By | August 22, 2010 95 Comments

False beliefs about sociopaths are very dangerous

Donna Andersen has been a great friend to me and has done so much for victims of sociopaths. She deserves an award. The latest thing she did for me personally was to lend me her copy of The Psychopathic Mind by J. Reid Meloy. When I initially thought about reading the book it was more expensive than it is now; the price has come down quite a bit. That is good because I am going to have to buy Donna a new copy since I’ve marked up the entire book with notes about material to discuss here. My overall reaction to the book was negative to lukewarm until I got to page 318 (that I’ll discuss next week). After that page, I came to believe that on the whole this book is a great contribution to the field.

This week I want to use a quote from a judge to begin to discuss some of the myths regarding sociopaths. Here is the quote found on page 359:

“Well I tell you, the world is full of productive sociopaths. Some of them hold high public office. Some of them are lawyers. It could be that a couple of them are judges, and sociopathy by itself is not necessarily a dangerous condition. It can be productive. I think it was Clarence Darrow who commented on that”¦”

Let’s cover these numerous false assertions out of order.

  1. Sociopathy by itself is not necessarily a dangerous condition. This statement is completely, absolutely, categorically FALSE. Sociopathy/ASPD/psychopathy is always a dangerous condition. It is the most toxic personality poison and only a drop in a swimming pool of water will sicken an entire city. By definition sociopathy involves serious harm to other people and a track record of serious irresponsibility. If these characteristics are not present, the individual is not a sociopath!
  2. It can be productive. Sociopathy is never productive. Unless you measure productivity by ruined lives and the number of dead bodies left along the road. But where would the judge and possibly Clarence Darrow get the idea that sociopathy is productive? These people are confusing sociopathy (a disorder) with the power motive or dominance drive. It is this motive that is both productive in terms of leadership and harmful in terms of aggression. This motive is present in all humans to a certain degree. The aberrant unmitigated expression of the power motive that is seen in sociopathy is neither normal nor productive. Sociopaths may be productive in spite of disorder not because of disorder. See the next point.
  3. Some of them hold high public office. Some of them are lawyers. It could be that a couple of them are judges, Connecting this statement with describing sociopathy as a benign, productive condition is where the judge goes wrong. When sociopaths manage in spite of disorder to attain the power they crave, the results are disastrous for society.
  4. The world is full of productive sociopaths. This statement is partly true but this truth is not a reflection of points 1 and 2 above. As a group sociopaths are hands down losers. They die at early ages, get many more serious illnesses, and abuse substances. They usually end up losing everything and occupationally disabled. There is an appearance that the number of productive sociopaths reflects the disorder, simply because of the sheer number of sociopaths in the country. At any one point in time a given sociopath may be “successful” but that is only a snap shot. There may be a few who die before they fall but these are the extreme minority. Since there are so many sociopaths even this extreme minority may seem like a lot. If you consider the life histories of sociopaths two truths emerge. Sociopaths waste energy hurting people that could have gone into building rather than destroying. Also, the only reason they survive is that others help them. They may have power but they are by no means autonomous. This is the great irony of the disorder, antisocial individuals require a society to survive and operate!
  5. I am still trying to verify the origin of these false beliefs on the part of the legal profession stems from famous lawyer Clarence Darrow. If anyone can produce a quote, I would be grateful.

If you think about it, this judge is exemplifying a reasoning error due to lack of training applying research to practice. It is very difficult to apply group data to an individual because any one individual at any one point in time may not display all the characteristics of the group.

The message is clear. Judges and lawyers should stop rationalizing the leniency they extend to sociopaths. They should realize them for the dangerous, parasitic individuals they are. They should stop enabling them by forcing us to be with them. That “us” includes former spouses, children and society at large.

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Clarence Darrow said that? Really? I wonder how much he knew about the condition, since he died in 1938 and couldn’t have had the advantage of more modern findings.


Dr. Leedom, I think i would amend point #1: changing ‘track record of serious irresponsibility’, to ‘track record of reckless irresponsibility.’

one step


The notion that anyone in a position to make decisions about these disordered and the people they affect is not educated succinctly in what the disorder is, how dangerous it is and how devastating to the families and society is simply disgusting.

Every Law School in the country should have a requirement for a psyche course that teaches what is in FACT true about it.

Period. I vote that we boycott paying for any attorney or voting for any judge who doesn’t get it. And we work more at getting the word out.

This is beyond stupid. Beyond. Productive Sociopaths, My Butt!

Ox Drover

Personally, I think the judge that said all that is a sociopath himself, that is how they would interpret a diagnosis of ASPD if it were applied to themselves.

kim frederick

I’m with you, Oxy. That IS exactly what I was thinking when I read what the judge said about “productive sociopaths, especially when he singled out the law proffesion, as an example. “A few judges” really raised red flags for me….

