Remember the Electric Light Orchestra? I couldn’t resist. But I really want to say something about an e”¦evil woman. Actually, not really. I just wanted an excuse to say e..evil woman. Okay, I’ve said it, again. Now I’ve got it out of my system. I’ll stop with that.
But I do want to talk about evil. Evil’s such a dicey word. Evil? What is evil? What really makes someone evil? Do evil people exist?
That is, can someone even be evil: Are people evil, or just their behaviors?
I remember a friend of mine, a close friend, years ago, once called me an “evil m*therf*cker,” and I laughed. Did I laugh because I’m evil, thereby validating his accusation? Or did I laugh because I was secure enough to know I’m not?
By the way, what prompted his accusation was a really cruel, funny practical joke I played on him. I’m afraid he found it much more cruel than funny, whereas I found it much funnier than cruel. (Maybe some other time I’ll describe the joke?)
Speaking of cruel, is there a relationship between evil and cruelty? Are they the same thing? When you’re being cruel, or committing a cruel act, are you being evil? Is the cruelty itself evil?
If you don’t have a headache by now, I do. But that’s okay”¦I’ll even make it worse by posing some more light questions, like: Are exploiters, by definition, evil? Is exploitation always evil? Or, must acts of exploitation reach a certain threshhold of heinousness to constitute evil?
And what about our favorite friends, the sociopaths? Are sociopaths, by definition, evil? Sometimes? Always?
And then, of course, the really ultimate question: Do you really think I’m going to answer these questions?
Do you really think I’m crazy, and grandiose, enough, to tackle these questions?
Maybe I am”¦but I can assure you, not adequately. Still, I will “man up” and offer some “takes” on these heady matters, if for no other purpose than to drum-up some good discussion!
I fully expect, incidentally, your feedback to change my mind on, and views of, these questions many times, exposing (you can be sure) the fickleness of my positions.
But, for the moment, here are my short answers:
I believe people can be evil, not just do evil; in other words, I believe some people are evil.
I believe that evil is always cruel, but that cruelty is not always evil.
I believe that evil is always exploitative, but that exploitation is not always evil.
I believe that evil is always destructive, but that destructiveness is not always evil.
Consistent with these views, I believe that some exploiters and, more specifically, some sociopaths—but not all—are evil.
Now, for my personal working definition of evil, in all its glaring limitations: Evil, as I see it, is the lust to express cruelty towards, and/or destructiveness of, others.
There it is. Note the boldfaced “lust to express;” I regard the “lust” as a central element of evil.
Let me dive right into an elaboration of some of my positions.
Evil is always cruel, but cruelty is not always evil. My view here is that evil, fortunately, is less commonplace than cruelty. Cruelty, however, is tragically commonplace.
Most of us are capable of cruelty, but most of us are not evil. This isn’t to diminish the impact of cruelty. In fact, because cruelty is so commonplace and destructive, it is arguably the worst part of human nature.
But not all cruelty is lust-driven. When cruelty is lust-driven, it is evil. When not, it is something less than evil—although I stress that even this debatable point doesn’t lessen cruelty’s impact one iota.
I think the same applies to “exploitation—”that is, exploitation is cruel, always, but not always evil. Valid or not, this assertion isn’t meant to minimize the potentially traumatic impact of exploitation.
Let me give a relatively benign example: A slick colleague convinces you to lend him $150 cash, promising to pay you back in a couple days. The next day, he’s gone. Has left the job. Quit. Never gave notice. The boss is bewildered, and you are too. You never hear from him again. You knew him well enough (so you thought) to lend him the money, but not, as it turns out, as well as you thought. The money probably bought his Amtrak ticket to Seattle.
You were fleeced. He knew he’d be gone, and he had no intention of honoring his debt. To him, you weren’t so much a nice guy whose generosity he appreciated, as much as, ultimately, a sucker. You were taken. He’s a sociopath.
But he needed the money, and put it to practical use. The problem is, he stole it from you. But he needed the money, and money is money, however he can get his hands on it. Not all sociopaths think like this, but some do.
This sociopath was thinking somewhat pragmatically; he needed the money and schemed to get it. But here’s the point: He didn’t lust for your suffering as much as he lusted for your money. Basically, he was greedy and sociopathically conniving, and so he took what he wanted, not per se to inflict pain or harm on you, but because he wanted it.
In this instance, he is exploitative, in my view, but not evil.
Is he cruel? Not in this example. I define cruel as having an intention to inflict harm or pain on someone. This could be mental, or physical pain. It is arguably cruel, for instance, to dismiss someone contemptuously, and yet it is not necessarily cruel, but is definitely exploitative, to con someone out of $150.
