Like many of you, I am very grateful for a few friends who acted as sounding boards as I processed my experience with a sociopath. The best talks have been with my exercise partner who is also a former Federal agent. About 2 years ago on one of our walks we discussed what it must be like to be inside the skin of a sociopath. Both of us tried to imagine what their inner world is like.
On that walk we both connected with ourselves and each other in a way we hadn’t before. The connection happened as we reflected on what it must be like to live a life without love. I realized that my sense of myself as a continuous person over time is based on the people I love and the values I have a passion for. Everywhere I go I carry with me a sense of duty, love and connection to my children and other loved ones. My dearest ones are always inside me. The fulfilling of duty to them gives life purpose and direction.
According to Dr. Cleckley, the first psychiatrist to really study sociopaths, the disorder produces an incapacity for love that is “complete”. Furthermore Dr. Cleckley states in his book, The Mask of Sanity that even those who have an “incomplete manifestation” of the disorder completely lack the capacity for love.
Without love to give themselves a sense of feeling and purpose, sociopaths are prone to boredom. They have to keep filling their lives with excitement and also abuse substances to fill the gap.
Sociopaths live in the moment because they lack the loving human connections that give everyone else a sense of continuity of person and purpose.
Sociopaths also have no true self because instead of being based on loving connections, their sense of themselves is based on who they can dominate in the moment. If yesterday they had to assume a certain identity to get over on person A, today they may have to assume another identity to get over on person B. This assumption of identities is not a problem for them because the goal is not loving or meaningful connectedness. The goal is the pleasure of the get over. They will become what they must to accomplish that goal.
I’ve been struggling over whether or not to include a section on “identity” in my next book. I am trying not to get too psychologically technical. But it might be helpful for victims and family members to reflect on identity and understand why sociopaths lack a stable sense of self. I am interested in your thoughts about that.
Since some of you indicated you wanted me to tackle an explanation of “borderline personality”. I’ve been reading on the issue of identity. On page 213 of “Borderline Conditions and Pathological Narcissism” psychoanalyst Dr. Otto Kernberg says the following:
The normal integrated self and its related integrated conceptions of others guarantee a sense of continuity throughout time and under varying circumstances. They also guarantee a sense of belonging to a network of human relations that makes life meaningful, and they guarantee the ordinary “self feeling” we take for granted”¦
He also says that absent loving connections:
”¦ pathological subjective experiences of a painful and disturbing nature develop. Among these experiences predominates a sense of emptiness and futility of life, chronic restlessness and boredom..In typical cases, it is as if this emptiness were their basic modality of subjective experience from which they attempt to escape by engagement in many activities or in frantic social interactions, by the ingestion of drugs or alcohol or by attempts to obtain instinctual gratifications through sex, aggression, food or compulsive activities”¦
I hope you will spend what is left of summer reflecting on your own loving connections. As you contemplate the meaning of these connections and their importance to your sense of who you are, consider your own “self-feeling”. Realize that you have yourself to give yourself in intimacy to another either friend, family or lover, while the sociopath you know has nothing to give anyone.
I’d add anxious for the next kick. They are hollow. I mean of course they are, no one can do what they do and possess a soul.
I have seen two at play, from a distance now, for awhile and it is truly strange to see how they just morph into whatever suits the situation. And how their personality disorder (evilness) is physically manifested in their gait, speech and behavior.
I swear I think I can spot one pretty quick now given some history and exposure to their wiles. I don’t think anyone on here with the education we have recvd. here and experientially would fail to see through one now.
This entry is interesting becuase what it describes is almost a paper-doll. How many would now confuse a paper-doll for human?
But they did lure us before, I think it’s because we could not imagine and wanted so to believe.
