Remember the Electric Light Orchestra? I couldn’t resist. But I really want to say something about an e”¦evil woman. Actually, not really. I just wanted an excuse to say e..evil woman. Okay, I’ve said it, again. Now I’ve got it out of my system. I’ll stop with that.
But I do want to talk about evil. Evil’s such a dicey word. Evil? What is evil? What really makes someone evil? Do evil people exist?
That is, can someone even be evil: Are people evil, or just their behaviors?
I remember a friend of mine, a close friend, years ago, once called me an “evil m*therf*cker,” and I laughed. Did I laugh because I’m evil, thereby validating his accusation? Or did I laugh because I was secure enough to know I’m not?
By the way, what prompted his accusation was a really cruel, funny practical joke I played on him. I’m afraid he found it much more cruel than funny, whereas I found it much funnier than cruel. (Maybe some other time I’ll describe the joke?)
Speaking of cruel, is there a relationship between evil and cruelty? Are they the same thing? When you’re being cruel, or committing a cruel act, are you being evil? Is the cruelty itself evil?
If you don’t have a headache by now, I do. But that’s okay”¦I’ll even make it worse by posing some more light questions, like: Are exploiters, by definition, evil? Is exploitation always evil? Or, must acts of exploitation reach a certain threshhold of heinousness to constitute evil?
And what about our favorite friends, the sociopaths? Are sociopaths, by definition, evil? Sometimes? Always?
And then, of course, the really ultimate question: Do you really think I’m going to answer these questions?
Do you really think I’m crazy, and grandiose, enough, to tackle these questions?
Maybe I am”¦but I can assure you, not adequately. Still, I will “man up” and offer some “takes” on these heady matters, if for no other purpose than to drum-up some good discussion!
I fully expect, incidentally, your feedback to change my mind on, and views of, these questions many times, exposing (you can be sure) the fickleness of my positions.
But, for the moment, here are my short answers:
I believe people can be evil, not just do evil; in other words, I believe some people are evil.
I believe that evil is always cruel, but that cruelty is not always evil.
I believe that evil is always exploitative, but that exploitation is not always evil.
I believe that evil is always destructive, but that destructiveness is not always evil.
Consistent with these views, I believe that some exploiters and, more specifically, some sociopaths—but not all—are evil.
Now, for my personal working definition of evil, in all its glaring limitations: Evil, as I see it, is the lust to express cruelty towards, and/or destructiveness of, others.
There it is. Note the boldfaced “lust to express;” I regard the “lust” as a central element of evil.
Let me dive right into an elaboration of some of my positions.
Evil is always cruel, but cruelty is not always evil. My view here is that evil, fortunately, is less commonplace than cruelty. Cruelty, however, is tragically commonplace.
Most of us are capable of cruelty, but most of us are not evil. This isn’t to diminish the impact of cruelty. In fact, because cruelty is so commonplace and destructive, it is arguably the worst part of human nature.
But not all cruelty is lust-driven. When cruelty is lust-driven, it is evil. When not, it is something less than evil—although I stress that even this debatable point doesn’t lessen cruelty’s impact one iota.
I think the same applies to “exploitation—”that is, exploitation is cruel, always, but not always evil. Valid or not, this assertion isn’t meant to minimize the potentially traumatic impact of exploitation.
Let me give a relatively benign example: A slick colleague convinces you to lend him $150 cash, promising to pay you back in a couple days. The next day, he’s gone. Has left the job. Quit. Never gave notice. The boss is bewildered, and you are too. You never hear from him again. You knew him well enough (so you thought) to lend him the money, but not, as it turns out, as well as you thought. The money probably bought his Amtrak ticket to Seattle.
You were fleeced. He knew he’d be gone, and he had no intention of honoring his debt. To him, you weren’t so much a nice guy whose generosity he appreciated, as much as, ultimately, a sucker. You were taken. He’s a sociopath.
But he needed the money, and put it to practical use. The problem is, he stole it from you. But he needed the money, and money is money, however he can get his hands on it. Not all sociopaths think like this, but some do.
This sociopath was thinking somewhat pragmatically; he needed the money and schemed to get it. But here’s the point: He didn’t lust for your suffering as much as he lusted for your money. Basically, he was greedy and sociopathically conniving, and so he took what he wanted, not per se to inflict pain or harm on you, but because he wanted it.