I would also agree with Silvermoon, but perhaps go one step furthar, and recommend a psych eval, before we elect judges…I suppose that goes against their civil libertys, however. Sigh.


Substitute the word “sociopathy” with a word such as diabetes, Multiple Sclerosis, Lupus, or any other “physical” condition, the judge would not be out of line, or misinformed.
While any sociopath may have attained a position of authority, wealth and/or notoriety, it is not in spite of his condition, it is in the way that he manipulated it.

Ox Drover

Good point, Shana!

You know though ANY information that is not true, upon which is based critical decisions, is DANGEROUS.

“These bald tires will be okay for a few more miles of driving” BAM! A blow out going down the road that takes 5+ lives!

“I’m not too drunk to drive”—BAM! another wreck causing loss of life!

Anytime you have BAD and ERRONEOUS information on which decisions are made that have the potential to wreck lives, IT WILL WRECK LIVES.

I watched a short video article the other day about “expert” error. How people who are NOT really very good at their jobs think that they ARE EXPERTS. How being an expert in ONE field makes you think you are an expert in SEVERAL FIELDS.

I used to butt heads with my super intelligent husband who WAS an GENUINE EXPERT in several fields –but NOT IN EVERY FIELD! And just as the article predicted, he THOUGHT he was an expert in EVERY field even when he didn’t know jack diddly about it. LOL

Great Guy! Wonderful man! Super husband! But a total jerk wadd about building barbed wire fences. Didn’t know how, thought he did, and wouldn’t listen to anyone else because he was convinced it was a simple task that he could figure out. Unfortunately, like most engineers, he tried to IMPROVE ON IT, and the fences he built 8-10 years ago are falling to pieces and they should have lasted 25-30 years before they even needed repairs. Every time I drive by a fence that needs replacement, I want to scream at his ashes “See I told you so!” LOL

From my observation, many attorneys, judges, physicians, and engineers—professions that call for intelligence and education—tend to be pretty narcissistic and have the ERRONEOUS thinking direction that they know more about EVERYTHING than they do.

Fortunately, even though on some things he would NOT take direction, my husband wasn’t abusive with it, and if there was something SERIOUS I would stand toe-to-toe and fight him over the erroneous thinking–but it did make for some interesting dinner conversations over fence building and the merits of a side by side refrigerator vs an across top freezer! LOL To say NOTHING of politics and religion!


“You know though ANY information that is not true, upon which is based critical decisions, is DANGEROUS.”
Amen! And unfortunately, I’ve had a few of my own bargaining moments such as the ones you mentioned, though not with those sad, disastrous results.
Your husband sounds like he was fun and interesting to be around.
BTW, I hate my side by side, and tend to think the freezer on bottom is the most economical. 🙂 I just wish the fact that heat rises pertained to the weather (geographically) as well. La ain’t cool these days!

Ox Drover

Yea, Shana, my husband and I “fought” over that one for a month! He wanted the side by side with ice and water in the door, and I knew there WAS no freezer space in one of them, plus, what little ther was was shaped so wrong it was useless.

I finally gave in and he got one, one day a few weeks later, he came home from the market with a frozen pizza and tried to put it in the freezer, and of COURSE IT DIDN’T FIT! I stood there watching him try to figure out how to get it in and finally I couldn’t take it any more and I said “See, you SOB the side by sides are WORTHLESS!” I will never forget the LOOK ON HIS FACE as he ROLLED HIS EYES AT ME. Then we both laughed!

Yea, on a more serious note, any information we use as FACT and base our decisions on should be TRUE. I have based my decisions on a LOT OF FALSE ‘TRUTHS” OR “FACTS” that were NOT good things to base the rest of your life on.

“Always be loyal to family”
“Blood is thicker than water”
“there is good in everyone down deep”
“it takes two to fight”
“there are two (valid) sides to every story”
“the reason he is like that is he had a bad childhood”

And I am sure we could each add 10 or 12 more UNtruths to that list.

From now on I think I will try to base my life on TRUTHS rather than just “wing” it on things I at first glance think are “truths” without examining them first.


As soon as you mentioned frozen pizza, I busted out laughing. That’s why years after sacrificing other foods for the sake of a diagonally placed coveted pizza, I finally bought a chest freezer.
And oh, the wisdom that comes as a reward for having lived, is priceless.


Whoever said this, comes across as being irresponsible,clueless and dangerously stupid. I would be very suspicious of someone in a position of power (A Judge) who would come out with such twaddle if he cared much about his reputation!