Despite all my education, despite all the blogs I’ve read, and despite my theoretical knowledge, I am not so sure I’d be able to spot the red flags. There are over 60(? not sure, but the number came to me and I can look it up if you insist ) types of borderline personality disorder traits. I am not sure how many “types” of psychopaths there are. Some are so keen on their environment, they can hide pretty easily. Holywatersalt, how is this: a man you are with asks you to wait while he pushes a stranger’s car out of a ditch. He feeds wild birds, runs over to help with groceries, puts gas in your car, shares your passion for helping others, educates you on his beliefs about religion and G-d. Irons your clothes, makes your breakfast, encourages you to visit with your friends, reminds you to take care of your health, values your opinion and brings you flowers. Sounds pretty good, doesn’t it?
Meet my P. Upon closer consideration, you learn that the birds only got fed once, that the clothes only got ironed when you were watching, that the groceries were brought in while a neighbor was looking on, that as soon as you return from a visit with a friend, you’d come upon an ice cold greeting and quickly realize that the friend was an ass, and did all the things wrong and did not care for you any, while he P, was there, minding his own business, looking after “your interests” while also making sure that you are friend-less and totally clue-less about the “Jakyl and Hyde” life he’s having. Oh, and medical care? “you’ll be just fine, it isn’t like AIDS (after sharing an STD)
Should I now be looking for a crude angry dude that displays his character rather than hide it? because everyone I meet who is nice, triggers all sorts of red flags. I am especially ticked off by ANY complements and any attention seeking.
That life “in the moment” was what we, the victims, captured. Then, we created a belief system to sustain that moment. “BUT HE DID FEED THE BIRDS”… – well, now I have to realize that although the birds got fed once, I got *&$^*# over it each and every time. I filled in the blanks that in my mind were sustainable and believable based on what I once observed. He did not even try to fit the “Mold” he created anymore. It was there, and I worked very hard on filling it for him: when I put the gas in the car, when I dragged the groceries, when I ironed the clothes and worked to bring money home.
Yes, there’s tons of signs but only a few that stand out scream, like: charm, need for power and control, lack of empathy.
Looking back I can see so much I IGNORED, didn’t want to believe.
Heck, the multiple marriages was ONE huge clue couple that with inappropriate remarks from the start….that’s enough to run.
Victims tend to tolerate a lot, when others leave- we stay.
I am running a survey right now, and already see patterns in victims.
It’s here:
http://www.eSurveysPro.com/Survey.aspx?id=30d0cae9-b0c4-4858-b434-62a0961d3e54
Just took your survey. Hopes it helps us all.
I only saw the nice giving spirit who has been through a lot and finally met his true match. The two of us shared so much in common, we could talk for hours on end. (it was me sharing with me, I should have just gotten a mirror)
Dear PINow,
I hear your pain, sweetie! And yes, we DO “fill in the blanks” like a life-long game of WHEEL OF FORTUNE.
We fill in “relation-shi-P” when it should be relation-shi-T” (thanks for who ever posted that first, it is GREAT!!!)
We see one or two “good things” and then we assign a “coda” to him as ALL good, but we see 100 bad things and we don’t change the “coda.”
Some one months ago posted an analogy that went like this, and I loved it. “He was a GREAT guy, loving and caring, and good, EXCEPT WHEN HE WAS ROBBING BANKS.” Yea, RIGHT!!! NOT!!!
All of us make mistakes and “act out” to some degree from time to time in ways we shouldn’t, but when someone makes a PATTERN of BAD BEHAVIOR, etc. RED FLAG TIME!!!!
It is difficult even now, as good a “P-DAR” as I have now, for me to catch one on the fly every time. I am sure there are still a few lurking out there in the edges of my relationships that I hven’t yet recognized, but what I DO DO is I catagorize people by levels of TRUST.
Inside my INNERMOST CIRCLE are my sons and a few very close friends. 99.99999% trust for these people. Everything I am or have is theirs for the asking. There isn’t anyting about me that they don’t know, or that I wouldn’t tell them. They are and have been supportive of me.
