I love my wikipedia. I learn a lot I didn’t know and I refine my thinking by finding fault too. (The problem is knowing what is worth learning and what needs unlearning!)
Consider the wikipedia definition of evil:
Evil is generally defined as any activity which takes advantage of another person for one’s own benefit….(In contrast, good is helping others, even sometimes self-sacrificially; see saint, sainthood.)
There’s something dodgy about the form of this definition and also something very familiar about its implications. For one thing, it fits with the the lable ‘anti-social’ which refers to behaviour which has ill effects, but good intentions – “well, in his culture that behaviour is normal”. Whatever happened to ill intent, though? (For another thing, what’s the counterpart to sainthood?)
According to this view all employers are evil because they necessarily pay their employees less than they earn (‘necessarily’ because otherwise there would be no profit).
The definition attempts to define evil by contrasting it with good. So far so, um, good. But then it weighs them up wrongly, and we are left with a picture of evil that is indistinguishable from graspingness and greed. According to this view evil might have ill effects on the other, but that is not the intention; its primary intention is to gain advantage.
This is a fine example of how thinking about evil can go askew. (And, I suspect, thinking about good too.)
By re-balancing the wording of the above definition another meaning of evil becomes clear.
If good is helping another (possibly involving self-sacrifice) then it follows that evil is harming another (possibly involving self-benefit).
This is all the difference in the world. Now we can see the true intention of evil – it is to do harm. Evil is only secondarily about want, appetite, greed, jealousy; it’s true nature is malevolence, envy, cruelty, viciousness. Indeed, for evil the getting of things is happily foregone if what is primary can be achieved: power over another.
What say you?
DEar Jane,
Yes, we try to be “fair” and “nice” but when you try to behave that way with them, you only get blindsided…it isn’t possible to treat them fairly, they keep changing the rules. The only thing we can do is to protect ourselves and not give them the ammunition to shoot at us with. Information about our feelings, our thoughts and our intentions is just that ammunition.
My “rule” now is NO INFORMATION to the Ps. Let THEM wonder what I am up to, why do I “owe” it to them to let them know what I intend to do…they don’t respect boundaries so if you set one with the consequences, “You do this, then I will do that” THEY are forewarned, so now I just don’t tell them anything. I do my best to keep others that MIGHT TELL THEM anything from knowing anything either.
It stilll amazes me that I gave away so much critical information to the Ps—it was only when I was in dire straights that I started being “sneaky”—and it paid off handsomely, they didn’t even know I was gone until I was safely away with my imporatant papers, and other things and my dogs—they had no idea when I left or where I went I was just GONE. Disappeared like the FOG I was in before.
Sure it is human nature to want to say “I”m divorcing you you sob” but it is better and smarter to just DO it and not let them even know you are leaving before you have your ducks in a row.
MY X-DIL-P pretended to be wanting to “reconcile” with my son C after he caught her and the Trojan Horse P having an affiar..she had him snookered for almost a week while she got money together, rented a storage unitl etc. and made her plans–bought a gun for her BF the TH-P and figured how they would make my son’s murder look like “self defense”–thank God it didn’t workk out that way, and she and the TH-P went to jail, but my son didn’t play his cards close to his chest, he didn’t realize he was dealing with a couple of Ps.
Any person who does something and REFUSES to give a SINCERE apology (and 99.9% of the time your gut tells you which is sincere and which not) is out of my life…and any liar, with or without an apology is OUT. I have raised the bar for the moral quality of the people I let even remotely close to me. Not because I am so “holy” and “without sin” but because being around people who lie even once to me or deceive others isn’t a “paying proposition” in the long run.
OXDrover,
You wrote:
-I have raised the bar for the moral quality of the people I let even remotely close to me.-
Good for you . . I am at the same place. There are two wise sayings that I try to live by. They are:
-STAY AWAY FROM FALSEHOOD-
and
-A HALF A TRUTH, IS A WHOLE LIE-
Dear Free,
I have forgiven my mother a long time ago…I guess I choose not to engage in my family anymore because it is too disfunctional for me. My mother is in her 80’s and feeble….she is the matriarch of the entire family…including cousins…etc. She established this role a long time ago…it has to do with perceived power…my mother plays the game of secrecy between each one of us and herself….I still don’t understand that…
What I miss and may never have, because I never had it is my mothers love….I am talking “motherly love”. And she probably never had it either….I know I gave it to my daughter….but not completely….because when my daughter wanted to be hugged….I would hug her but only for a little while….It was uncomfortable for me!
I remember when I was a child faking sleep so one of my parents would come and pick me up and put me to bed….It was the closest thing I got to a hug….and it was always my father. And we never used the words “I love you” until my one brother-in-law came into the family and started openly using them.
