Remember the Electric Light Orchestra? I couldn’t resist. But I really want to say something about an e”¦evil woman. Actually, not really. I just wanted an excuse to say e..evil woman. Okay, I’ve said it, again. Now I’ve got it out of my system. I’ll stop with that.
But I do want to talk about evil. Evil’s such a dicey word. Evil? What is evil? What really makes someone evil? Do evil people exist?
That is, can someone even be evil: Are people evil, or just their behaviors?
I remember a friend of mine, a close friend, years ago, once called me an “evil m*therf*cker,” and I laughed. Did I laugh because I’m evil, thereby validating his accusation? Or did I laugh because I was secure enough to know I’m not?
By the way, what prompted his accusation was a really cruel, funny practical joke I played on him. I’m afraid he found it much more cruel than funny, whereas I found it much funnier than cruel. (Maybe some other time I’ll describe the joke?)
Speaking of cruel, is there a relationship between evil and cruelty? Are they the same thing? When you’re being cruel, or committing a cruel act, are you being evil? Is the cruelty itself evil?
If you don’t have a headache by now, I do. But that’s okay”¦I’ll even make it worse by posing some more light questions, like: Are exploiters, by definition, evil? Is exploitation always evil? Or, must acts of exploitation reach a certain threshhold of heinousness to constitute evil?
And what about our favorite friends, the sociopaths? Are sociopaths, by definition, evil? Sometimes? Always?
And then, of course, the really ultimate question: Do you really think I’m going to answer these questions?
Do you really think I’m crazy, and grandiose, enough, to tackle these questions?
Maybe I am”¦but I can assure you, not adequately. Still, I will “man up” and offer some “takes” on these heady matters, if for no other purpose than to drum-up some good discussion!
I fully expect, incidentally, your feedback to change my mind on, and views of, these questions many times, exposing (you can be sure) the fickleness of my positions.
But, for the moment, here are my short answers:
I believe people can be evil, not just do evil; in other words, I believe some people are evil.
I believe that evil is always cruel, but that cruelty is not always evil.
I believe that evil is always exploitative, but that exploitation is not always evil.
I believe that evil is always destructive, but that destructiveness is not always evil.
Consistent with these views, I believe that some exploiters and, more specifically, some sociopaths—but not all—are evil.
Now, for my personal working definition of evil, in all its glaring limitations: Evil, as I see it, is the lust to express cruelty towards, and/or destructiveness of, others.
There it is. Note the boldfaced “lust to express;” I regard the “lust” as a central element of evil.
Let me dive right into an elaboration of some of my positions.
Evil is always cruel, but cruelty is not always evil. My view here is that evil, fortunately, is less commonplace than cruelty. Cruelty, however, is tragically commonplace.
Most of us are capable of cruelty, but most of us are not evil. This isn’t to diminish the impact of cruelty. In fact, because cruelty is so commonplace and destructive, it is arguably the worst part of human nature.
But not all cruelty is lust-driven. When cruelty is lust-driven, it is evil. When not, it is something less than evil—although I stress that even this debatable point doesn’t lessen cruelty’s impact one iota.
I think the same applies to “exploitation—”that is, exploitation is cruel, always, but not always evil. Valid or not, this assertion isn’t meant to minimize the potentially traumatic impact of exploitation.
Let me give a relatively benign example: A slick colleague convinces you to lend him $150 cash, promising to pay you back in a couple days. The next day, he’s gone. Has left the job. Quit. Never gave notice. The boss is bewildered, and you are too. You never hear from him again. You knew him well enough (so you thought) to lend him the money, but not, as it turns out, as well as you thought. The money probably bought his Amtrak ticket to Seattle.
You were fleeced. He knew he’d be gone, and he had no intention of honoring his debt. To him, you weren’t so much a nice guy whose generosity he appreciated, as much as, ultimately, a sucker. You were taken. He’s a sociopath.
But he needed the money, and put it to practical use. The problem is, he stole it from you. But he needed the money, and money is money, however he can get his hands on it. Not all sociopaths think like this, but some do.
This sociopath was thinking somewhat pragmatically; he needed the money and schemed to get it. But here’s the point: He didn’t lust for your suffering as much as he lusted for your money. Basically, he was greedy and sociopathically conniving, and so he took what he wanted, not per se to inflict pain or harm on you, but because he wanted it.
In this instance, he is exploitative, in my view, but not evil.
Is he cruel? Not in this example. I define cruel as having an intention to inflict harm or pain on someone. This could be mental, or physical pain. It is arguably cruel, for instance, to dismiss someone contemptuously, and yet it is not necessarily cruel, but is definitely exploitative, to con someone out of $150.