A former client of mine, around 1994, shot-up a bunch of kids at a swimming pool with a semi-automatic weapon. (For my own pathetic ego, I was grateful he waited until about two years after I last saw him.) He’d been dually diagnosed as a psychopath and paranoid schizophrenic. Was he evil? I don’t think so, although I appreciate that those kids, and their families, might have thought so.
In any case, I think he was more paranoid than evil, although he was certainly cruel. I also think that he believed that those kids were evil.
So, in this case, which is not hypothetical, I’d suggest that my ex-client was cruel, but not necessarily evil, or for that matter, even exploitative.
How about a Bernie Madoff? Is Bernie Madoff evil? I don’t think so. Yet he may very well be a sociopath and most certainly was heinously exploitative. Was he cruel? I don’t think so, again. I don’t think it was Madoff’s intention to inflict suffering on anyone. That wasn’t his primary motive to do what he did, despite the devastating impact of his greed and deception.
Regarding cruelty: for me, to be cruel implies, and requires, an intention to cruelty; it is a separate issue whether the consequences of your actions are experienced as cruel. I suspect that Madoff’s victims will describe him as cruel, if only for his indifference. However, I don’t see, from the little that is known about this case, that “cruelty” drove Madoff’s exploitation.
Now let’s tackle some big fish: How about Saddam Hussein and Adolph Hitler?
Hussein, in my view, was both cruel and exploitative, but I’m not sure I’d call him evil. Hussein’s lust was principally for power, less principally (one might argue) evil-driven. His cruelty was more a means to an end—the “end” being the consolidation and preservation of his power, by whatever ruthless means necessary. Was he a sociopath? Very possibly.
Hitler, I think, was cruel, exploitative, and evil. Hitler’s lust transcended his obsession with power; his was a lust to exterminate the Jews and other “non-desirables.” In other words, apart from his pathological lust for power, he also had a lust for cruelty and destruction. The latter meets the criteria of evil.
What do you think? Whatever it is, I’m betting it’ll change my mind?
(This article is copyrighted (c) 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)
I can understand a cold, tough minded, corporate competitive, goal driven manipulator mindset. But with my ’successful sociopaths’ (estimated at high on the PCL-R but not full on psychopathic), the craziness was in their inability to stop, after their power and control goals had been achieved. The short sightedness of their vision seemed crazy to me. They all made many enemies and knew it, even seemed to enjoy it. Personally, I couldn’t sleep at night if I had so many enemies, that much vindictiveness against me, knowing that any one of them could snap and come after me, or unify and retaliate.
Hello Quest,
I read a few of your recent posts and you do bring a sharp perspective on many of psychopathic behaviors. I spent countless hours analyzing their level of intelligence (I am a Mensa member, and a former psychopathic practice target, I did gave them hard time though).
Psychopaths have poor level of intelligence while dealing in reality, while solving a real life problem. I do believe though they do have the full intellectual powers available to them when they deal with other person’s brain.
The following example illustrate what I mean:
I am talking over the phone to a former psychopathic coworker of mine, and we are discussing the current economic situation, and I mention to him that there will be inflation of about 15% in the US this year, because this is the easiest way for the government to lower the unemployment and jump start the economy. And his answer is: :” Oh Yeah, I expect the same, but ………” He made an impression on me that what I told him was clear to him. The reasons for the inversely proportional ratio of unemployment and inflation are actually quite complex (and this is the easy way out for the government, does not require any hard work!) , few people will understand it, yet he made it sound like he knew what I was talking about. (BTW there will be an inflation, I am willing to bet on it, so keeping large amount of money as US dollars on the account not a good investment right now.)
I KNOW he could not know it, he must have faked it! I first learned it on the university 8 years ago, and it was not easy to understand at all, that is if you want to really understand all the underlying reasons down to the basic economic forces of supply and demand.
Yet if I did not know my ex coworker better, he would gain a credit for having high level of intelligence to be able to understand the complex economic problem. I believe what he really well understands is how normal person thinks, but for some reason he is unable to recreate the same process of logical thinking in his brain.
The conclusion is ” When you observe a highly intelligent psychopath the chances are you are observing your own intelligence mirrored to you by a psychopath.
A P’s ’here and know’ perceptive intelligence is the best. Everybody else is downhill when it comes to self-consciousness, anxiety, nose for power, social protocols, etc.. They know from experience what all your nervous tics and body language means. And they can remember. They know about personality traits (“cut from the same cloth” was a favorite phrase of an SS I knew). Combine with being smart enough (and experienced enough) to know who and how to deceive, and they’ll fool people who are much smarter than themselves.
