Remember the Electric Light Orchestra? I couldn’t resist. But I really want to say something about an e”¦evil woman. Actually, not really. I just wanted an excuse to say e..evil woman. Okay, I’ve said it, again. Now I’ve got it out of my system. I’ll stop with that.
But I do want to talk about evil. Evil’s such a dicey word. Evil? What is evil? What really makes someone evil? Do evil people exist?
That is, can someone even be evil: Are people evil, or just their behaviors?
I remember a friend of mine, a close friend, years ago, once called me an “evil m*therf*cker,” and I laughed. Did I laugh because I’m evil, thereby validating his accusation? Or did I laugh because I was secure enough to know I’m not?
By the way, what prompted his accusation was a really cruel, funny practical joke I played on him. I’m afraid he found it much more cruel than funny, whereas I found it much funnier than cruel. (Maybe some other time I’ll describe the joke?)
Speaking of cruel, is there a relationship between evil and cruelty? Are they the same thing? When you’re being cruel, or committing a cruel act, are you being evil? Is the cruelty itself evil?
If you don’t have a headache by now, I do. But that’s okay”¦I’ll even make it worse by posing some more light questions, like: Are exploiters, by definition, evil? Is exploitation always evil? Or, must acts of exploitation reach a certain threshhold of heinousness to constitute evil?
And what about our favorite friends, the sociopaths? Are sociopaths, by definition, evil? Sometimes? Always?
And then, of course, the really ultimate question: Do you really think I’m going to answer these questions?
Do you really think I’m crazy, and grandiose, enough, to tackle these questions?
Maybe I am”¦but I can assure you, not adequately. Still, I will “man up” and offer some “takes” on these heady matters, if for no other purpose than to drum-up some good discussion!
I fully expect, incidentally, your feedback to change my mind on, and views of, these questions many times, exposing (you can be sure) the fickleness of my positions.
But, for the moment, here are my short answers:
I believe people can be evil, not just do evil; in other words, I believe some people are evil.
I believe that evil is always cruel, but that cruelty is not always evil.
I believe that evil is always exploitative, but that exploitation is not always evil.
I believe that evil is always destructive, but that destructiveness is not always evil.
Consistent with these views, I believe that some exploiters and, more specifically, some sociopaths—but not all—are evil.
Now, for my personal working definition of evil, in all its glaring limitations: Evil, as I see it, is the lust to express cruelty towards, and/or destructiveness of, others.
There it is. Note the boldfaced “lust to express;” I regard the “lust” as a central element of evil.
Let me dive right into an elaboration of some of my positions.
Evil is always cruel, but cruelty is not always evil. My view here is that evil, fortunately, is less commonplace than cruelty. Cruelty, however, is tragically commonplace.
Most of us are capable of cruelty, but most of us are not evil. This isn’t to diminish the impact of cruelty. In fact, because cruelty is so commonplace and destructive, it is arguably the worst part of human nature.
But not all cruelty is lust-driven. When cruelty is lust-driven, it is evil. When not, it is something less than evil—although I stress that even this debatable point doesn’t lessen cruelty’s impact one iota.
I think the same applies to “exploitation—”that is, exploitation is cruel, always, but not always evil. Valid or not, this assertion isn’t meant to minimize the potentially traumatic impact of exploitation.
Let me give a relatively benign example: A slick colleague convinces you to lend him $150 cash, promising to pay you back in a couple days. The next day, he’s gone. Has left the job. Quit. Never gave notice. The boss is bewildered, and you are too. You never hear from him again. You knew him well enough (so you thought) to lend him the money, but not, as it turns out, as well as you thought. The money probably bought his Amtrak ticket to Seattle.
You were fleeced. He knew he’d be gone, and he had no intention of honoring his debt. To him, you weren’t so much a nice guy whose generosity he appreciated, as much as, ultimately, a sucker. You were taken. He’s a sociopath.
But he needed the money, and put it to practical use. The problem is, he stole it from you. But he needed the money, and money is money, however he can get his hands on it. Not all sociopaths think like this, but some do.
This sociopath was thinking somewhat pragmatically; he needed the money and schemed to get it. But here’s the point: He didn’t lust for your suffering as much as he lusted for your money. Basically, he was greedy and sociopathically conniving, and so he took what he wanted, not per se to inflict pain or harm on you, but because he wanted it.
In this instance, he is exploitative, in my view, but not evil.
Is he cruel? Not in this example. I define cruel as having an intention to inflict harm or pain on someone. This could be mental, or physical pain. It is arguably cruel, for instance, to dismiss someone contemptuously, and yet it is not necessarily cruel, but is definitely exploitative, to con someone out of $150.
