, to be taken with a grain of caution.
To be taken with any kind of REAL LIFE MEETING, WITH A GRAIN OF CAUTION.
Recently there was a guy in the news in Idaho who had lived in the community for 10 or more years as a FARMER (the kind of person you would expect to be who they said they were) and turned out he was a MOBSTER FROM BOSTON living on the lam….so who’d a’thunk?
No matter where you meet someone it is not a bad idea to vet them, check them out, to make sure that they are who they say they are and that they are WHAT they say they are. Remember, ACTIONS speak louder than words….and anyone can be anyone or anything behind a computer screen.
Oxy, one can never be too careful! Like you said to me when I was paranoid about my ex cyberstalking me even on this website: Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you. And the person out to get you may not always be the one you think. I hate being on my guard like this because I think there are so many wonderful people in genuine need of support and help. Plus we all come from different fields and can help one another in different, complementary ways. I hope these friendships and collaborations win out over the frauds, be they in our lives or the occasional ones on this website. Is that psychopathic conwoman still posting on lovefraud/MSN even now or has she disappeared from the blogosphere?
Ox,
I had heard this story of the woman on your farm before, but I had no idea she was from this site.
I believe the site owned by Vaknin is the SAME site that I was on that you’re referring too in that I was talking about.
ON THE OTHER HAND, at a christian chat site that I was on for a long, long time (not anymore), I met a wonderful man and his wife online. They were both VERY kind!! I had the opportunity to meet them, as he was a truck driver and he and his wife often made stops going through our state and near where I lived at the time. I was very sick with my fibro at the time and wasn’t able to meet up with them when they got here. I sooooo regret being sick and not being able to get together with them because shortly thereafter, he was diagnosed with terminal cancer and passed away about a year later. That was five years ago now. Since then, his wife and I no longer participate in the chat, but she is one of my dearest friends on FB, as is her niece, nephew, and her husbands sister is one of my dearest friends as well. His sister is an artist and a couple of days ago, I received a pencil drawn portrait of my grandson and granddaughter. It is PRECIOUS to me and was one of the BEST gifts I’ve ever received. She is also familiar with what has happened to me and has given the most incredible love and support. She is now going through some things and I’m happy to love and support her too. Anyway, there are people online that are kind and caring.
I think the danger with the MSN site is that it IS run by Vaknin and those that moderate it are his cronies. I don’t think they are encouraged to support differing opinions of others with regards to Vaknin writings either. Although I personally bought his book and learned MUCH from it, it wasn’t the ONLY book on the planet that was knowledgeable about psychopaths/narcissists. I did watch “I, psychopath” and thought that was interesting and a birds eye view into who he IS. Seeing his wife’s reactions to his backstabbing and abuse was VERY sad. The filmmakers perspective was fascinating!
I continue to believe that the PM option is a dangerous one indeed. It was used for flaming all over the place. One of the things that I recognized from that site is how easy it was to get sucked into the drama while coming out of a relationshit with one of these people, only to be drawn into the antics of MORE of those people. A distraction and not a nice one either.
I think the way this is set up here is so much safer than any site I’ve been too.
There is a reason to be cautious. I tend to throw caution to the wind, thus my easy sucking in from my past spaths. I assumed everyone to be kind and caring. NOT!
Anyway, Claudia, thanks! trying to maneuver around my home in my efforts to clean around six people should be interesting (no, Ox, I ENJOY doing the heavy stuff by myself! It’s good exercise and keeps my mind BUSY!! so NO KID INVOLVEMENT TODAY LOL)
LL
Oxy,
At least you found out within a “reasonable” time frame with that woman. It took me 25 YEARS to realize that my spath, was NOTHING like what he presented himself to be. AND he was living with me for almost the entire time!
His presentation was that he was a hard working, blue collar, animal loving, heterosexual type who was uniquely talented in many ways but often had hard luck because of his dyslexia and consequent lack of education.
The truth is that he was a lazy, man-whore, con-artist, bi/tri/quad-sexual sex addict, whose main goal in life is to destroy innocence and watch things decay.
Granted I was only 17 when I met him and was quickly isolated, but still, it seems mind-boggling that he could hide such a 180 degree personality from me. I think it goes to show that if you are not trained to understand this PD, you will be fooled over and over and over again.