I look at my life as a learning experience….I know what is good and feels right….and I think most of us do. I just feel if I want to be healthy I need to stay away from disfunction when I see it….even if it is my family…maybe I won’t have very many people in life…but there are not very many people worth being around if they choose the disfunctions of their past.
Dear Trish,
Very eloquently put post…”I need to stay away from dysfunction when I see it…even if it is my family..maybe I won’t have very many people in life…but there are not very many people worth being around if they choose the dysfunctions of their past.”
My mother also chose the dysfunctional behavior from her family back ground…the enabling of the family sociopaths. It is sad, because she became a psychopath-by-proxy, assuming the role of punishing me because I didn’t allow the sociopaths to rule the family.
Sometimes we get wisdom from some odd things. I read the story in the Book of Samuel in the Bible about King David and his enabling of his psychopathic son Absalom. Even when his son went to war to try to kill him, King DAvid’s last words to his generals who went to fight Absalom were “Deal gently with the young man.” When Absalom was killed, DAvid loudly grieved and wailed for his son’s death–the very son that had been responsible for the deaths of over 40,000 men. David’s generals came to him and said “I perceive that if the young man had lived and all of us had died, you would have been well pleased.”
King David realized that what the general said was TRUE. David also realized that he was wrong in feeling that way. David repented and got up, washed his face, and thanked the people who had sacrificed so much for his kingdom.
I realized at one point that my own mother would have been “well pleased” if my P-son had gotten out of prison before she died, even if it meant that I had died at his hand. She isn’t a psychopath, she has a conscience, she has just twisted it, she has become such a toxic enabler that she can’t see out of the P-FOG my P-son puts off. She actually believes it is her duty to punish me for “persecuting” him, wanting him to stay in prison.
The night I told her the story of King david and his son, I actually did hate her that night…but now, I just pity her. Unlike King David, she refuses to see the truth and to repent. She can’t face the admission of her own dysfunctional life. It would overwhelm her, but I can’t heal as long as I have a relationship with her on a day to day basis. I do speak to her for BUSINESS reasons only, but confine our conversations to that and that alone. I too wanted a mother’s love, I spent my life trying to please her, but I no longer feel the need to please her or try to twist reality to fit her dysfunction and make it seem “real”–I no longer hate her, I pity her. Her own dysfunction has drive away the ones who did love her, and all she is left with is the P-grandson still trying to get her to send money. She is so alone. I am her only child. My children are her only grandchildren, and neither of my remaining children have anything to do with her unless it is just “business.” They also feel pity for her, but no longer want to be around her. How sad it is that these “family roles” we are assigned continue generation after generation. But in our family–they STOP HERE, STOP NOW. I will no longer participate in my assigned role as “family enabler” for the Ps. When she dies, that role dies.
My sons and I do say “I love you” frequently and we hug a LOT…each other and our friends. I am proud that my two sons are GOOD men. NOt perfect, but caring and loving and trustworthy. They too have learned from this P-experience.
Dear OxDrover,
I don’t know all the answers…I just know what I can’t go back to….because I can not take it anymore. If everyone would just look at themselves and make the changes….according to the 7 deadly sins….we would all have a much better life. Lust…glutony…greed….sloth….wrath….envy….pride.
Trish, I sure don’t know “all the answers” either, I’m actually still formulating the QUESTIONS. LOL But you are so right, the “seven deadly sins” covers 99.9999999% of all the evil in the world.
“Now we can see the true intention of evil – it is to do harm”
If everyone in the world understood that and acted accordingly, evil people would be able to do far less harm. Evil people understand instinctively that good people don’t realize that they often do evil deeds just for the sheer joy of it, and will go to mindbogging lengths to enhance that joy by continually searching out new evil to perpetrate. When we see someone spreading vicious lies about a person, launching constant personal attacks, etc, we SHOULD leap forward and say “Stop that, you evil person!!” but in fact we usually think that the victim somehow deserves it, and/or tell ourselves it’s no big deal or not our business… which is just what the evil ones count on, so that they can get away with it unscathed.
When YOU see evil in action, do you leap to the victim’s defense, or do you add to their misery by being an audience to their suffering and/or encourage the evildoer by giving THEM an audience?
I was reading the Gospel last night and the Lord’s “Sermon on the Mount” in particular.
“Blessed are the gentle (meak,humble) for they shall inherit the earth”
That’s us! All of us on this website, in the world who are defiant, repulsed, sickened by evil are the blessed. Who yearn to be free from the tyranny of evil that pervades our lives. What IS the purpose of evil? The ONLY purpose for evil is to pervert, twist, and ultimately TRY to destroy that which is good, honest, true, real, and righteous. Why does evil wish to end that which is good? Because of fear. Evil fears the righteous with a seething hatred, with an all consuming drive to annihilate that which it can never, ever be. Evil will use every skill, tool, trick of the trade to further it’s dastardly pursuit.