A former client of mine, around 1994, shot-up a bunch of kids at a swimming pool with a semi-automatic weapon. (For my own pathetic ego, I was grateful he waited until about two years after I last saw him.) He’d been dually diagnosed as a psychopath and paranoid schizophrenic. Was he evil? I don’t think so, although I appreciate that those kids, and their families, might have thought so.
In any case, I think he was more paranoid than evil, although he was certainly cruel. I also think that he believed that those kids were evil.
So, in this case, which is not hypothetical, I’d suggest that my ex-client was cruel, but not necessarily evil, or for that matter, even exploitative.
How about a Bernie Madoff? Is Bernie Madoff evil? I don’t think so. Yet he may very well be a sociopath and most certainly was heinously exploitative. Was he cruel? I don’t think so, again. I don’t think it was Madoff’s intention to inflict suffering on anyone. That wasn’t his primary motive to do what he did, despite the devastating impact of his greed and deception.
Regarding cruelty: for me, to be cruel implies, and requires, an intention to cruelty; it is a separate issue whether the consequences of your actions are experienced as cruel. I suspect that Madoff’s victims will describe him as cruel, if only for his indifference. However, I don’t see, from the little that is known about this case, that “cruelty” drove Madoff’s exploitation.
Now let’s tackle some big fish: How about Saddam Hussein and Adolph Hitler?
Hussein, in my view, was both cruel and exploitative, but I’m not sure I’d call him evil. Hussein’s lust was principally for power, less principally (one might argue) evil-driven. His cruelty was more a means to an end—the “end” being the consolidation and preservation of his power, by whatever ruthless means necessary. Was he a sociopath? Very possibly.
Hitler, I think, was cruel, exploitative, and evil. Hitler’s lust transcended his obsession with power; his was a lust to exterminate the Jews and other “non-desirables.” In other words, apart from his pathological lust for power, he also had a lust for cruelty and destruction. The latter meets the criteria of evil.
What do you think? Whatever it is, I’m betting it’ll change my mind?
(This article is copyrighted (c) 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)
Now that Star has replied with humor and demonstrated it didn’t “crush” her as probably intended , I would go with learnthelesson’s #3 if I were you, Star:
NO CONTACT.. NO RESPONSE. NADA” ZILCH”ZERO”. and then laugh your a@.......@ off all the way to your reptile site, continuing your conversations with everyone else”never mentioning her or her email or ANYTHING ABOUT HER = YOU WIN!!!!!
oops I see you already responded… thought you were asking for suggestions to respond. Well if she responds again, youll know what to do!
As for letting it go completely…the best way to let go of toxic people is not to respond to them the first red flag or thereafter…no second chances or letting guard down anymore.. one and done. Or simply address it and say your comments were out of line and unnecessary. The relationships I have with breeders is none of your business. Please refrain from contacting me further.
And what you did by handling it with humor is another option too! If any further contact tho, cut it off – by no contact at all.
I considered the NC option and also the option of telling her that “the mods don’t take too kindly to harassing members on the private forum, and that she can get banned for it.” I went with the humor option. Don’t know if that was the right thing to do because I’m still feeling angry. I wish I’d stood up for myself more, but she is such a small person that I didn’t want to escalate it. I think I will do the NC thing from now on. I kind of like a few of you guys’ suggestion, too, especially the one about peace and light finding her life some day.
I actually even thought about posting a thread called “fun with trolls” where I posted her message, bleeping out her name and have others berate the “anonymous” person on a public forum. That would be really evil on my part (evil grin) and just the sort of thing I would do. Perhaps another time.
Thanks to both of you. The feedback really really helped.
I once encountered an anonymous troll on a reptile forum on one of my threads about my snake. She kept calling me a “silly hooker.” So I said to her “Hey, you seem familiar. Didn’t we share a street corner together once?” LOL I seem to always use humor. But sometimes maybe I just need to take a stand.
Star said:
“I seem to always use humor. But sometimes maybe I just need to take a stand”
TOWANDA SISTER! Nothing evil, or malice or hurtful. Almost as though you dont have time for disordered people and want to tell her to stop contacting you or you yourself institute NO CONTACT.. Its a powerful thing1 She will troll on to her next willing participant… but that wont be STARGAZER~
Well, I haven’t heard back from her, so hopefully I’m done with her. I just need to let go of it. I will have to do some breathing technique, cause I’m just struggling with it.
On a cheerier note (well, sort of) I got in a minor fender bender on Friday. There was no yelling or blaming. We both scraped up bumpers and fenders, and I had a knocked out turn signal cover. We exchanged information with a smile, agreed to talk later on the phone and smiled at each other and wished the other a good day. I called her later and said I felt we were both at fault. She agreed and agreed to help me with 50% of my damages, which will only be $50 (neither of us are fixing our scratched bumpers). It was the most pleasant auto incident I’ve ever had. I was so proud of the laid back and fair way I handled it. Why can I be so calm and cool in some situations and others just make me want to scream?