All of my SS’s tried very hard to appear stronger and more capable then they were. If somebody who was skeptical about them publicly challenged them, they’d simply push one of their emotional buttons to escape, then move to discredit that person publicly or behind the scenes. Otherwise, they were very good at knowing who not to challenge, who to brownnose and how to brownnose them.
I think most of the core traits are the same, and many of them present in the same manner. But I also think many of them present quite differently from others and are motivated by different things.
There is the one I write about on this blog. Then there is the one I don’t write about. He is the only one I know who was actually seen by a psychiatrist and tested. Early in that marriage a friend of mine recommended a psychiatrist she knew and I started seeing him for “marital problems”. A few months in, he asked if I thought I could get my husband to come in because he would like to meet him. Spouse agreed and went. Then went back for some testing the psychiatrist wanted to do. Psychiatrist did not ask him to continue coming to anymore sessions. Later when I went back for my own continued sessions, the psychiatrist did not say he is a sociopath or a psychopath. What he did say (directly to me) is: “I think he has no conscience.” Probably the closest I’ll ever get to knowing I was with a diagnosed psychopath, although that probably doesn’t count as an official diagnosis. Interestingly, although my spouse went, had the tests, etc. he never mentioned it again, or even ever asked about my own therapy. His attitude was more like ok, I went, hope everybody’s happy–whatever. But anyway, the two guys were very similar in many ways, yet very vastly different in many ways and certainly much different in presentation and things that were important (or not) to them.
The first one was off the chart with the in your face charm and loved lying to get over on people for no reason whatsoever. The second one did not engage in that obvious pathological lying where you could easily tell he was lying about anything and everything . The second one had much better impulse control, wasn’t particularly charming, although he could be at times, nor was he “gabby” like some of them. He presented more as the strong, silent, good looking type. But when he did lose control, it was sudden, unenexpected, and close to deadly. He almost shot me one time with a magnum 357 over something MINOR and believe me it was sudden and unenexpected, with me having no clue he was even angry, much less angry enough to want to shoot me.
He had a good job where he got to move about alot in the company doing different things and it was with a company that was the highest paying in the area. Money was very important to him and he kept that same job for 20 years.
Early in the marriage he had a gambling problem, but he quit that on his own just as suddenly as he started it (after he lost a ton of money–several thousand–on one football game). He did have an drinking problem like the other one-drank a 6 pack or more each and every day–but he drank slow and did not get “drunk” and he wasn’t a “crazy” or a “mean” drunk, nor was he given to off the wall behavior when he drank. He was also much more of a “whatever” type of guy.
Occasionally a minor thing would be important to him and he would turn into a control freak, but overall, I could have painted the entire house purple, gone shopping every day, and died my hair pink and I doubt he would have said a word. He was the easiest man I ever met as far as pleasing when it came to meals–this man would eat anything. He really could have cared less about most things, except for money and having nice things, and whatever I did was A ok with him as long as we had a good lifestyle (I had a well paying job too at the time), he had his beer, I didn’t mind if he watched each and every football game that came on the tube, and I didn’t demand much attention.
He was mid 30’s when I met him. I’m pretty sure he screwed around, but I never actually caught him at it, although there were certainly signs (especially when I look back). I know he screwed around on his former wife, said it wasn’t the sex, it was the THRILL of sneaking around. It was also everyone else’s fault she divorced him because “If people had minded their own damn business and kept their mouthes shut, we’d still be married..” Of course, I didn’t know that at the time I married him, but naturally at the time he got around to telling me he also assured me he had learned his lesson and it was something he would never do again. We had a few blazing rows through the years, which he thoroughly enjoyed and said as much as he said he liked the way I “mixed it with him”, but he never called me vulgar names like whore or slut or bitch either, like the other one did. As long as he was allowed to do exactly what he wanted to do, which was primarily watch every sport that came on tv, go fishing, and lounge around our pool, he was a happy camper.
He did all the stereotypical men things around the place like mowing the yard and taking out the trash, but hell could have frozen over before he would have cooked or washed a dish. He also refuesed to take his kids home from visitation if there was a football game on–my job.
Early in the relationship (when I wanted to cuddle one night) he told me very matter of factly: “You’ll find I’m not a very affectionate guy. I just learned that you have to act certain ways in life to get what you want.” Also thru the years when he would behave coldly in regards to something or to somebody he would make the comment about himself, “I’m hard hearted.” I think he knew he was different, but I don’t think he thought of himself as a sociopath or psychopath at all. I think his comments about himself sums up the psychopath and their attitude pretty well regardless of their presentation or what particular thing motivates them.