But I have heard similar attitudes from ordinary folk….like Hitler was a murdering bast8rd but he built a fantastic road system…He was a great this n that…

We can be VERY blind to evil….it’s astonishing…

Ox Drover

Dear Shana,

Yea, we also bought a chest freezer, and I have TWO huge ones now! But what was so funny really about my husband wanting the side by side was he tried to make me think he wanted it for ME to “have the best” and I kept telling him, I “don’t want THE BEST, I want what I want” which BTW was only half the cost of what he wanted “FOR ME!— LOL So it was really really funny to see him try to figure out how to get the pizza inside it. I loved those “I told you so!” moments with him because he was an engineer! In fact, both my husbands were engineers and I’ve got some GREAT engineer stories to tell! LOL

This post really hits home for me, as my ex was what one would call a productive sociopath. He was a prolific earner and a consumate “dealmaker” reainmaker what have you. He was extraordianrily generous in terms of making sure his family “had it all”.

But then, (and it took many many years for me to see a clear pattern here) he would systematically destroy whatever it was we had built acquired, etc. Unravel everything and start over, new house new neighbourhood, new country, whatever. Each step of the way he became more controlling and – what I now know with a lot of research and hindsight, abusive, using his power over $$ as his tool.

Now that I have put it all together, there is no question that he was actively trying to break me down, with his gaslighting.

Here is the dilema. One of my sons has called him on his BS and has effectively gone NC. (without any coaching from me).

My other son still is in awe of his father’s abilities, and is trying to play fair and treat him like a normal person.

The ex has already played serious games with his head recently, and is using him and plans to use him for his own agenda, all the while making vast promises to him on all kinds of good things- when his next “deal” goes through.

This son has now moved back in with me and we are very close.

I have warned him and he knows I believe his father is a P, but all I can do is watch.

Wondering if anyone has any advice on how to stave of the train wreck that always occurs, when dealing with this creature. How can I help to protect my son from the mental abuse and pain that I am sure will follow his interaction with his father eventually?

Ox Drover

Dear anitasee,

I wish I could print out a SURE FIRE way for you to protect your son. Unfortunately, I think there is none….your son WANTS his father to not be a psychopath so he is doing what we all did I think and that is to minimize the symptoms of the disorder. Your son is unfortunately, I think, in denial.

Remember the OJ jury? They ignored the evidence and used EMOTIONS to find OJ “not guilty.”

I understand it must be horrible to sit by and watch someone you love be used and abused by a psychopath and not “do” something, but I don’t think there is much else you CAN do except be there to pick up the pieces. Sometimes we have to learn the best lessons the HARD WAY. I know I did. I was warned several times about Ps in my life and I did not listen, NOW I LISTEN! (((Hugs)))) and God bless you and your sons!


anitasee- With my kids, I look for any and every opportunity to point out similar behaviors and outcomes in others that mimic what their father does. Try to get the point across without blasting him outright, though I have been known to do that as well. Sometimes, I just CAN’T hold my tongue. After my son told my daughter (his half-sister) of some of the things my ex did to him, she said, “He’s my dad and I love him, but I know he’s not a good man.” That’s not to say she doesn’t treat him with respect, and that she won’t defend him when she feels I am being unfair or unChristianlike, but she knows his character. I guess that has to be enough for me. My younger daughter would go NC if she could, she really has no use for him at all, and speaks to him quite haughtily and condescendingly. I think if you are just there being strong and centered and they know they can fall back on you, you’re doing right by them. We can’t protect them from everything and maybe they will fare a little better as a result of having faced this type of personality at a younger age and will recognize it for what it is and not be seduced by it.


My oldest son (who is 14) admitted to me today that he has caught his father lying to him, also telling me that he suspects that his father took some money from his wallet. I sat and talked to my son – he already knows that I strongly believe that his dad is a spath. This whole disorder sucks. Anyway, I’ve decided that I am going to go ahead and get therapy for my son, with a therapist who KNOWS about psychopathy. I ache for my child, the fact that his father is a low-life, would now steal from his own child. Should I say anything to the h-spath or be quiet about it? I think that my son is slowly realizing that there just might be something truly wrong with his father, that I’m not so off the wall about the man. I just don’t want my son (or my other children) to experience the same crap that I’ve experienced, tremendous disappointment with the spath, his behaviors (actions) sometimes being extreemly hurtful. My son will now have to wrap his head around the fact that his dad lies, steals, etc. (doing this to his own family members). The revelations that come our way are unbearable and unpleasant. I am going to think about what else I can say to my son, trying to help him through this point in time. I could clobber the h-spath for being such a jerk, a creep. No one is immune from his rottenness, having realized this today. What a let-down for my son, an unfortunate eye-opener for him. I want to be able to protect my children from some of the truths about their father, but in the end I can’t totally do so.

Ox Drover

Dear Bluejay,

Since you asked for an opinion, I’ll give you one.