Star – Youre so funny… on a cheerier note I got in a minor fender bender!! LOL … You came across a like minded healthy individual, who handled it mature and responsible .. share a smile and reached a mutual agreement! You were met with similar style of your own, and you were dealing with someone who was respectful and courteous – as you are. Its the dysfunctional ones who bring out our E-Evil side! From now on just pick the normal snake vendors to do business with and cardrivers to bump into to!! 🙂
LOL I’m starting to find out that snake people are all really pretty strange. I haven’t found a normal one yet. That E-Evil lady actually is the one who puts on all of the reptile expos. So when I go, I go to great lengths to avoid her booth. It’s really hard to understand why people have to harbor such hate. I thought about telling her harboring so much hostility is gonna make her sick or cause cancer or something. The original incident that caused our falling out was something she did that I felt was really out of integrity. I was very clear about my feelings and let her know that customers do talk and that I would share the experience on the reptile site. (Me and my big mouth). Had I never said that, she would never have showed up over there. But she really took it as a challenge to fight, and she has not stopped fighting since, even though I long forgot about it.
In one of my recent posts I’d read an article about curing BPD by bringing feelings of love and joy into the heart. One of the ways to do it is to practice “loving kindness” meditation. This is where you actually send out loving kindness to everyone in your life, including your enemies. I may try that tonight and see if it works.
Whew….evil? I always liked the definition “stupid self interest”, but would add: “not caring…before, during, and after”.
The “personal growth” from the x-perience? I’d much rather have avoided the lesson. However, I’ve been blessed with time to recover, so life is still good.
Jim, Glad you are home, we missed you! The Bible says that “tribulation worketh patience” which I think is a good way to look at problems, they are definitely LEARNING EXPERIENCES, and if we don’t grasp that opportunity to get something positive out of the psychopathic experience, it will have been a “total loss.”
Star, I am not sure there is a cure for a TRUE BPD or any other personality DISORDER. There are people who may exhibit the Borderline TRAITS or behavior patterns on a low level, from environmental stress or abuse as a child, etc. but not really be the DISORDERED person. The DISORDERED PERSON has a STEADY state of these behaviiors, they are STABLE in that person. Since psych diagnosis is a difficult thing to make sometimes (especially with a personality problem) an inaccurate diagnosis might be made, and there is also an interrater problem. A client that I might call a BPD someone else might say was something else with Borderline TRAITS….it isn’t like there is a lab test you can send off and a totally OBJECTIVE diagnosis comes back like for strep throat or something. If a kid comes in with a horrible looking throat I may think it is strep, and you might think it was mono or something else, but we can settle it once and for all with a lab test….not so on psych diagnosis, it is all pretty much SUBJECTIVE from what we SEE, or the client reports to us.
Sometimes it is difficult to tell in an abusive relationship if one person is the abuser, and the other is the victim, or if they are BOTH abusers who just alternate the roles of Victim and Abuser (a gasoline and fire relationship) Sometimes the person who is a victim will “fight back” trying to protect themselves, but sometimes it is TWO disordered people switching roles.
My X DIL who was definitely an abuser, also WANTED an abusive mate, one who would play the “gasoline and fire” situation and alternate with her on who was the victim. My son C would not “fight” with her, and even when she tried to percipitate a physical altercation, he would simply leave. This would frustrate her, she didn’t want a “victim” ONLY (in him) she wanted at times to “Be the victim” as well, which I think is more a BPD trait than a P trait (maybe that is the main difference in them, though a BPD can definitely exhibit P behavior when frustrated.) Many of them also like “revenge” for “abuses” from their gasoline and fire relationships, or if the other person tries to get out of it entirely.
My X DIL is now living with a guy she met on the internet on an “S & M” site. He is the dominant one, and she the submissive, but I don’t think I need a crystall ball to tell that eventually she will get tired of that role and want a reversal of it, so there are sure to be some “fireworks” in the relationship sooner or later. It is the PATTERN of her life, alternating the domiinant and submissive roles, and she doesn’t apparently like to stay in one too long before she wants to change. Since our lives don’t cross paths much any more, I probably won’t even know when it happens, but I no longer care.
Jen2008:
The first one was off the chart with the in your face charm and loved lying to get over on people for no reason whatsoever.
A good candidate for P.
The second one…
Looks to me like a standard ISTP, except for a very strongly expressed T. Low loyalty, low insight, quickly and strongly opinionated, driven to get the most for the least but have too much anxiety to go full-on con-man.
The .357 magnum event was not good – could have been a sign of unresolved work stress leaking out. Did he initiate a discussion afterwards to try and explain or understand the event?