Donna Andersen has been a great friend to me and has done so much for victims of sociopaths. She deserves an award. The latest thing she did for me personally was to lend me her copy of The Psychopathic Mind by J. Reid Meloy. When I initially thought about reading the book it was more expensive than it is now; the price has come down quite a bit. That is good because I am going to have to buy Donna a new copy since I’ve marked up the entire book with notes about material to discuss here. My overall reaction to the book was negative to lukewarm until I got to page 318 (that I’ll discuss next week). After that page, I came to believe that on the whole this book is a great contribution to the field.
This week I want to use a quote from a judge to begin to discuss some of the myths regarding sociopaths. Here is the quote found on page 359:
“Well I tell you, the world is full of productive sociopaths. Some of them hold high public office. Some of them are lawyers. It could be that a couple of them are judges, and sociopathy by itself is not necessarily a dangerous condition. It can be productive. I think it was Clarence Darrow who commented on that”¦”
Let’s cover these numerous false assertions out of order.
- Sociopathy by itself is not necessarily a dangerous condition. This statement is completely, absolutely, categorically FALSE. Sociopathy/ASPD/psychopathy is always a dangerous condition. It is the most toxic personality poison and only a drop in a swimming pool of water will sicken an entire city. By definition sociopathy involves serious harm to other people and a track record of serious irresponsibility. If these characteristics are not present, the individual is not a sociopath!
- It can be productive. Sociopathy is never productive. Unless you measure productivity by ruined lives and the number of dead bodies left along the road. But where would the judge and possibly Clarence Darrow get the idea that sociopathy is productive? These people are confusing sociopathy (a disorder) with the power motive or dominance drive. It is this motive that is both productive in terms of leadership and harmful in terms of aggression. This motive is present in all humans to a certain degree. The aberrant unmitigated expression of the power motive that is seen in sociopathy is neither normal nor productive. Sociopaths may be productive in spite of disorder not because of disorder. See the next point.
- Some of them hold high public office. Some of them are lawyers. It could be that a couple of them are judges, Connecting this statement with describing sociopathy as a benign, productive condition is where the judge goes wrong. When sociopaths manage in spite of disorder to attain the power they crave, the results are disastrous for society.
- The world is full of productive sociopaths. This statement is partly true but this truth is not a reflection of points 1 and 2 above. As a group sociopaths are hands down losers. They die at early ages, get many more serious illnesses, and abuse substances. They usually end up losing everything and occupationally disabled. There is an appearance that the number of productive sociopaths reflects the disorder, simply because of the sheer number of sociopaths in the country. At any one point in time a given sociopath may be “successful” but that is only a snap shot. There may be a few who die before they fall but these are the extreme minority. Since there are so many sociopaths even this extreme minority may seem like a lot. If you consider the life histories of sociopaths two truths emerge. Sociopaths waste energy hurting people that could have gone into building rather than destroying. Also, the only reason they survive is that others help them. They may have power but they are by no means autonomous. This is the great irony of the disorder, antisocial individuals require a society to survive and operate!
- I am still trying to verify the origin of these false beliefs on the part of the legal profession stems from famous lawyer Clarence Darrow. If anyone can produce a quote, I would be grateful.
If you think about it, this judge is exemplifying a reasoning error due to lack of training applying research to practice. It is very difficult to apply group data to an individual because any one individual at any one point in time may not display all the characteristics of the group.
The message is clear. Judges and lawyers should stop rationalizing the leniency they extend to sociopaths. They should realize them for the dangerous, parasitic individuals they are. They should stop enabling them by forcing us to be with them. That “us” includes former spouses, children and society at large.
Whoever said this, comes across as being irresponsible,clueless and dangerously stupid. I would be very suspicious of someone in a position of power (A Judge) who would come out with such twaddle if he cared much about his reputation!
But I have heard similar attitudes from ordinary folk….like Hitler was a murdering bast8rd but he built a fantastic road system…He was a great this n that…
We can be VERY blind to evil….it’s astonishing…
Dear Shana,
Yea, we also bought a chest freezer, and I have TWO huge ones now! But what was so funny really about my husband wanting the side by side was he tried to make me think he wanted it for ME to “have the best” and I kept telling him, I “don’t want THE BEST, I want what I want” which BTW was only half the cost of what he wanted “FOR ME!— LOL So it was really really funny to see him try to figure out how to get the pizza inside it. I loved those “I told you so!” moments with him because he was an engineer! In fact, both my husbands were engineers and I’ve got some GREAT engineer stories to tell! LOL
This post really hits home for me, as my ex was what one would call a productive sociopath. He was a prolific earner and a consumate “dealmaker” reainmaker what have you. He was extraordianrily generous in terms of making sure his family “had it all”.
But then, (and it took many many years for me to see a clear pattern here) he would systematically destroy whatever it was we had built acquired, etc. Unravel everything and start over, new house new neighbourhood, new country, whatever. Each step of the way he became more controlling and – what I now know with a lot of research and hindsight, abusive, using his power over $$ as his tool.
Now that I have put it all together, there is no question that he was actively trying to break me down, with his gaslighting.
Here is the dilema. One of my sons has called him on his BS and has effectively gone NC. (without any coaching from me).
My other son still is in awe of his father’s abilities, and is trying to play fair and treat him like a normal person.
The ex has already played serious games with his head recently, and is using him and plans to use him for his own agenda, all the while making vast promises to him on all kinds of good things- when his next “deal” goes through.