This is our test. We are the blessed gentle so we will ALWAYS be targets of evil. Whether it be sneaky, insidiously deceptive or outright vicious, callous, cruel, evil will try to work it’s purpose. I believe OUR purpose on this big, beautiful planet is to never, ever, bow to, bend to evil in all it’s various disguises designed to fool us, hurt us, destroy us. Yes, we will stumble, fall down, cry out in pain from the evil perpetrated against us, but if we’re still breathing, our heart’s still fiercely beating, our eyes WIDE open, we can make the choice, the decision, to stand up, brush all the grit, dirt, filth from our psyches and KEEP ON MOVING FORWARD with our heads up high, our shoulders straight, our hearts fairly bursting with radiant light, our minds sharp and alert, and living life with the All Loving, All caring Holy Spirit firmly planted in our souls….Evil can take a short walk off a long pier for all I give a damn!
Eternal Student—good points.
Free, yes it does take courage. Years ago a woman was killed in plain view of I think it was 24 or 34 people on the streets of Chicago (I think it was) her Name was Kitty Genovese (spelling may be incorrect) and all these people watched her stabbed to death over quite a large part of an hour, and they shut their windows so they would not hear her scream for help. NOT ONE person came to her aid.
After this made the national news, there were soeme sociological and psychological studies made about WHY all thes epeople did NOTHING to help the woman, not even call the cops.
Apparently the “results” of the study that if you were walking down the street and a crazy knife weilding person attacked you and there were 1 or 2 guys there they would help you or at least call the police, but if there were 20 each one would wait for the other one to make the first move so no one would actually DO anything. Interesting points.
“Remember, when SECONDS count, the cops are only MINUTES AWAY.”
In my state and in many other states “concealed carry permits” are issued to citizens who have A) passed an FBI back ground check and B) passed a shooting and legal course so that they are able to legally carry concealed fire arms as they move about their daily routines (with some places that are off limits, like post office and other federal buildsings) There are those that are totally AGAINST this, and against fire arms of any kind, but the men and women who have “carry permits” are not crazed “cowboys” out to shoot someone, but once in a while they save some folks and I think if more criminals thought about there being more and more people who are armed it might make a difference.
I carry, and over the 40+ years I have carried a pistol, it has “saved my bacon” three times, once when some tried to rob the store I worked at at night during college, once broken down at night on an interstate in the days before cell phones, and the third time camping in the wilderness with my two young sons in Wyoming. All three times were HUMAN predators, not animals. I have never shot at anyone, and only twice did I point it at someone, but I WAS prepared to shoot if the threat of the weapon had not been enough.
I’m not sure if I would qualify as “humble” in the definitions of the Bible, Jane, but I am NOT evil, I am not perfect, but not EVIL because I do try to do what is right and what is good. The person who GIVES THEMSELVES over to EVIL, whose heart harbors and enjoys EVIL, the psychopath, I think is responsible for 99.999999% of the trouble in this world. Even statistics do back some of this up in that 70% of the violent crimes are perpertrated by the 20% of the law breakers who are psychopaths. Not all psychopaths are criminals of course, but with a 50% divorce rate in this country now for first marriages, and 75% for second marriages—I wonder just how many of them are by people who are either “diagnosable” psychopaths or are VERY CLose to “qualifying”.
I think it was Dr. Leedom who said that in England in the “projects” that 25% of the children born there are sired by diagnosed psycopaths. (head shaking here)
I am all for helping others who have been or are victims and avoiding the p’s themselves, but sometimes it is daunting to realize that psychopaths are NOT a “rare commodity” in our society—they probably have never been a “rare commodity” in human history, maybe WE are the “odd people out” in that we do have a conscience and therefore are “less fit for survival” than the psychopaths….but, at the same time, I would not wish BEING a psychopath on anyone, it must be a miserable internal existence without empathy and love. I do suspect sometimes that they know we have “someting” that they don’t have and would like to have–but like the child born blind, aren’t sure what it is that we SEE and have.
I am sure the “definition” of evil will be debated long after this generation is gone, and I am sure that there will be more psychopaths in this world as well, and good people also. “I just wanna be one of the good guys!”
OxDrover says:
{{If a thief steals from you, but not specifically to hurt you, and the hurt he inflicts on you is a by-product of his wanting what he steals, is that just “bad” or is it “evil?”
If a thief steals from you with the PURPOSE OF IMPOVERISHING YOU, and the gain he gets is meerly a by-product of his hurting you, is he “bad” or is it “evil?”}}
Very good point.