Just outside of that, but still close is my INNER Circle, and those people are people that I pretty well trust, they have enver betrayed me, told a lie that I have caught them in, they have been honest with me and appear to be honest with others, and I have observed them for quite some time. NONE of these are NEW acquaintences. I might loan them a hundred bucks if the story was good. If they paid it back they would remain in this circle. If not, they are OUT forever. I also might GIVE them a hundred bucks if they were in need. I might even loan them a larger amount if I was assured of collateral. I would help them out in any way I could if the NEED was real. They know quite a bit about me, but there are some things I might not feel comfortable telling them. I would give them a key to my house and exchange dog sitting chores with them.
MODERATE CIRCLE OF TRUST…these are people that I know fairly causally, and have not observed any bad behavior but haven’t been around them a lot, so haven’t had a great deal of opportunity to observe them under a varied number of times. So far all I have seen is positive. I wouldn’t loan them money though of any consequence. I might GIVE them something if they needed it and I could spare it. They know the “outer” me, not my innermost feelings, emotions or fears. I would not give them a key to my house.
OUTER CIRCLE: this is where NEW oeople go, I don’t distrust them, but don’t trust them either. I watch them pretty carefully for signs of any dishonesty with me or others, or any other red flags. They may have potential to become closer friends, but it will take time and caution before I will trust them more. I wouldn’t loan them a dime or leave them in my house if I wasn’t there.
CIRCLE OF DISTRUST: This is the purgatory of my life for those that have shown RED FLAGS or abusive behavior, have lied to me or to others, stolen, shown dishonest, abusive behavior to anyone or any thing, etc. There is NO getting out of this purgatory as far as I am concerned, there is no amount of “fake repentence” or whining or crying that will EVER make me trust these people.
Under certain circumsances I may have to interact with them, but it will be “cool politeness” and I will never SEEK to be around them.
No contact for all that it is remotely possible for me to be NC with. ANY ONE at ANY LEVEL of trust can SINK to the OUTER LIMITS by telling a lie or showing any kind of abusive or manipulative behavior. In fact, several people that I rated as “good friends” in the past have entered this level this past year and I do not grieve for their loss any more. I am glad they are GONE.
This is a new way of thinking for me, but one I am conceptualizing into a “code of life” for me. I set limits with people and expect them to RESPECT ME. Even my sons know the boundaries I have set, and they respect those boundaries. I respect theirs. We treat each other with respect and love and care. We do things for and with each other because we CARE about each other. But even my sons don’t get a “free ride” on my back—they put their shoulder into harness and we PULL TOGETHER.
Wow, Oxy, you sure put a lot of thought into this. I am by nature a very trusting person. I treat others as I want to be treated, and I am very forgiving (just as I want to be forgiven). So, that’s made me a prime target for use, abuse, and misuse. Generally, I’ve written the patty little things off, realizing that some will take the opportunities presented to them. I sigh and go on with my life, because I generally am in a position of power and hope that “they” perhaps, will let others slide when others need help. So, I am understanding and kind, though I can be harsh and direct too, when transgressed at a personal level. What was done unto me was an ultimate betrayal. Someone told me here, that I “slept with an enemy”. I did. And – yet, I feel so vulnerable still,not able to understand who is to be trusted and who is not. I don’t want to kill within me my ability to trust others, but I do seek to protect my spirit, that will never be the same.
Dear PINow,
The problem with being “caring” and “giving” people and “doing unto others as you would they do unto you” is that WE TAKE IT TO EXCESS.
I was raised a “Christian” by my egg donor who PRETENDED to be a Christian, but sitting in a church pew didn’t make her a christian any more than it would have made her a hen if she sat in the chicken house. Christianity (or any other religion or spiritual belief system is an INNER FEELING, NOT an exterior fake display.
I never felt comfortable with HER definition of “forgiveness” though she “backed it up with the Bible” but just like anything, the BIBLE CAN BE TWISTED by taking things out of context and “prove” anything….doesn’t make it right though.