A former client of mine, around 1994, shot-up a bunch of kids at a swimming pool with a semi-automatic weapon. (For my own pathetic ego, I was grateful he waited until about two years after I last saw him.) He’d been dually diagnosed as a psychopath and paranoid schizophrenic. Was he evil? I don’t think so, although I appreciate that those kids, and their families, might have thought so.
In any case, I think he was more paranoid than evil, although he was certainly cruel. I also think that he believed that those kids were evil.
So, in this case, which is not hypothetical, I’d suggest that my ex-client was cruel, but not necessarily evil, or for that matter, even exploitative.
How about a Bernie Madoff? Is Bernie Madoff evil? I don’t think so. Yet he may very well be a sociopath and most certainly was heinously exploitative. Was he cruel? I don’t think so, again. I don’t think it was Madoff’s intention to inflict suffering on anyone. That wasn’t his primary motive to do what he did, despite the devastating impact of his greed and deception.
Regarding cruelty: for me, to be cruel implies, and requires, an intention to cruelty; it is a separate issue whether the consequences of your actions are experienced as cruel. I suspect that Madoff’s victims will describe him as cruel, if only for his indifference. However, I don’t see, from the little that is known about this case, that “cruelty” drove Madoff’s exploitation.
Now let’s tackle some big fish: How about Saddam Hussein and Adolph Hitler?
Hussein, in my view, was both cruel and exploitative, but I’m not sure I’d call him evil. Hussein’s lust was principally for power, less principally (one might argue) evil-driven. His cruelty was more a means to an end—the “end” being the consolidation and preservation of his power, by whatever ruthless means necessary. Was he a sociopath? Very possibly.
Hitler, I think, was cruel, exploitative, and evil. Hitler’s lust transcended his obsession with power; his was a lust to exterminate the Jews and other “non-desirables.” In other words, apart from his pathological lust for power, he also had a lust for cruelty and destruction. The latter meets the criteria of evil.
What do you think? Whatever it is, I’m betting it’ll change my mind?
(This article is copyrighted (c) 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)
BPD – typo 🙂
Leah….still reading? LOL…I’ve been reading Kathleen Hawk’s #6 Angry thread off and on for a day! Catching up is time consuming….thanks for Time/BPD info. I’ll go take a look at it, but, then again, I’ve reached my conclusion about my ex, it works for me, and I’ve no need to understand HER further.
I’m understanding ME now. The only value will be recognizing and avoiding another one! TOWANDO!
Thanks all, Jim
Leah…OK, I read the TIME article. The “amazing” Dr. Lineham has her work cut out for her…5.9%? 18 million? I wonder if she ever lived with one? Like I’ve said…been there, done that. Didn’t work for me.
Life goes on…never again, if I can help it. TOWANDO!
Leah, Thanks for pointing out that article and you know, though Time is not a “big seller” much any more, it is one magazine that is usually “believeabble” and any information out there that helps publicize personality disorders or “cluster Bs” is a good thing.
I haven’t read it yet but will look for it.
Jim, since you have read it maybe you can give us some of the highlights, you mentioned “5.9%–18 million?” is that the number of them that is predicted by the author?
I have been mulling over in my head the “percentages” of people that various researchers say are Ps etc. (using the PCL-R passing score as the criteria) and wonder just how many don’t “qualify by a few points, but are pretty DISORDERED anyway…add in the BPDs and others, and it makes me wonder if up to 20% of the poplulation isn’t “pretty disordered” and then add in the people who have environmental dysfunction from BEING abused by these monsters and the whole human race is “screwed up” for sure to the point I am wondering if there is a “normal person” out there, and since the “norm” should be the majority, then if there was some person in the world who wasn’t screwed up, he wouldn’t BE NORMAL would he, he would be ABBY-NORMAL, (line from “Young Frankenstein”) So if any of you guys find ABBY (or maybe it is ABE) let me know and we will put them on display in a ZOO! LOL
Oxy…yes, they were “revising” the low percentages up the scale. A lot of time on the “cutters” and “suicidal” sufferers of the BPD syndrome. No real emphasis on the damage they do to others, as I recall, emotionally. The article did mention “black and white thinking” and “abandonment”. The article seemed to explain them in a sympathetic way as “emotionally thin-skinned”.
As in the 80’s, total “cure” time estimated to be 10 years, and recent discoveries lead to “improvement” after 1 year. (Of course, it seems this begins after a serious crisis….attempted suicide, or something like it).