What good will it do to confront the spathole about the theft? None, you know that and it will just cause a scene. He is NOT going to admit it, even if you had caught him with the kid’s wallet in his hand.

DONT’ TRY TO PROTECT YOUR KID FROM THE TRUTH—but let him learn it “naturally” by HIM SEEING what is going on. Just MHO but I think your son is ENTITLED TO LEARN THIS FOR HIMSELF, the same way we did. Now, I don’t mean stand by and watch your X pull a gun on the kid and not interfere but let your son learn it, even the pain of learning it is a good thing because he needs to LEARN THE TRUTH. Remember “the truth will set you free, but first it will pith you off”

The BEST lessons we learn are those that cost us some pain to learn. Just like child birth, when your daughter is having her baby you’d like to take the pain for her, but she has to go through it herself, so does your son in this instance.

I would talk to him, and say to him “You know, son, I am pretty aware of how bad it hurts when someone you love and want to love you back does something to you, like taking your money. That has got to hurt. When people lie to us it is that they are saying to us, I don’t care about your feelings so I will lie to you.”

And so on, just VALIDATE his feelings and his impressions. You wont’ have to do anything else. I know it won’t be painless for him, but he will come to his own conclusions and won’t feel that you have alienated him against his father. It’s like “young love” the more you throw cold water on it, thge crisper and fresher it gets” (((Hugs))))



My son has witnessed things in the past that my h-spath has brought on himself (unnecessary baloney), affecting us all. I appreciate the response to my post. Tomorrow, I will approach my son, and say what you advise. I really feel for my son, wanting him to know that I am there for him, knowing the pain that he is experiencing, hoping that I can communicate effectively to him, a concern of mine. I think that he is opening up to the truth about his dad, that the man lacks a strong sense of right and wrong. It really is upsetting – his newest victim is his own son.


bluejay – he is with YOU and that is a very good thing.



Thank you for your encouraging words. I will do what I can for my son, feeling very badly that he has to have such an awful life lesson at his age. We have been through hell as a family and I’m doing what I can to build a family as a single mom, but his father constantly creates drama, never allowing us to be completely peaceful. I’d like to sell our house and get far, far away from the spath, raising my kids without his influence, but unfortunately that won’t happen because the spath wants to be a part of their lives, but not mine (of course).


bluejay – you care and love for your kids SHINES through. All we can truly ever do is talk and love. and you are capable of both. just let him know how much you want the best for him. to let kids know that it pains you that it is so hard for them is worth a whole lot.


bluejay – just a thought before the mice come to haul my butt to bed…
sometimes if we give the spaths ‘what they want’, they no longer want it. i wonder if you included him more and more in their lives, would he go away?



Tis true – “all we can truly ever do is talk and love.” I am capable of talking and loving, reaching my children. Peace to you.



He seems to enjoy being a dad, having told me that he doesn’t want to be like his own father (an unattentive, distant father who abused his kids when they were preschoolers and school-aged children, whipping them with a belt). His oldest sister was forced to raise her siblings (being the mother to them plus their own mother, being a totally dysfunctional family). My sister-in-law was the saving grace to some of her siblings, bonding with them, but somehow my h-spath didn’t bond (that’s my take on the upbringing). The h-spath likes taking the kids camping, to athletic events, etc., spending time with them. This latest development was a surprise to me, needing to think about how to handle it. There’s always something to contend with, getting sick and tired of the unnecessary crap that he pulls, having to pick up the pieces after another bomb explodes. If we didn’t have the h-spath around (obviously), we could definitely live more peacefully, but I can’t imagine him wanting to not have the kids in his life.

super chic

bluejay, you sound like a wonderful mother, I think your children will need your wisdom to guide them through this, of course… keeping in mind how much they love their father… I think it is important that they know when things go wrong that it’s not THEIR fault, I think children have a tendency to blame themselves when bad things happen because they don’t have the experience or knowledge we do. I wish upon a little star that my mother had helped me out more with life/people lessons. I was always trying to be good so my parents would not be mad at me… or trying to be nice so I would have friends, etc etc. For some reason I always blamed myself or took on the responsibility for other people’s feelings.



loving and talking…yep! it feels so empowering to walk around choosing to love over all the other options, and it comes back, it really does. …the universe knows and joins up with you, smoothing the way….I’m getting strong impulses to forgive the P…y’know in a ‘let go’ kind of way…can’t leave him in hate, hate is like velcro…I will ‘aspire’ to let him go…but hating him is still very enjoyable.. probably because he is so out of my life now, so far away and fading….hate keeps him alive….let go…. letting go…then it’s sad….then it may be over? I pray for it to be over…outside and in…


It’s always so amazing to read peoples’ comments and to see my and my childrens’ stories in other peoples’ stories. I so relate to the emotional anguish loving moms or dads experience when the other ex s’path parent plays head games with the children – etc. My 3 grew up under this.