In this instance, he is exploitative, in my view, but not evil.
Is he cruel? Not in this example. I define cruel as having an intention to inflict harm or pain on someone. This could be mental, or physical pain. It is arguably cruel, for instance, to dismiss someone contemptuously, and yet it is not necessarily cruel, but is definitely exploitative, to con someone out of $150.
A former client of mine, around 1994, shot-up a bunch of kids at a swimming pool with a semi-automatic weapon. (For my own pathetic ego, I was grateful he waited until about two years after I last saw him.) He’d been dually diagnosed as a psychopath and paranoid schizophrenic. Was he evil? I don’t think so, although I appreciate that those kids, and their families, might have thought so.
In any case, I think he was more paranoid than evil, although he was certainly cruel. I also think that he believed that those kids were evil.
So, in this case, which is not hypothetical, I’d suggest that my ex-client was cruel, but not necessarily evil, or for that matter, even exploitative.
How about a Bernie Madoff? Is Bernie Madoff evil? I don’t think so. Yet he may very well be a sociopath and most certainly was heinously exploitative. Was he cruel? I don’t think so, again. I don’t think it was Madoff’s intention to inflict suffering on anyone. That wasn’t his primary motive to do what he did, despite the devastating impact of his greed and deception.
Regarding cruelty: for me, to be cruel implies, and requires, an intention to cruelty; it is a separate issue whether the consequences of your actions are experienced as cruel. I suspect that Madoff’s victims will describe him as cruel, if only for his indifference. However, I don’t see, from the little that is known about this case, that “cruelty” drove Madoff’s exploitation.
Now let’s tackle some big fish: How about Saddam Hussein and Adolph Hitler?
Hussein, in my view, was both cruel and exploitative, but I’m not sure I’d call him evil. Hussein’s lust was principally for power, less principally (one might argue) evil-driven. His cruelty was more a means to an end—the “end” being the consolidation and preservation of his power, by whatever ruthless means necessary. Was he a sociopath? Very possibly.
Hitler, I think, was cruel, exploitative, and evil. Hitler’s lust transcended his obsession with power; his was a lust to exterminate the Jews and other “non-desirables.” In other words, apart from his pathological lust for power, he also had a lust for cruelty and destruction. The latter meets the criteria of evil.
What do you think? Whatever it is, I’m betting it’ll change my mind?
(This article is copyrighted (c) 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)
Well Steve , I feel ,that indeed you have a can of worms here worth consideration. I agree with your short answers , however I DO believe that all sociopaths are evil. I say this only because I have not met one yet, that I could say , ” Now theres a nice person “, I have met many pretending to be nice people , in fact too nice . A domesticated sociopath is just a nasty waiting for a moment to strike . They are worse than wild animals in this regard . You can take a wild animal from birth and domesticate it and it will even have genuine feelings , I believe, for its human friend . a psychopath on the other hand will plan and plot your downfall right from day one . From what I know Of psychopaths , I prefer the word psychopath to sociopath if you don’t mind , there is something weird going on in their heads that most of us may never understand . So what is going on in their heads . They seem to be as conscious as any of us, however at the same time for most of us a friend is a friend , for a psychopath a friend is a victim . Something to be toyed with , manipulated , tormented , ridiculed , and finally destroyed physially or mentally when the boredom sets in or when a new victim happens to pass by and fall into that seductive web .
Steve you say that if someone cons you out of $150 they are not being cruel . How about if you are 80 years old and someone cons you out of $1,000,000 . The only one million that you have and which was keeping you reasonable comfortable in your old age . Now isn’t that cruel . That reminds me of a joke . An old guy approaches a young beautiful woman in a bar and asks if she would have sex with him for $1,000,000 . The woman ponders the offer and says yes . The old man then asks , “how about for $100 “. The woman looks disgusted and replies ” what do you think I am, a whore ” . To that the old man replies ,” honey , I allready know what you are , we are just dickering over the price .
OK , on to the guy who shot up the kids in the swimming pool . Is it possible for someone to be both psychopath and schitzophrenic . I am not an expert but I have met both types and so am a little familiar with both . I would bet that he was a psychopath pretending to be a schitzophrenic . Not only that I would say that the doctors who diagnosed him were fools and had a poor understanding of the two conditions . Psychopaths are always in control and aware of their actions .