I’m not the best one to evaluate it…at the point I made my “amateur diagnosis”, I’d lived with her for 25 years. I’d have been dead if I was willing to invest 10 more years helping to “cure” it. And that is on the assumption the BPD wanted to be cured….LOL.
I also think the article said the BPD wasn’t “manipulative”…I’d dispute that.
All in all, nothing useful there for me. May sound harsh, but that’s where I’m at. I’ll let you know if I find the midpoint of the “Bell Curve” or standard deviation markers, if it helps…LOL
It boils down to what I heard my my daughter and her friend saying last night: Daughter: “Mom doesn’t care. She only cares about HER”. Best friend: “Yeah, she really doesn’t!”
Sadly, that says it all for me.
So, on we go, doing what we can…
Jim
lust to express cruelty
Lust of the sexual variety comes from the sex drive.
Lust of the feeding variety (for me chocolate cake) comes from the feeding drive.
Lust for adventure comes from the entertainment drive.
Lust for companionship comes from the affection drive
Greed comes from our drive to acquire
Lust for inactivity (laziness) comes from our drive just to be comfy
From whence does the lust to express cruelty come?
Steve,
I’m guessing the Kurds would disagree with your distinction between Hussein and Hitler.
Liane,
QUOTE: From whence does the lust to epress cruelty come?
ANSWER: Satan? Who else?
I needed to add my two cents into this discussion about the definition of evil because I contemplate this issue every day.
With years of therapy, I’m learning that I’ve been raised by a narcissist who exposed me to multiple sociopaths throughout my life. I’m a perfect target for these people – their radar zeroes right in on me. So my issue has always been “how do I stop this from happening to me?” Do I change or do I learn how to avoid “evil”?
I’m doing both, and I have to respectfully disagree with several of Dr Becker’s points. I understand his distinctions regarding people who exploit – frequently, they aren’t evil. However, the type of sociopaths most people on this site have dealt with are a particular breed.
A person who cons someone out of a favor, or money, what have you, may not necissarily be evil. But a person who knows exactly what kind of predator they are, someone who makes it their life’s work to find a target, entrap them with lies, seduce them with promises, then systematically break them down bit by bit until that “target” is an empty shell of what they used to be – This IS evil. The sociopath may not exactly “lust” after someone else’s harm, but it is their mission in life to inflict it. They do it knowingly. They even build that “target” up, just to tear them down. The last sociopath I was involved with talked with me many months after he lowered the boom on me then moved on to several other victims. We’d been together for 6 years. I questioned his intentions all along the way. I asked for explainations for his strange behavior. He always had a perfectly rational explaination for everything he did. He explained himself as “wanting” to be like everyone else” “but I was raised badly and I don’t know how to express it properly. It’s how I feel, I just don’t show it right.”
I believed this, and made allowances for him for 6 years. Turns out, he knew he was a sociopath, had been diagnosed by a therapist years before. He manipulated my understanding nature to get all he could from me. During our discussion a year later he wanted to know why I stayed with him for so long even though he was difficult. I told him I genuinely loved him (the him he passed himself off as) and even though he was difficult, I thought our relationship was worth the work. He took this conversation and distilled out of it “My ex-girlfriend says I’m hard work but I’m worth it”. He used this line to pick up subsequent victims. He’d say bizarre things like that with this far-off look of rapture on his face. The same expression he had when discussing prior romantic escapades, and previous cons. Maybe this is his expression of “lusting”.
My point is, someone may accidentally or unintentionally mistreat another and that’s not evil. Someone may not realize what they do when they hurt others, it’s just the way they get through life. I don’t think that’s evil. But when someone knows they have a pattern of destroying people’s lives. When they calculatingly search for an appropriate target. When they then sytematically seduce and lure that target in using behavior that is not genuine, then destroy them in an equally systematic way. When they recount the harm they’ve caused with a rapturous expression on their face. These things differentiate careless disregard for others from “EVIL”.
“From whence does the lust to express cruelty come?”
Dr. Liane,
If you ever time, you might enjoy reading “The Lucifer Principle” by Howard Bloom. He considers this question in depth. Bloom’s other book, “The Global Brain” is equally important, IMO.
Leah,……
Yes, the Kurds and how many hundreds of thousands of others who are now unable to speak for themselves.
I’ve never understood splitting hairs about the definition of evil as it applies to certain individuals in the geo-political spotlight, particularly when they intentionally massacre their own citizens and leave a massive trail of blood and bodies within their own borders.