I separated from my now ex s’path husband 14 years ago and I am still a warrior – still fighting to protect my children and myself from Him. I’ve had to initiate 5 post divorce law actions. I’ve been stalked and harrassed (still!) – and to the normal mind there is no understanding the mind of the s’path.
But I am happy to report that my kids and I are working through this. My kids who are now 24, 21 and 15 are a lot smarter about people and as a family we have learned to CULTIVATE the positive. (It doesn’t come naturally when you feel you are under siege.)

One of the most important things that my friends and therapist have helped me to see: Worrying and projecting about what “He” or “She” will do next is an obsession. We do this to survive, but it’s so important to work to keep perspective. I did lose perspective a while back and felt suicidal – but was lucky enough to have friends and resources to help me get back to the joyful person I want to be.

I continually work to find the positive in any situation, and the positive frequently finds me. For anyone with children who is experiencing the anguish that goes with s’path activities: Stay positive, take good care of yourself, and don’t lose heart: It gets better and better!


What is truth? there are many truths and OUR personal truth is based on personal experience. so, state categorically that S.P. can not hold high offices in my view is a disservice to this sites readers and to the public at large in my view, my home province is blessed :} with many S.P. and yes they are in all walks of life and some of them stay well hidden at least in the 25 years I have lived here, I know of one that has held his station in his community for over 50 years and he still has not been exposed, yes he has damaged many lives but still he remains as a patriarchs and is viewed as first class. I listen to DR Robert Hare many years ago and he admitted that at times he has difficulty spotting S.P. Like a good Indian tracker we need to look beyond the obvious, by doing so we will see more than the obvious. and by the way I have had to deal with S.P. for over 50 years in my family and it has been only the last 25 years that I understood it. and like a good Indian tracker I see signs of S.P. every where. personally I call where I live suicide hill as we have had 5 suicides one murder-suicide and a couple attempts of suicides. I view these personalities as victims as much as there victims, We need to keep on guard as well as keep our distance from such personalities.



so natural and understandable to be worried about what he will do next and the impact he will have, you will not find the spath worrying about his impact…althought they do have a kind of obsessiveness about turning out every possible opportunity for maximum exploitation value…I’ve heard it called a “feeding frenzy” here, and it’s in my flashbacks..the P would drool at the prospect of social events where he would be centre stage and working an angle…various angles..all heartless and without a care in the world

Ox Drover

Dear Firebird and Caprine,

You both have made some very interesting comments. Glad you are here and posting. Hang around a while and continue posting, the diversity of the posts here is what makes this the best site for healing. Welcome!


shabbychic, bulletproof, and firebird –

What my son told me was that after he discovered that $20.00 was missing from his wallet, he asked his dad about it, whether he took it, but his father denied doing so. I’ve had SO MANY spath experiences (more than I can count) that I’m becoming more aware about how not to react, (getting upset and hysterical) when another bomb drops. I can encourage my son to not let the experience eat at him, explaining that what his dad did was WRONG (taking his money without having permission to do so). What can he learn from this experience? Now that he knows what his father is capable of, he needs to protect himself, keeping his money tucked away, not letting his father know that he has any. It’s SAD that my son has to be pro-active in this way, but he’s now learning what kind of people are walking this planet, good and bad alike. He can gain some valuable insights from this situation. I’ve also thought that I can gently teach my son about sociopathy, giving him relevant information a little bit at at a time. Having myself been distraught in the past (over h-spath’s antics), I want my son to not get to that point, detaching from the experience, learning from it, and not allowing it to crush him, taking it very personally. Can this be taught? Can I encourage my son to step back from the experience, look at it objectively, and learn from it, trying not to let his emotions be affected?

Ox Drover

Dear Bluejay,

to answer your question—YES, ABSOLUTELY!!!!! This is information EVERY teen needs to learn and yes, sometimes it is a painful lesson, but one none-the-less very much needed. Think of how much it will benefit him as a young adult in picking a mate, picking friends, etc.

Yep, better to learn it as a teenager than the way we learned it. The tuition is less and the lesson will stick and benefit him throughout life!



getting the hair standing up on back of neck feeling after reading your post. So scary that sociopaths live amongst us so successfully, causing untold misery. You say:

“like a good Indian tracker I see signs of S.P. every where”

So do I…. so much so….I’m going to track honest human beings instead and focus on how to recognise a normal human being…I keep saying Human because so many people behave other than human…surpressing feelings, being ‘nice’ all the time,in all shades of denial…these are red flags…I do not want these people around me yet they are there…perhaps those people that killed themselves were driven to it by inhuman people? you would have to be in some state of mind to kill yourself….what we still don’t know…the mind boggles….if I were surrounded by spaths I might kill myself…I would certainly be disturbed and in pain.