This son has now moved back in with me and we are very close.
I have warned him and he knows I believe his father is a P, but all I can do is watch.
Wondering if anyone has any advice on how to stave of the train wreck that always occurs, when dealing with this creature. How can I help to protect my son from the mental abuse and pain that I am sure will follow his interaction with his father eventually?
Dear anitasee,
I wish I could print out a SURE FIRE way for you to protect your son. Unfortunately, I think there is none….your son WANTS his father to not be a psychopath so he is doing what we all did I think and that is to minimize the symptoms of the disorder. Your son is unfortunately, I think, in denial.
Remember the OJ jury? They ignored the evidence and used EMOTIONS to find OJ “not guilty.”
I understand it must be horrible to sit by and watch someone you love be used and abused by a psychopath and not “do” something, but I don’t think there is much else you CAN do except be there to pick up the pieces. Sometimes we have to learn the best lessons the HARD WAY. I know I did. I was warned several times about Ps in my life and I did not listen, NOW I LISTEN! (((Hugs)))) and God bless you and your sons!
anitasee- With my kids, I look for any and every opportunity to point out similar behaviors and outcomes in others that mimic what their father does. Try to get the point across without blasting him outright, though I have been known to do that as well. Sometimes, I just CAN’T hold my tongue. After my son told my daughter (his half-sister) of some of the things my ex did to him, she said, “He’s my dad and I love him, but I know he’s not a good man.” That’s not to say she doesn’t treat him with respect, and that she won’t defend him when she feels I am being unfair or unChristianlike, but she knows his character. I guess that has to be enough for me. My younger daughter would go NC if she could, she really has no use for him at all, and speaks to him quite haughtily and condescendingly. I think if you are just there being strong and centered and they know they can fall back on you, you’re doing right by them. We can’t protect them from everything and maybe they will fare a little better as a result of having faced this type of personality at a younger age and will recognize it for what it is and not be seduced by it.
My oldest son (who is 14) admitted to me today that he has caught his father lying to him, also telling me that he suspects that his father took some money from his wallet. I sat and talked to my son – he already knows that I strongly believe that his dad is a spath. This whole disorder sucks. Anyway, I’ve decided that I am going to go ahead and get therapy for my son, with a therapist who KNOWS about psychopathy. I ache for my child, the fact that his father is a low-life, would now steal from his own child. Should I say anything to the h-spath or be quiet about it? I think that my son is slowly realizing that there just might be something truly wrong with his father, that I’m not so off the wall about the man. I just don’t want my son (or my other children) to experience the same crap that I’ve experienced, tremendous disappointment with the spath, his behaviors (actions) sometimes being extreemly hurtful. My son will now have to wrap his head around the fact that his dad lies, steals, etc. (doing this to his own family members). The revelations that come our way are unbearable and unpleasant. I am going to think about what else I can say to my son, trying to help him through this point in time. I could clobber the h-spath for being such a jerk, a creep. No one is immune from his rottenness, having realized this today. What a let-down for my son, an unfortunate eye-opener for him. I want to be able to protect my children from some of the truths about their father, but in the end I can’t totally do so.
Dear Bluejay,
Since you asked for an opinion, I’ll give you one.
What good will it do to confront the spathole about the theft? None, you know that and it will just cause a scene. He is NOT going to admit it, even if you had caught him with the kid’s wallet in his hand.
DONT’ TRY TO PROTECT YOUR KID FROM THE TRUTH—but let him learn it “naturally” by HIM SEEING what is going on. Just MHO but I think your son is ENTITLED TO LEARN THIS FOR HIMSELF, the same way we did. Now, I don’t mean stand by and watch your X pull a gun on the kid and not interfere but let your son learn it, even the pain of learning it is a good thing because he needs to LEARN THE TRUTH. Remember “the truth will set you free, but first it will pith you off”
The BEST lessons we learn are those that cost us some pain to learn. Just like child birth, when your daughter is having her baby you’d like to take the pain for her, but she has to go through it herself, so does your son in this instance.
I would talk to him, and say to him “You know, son, I am pretty aware of how bad it hurts when someone you love and want to love you back does something to you, like taking your money. That has got to hurt. When people lie to us it is that they are saying to us, I don’t care about your feelings so I will lie to you.”
And so on, just VALIDATE his feelings and his impressions. You wont’ have to do anything else. I know it won’t be painless for him, but he will come to his own conclusions and won’t feel that you have alienated him against his father. It’s like “young love” the more you throw cold water on it, thge crisper and fresher it gets” (((Hugs))))
OxDrover,
My son has witnessed things in the past that my h-spath has brought on himself (unnecessary baloney), affecting us all. I appreciate the response to my post. Tomorrow, I will approach my son, and say what you advise. I really feel for my son, wanting him to know that I am there for him, knowing the pain that he is experiencing, hoping that I can communicate effectively to him, a concern of mine. I think that he is opening up to the truth about his dad, that the man lacks a strong sense of right and wrong. It really is upsetting – his newest victim is his own son.
bluejay – he is with YOU and that is a very good thing.
one_step_at_a_time,
Thank you for your encouraging words. I will do what I can for my son, feeling very badly that he has to have such an awful life lesson at his age. We have been through hell as a family and I’m doing what I can to build a family as a single mom, but his father constantly creates drama, never allowing us to be completely peaceful. I’d like to sell our house and get far, far away from the spath, raising my kids without his influence, but unfortunately that won’t happen because the spath wants to be a part of their lives, but not mine (of course).