PETERD .You don’t have to be a psychopath to NOT understand the current economic crisis . In fact I would theorize that it was a psychopath that invented the banking system in the first place . The way the banking system is set up at the moment is that money is borrowed into existance . This money is loaned to people against the increasing value of what ever assets they may have . In this case the system requires inflation to function . At the moment asset values are dropping so the average person does not have any spare equity to borrow against . The stupid politicians keep saying that we have to get back to the banks loaning money to people , in otherwords , loaning more money into existance . Well that might be fine but there is a catch . THE INTEREST DOES NOT GET PRINTED . Once everyone is up to their eyeballs in dept there is not enough money in the system to pay back the principle plus the interest , because the INTEREST HAS NEVER BEEN PRINTED . At a certain time the whole system collapses which is what is happening now . The government can get the Fed to print as much money as they like and give it to the banks , excuse me I mean loan it to the banks …ha ha LOL , but the banks cannot loan that money to anyone , as in a deflationary environment nobody is a good credit risk as long as assets are dropping in value . You are right I suppose that at a certain time inflation will return but first the banks have to figure out how to get all that money out of their vaults and into the economy . At the moment it would appear that they do not have a clue . In the mean time the average guy is till in to much dept and deflation continues and the forclosure rate continues upwards . The whole banking system is actually psychopathic in nature in that it does not make logical sense . When I say this , I mean it is impossible for everyone to pay back their loans plus the interest because THE INTEREST HAS NEVER BEEN PRINTED . Every time I listen to Obama talk I get the feeling He does not understand this whole concept . I guess I may have gotten a little off topic there . sorry about that
And when we divorced, it was absolutely the easiest, most amicable split up I have ever had. I listed all assets on a piece of paper, divided it up and asked him if he thought that was fair. Yep, fine. We got the divorce–no problems whatsoever. From what I understand his previous divorce went the same way. But the ex-wive decided (after the divorce) that she really didn’t want to sell their house (that he had prior to their marriage) as she felt she coulnd’t find another one she could afford and wanted to keep living there. So, he agreed to the change–no problem–until their kid got of age. He said he figured it was like money in the bank anyhow that he would get someday, so why hassle over it.
Wow, I have recently encountered an evil woman on my reptile site. I don’t really have any other word for her. She seems out to destroy me. We had an argument over a broken agreement she made with me last fall. She is a local vendor. I long since released the anger toward her and do not wish her any harm. But apparently she is trying to destroy me on the reptile site out of the blue, sending me harassing emails and just monopolizing the site with her posts. It feels very toxic to me. I am by nature a very lighthearted person and will gladly shake hands and forget the disagreement at the drop of a hat. I feel so angry and manipulated by her. I let my guard down with her for a second, thinking that we were both adults and she was extending an olive branch. Boy was I wrong!
She first sent me a private message apologizing that I’m losing my home (there is a thread about it there). So I let my guard down and thanked her for her message. Then her next private message was very mean and malicious, telling me that even though I have a lot of friends online, certain reptile breeders in my area consider me a bitch.
I didn’t even know how to respond to it. I know trolls like to rile you, so I just responded with humor. I said, “You mean everyone in my town hates me? Cool!!!!!! I’m famous!” or something like that. I just didn’t want to stoop to her level. But I do feel toxic from this interaction and angry and I’m having a hard time just letting it go. Any suggestions?
Star, I think you handled it beautifully because you diffused her uncalled for comment and didn’t let it show that it got to you.–Jen
Star… couple of suggestions.
1. Tell her you dont parktake in emailing with an E-Evil Woman…
2. Thank her for her comments, and tell her if she doesnt have anything nice to say, please refrain from contacting you and that you hope peace and light will hopefully find her life one day.
3. My favorite one.. My ultimate favorite one Ive learned. To get the best revenge… to really piss her off… and get her goat. Two words.
NO CONTACT.. NO RESPONSE. NADA… ZILCH…ZERO…. and then laugh your a@.......@ off all the way to your reptile site, continuing your conversations with everyone else…never mentioning her or her email or ANYTHING ABOUT HER = YOU WIN!!!!!
ok.. the reasons for NC…. are not to seek revenge or piss her off or get her goat….Its so you can see that you recognized the red flags and you took appropriate action…stopped. changed direction..no contact. (But it also helps that its a grand slam as its the best revenge, pisses her off and gets her goat! 🙂