Thanks for the input. I have chores to work on at home. I still haven’t talked to my son – he’s out getting school supplies. I’ve been thinking about this matter for a while (since yesterday). Anyway, I’ll talk to him soon. I know that it has to be disturbing to him. Take care.

Ox Drover

Dear Bulletproof,

Your comment about suicide made me think of some interesting statistics I read the other day about the women of
Afganastan and how high the suicide rate is, and one of the most used methods is setting themselves afire after pouring gasoline on themselves.

For all practical purposes many of these women are virtual slaves, and the young woman who came to the US last week to have surgery to replace and repair the gaping hole where her nose used to be is a prime example. She and her sister were given as “wives” to another family to PAY A DEBT owed by her family. The Taliban fighter who married her went off to fight and left her and h er sister with his family who hated them and used them like slaves. She ran away and when she was caught, her husband came back and cut off her ears and nose. She escaped again and found sanctuary and was brought to the US for surgical repair.

I can’t even imagine a SOCIETY and a CULTURE that doesn’t see women as anything but objects, or where “honor killing” is OK, or where women and even men at times are stoned to death. If nothing else, we can ADD that BLESSING to our list of blessings that besides having clean water, we are not dehumanized entirely by our society and culture as nothing but possessions.


Yes Oxy I count my blessings, it’s beyond my understanding, I simply can’t comprehend the inhumanity that seems rampant in that part of the world…I try and imagine my community..burying me up to my waist in the ground and hurling rocks at me till I bled to death…what must it feel like….I go into shock just thinking about that, yet how many women died that way?

I thank GOD I can sit with my animals in peace. I can love who I want, I can feed myself, clothe myself, drive a car, work in the community and feel valued and independent. I can have as many lovers as I want (bet you I’d have 3 if it were forbidden, as it happens I have none because they are 3 a penny and not very good quality!! but I am allowed the dignity to choose that for myself)

There are whole days this summer where I just enjoyed watching the light change, or walking in nature, having a chat with my neighbours or visiting my ageing parents. Something in me REALLY appreciates peace time. Serenity. The days rolling past in blissful succession. My beloved little home, my cats, my choices, my cooking, my drinking (jayzas that has to be nipped in the bud)
running water, my air purifier for god’s sake!! my television, MY LIFE…I LOVE my life just as it is…it’s so perfect when I let go of compairing myself to what amounts to tabloid celebrities…who are they anyway!!

So Oxy for today I’m listening to Mary Chapin Carpenter and chatting to you…hey it does not get much better than that!


The spath also stole from my kids.

One time eldest Jr was working with us……spath would kick us all out of the ladies house, so he could talk to her alone…a.t the end of the work period. He’d come out and dole out tips she gave us all…(HE made himself in charge).
Everyone talked about how much spath doled out… each person….he gave some peeps $50 and Jr $10.00.
On the way home in the car, Jr called Bullshit on spath father.
Spath said…..your working for me….you should be grateful for whatever I give you.

From that point forward, I NEVER let the spath be alone with this lady at the end of the shift……because she always tipped us…….she started handing ME the money…….and i’d put it in my bra immediately….and she’d laugh.
(she didn’t know why).
Spath hated that I wouldn’t go….finish up, load the car or whatever order he dished out to get me away from this woman, so he could steal our staffs money.
I wouldn’t BUDGE!!!

SO… forward to ‘after’ spath days…….we all (minus spath) still worked for this lady……and my staff would say…..dang, she sure upped her tipping this year!!!!!

Jr. caught on to spaths stealing money from him……and figured it out on his own……

Last week he was at his new job on the beach renting boats and his boss came up and handed him and another guy $5.00 tip. Apparantly he received $100 tip from someone and this was how he split it up……..he get’s $90 and the two others get $5.00.
The guy told jr that the boss is soooooo cheap……and Jr relayed to me later…….my boss does the same thing as SPATH!!!!
I’ve seen this before……
So… he ‘places’ himself in a more ‘accountable’ postion when recieiving tips…..just as I did with the spath.

My kids all are aware of spathlyness……I’ve left books around, printouts on my desk….and other literature to enlighten them. They have even done their own ressearch and brought me information to enlighten me. Behaviors they’ve recognized in their own father…….
They’ve made their own choices NOT to be in any sort of contact with spath. He’s a crook, a cheat, a liar and a manipulator.
Hes even accused them of things he’s did to others… kid he told the police, that that jr punched him!!!! This kid was devastated……..and spath told this story around town……kids would come up to jr saying ….hey dude, why’d you punch your dad?????
This is what spath did to explain the broken finger jr had after spath kicked in our front door and jr was on the other side of it……..He couldn’t tell peeps the real story… a broken finger ‘could’ have occured during a punch to your dads face????!?!? CRAZY!!!
It took jr off balance……but when he regained the balance….HE SAW IT FOR HIMSELF!!!! HE LIVED IT! HE KNEW SOMETHING WAS REALLY WRONG!!!!!