I started discussing forgiveness, and then realized HER DEFINITION and mine were NOT the same, then I began to investigate what other TWISTED DEFINITONS I ahd absorbed from her without EVER questioning them.
I realized that forgiveness ( ACCORDING to my interpretation of the Bible NOW) means to get the BITTERNESS out of your heart toward them. jesus said “let not the sun go down upon your wrath.” Well, I thought wrath=angry, but it is more than just MAD, it is wishing vengence and hatred, it is cultivated and held inside like a cancer.
Jesus was ANGRY, and there is no sin in being angry for good cause, He said “be ye angry and sin not.” So just being angry isn’t a bad thing, but acting a fool BECAUSE you are angry may be.
Forgive=get the bitterness out of your heart, get the wrath out of your soul, but it does NOT mean ‘PRETEND IT NEVER HAPPENED AND TRUST THEM AGAIN.”\
Read the story of Joseph whose brothers were going to kill him because they were jealous and then sold him instead. He had FORGIVEN his brothers when they showed up 20+ years later, but he still DIDN’T TRUST THEM until he had TESTED them and saw what kind of men they had become, that they were truly sorry for the pain they had caused their father by pretending to find his coat covered in blood and told their father a wild animal must ahve kileld him. They were no longer those jealous nasty men, but had now become willing to sacrifice their own lives to save their brother Benjamin in order not to grieve their father more. THEN and ONLY then did Joseph reveal himself as their brother.
Trust should not be GIVEN in my opinion, but EARNED. Trusting everyone until they HURT you is asking, in my opinion, to be duped and taken in by a psychopath, that is what got me in trouble to start with, I WANTED TO BELIEVE GOOD ABOUT PEOPLE and I excused RED FLAGS to my own detriment. Yes, indeed I have THOUGHT LONG AND HARD, examined MY PART in this, what made me VULNERABLE. WHAT MADE ME ALLOW this? I was so afraid of hurting someone’s feelings, and had been told (and belileved) if I couldn’t “‘PRETEND IT NEVER HAPPENED” even though these people didn’t show any sign of repentence and repeated their behavior over and over, that I would go to hell. But my religious beliefs have changed, I am now a Christian and have a loving spiritual father, rather than a psychopathic old man I dare not offend or he will zap me to hell.
I have thought about the red flags as well, and actually set down and thought about my friends and others in my life, and divided the sheep from the goats as the Bible would say. Like Santa Claus too, I know whose been good adn I know whose been bad and I am not bringing my GIFTS of trust and friendship to those who have been “bad.”
There is a lot of good wisdom in how to be a better person in the Bible even for people who are non-believers. so much about how people should treat each other. How we should treat OURSELVES. NO where however does it postulate we should allow ourselves to be abused. Even Jesus and St. Paul advised that if you try to talk to a “brother” and he will not listen, get witnesses and if that doesn’t work, go to the church (community) and if that doesn’t work, NO CONTACT, (in effect) it actually says treat them like a heathern and don’t even eat with them. If that iisn’t advising NO CONTACT I don’t know what is!
EAch of us have our own views of scripture or philosophy and I am not trying to foist mine on you, but every religion that I know of, the sacred writings advise care and compassion, not brutality. None of them, however, advise us to sit still for abuse if we can avoid it—at the very least RUN and HIDE.
I believe forgiveness is to “give up” the hatred, resentment, bitterness and gruge one has against the perpetrator. To be capable of really doing this is a huge task when the abuse is shocking. Understanding why they did it has nothing to do with forgiveness. Being able to LET GO AS IF IT NEVER HAPPENED TO YOU (WHILST REMAINING NO CONTACT IF IT IS A CLUSTER B) and taking responsibility for your part in it and then DOING SOMETHING ABOUT THAT PART OF YOU SO IT DOESN’T HAPPEN AGAIN is true FORGIVENESS. To “give for”, to “let go” all of this must be embraced and really practised fully before one can say they have forgiven.