Now that I HAVE been trained, I think I can spot them much quicker. But I still have a vulnerability in that I feel sorry for them. There was a woman last year who was going to “rent” my cabin, to trade work for rent. Her story is that she was going to be homeless in a couple of weeks. She has a retarded son whom her ex took away from her but still gets to see him occasionally. Long story short: there was a love bomb and then the attempt to control me and sell all my things so that she could take the money. It only took a week before I saw the scam, but I still felt bad telling her she was not going to move into my house. I had to stop answereing the phone to avoid getting sucked into the drama.
Sky,
You just described my psychopath as well: “The truth is that he was a lazy, man-whore, con-artist, bi/tri/quad-sexual sex addict, whose main goal in life is to destroy innocence and watch things decay.”
The person does not post here on LF any more. She has been kicked off the other respectable site and outed to everyone who actually had any kind of relationship with her on line or off that we knew about. I also discussed this woman and her behavior with a psychiatrist friend of mine and the friend concurred that she was most likely very high in P-traits, at the very best that could be said for her. The main thing was that she was always “hinting” about needing money for this or that, and had no desire at all to look for any kind of job, and though she had been offered legitimate work (via someone I know) doing editing via internet, even that she didn’t want to do though she did a bit of it.
Her stories that she told of past abuses by this person and that person slowly began to change and Thought I know I have short term memory problems I’m not TOTALLY devoid of memory short term or long term so I started writing these stories down, and then the 2nd and 3rd versions of the same story didn’t mesh. That was one way I caught on to my X-BF P too was to write down the stories he told and when they CHANGED I began to get some clues. The main one I got was that the woman was a taker and never a giver or a doer. If she didn’t get what she wanted she would cry and go into the pity play. It worked a bit for me at first, but soon became very tiring and frustrating that I couldn’t please her no matter what I tried to do to meet her needs.
She was very bright, well educated, very literate and could discuss psychopaths with the best of them! Had infinite “compassion” in writing to others–great poster here actually—but NO follow through on self care at all. Very dependent on getting her needs met by others, very entitled.
But you know, I am GLAD I took her in in retrospect, because I got a really GREAT LESSON and pretty cheaply in terms of having had a relationshit dealing with a psychopath of any sort. I LEARNED FROM HER. I am proud of myself for not getting sucked into “fixing” her life or feeling guilty because she had problems…I actually PUT INTO PRACTICE what I have been saying and telling myself about NOT ASSUMING OTHER PEOPLE’S PROBLEMS AS OUR OWN, not doing for others what they SHOULD be doing for themselves.
Skylar, I’m just like you on falling for the pity ploy, and “won’t you please help me?” But I am LEARNING and this woman taught me quite a lot so I see it as another lesson I got from life–and that time the tuition was cheap enough! Well worth the $150 I gave her to get lost.
Oxy,
you are way worse than I am because at least I have a money boundary: there’s no way she would have gotten $5 from me, much less $150! 🙂 (((Oxy, you are a softie)))
But I did give her a few items and told her she could craigslist them.
As far as poster here go, I’m suspicious of every new poster, but I think I can tell which ones are definitely good and which ones are definitely bad news. Then there are the majority which I have no opinion on either way, but will give the benefit of the doubt and extend love and compassion.
Because I’m a musician, whenever I think of famous narcissists, I think, not of the Charlie Sheen example, I think, instead of Andre Previn (famous conductor/arranger? hmm, possibly he’s a sociopath, too?) In the 1970’s, I heard Dori Previn’s (Previn’s ex wife’s) album, with her song, Angels and Devils The Following Day [reference her lyrics, on http://www.hotlyrics.net/lyrics/D/Dory_Previn/Angels_And_Devils_The_Following_Day.html ] Not many know she is a musician as well as a poet, but, of course everyone’s heard of Andre Previn (you’ll hear his name announced on the play list, for many NPR programs) I think Angels and Devils The Following Day was probably about Andre Previn, and I DON’T think he was the lover with whom she “made love on the floor” (if you catch my drift.)
Oxy and Sky, we all know at least one person on this forum who is safe to meet in person: Hens! He got about a dozen letters of recommendation from you guys on the day I mistakenly attacked him. Sky I hope I’m on your “good” list:).
If somebody need’s to check out my background and credit history, my income and my religious and political view’s just to chat about something similar that happened to us both, then they will find plenty of reasons not to chat with me, because my credit is not the best. I am not a 50 year old virgin, I have been around the block several times. I have baggage and issue’s..but here I am….dont judge me till you have walked in my shoes. Now if your planning on dating or marrying me go ahead and check me out…..didnt we just fill out a survey asking us if we have had to file bankruptsy because of our X spath? I have never preached about how great I am,,,