Just talk to your kids honestly and openly…..and let them know you believe in them!
Don’t ever compensate for the spath…….(like give him the money back)…..because it negates the damage the spath does to the kids…….
$20.00 is an EASY eye opener!!!!!

Good luck… sucks our kids have to learn these lessons…..!!!

Ox Drover

Dear Bluejay,

Yea, Bullet proof, it is unbelievable for US to realize that a good portion of the world lives in 7th century mentality about the status of women. I spent enough time in Muslim countries in Africa and North Africa that even though AT THE TIME I WAS THERE I didn’t realize the depth of the “7th century mentality” I can still look back on what I saw then and see the things I missed then because of my own youth and lack of experience.

I agree with EB, Bluejay let your son feel the loss of the money because if you give him the money to make it up, he won’t feel the loss that will give him the message.


Wow Oxy…just reading about the “inhumanity” on this earth is appalling! I am in my early fifties, raising three teenage girls…and I am living with an “attitude of gratitude” daily…that we live in a “civil” world here…despite the corruption and politics of our country….we do have freedom.
I am instilling into my girls…how important it is to be able to screen people who are deceptive. Being around the wrong “influences” and “evil” people will only bring you down and complicate your life. They see how I’ve struggled to raise them alone with no help from their bio dad, all because I made a poor CHOICE in who I got involved with. I ignored the red flags and one poor decision affected my entire life journey.
I have been meeting up with women from a domestic violence group I am involved in. Every one of them have struggled because they got involved with the “wrong” man. And every one of them saw the signs and gave them the benefit of the doubt.
People tell you who they are if you look closely enough. I really believe that the public school systems need to implement programs for “socialization” and teach our children at a very young age, to spot “troubled” people…in school, on the job, amoungst their peers. If we teach them young, they won’t make the same mistakes as so many of us did.

I also teach them to be happy and content with what we have..our health, a safe home, and each other. When they see the paperwork I have to do to just save our home, etc…I teach them how to live a happy “simple” life….and it all starts with who we bring into it…or who we stay away from.

I am also teaching them to find happiness “within”….by finding hobbies and interests to learn and study…things that make them feel good. When we look for validation, approval or love from “out there”….it never works. “Find your passion in life and run with it” is my motto. Take care of your body and mind…and all good will come.

My oldest is 16 and she is a vegan. She cooks the best meals…all veggies and soy and tempeh and tofu and rice. She is transforming the rest of us to cut out foods that contaminate our bodies! She plays piano hours each day, and has screened out some “friends” who she realized are negative and not peaceful. She is on the right track.

Anyway….my mission is to help three lives (my 3 girls) to have more peaceful and productive lives than I’ve had. Learning to focus on positive things and take care of themselves is key.

Ox Drover

Dear Tobehappy,

I bet you succeed in this effort, sounds like you are doing a great job with your girls. A loving parent is a wonderful thing for any person to have, and one who teaches them about the CHOICES we make each day and how those choices can have consequences for decades of our lives, is raising their children to succeed in this life in the best possible way, to listen to their guts and to follow their dreams and to live simply and happily, looking for happiiness within.




your 16 year old sounds wonderful…a vegan, such a considerate, healthy way of life…mmmmh that food sounds great….tofu…yum….and to be confident enough in herself to screen out negative friends, that is great…I think of me at 16….ooh I’d rather not…wish I had a mother like you…I wouldn’t care what mistakes she made in the past

Twice Betrayed

I received Donna’s book and have enjoyed reading it!!!!

Ok, need advice, please! Seems I have been targeted again by a P, a very productive P, which is why I am posting here. Let me set the scene and you all, please tell me what you think! You know, I still don’t trust myself in this area after being married to two P’s.

I met this P thru my professional ties. He’s pretty known, as he is in a profession that brings him in the public arena. He’s VERY handsome! Smart, funny, witty, moving fast and seems to be stuck on me. The more I avoid him, the more he seeks me out. RED flag, right? I reallllllly like him, but there’s that gut feeling that something is wrong.
1. He flatters me greatly with lavish praise.
2. ONLY talks about himself, what he wants, believes, needs etc.
3. Past relationships all disasters and totally blames the woman in each case.
4. Sends messages and then disappears….
5. When he feels me running from him, watches for me and gives me some ‘verbal bones’.
6. WAY too handsome!!!! Masculine, square jaw, piercing eyes etc. This guy is like a 12+ on a scale of 10 look wise.
7.Many females chasing him, why focus on me? Seems I ‘have something’ that attracts him.
8. Handsome, talented, smart etc as he is, seems lonely yet has many friends.