Schitzophrenics are out of control and seem not to really be aware of what they are doing . Schitzophrenics are usually of more danger to themselves than to other people , in my opinion .
Now for the big fish . Lets talk about Saddam Hussein. The trouble with history is, that it is the victor that gets to write history . Was George Bush any better than Saddam or are they cut from the same cloth . Saddam Hussein was able to keep the peace in Iraq for many years . Yes he killed alot of people . Look at the number of innocent people who died because of Bushes invasion of the country . Why not invade Saudi Arabia , they are just a ruthless as anything Saddam did. Was he a psychopath I doubt it . Hitler , well ok I will give you that one . What about Napoleon and Ghengis Khan . History would have us believe that many of histories powerful men were psychopaths . I suspect that the truth may be nearer to the possibilty that these leaders had an awarenes of psychopathic evil and knew that it had to be put down no matter what the cost and I suspect that they were right . Psychopaths are time bombs waiting to go off . In todays society domesticated psychopaths go about their daily endeavours and for the most part we are totally oblivious to their situation . For my part I will always be aware of what they are capable of, domesticated or not and hope that we do not , given the present economic situation , slide into a state of social and economic upheaval that causes the psychopaths to reveal their true nature in all its gory detail .
What about the religious zealot who gets into an aircraft and plows it into the twin towers because he believes it is the will of his god? Is he EVIL? Were the men who caused 9/11 “evil”? By our definition, yes, by the definition of their peers and their culture and their religion, they were heroes.
It all depends on WHOSE OX IS GORED what the definition of “evil” is.
I am with Jen that sometimes I can almost intuitively “feel the evil” in someone, yet, I don’t think it is so much “evil,” as I realize (at least on a subconscious level), that person intends me or someone else harm, maybe the same way a rabbit “feels” the presence of the fox.
I see the effects of evil, I read about the effects of evil in the world today. Darfur for example, and many areas of the world where people are suffering.
The person with AIDS who knowingly has unprotected sex with someone else—are they evil? If they pass on the disease it is of course and EVIL RESULT for the person who gets it.
We all use resources that are divided unequally on the face of the earth—we eat more food than is our “share” and consume more fossil fuels than our “share”—and any pollutes the planet, so by our lifestyles we are condemning future generations to want. Is that evil?
Again, evil is like pornography, it is undefinable, but you will know it WHEN YOU SEE IT….at least from YOUR point of view. Someone on here was blogging the other night about a woman who divorced her husband because he was a “pervert” and wanted oral sex, and told everyone he was an evil pervert. Yet is many areas of our society, oral sex is not only acceptable but EXPECTED. That woman perceived her husband as evil and perverted. Many people would not perceive him as perverted at all.
For me, the definition of “evil” or even of “good” is relative to the situation, the culture, the amont of damage, and the perceptions of us all. But I do think it is worth examining for EACH OF US.
Quest, a “domesticated” psychopath is like a “domesticated” tiger (or any other wild predator species, especially cats) and they are time bombs waiting to go off at the MOST unexpected time.
Learnthelesson,
At very least, the guy I dated was a pathological liar. But he had a few other things, like the confidence and charm and the no-holds-barred come-on with promises to love me and take care of me early on in our friendship. He did not strike me as someone who was insecure and had to lie to get attention. (The charm and sincerity was absolutely remarkable.) My friends all thought he was a very sweet man, and so did I. However, I found out later he was involved in a very longterm scam of the army by faking elaborate medical symptoms over the period of a year or two. That’s the icing on the cake that made me think “sociopath”.
I wondered a lot after the break-up whether he may have wanted deep down to be a good person, and whether he was trying because he really had feelings for me. Up until the week we split, he was very consistent in telling me he wanted me and was in love with me. I used to tell him (before I knew about the lies) that he was a good man. He would say in a very humble way, “no, I’m really not.” I thought he was just being humble. Maybe he knew he was a bad person, because others had told him so. Probably other women he lied to. I think he knew that by society’s standards what he was doing with the army was “wrong”. But sociopaths (or whatever his label is) don’t have a real emotional connection to what is right or wrong.