I have been abused all my life. I used to believe I had forgiven the abusers because:
I believed that the reason they were like they were, was because they had been abused (usually as a child) like I had. WRONG!!
I never abused my 3 children. Not by omission or commission. One of my children is a total psychopath by genetics. The other one I still don’t know if he is a cluster B or not. The youngest escaped.
MY second last sociopath/p partner took everything I owned except my children. I mean everything physically and metaphorically including my dignity, sanity and desire to live. I was as good as dead.
Five years later when I had begun my recovery and was reading Victor Frankles “Mans search for Meaning” in walked the next sociopath/psychopath partner.
He was everything PINOW described in her post at the top of the page. He was quoting out of Victors book to me three times a day, bringing flowers, he couldn’t do enough for me. He was “too good to be true’. He “understood me totally” and “EXACTLY THE SAME THING HAD HAPPENED TO HIM IN HIS LAST RELATIONSHIP”. I fell for it hook line and sinker. EVEN after 50 years of the same type of abuse. Simply because i did not have the knowledge I now have found at LF.
Have I forgiven?
No, not all of them and certainly not myself.
The ones I have forgiven are the ones that are incapable of hurting me anymore, whether i were to see them or not. It is like seeing an aligator slithering past, throw it some bait in the opposite direction or ignore it and it slides on without noticing me and i remain unmoved by it.
But the ones that are still hurting me now (by the disgusting living arrangements i now have to endure, the “Victor Frankl”), no I have not forgiven them. I have not forgiven my parents because, even though i have no contact with them, they are still hurting me through my youngest son and oldest daughter.
I have not forgiven many of them because they are still out there murdering and destroying people and there is nothing (at this stage) that I can do about it.
But I try to forgive them. I take responsibility for my part in it. I protect myself from them. I go no contact and watch for red flags.
But I havn’t let go to the point where I never think about it as if it never happened…yet.
I have changed. I think I feel more equipped to deal with the real world, actually less afraid than ever (He forced me into travelling alone, tracking him down, talking with solicitor, talking to and visiting his family and neighbours, driving alone in a strange country, not having the language, putting up with hostile receptions, handling business, negotiating deals) I have grown up because of what he put me through…and feel I could handle quite complex and dubious situations easily because he forced me to go with my gut in the end and once I did everything was bang on….so much is coming my way in the way of job offers, friends and while I couldn’t date anyone I do feel incredibly strong because of him, yes was the catalyst for growth…so I thank him for that, he has not changed at all…I had no impact on him whatsoever!!!
Dear Tilly,
It is hard to forgive WHILE it is happening…that is why NC is so good because it keeps us from getting FRESH injuries.
In your case you are still feeling fresh injures from your P-DNA donors and your P-daughter and them together attacking your one good and caring son. I am feeling FRESH attacks because my egg donor is sending money to my attacker so he can have more resources.
I can’t say I have 100% (it comes back at times and I have to fight it down) let go of the past abuse (by way of forgiveness) but I do think I am well on the way to it, getting that bitterness out of my heart and the wrath (long-term ugly vengeful anger) I just ahve to guard myself so it wont’ come back into “full flower.”
Forgiving MYSELF was the hardest part for me Tilly, so back and do a search for the article I wrote here on LF on that. I think it is titled “Forgiving ourselves for being human.”
It was always easier to forgive others (pretend it didn’t happen) than to forgive myself. Learning to forgive myself was so hard, but it turned a corner for me in my healing that had been “dammed up” behind it.
Stayingsane, the abuse experience CAN be a catalyst for growth for sure, or it can be the end of us, it is up to us what it becomes in the end. I think that LF has helped these experiences for me become that catalyst for MY OWN GOOD. I thank God for donna and this site! And for all of you!!!!