As you say, what is good and evil may depend on your religious beliefs. But then, we aren’t really talking about good and evil, but rather about “morality.”
When talking about morality, the idea of good and evil can be very different for different people with different beliefs. That means it is subjective rather than objective. And here I use these terms in the sense that objective means “the way the Universe with its comprehensive perspective views itself” as opposed to the way an individual or even a group of individuals may view events in the universe.
It could even be said that no one ever does anything deliberately in the interests of evil, for the sake of evil, per se, but rather that everyone acts in the interests of good, _as he understands it_! But everybody understands it in a different way! As a result of these subjective views of evil, human beings inflict all kinds of suffering on others in the interests of what they consider to be good.
George Bush, killing a million Iraqis in order to “force democracy” on them is one example. Israel occupying Palestine based on the claims of their religion, and committing genocide on the Palestinian people is another example.
What we see, then, is that there is no morality common to all. We can’t even say that there is a comprehensive idea of so-called Christian morality. There are so many different interpretations of “Christian morality,” and we also can remember that some of the greatest crimes in history have been committed in the name of Christianity.
One set of moral precepts can – and often does – contradict another set. What is moral in New York may not be moral in Beijing. What is moral in Helsinki, may not be moral in Ethiopia. What is moral in Judaism, is not necessarily moral in Christianity or Islam.
Morality is more directly related to rules and laws, black and white interpretations of what is good and bad. Two very moral men from different cultures may consider each other very immoral. More than that, the more ‘moral’ a person is, the more ‘immoral’ will he think other moral people from different cultures!
The problem, as Gurdjieff enunciated it, is that we do not need morality, we need conscience since conscience is the interior connection between all normal humans (those who are not pathological).
The idea of conscience is based on a different interpretation of reality, one that does not necessarily include hard and fast rules that apply in every situation such as our culture espouses under the influence of Judao-Christian influences. Conscience is reflected in a much older system that existed among many tribes of Celts before it was overcome and destroyed by the imposition of Judao-Christianity (by force).
The destruction of Celtic culture was so complete that we know very little about their religion – we have to infer principles from rags and tatters of evidence. We do know that they celebrated their “rites” in forests and by lakes without erecting any covered temples or statues of divinities. Tacitus tells us:
{{They do not think it in keeping with the divine majesty to confine gods within walls, or to portray them in the likeness of any human countenance. Their holy places are woods and groves and they apply the names of deities to that hidden presence which is seen only by the eyes of reverence. }}
Plato had doubts about the Greek origins of Homer’s work because not only do the physical descriptions in his poems not correspond to the Greek world, but also the Homeric philosophy is very different from the mainstream Greek philosophy we know about today. The latter is based on the dualism of two opposing elements, thesis/antithesis, good/evil, life/death, body/soul, etc. This is also the perspective of the related Judao-Christian system – at least as it has come to be known in our modern world. It could be said that the early Jesus people were more in tune with the ancient Celtic system as is evidenced by their God of Mercy. But that’s before the gospel writers came on the scene and created myths. (See Burton Mack’s “A Myth of Innocence” for detailed analysis.)
Since Plato’s times, many have sought to derive “synthesis” from opposing elements, with little success.
According to Homer, the philosophy of the ancient world was that there was a third element that linked the opposing elements. Between the body and the soul, there is the spirit. Between life and death there is the transformation that is possible to the individual, between father and mother there is the child who takes the characteristics of both father and mother, and between good and evil there is the SPECIFIC SITUATION that determines which is which and what ought to be done.
In other words, there are three simultaneous determinants in any situation that make it impossible to say that any list of things is “good” or “evil” intrinsically, and that the true determinant is the situation.
In any event, the symbol of this philosophy is the triskele, representing three waves joined together.
The simultaneous existence of the third element does not mean that the notion of “good” and “evil” did not exist or was not reflected in the Celtic law. What was clear was that it was understood that nothing could be “cut and dried” in terms of law, that each situation was unique and the circumstances had to be carefully weighed.
And so, considering the Third Force, the specific situation, let me take a leap and propose that, at whatever level it occurs, any effort undertaken to use other people for some, even the best of aims (according to the view of the individual initiating the action), without their knowledge and understanding, either by producing in them faith and infatuation or by acting upon them through fear, is evil. It seems to me that depriving people of knowledge, and inducing their compliance or participation to the aims of someone with a subjective morality, under conditions of what can even be called brainwashing, is what is the essence of evil. To deceive naive people and produce in them faith, infatuation, enthusiasm, and even fanaticism for subjective aims – even if the person subjectively thinks those aims are “good” – is evil.
And that, of course, is what psychopaths do, isn’t it?