8 months ago, this discussion would have torn me up wondering if he maybe wasn’t a true sociopath, and if, in fact, he did really have feelings for me. It doesn’t matter any more. Pathological lying is, in itself, enough reason to want him out of my life. It doesn’t matter what the cause or the reason, the label, or whatever revelations he may have in his life.
I still can go down the path in my mind if I want to and remember how he made me feel. I can still conjure up feelings for him if I want. But that ship has sailed, and I’m very cleared I don’t want to go there again. I have tender feelings for a few of my exes, but that doesn’t mean I want anything to do with them.
Star – You should have just boinked me with that question of mine…you are right …it doesnt matter…it doesnt matter…
These people are so interesting to me -on paper and at times from a distance – but not when interacting with them on any other level.
To tell you the truth, it would be easier to know he isn’t really a sociopath and does have some sort of heart. Then it would be tolerable to see him posting on my reptile site (I’m sure he’ll come back at some point). I could consider what we went through was just a break up and nothing I need to warn others about.
But I keep coming back to the pathological lying and the army scam contrasting with the fact that he is such a sweet and likable person. There’s just something creepy about it.
Wonder what happens when two Sociopaths find eachother….the dynamics there…
There was nothing to boink you for, learnthelesson (though I gave Oxy her skillet back anyway). I thought is was a very thought-provoking question and I appreciated it. I have re-evaluated a few of my past relationships and seen them in a totally different light a few times. That helped me to let go of anger more easily, when I saw them as basically suffering but not evil or mal-intended. This is really a great discussion. I think most of us hurt others unintentionally because of our own pain. I think we often attribute malicious motives when someone hurts us. Taken to an extreme, some people will think a cat is deliberately ignoring them or a snake is deliberately biting them, which is ridiculous. I think most of people’s bad behaviors are not personal. I am seeing this more and more, and it is freeing me from feeling attacked by them and the need to defend myself.
However, there are people who are genuinely mal-intended. They deliberately set others up to fail so they can get pleasure from others’ pain. Or they get some kind of perverse pleasure out of inflicting the pain. I think that’s a whole different thing. I am curious if people think all sociopaths are inherently like this, and maybe I’m just in denial.
I really don’t understand what went on with my ex. If I believed he loved me on some level and was just mixed up in the head, maybe from his various trips to fight in Iraq, I could probably have more closure and more peace with him. But I don’t think I will ever know what really happened.
Food for thought…. in my search for answers… I came across these responses…
“There is no good and evil in the physical sense. I.e., on a planet with no humans they don’t exist in any sense.
Their definitions are necessarily ‘with respect’ to certain conditions, and these conditions change in ways that affect the definitions. Example: how evil am I when I kill? How evil am I when I kill someone to save 100 lives? Save a billion? The words we use to describe morals are too imprecise.
Basically, good and evil are not absolutes, but rather concepts that act as guidelines to actions and to experiences. With this in mind any discussion of good and evil should concern itself (primarily) with ways in which people can think and act in ways that will lead to – at the system wide level of humanity (and various lower levels) – more preferable experiences (happiness etc).
If you reply: Killing even one person is always wrong, it doesn’t matter how many lives it saves, even a billion. I would say that I value the experience of myself and others more than an abstract concept, and the preservation of ‘it’.
As such I propose that the issue of good and evil should be conceptualised as a problem of systems analysis, and that all issues be discussed with respect to a decision, towards generally better courses of action.”
Another interesting idea. I come from a Buddhist background where there are no concepts of “good” and “evil”. However, there is a such thing as actions having consequences or karma. The karma always hurts the person performing the unskillful actions because we are really all connected to one another. Hurting someone else is like hurting ourselves. Anyone who develops empathy will feel remorse for causing harm to living beings. I honestly don’t know how to categorize those who lack empathy and don’t have the capacity to acquire it. Certainly, their actions have consequences. But there is never a connection made, never a circle completed. They may end up in prison, but never ponder the seriousness of what they did. Their actions seriously affect others, but the accountability never comes back to them, at least not in this lifetime.
Fantasizing sexually about under age girls = Sick.
Collecting pictures of under age girls = Sick and illegal.
Stalking and molesting under age girls = Sick and illegal and evil.
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Evil is when sick people perpetrate illegal acts on innocent people.