I should say, when talking to him, I do all the listening and say very little….I can’t, it would be interrupting to say something! Outgoing only. Wears on my nerves, yet no way to get loose from him, he uses politeness to keep me in a positive position.

Thanks for all your help!

Ox Drover

Dear TB,


RUN!!!! RUN!!!! Run TB, RUN!!!!!

If nothing else he is the purrrrrrfect example of a narcissistic arsehole!

You are wonderful, and you are beautiful and deserve praise, but NOT LIKE THIS—– so RUN BAMBI RUN!!!!! LOL

Ox Drover

ps TB: “politeness to keep me” **POLITELY*** TELL HIM THAT YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED.


He sounds completely red flag and utterly irresistable!

here is the conflict within ME just from reading your post, I can only imagine what you are going through!!!

My sick twisted romance shadow wants to “play”(3 elements have me tantalised) so I have to accept…the Ego in me has been triggered…

1 He is drop dead gorgeous ( I really like gorgeous looking men)

2 He only has eyes for me (because He really sees me and is attracted to my soul)

3 Other women would give their right arm for him, but I have him!
(How GOOD I’m going to look infront of all my friends and family)

4 He is soooo honest (because he is telling me how beautiful I really am)

okay…now you have to see what has YOU hooked and about to be landed like a trout

the lavish flattery……in between talking about himself..and maybe all those other women were below standard and he wants THE BEST (which of course is me)

sends messages an then disappears (what can I say He is a busy guy with lots going on because he is so dynamic and cool)

so he tugs the line in a tantalising cat and mouse foreplay

piercing eyes….(oooh I’m mesmerised, hypnotised, brain washed)

He wants me…I must be amazing!

all his friends even though he is still lonely (not anymore I am the answer to his dreams)

Oxy!!!! we are going to need a big mother of a skillet over here quick

kim frederick

Hi, TB. Where ya been?

The fact that he does all the talking and it’s all me, me, me, and the fact that you feel there is something wrong, and he gets on your nerves, tells me at best he’s a N. The fact that he is most interested in you when you are trying to avoid him, tells me he is all about winning and control. Ego, ego, ego.

The fact that he’s incredibly good-looking and flatters you ,tells me YOU ARE IN DANGER OF GETTING IN OVER YOUR HEAD, so please, please, please, listen to your gut and get away from him. You can’t afford to waiver, you have to be stead-fast and allow no room for mixed messages to leak in. What I mean by that is he must be certain that you don’t want him…he doesn’t stand a chance.

I’m already worried that he will continue to pursue you, even if you tell him NO.


I met a guy on a few months back. All he did was talk talk talk about HIM. Never asked me about ME! GIANT TURNOFF!!! UGH!!!
Found out that he is a leach…parasite…lives off of women…owes lots of money to IRS….omg….he is a big liar and phoney. Caught him in a few.
Dumped him after first date. He still calls me. UGH!
Don’t be desparate and fooled by his charm!!



I am not perfect and my girls are at the age where they are “immitating” me and poking fun at me….and they make me laugh! lol…But, I just want them to be tough warriors out in this big bad world….to be ‘bulletproof’…something I wasn’t. I was too insecure to stand up for myself and wanted approval from people. (NO more of that!)
I teach them Louise Hay’s stuff….saying “I love you” in the mirror daily!!! I want them to have confidence.

Ox Drover

Dear TB, so it apparently is a score of ZERO for you guy “friend”—I think everyone (and including you) have their RED FLAG detectors going off full blast! He just sounds so stereotypical P that it is almost funny. Wouldn’t it be great if someone that good looking and so on would be REAL but I think NOT this one. Oh, well, at least you didn’t get HOOKED BIG TIME and coming back here saying “Oh, guys, I got hooked again!” LOL

Twice Betrayed

Hey Gals:

Ok, got skillet and knocked head! Told him NO many times, he’s still after me. Friends on FB, now my daughter is after him, since he’s a looker. They are on their way to being FB friends! Will keep him tied to me and worm his way in. Daughter has her own P skills, no prob there. It’s just I don’t want any part of him. I am not hooked….too scared. But, the looks are seriously tempting! However, logic is overruling and I am safe there! Not like when I was twenty, thank God!
Hmmmm, how to disengage. He’s targeted me, apparently. May think I have money and want a boy toy. No on both counts.
Yikes, how to get loose!!!!!!!!!!

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